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On July 30 2010 21:38 Kolu wrote:
I have a question about Ghost EMP micro. Do you put your ghosts in a control group and press E with them all selected to EMP units or do you split ghosts up 1 by 1 and EMP like that? Meaning does it hurt you to EMP an area with more than one ghost selected or is it ideal.
? EMP smartcasts- so you can group all of your ghosts together. In other words: every time you press E and clikc, you will get ONE emp, not however many ghosts you have. No downside to having multiple ghosts in 1 group IMO.
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That's a really good feature. I was worried I would have to split them all up into different control groups. Sorry for all the questions, I'm just trying hard to get good fast.
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On July 31 2010 01:00 Kolu wrote:
That's a really good feature. I was worried I would have to split them all up into different control groups. Sorry for all the questions, I'm just trying hard to get good fast.
That's what this thread is here for- GL.
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I have a question for you. It's got a bit of background to it..... I was a high plat/low diamond player in the last stretch of the beta.
I've been opening 10 rax 10 depot (at nearly the same time) 12 OC (I try to time the rax to be finished right when the SCV finishes, usually I'll have around 190 minerals) 13 gas (I make 1 marine out of the rax before getting my gas), and I scout with the depot-building SCV when it finishes. Because of the versatility of the opening, I've been doing it against all 3 races, with pretty decent success.
Generally, my plan is this:
If they attempt to expand, I try to put pressure on them. I can scout this pretty easily, usually. Because of the earlier rax and OC, I have a timing where I have an extra marine in my army compared to a more traditional depot-first build, and the push still comes a few seconds earlier (compared to the standard depot-first build). There are 4 main pushes, depending on how quickly their expansion is and what race I'm up against - 3 rax marine with stim, 2 rax marine/marauder with concussive shells, marine/hellion with stim or pre-ignitor, or marauder/hellion (with a couple of marines added in the mix).
If they are teching, I can usually counter it with the versatility of the 1/1/1 build (this transitions nicely into a 1/1/1 still), and I am still be able to expand at a comfortable point. When I then get to 140-160 supply (if no major engagement happens), I can usually push out to expand again (sometimes double-expanding), then get to 200/200 and go for the kill. Yet again, I've got a number of transitions prepared.
If they are going for any kind of rush, I've got an earlier rax and 1 extra marine, with the economy to easily make a bunker the second I spot the rush, so it's easy to defeat, and from that point I'm ahead, and will usually try some kind of counter-push just to force some defensive structures, and expanding to further my economic advantage. I kinda play this one by feel, rather than have a set plan, because a lot of it depends on when they decide to abandon their rush..... For instance, if they do a 9 rax reaper, I can get Marauders pumping pretty quickly to shut it down, and have a few Marines around to delay until the Marauders show up. Once I've shut down the initial push, I'll have a pretty significant economic advantage, and can attempt a counter-push with Marauders, which can often seal the deal right there.
What drew me to Terran was the versatility I saw in the VODs of people playing it before I got access to the Beta. I like the versatility. This 10 rax econ opening seems to be more versatile than a traditional depot-first build, at least from my personal experience.
Here's the question:
Why is it not used by higher-level players? I do realize that over the course of a 20+ minute game, it is worse economically..... But what you do in those first few minutes can be far more important.....
I'd like an outside view on it, especially by a higher-level player.
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Whew impervious that was a mouthful  . If it works for you, go with it. I'd guess its not seen at the higher levels because that one unit wont make the difference in the earlygame, and the power of your econ is generally what wins you the game, especially at high level play. 10 rax 10 depot IS a pretty standard opening, its the fastest rax you can have while still having something that looks like an econ game, but usually its more of an anti-cheeze build. It rocks any kind of cheeze, but its just generally not as good as getting those 2 extra SCVs before building your rax. Still, stick with it if you are comfortable with it.
I also picked terran because they seemed the most versatile, and 10rax will leave you with a good # of options for a follow up.
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I don't seem to think it's pretty standard - I can't find anything on Liquipedia or on TL that's anything like what I came up with..... Sure, there have been threads about 9 rax economic openings (comparing them to a 10 depot 12 rax opening), but nothing further than that.....
And, if it is standard, then nobody has written anything up about it.....
I feel like I'm missing something here, and it's not the ~150-300 minerals by the 8 minute mark.....
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Well I have never played StarCraft before, but I want to jump in headfirst. What builds should I learn first? Preferably something that will allow me to keep climbing the ladder. Are you supposed to learn a build for a matchup against each race, or just one for all three?
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I'm confused about TvZ. You talk about MnM pressure vs not opening roaches and marine helion pressure vs opening roaches. My problem is when I scout (usually at around 15 supply) they almost always have a spawning pool and no roaches but then when I pressure (or scan) they about 50% of the time have roaches. What build would you do against this?
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On August 02 2010 21:37 Kolu wrote:
I'm confused about TvZ. You talk about MnM pressure vs not opening roaches and marine helion pressure vs opening roaches. My problem is when I scout (usually at around 15 supply) they almost always have a spawning pool and no roaches but then when I pressure (or scan) they about 50% of the time have roaches. What build would you do against this?
Roaches has to be the easiest tier 1 to beat as terran if you go a heavy bio opening (multiple barracks). Marauders have a field day with roaches, especially once stim packs get done. Vs zerg, you should be willing to sac a SCV to scout the zergs army composition about 45 sec before you are ready to push (or scan them, but no garuntee you will see their army). The problem with going real heavy marauders early is that it leaves you very vulnerable to mutalisks, so if you do this MAKE SURE that he is going heavy roach and not just building a few while he waits for his spire to finish. It dosent cost him any gas to put that roach warren up.
a quick edit: Make sure to focus fire down the roaches- with concussive shells you dont need to worry about them microing the one your firing at away from you, it just wont have time to get very far if you have a decent marauder count.
@ Dellah:
This game has a pretty steep learning curve, so start with something simple; like a 3/4 barracks build with a maruader / marine push. This should let you work your way up the ladder- and you will learn what your build works against and loses to. Once you have a few dozen games under your belt, try a few different openings. You will lose alot when you experiment, but the experimenting will really open up your game. Check out fast factory hellion builds vs Z and P, the "1:1:1 (fac/port)" build for fast banshees Vs T and P, fast thor builds. Theres a million different openings you can do. Once you get to the higher levels of the game, early game wins become more and more rare, and the mid-lategame becomes much more important.
@ Impervious- I used the 10 rax build alot earlier on in the beta- and now i use it vs T(sometimes) on cheeze prone maps. Losing to reapers in the first 5 minutes is really lame, and that build, while it costs you a little econ, its an auto-win vs any reaper cheese. Really I would only reccomend going 10rax if you fear being cheesed.
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-double post-
gonna put this post to work!
Updated the OP- added some stuff to the TvZ section.
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@Zoltan
I was trying to follow the advice in all the "How to get good posts" and it always says to pick one great build and just practice the hell out of it. What are some great terran builds for SC2?
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The main thing is though that when I scout I don't know what he is going so I don't know whether to go heavy bio or to 1/1/1. Do you recommend starting heavy bio vs all Zerg until you know what he is doing and then adjust from there?
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@ Delleh: 3 Rax push i was talking about: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/3_Barracks_(vs._Zerg)
This build is fairly simple and straightforward, yet very strong vs zerg, and honestly will do OK vs toss too...(Instead of the +1 upgrade you can get a ghost academny and a ghost... ghosts are very strong vs toss). Vs terran if you are too slow you will run into a siege tank and lose. I think i outline how to play TvT pretty thoughrouly in the OP.
@ Kolu- Check that link above for good rax play vs zerg. If you want to open 1-1-1 vs zerg- i would do the fast hellions build (the parenthesis indicate approximate food count): The timing on the reactor usually works out so that you have enough time to finish building the 1 hellion and 2 marines at teh same time, then swap addons to get the 2nd and 3rd hellion out so you can go roast some drones.
10 depot
12 rax
15 oc
16 marine
17 marine
17 factory
(17) depot
(19) reactor on barracks
(21)hellion
(22) Bunker
(24)2 marines
addon-swap barraks + factory.
(28)2 hellions
(29+)pump marines.
(xx)Starport
OK: this will lead u into a problem: How do you defend the roach push.? Answer: SCV repairing a bunker u build somewhere in that BO. The follow-up to this varies based on how your hellion harass does, (if you kill alot of drones the game might be over right there). If they went roaches ur in good shape, the hellions are sooo much faster that with some good micro you should have no problem tearing up their drone lines. If they went speedlings- just poke around and dont get too close to those little buggers- they will surround and kill the hellions fast, especially on creep. Anyway.. back to the follow up: You can swap your factory with reactor and your new starport, and double build vikigns for a minute to harass his overlords. Really you never want to leave the zerg a minute to himself, always force him to be making combat units and not drones. With your factory toss a techlab on it and start makin tanks / thors depending on if hes got a spire or a hydra den going up.
Also : http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Reactor_Hellion_Expand_(vs._Zerg)
if u want to expo after the hellion harass .
Hope this helps.
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It did help a lot. I really like that fast hellion 1/1/1 although I had a lot of minerals left over. I think this was partially due to bad macro when attacking with hellions but I'll get used to it. You get a command center soon after the starport, right? And do you get a reactor on the rax to pump rines faster?
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On August 03 2010 03:36 Kolu wrote:
It did help a lot. I really like that fast hellion 1/1/1 although I had a lot of minerals left over. I think this was partially due to bad macro when attacking with hellions but I'll get used to it. You get a command center soon after the starport, right? And do you get a reactor on the rax to pump rines faster?
i almost never reactor on the rax unles my hellions tell me the zerg dosent have a baneling nest .
You can do your CC either before or after starport. I actually prefer to be super-agressive off of one base and instead of CC i drop down 2-3 more rax and do a marine/ marauder / hellion / medivac Tends to do well vs a zerg who's mineral lines just got torched. Its stylistic at that point- if you feel comfortable playing a longer game, go with the expansion. Personally I have so much trouble beating zergs at this point that if i do decent damage with my hellions i will definatly follow it up with a big all in.
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Just out of curiosity, how is a zerg even supposed to win once a terran gets this build somewhat well?
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On August 05 2010 06:57 Ja. wrote:
Just out of curiosity, how is a zerg even supposed to win once a terran gets this build somewhat well?
If your talking about the Fast hellion, its actually quite easy. First of all, if the terran only pushes with two hellions, its so easy to push it back by making a spine crawler. I almost never go Fast Hellion because I find going 1/1/1 and pushing out with my first hellion + 4 rines and an SCV to bunker does way more damage and even if the damage isn't very good, I can easily retreat and act as if nothing happened. Generally, Idras Gas first into spawning pool then FE is quite powerful kicking in zergling speed just when the harass gets rough.
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On August 05 2010 08:02 Phoenix_XY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 06:57 Ja. wrote:
Just out of curiosity, how is a zerg even supposed to win once a terran gets this build somewhat well? If your talking about the Fast hellion, its actually quite easy. First of all, if the terran only pushes with two hellions, its so easy to push it back by making a spine crawler. I almost never go Fast Hellion because I find going 1/1/1 and pushing out with my first hellion + 4 rines and an SCV to bunker does way more damage and even if the damage isn't very good, I can easily retreat and act as if nothing happened. Generally, Idras Gas first into spawning pool then FE is quite powerful kicking in zergling speed just when the harass gets rough.
The follow-up for a zerg putting down a crawler is make a medivac and drop 4 hellions in the back. Thats always get some good drone-roasting in.
Idra's build does stop the early hellion harass well enough, but has the same weaknes as most zerg fe- 3 rax reaper-marauder. (this build will be goin up in the OP soon- probably this weekend). This weekend should have a bunch of big updates to the OP- many of my personal replays will be going up- (i have been stockpiling as many good ones as i can...) and i hope to add a bunch of screenshots / pics to the OP as well. It is taking me some time to get all this stuff in order- but keep your eyes peeled .
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I've been thinking . . . how viable would a Thor n' Hellion push be against 15 Hatch or fast muta build after you harass with double hellions? Thors hard counter mutas, roaches and hydras. In contrast, Hellions hard counter zerglings and banelings and soft counter hydras. You could get the Pre-Ignitor upgrade off your Thor Factory and sprinke in a few marines/marauders from your barracks, just to bolster your forces.
That being said, an infestor/Broodlord combination would destroy this, so scouting is key. After your first thor I think it would be a worthwhile investment to hide a Ghost Academy somewhere, and queue a Ghost up as soon as you scout an Infestation Pit. Starport + switch with Factory for reactor is critical if you scout Hive going up. (For Vikings, of course.)
Maybe I'm just reiterating a Thor Shift, but it seems like a solid army composition. What do you guys think?
EDIT: @Zoltan, I just noticed one of your replays involve transitioning into Hellion/Thor from Reaper/Marauder, but the replay wont work for me! I would be extremely grateful if you described the build order to me!!!
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On August 06 2010 17:56 Blanke wrote:
I've been thinking . . . how viable would a Thor n' Hellion push be against 15 Hatch or fast muta build after you harass with double hellions? Thors hard counter mutas, roaches and hydras. In contrast, Hellions hard counter zerglings and banelings and soft counter hydras. You could get the Pre-Ignitor upgrade off your Thor Factory and sprinke in a few marines/marauders from your barracks, just to bolster your forces.
That being said, an infestor/Broodlord combination would destroy this, so scouting is key. After your first thor I think it would be a worthwhile investment to hide a Ghost Academy somewhere, and queue a Ghost up as soon as you scout an Infestation Pit. Starport + switch with Factory for reactor is critical if you scout Hive going up. (For Vikings, of course.)
Maybe I'm just reiterating a Thor Shift, but it seems like a solid army composition. What do you guys think?
EDIT: @Zoltan, I just noticed one of your replays involve transitioning into Hellion/Thor from Reaper/Marauder, but the replay wont work for me! I would be extremely grateful if you described the build order to me!!!
An early thor hellion push would be a good thing to test vs 15 hatch, it seems like it would work just fine. Especially after a hellion harass that went well.... Vs mutas same thing, just rush that first thor out or else you will lose your SCV line, too. In addition, I would toss up some turrets on the mineral line before you move out with the thor, mutalisks are fast enough that they could hit your SCV line and be back in time to fight off the attack.
About hellion thor: 3 things for this-
1st- Marauder Hellion Thor is one of the best unit combos (imo) TvZ- but it requires decent micro. Also, if they are heavy on mutas you will need marines "sprinkled" in, at least until you get your thor count up. You do need a decent maruader count for this mix, or else you will be run over by roaches. Thors, on their own, actually get raped (for cost) vs roaches. Hydras really do a # on thors too. You will need to micro your hellions well with this army or else fall to speedling / hydra.
This is a fairly gas-light build, so often I get ravens to back up my forces.
2nd- Ghost play vs zerg is something of a conundrum for me, I'd rather spend the gas on ravens.
Ravens really are rediculously good vs zerg in general. Prevents burrow shenanigans, seeker missile absoulutely destroys large #s of hydras, Auto-turrets can be used as a way to soak baneling hits and get in the way of ultralisks, and PDD drones have turned fights for me more times than I can count (always put them over your hellions!). In addition this lets you get your starport up which is useful for:
3rd- Vikings! You mention it at the end of your post- but i will often get 3-4 vikings early and then not build them again until i see a greater spire from the zerg. Its always a good idea to go overlord hunting with a few vikings early in the game, and minimalize the zerg's scouting ability.
The reaper-marauder to hellion-thor is a pretty terrible build lol- that replay is old, and while it works its just not as good as some of the more current builds we have available. Look up the 3 rax reaper-marauder build and try that on for size agaisnt zerg- its absolutely brutal. If you want to do the marauder hellion thor- open with a 1:1:1 and get your vikings early- then get 2nd factory. One factory should have a tech lab, one should have a reactor, and your rax should have a tech lab. Once you are on 2 bases get a tech lab for your starport, and 2 more barracks w. techlabs. That will make a production cycle 1 Thor, 2 Hellions, 3 Marauders and 1 Raven. This will give your army a great ratio for beating both hydra/roach or hydra/ling, and if they go muta/ling you can always build marines out of your barracks to help your thors.
One last note, that will handle the zerg until he gets on tier 3 with at least 3 bases... when you really need to step up your production in order to keep up. Ultralisks dont do well vs large marauder groups with thors backing them up. Broodlords get stopped by suprisingly small #s of vikings, so at the first sign of greater spire, swap your starport to something with a reactor and get pumping. It won't take long until you have enough vikigns to move out. If they have hydras/ corruptors/ mutas, just keep your vikings square over your army and they will be safe to pummel the broodlords from there. (Thors 10 AA range is useful here .
Whew! I had more to talk about there than i expected GL and i hope that helped.
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EPT
