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I've asked several top Platinum players about this question and there doesn't seem to be a consistent answer. When I asked Attero about this, Attero thought that Concussive Shells were more useful for Marauders and should be researched before stim. When I asked Gretorp about this, seeing that Gretorp is a top Terran player, he didn't have an opinion on which to research first either.
I've heard various opinions on this issue, including the following:
1) If you are building a marine/marauder group, researching Stim first makes more sense because marines benefit from it
2) Reseraching Concussive Shells first is better for attacking because you can kite (although IMO, you can also kite in your base on defense)
3) Research Stim against Zerg but research Concussive Shells against Protoss (somebody needs to explain this in detail)
Would like to hear the reasoning for both sides on this if you're rushing as Terran. Please explain your rationale, including types of unit composition that favor researching Stim over Concussive Shells, or Concussive Shells over Stim.
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If a mod could add a [Q] to the title as I can't edit the title anymore, that would be appreciated!
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It depends what you're preparing for. Concussive shells are cheaper and the research is much, much faster so if your focus is on something early game get concussive.
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i almost always get concussive shells first.
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Dunno if I agree with going concussive shells first vs toss. He will have an immortal out before it's done and you would rather use that to get faster stim or ghost. Unless you have both stim and EMP vs his first attack you need to pull 15ish scvs to survive assuming you FE and he 4gate robo immortal pushes you.
Then again. Don't FE, it's a freewin scenario for toss. There is no way on any map to defend an FE vs the 3 immortal push unless you have PF and if the toss scouts that he just expands to the gold mins. Been trying like 10 different scv cut builds to try and maintain the FE in this patch. Only the PF one worked. But obv not on Blistering Sands, Desert Oasis or Kulas Ravine as they can just enter your base where your PF isn't defending.
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I am not terran but it seems dependant on whatever you scout and/or which race you are playing against. Both are huge upgrades in any case. Although imo rushing for stim before you have medivacs never seems reasonable.
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stim first. its only 50/50 less and so much more useful.
cant really kite in large battles w/o stim anyways
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The impact of concussive shells was biggest in the super early game, and now unless you rush it you won't have it in that stage. Stim gives much better DPS and movement speed, it is better then CS in every respect. I'm willing to bet that A moving with stim is more effective than heavy microing with concussive shells. IMO CS seems like a situational upgrade now.
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if your going to do a fast expand i would get slow first, if not id say stim is better
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On April 10 2010 22:19 duckhunt wrote:
get 2 tech labs lol
That answer won't help any1
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I always research stim first because sometimes I may have to transition out of marauders into marines (for example, if they tech switch to mutalisks). I like to have both building at the same time so stim and slow finish at about the same time.
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I get stim first almost always. One of the few times I'll get Concussive Shells first is vs a reaper rush as it keeps him away from my scv, he can't escape unless right next to a cliff and it doesn't cost me 20 hp to kill the reaper before it gets to scv line when I don't have medivacs yet. Stim helps kill faster, move faster (micro). In a straight up even marauder vs marauder matchup stim will beat the guy who gets Concussive Shells.
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On April 10 2010 18:44 StarcraftMan wrote:3) Research Stim against Zerg but research Concussive Shells against Protoss (somebody needs to explain this in detail)
The reasoning for this is probably because of zerglings.
Against roaches and zealots, attack/move/attack with conc works well because it keeps them out of range and they have enough hp for the slow to have any effect.
Zerglings are a lot faster (especially on creep) and have very little hp each, which means one attack volley will usually kill them outright rather than hurting and slowing them, making the conc worthless.
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I go Stim first. seems more efficient if I am trying to timing push or w.e
If I am dodging then maybe the shell thing
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On April 10 2010 23:31 Darox wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2010 18:44 StarcraftMan wrote:3) Research Stim against Zerg but research Concussive Shells against Protoss (somebody needs to explain this in detail) The reasoning for this is probably because of zerglings. Against roaches and zealots, attack/move/attack with conc works well because it keeps them out of range and they have enough hp for the slow to have any effect. Zerglings are a lot faster (especially on creep) and have very little hp each, which means one attack volley will usually kill them outright rather than hurting and slowing them, making the conc worthless.
I find that kiting is easier to execute against Zealots without charge because they don't have range, whereas against Roaches, although marauders have longer range than Roaches, it's harder to kite and stay outside the Roaches' range.
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I almost always get stim first or both simultaneously. With stim you can still kite since you get a higher movement speed and your damage output is higher. I usually mix in more marines since the last patch too.
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Then because of possible builds your opponent can be going, I'm pretty sure there shouldn't be a single better one to choose first. Mass lings? Stim, mass Zealots? Concussive. When players start getting more diverse compositions (i.e. 2 zealots, 2 sentries, 1 stalker early push) then it becomes more complicated than that.
I would say that one of the reasons why Blizzard made Concussive missiles besides ability to early kite a lot, it would make the decision of which tech first something that Terran had to consider rather than "Ok, get stim, and then get concussive."
IMHO, it depends on how early a confrontation it is. Earlier it is, then that means less units, meaning that concussive shells help slow easily a large portion of the army (because there are so few units total....).
Stimming 7 units will barely help it compared to the hp loss. When you have enough units, the overlapping fire makes stim much, much better.
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i would say that if u see the toss pump zealots, concussive shells would be more useful as stim would just kill ur units faster. if u see stalkers/immortals go with the stim first and get EMP asap as u'll need it against the immortal.
it would depend on the scout but like some people i'm almost always getting concussive shells first because i like to slow the units down.
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concussive shells if you are defending since kiting stalls the enemy very well. Stim when attacking since it increases your DPS. When the enemy is retreating, even though it would be nice if they were slowed down, but you can just attack their buildings.
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Start stim first. It'd rather kite with stim and no concussive shells than concussive shells alone.
In reality, I'm almost always getting stim and shells at the same time due to the shells researching faster.
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Concussive shells first. Stim is best assisted with medivacs, and if you don't have the research timed with them, it makes more sense to go this route.
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Stim is easily the best choice, you get 50% more dps out of your units when it counts. I'd rather get nitro boost than concussive shells.
I dont think I upgraded shells lately at all.
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Yeah, it seems that stim is the better choice because it allows for more flexibility in defense in TvP or even punishing opponent T for 1rax FE.
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United States12238 Posts
On April 11 2010 03:02 DrainX wrote:
I almost always get stim first or both simultaneously. With stim you can still kite since you get a higher movement speed and your damage output is higher. I usually mix in more marines since the last patch too.
This is the right answer. Stim allows you to do what you would do already if you had Concussive Shells, but has the added benefit of doubling your rate of fire. Concussive Shells are mostly a bonus for kiting purposes and you're going to find them more useful for tagging retreating enemies.
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Stim > Conc anytime. You can change/kite units fine without conc if you got stim...
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On April 10 2010 21:29 kme wrote:
The impact of concussive shells was biggest in the super early game, and now unless you rush it you won't have it in that stage. Stim gives much better DPS and movement speed, it is better then CS in every respect. I'm willing to bet that A moving with stim is more effective than heavy microing with concussive shells. IMO CS seems like a situational upgrade now.
I think it pays itself back very quickly so you should always get it when using marauders.
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Short answer I get both vs toss, and typically just stim vs terran zerg. If i had to choose then just one then stim. You can still kite with stim just not as frequently. The massive plus dmg rate is too hard to pass up. If im going to have two raxes pumping out marauders I might as well get both technically I hit stim first but have concussive researched turning my first push outward. A neat trick is just starting the second gas for a few moments to rake in the extra gas before sending them back to minerals or transitioning up the tech tree if needed. If im going three rax pushes then I normally waltz out at about 5 mins real time and by the time i get the base both finishes within 2-3 seconds of eachother. about 30 seconds into the fight i know if its time to expand or grab my factories to siege tank expand.
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against zerg I will make stim first every time because it applies to marines aswell, and im much more marineheavy against zerg.
Against protoss I go CG first IF I do not plan on getting early medevacs in which case I will get stimpack first also, I am generally much more marauderheavy against protoss because zlots/stalkers/immortals punish marines so badly... not even funny:D
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I've been getting concussive shells first in TvZ (only match-up where this question really applies for me.) Getting stim takes a while and I like to push out before that.
Mainly because I usually don't try to kill the z, just apply pressure to force lings/spine/crawlers while I expand.
I never open bio in TvT anymore but in bio vs bio TvT stim is essential.
TvP I just lose, so no clue there.
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On April 11 2010 03:22 Kakisho wrote:
I would say that one of the reasons why Blizzard made Concussive missiles besides ability to early kite a lot, it would make the decision of which tech first something that Terran had to consider rather than "Ok, get stim, and then get concussive."
100% agreed.
Ever since the patch I've been seeing myself use comsat for the first times in months. It's not a bad way to spend the 230 minerals. If they're getting roaches/zealots: shells. If they're getting lings or I want to be super aggressive I go stim.
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Concussive shells vs roaches or zealots, stim against everything else. If it can be kited, get concussive shells, and even then, only get them if you plan to do some kind of attack or harassment where they will be useful.
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I say get concussive shells first, it is only 50/50 and it upgrades significantly faster than stim
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EPT
