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So I tested it out, because many people are saying "8 pylon or 9 pylon" at the moment and some are even suggesting 10 pylon. For test conditions I chose to build 1 pylon at the allocated time, build 18 probes with as much chrono boost as possible, and see how much minerals I'd have after that. The results were as follows:
9 pylon (the winner in my eyes):
Time: 3:01, 18 probes out with 660 minerals in the bank
8 pylon:
Time: 3:08, 18 probes out with 710 minerals in the bank, however
Time: 3:01, 17 probes out with 630 minerals in the bank
10 pylon:
Time: 3:09, 18 probes out with 715 minerals in the bank, however
Time: 3:01, 17 probes out with 620 minerals in the bank.
at 3:00 all nexus get one more chrono boost, which I didn't use in the test, so if I were to chrono the last probe, 9 pylon would have an extra chrono boost in store where 8 pylon and 10 pylon would've used theirs to the 18th probe.
Some people do say tho that if you 8 pylon, you get your first gateway out faster, so keep that in consideration. At least for games where you do not intend to make gateways with cheese-like precision you should go 9 pylon in my opinion.
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Agreed. I like 9 pylon 13 gate as my econ build. =]
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I've been using 9 pylon for weeks now, I MUCH prefer it to the prototypical 10-pylon.
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I pretty much always do 9 pylon. Still messing around with a 12 or 13 gateway. I guess it depends on what I want to do with the match up. But 9 pylon has pretty much been the only thing I ever do.
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In my experience 10 pylon allows an interesting 11 gate play, with 9 pylon I usually scout with the probe when it makes the pylon moving gateway to 13, but if I don't scout, 12 gateway seems more appropriate. In most match-ups it kinda matters if you get the gate on 12 or 13. Because the zealot doesn't matter so much and you mainly use your gateway only to get cybernetics core up. Faster gateway means faster warpgate tech or faster robotics. If all people were gentlemanly and wouldn't cheese, I'd scout earliest after 12 gate every game.
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Great info, thanks :D I did some testing myself with slightly different variables and goals. The numbers I recorded are back at home but the overall conclusion was that 8 pylon and 10 pylon gets the gateway (and subsequently all following tech) out the fastest, but are not as great for economy as it gets stretched too thin. This means that it becomes too rigid and are not conducive to the dynamic nature of the game.
Some things I considered when testing: One probe would be used to scout and is therefore not mining during this time. One probe may be used to keep track of enemy scout, attacking it as it moves around the base or just making sure there are no proxy pylons/bunkers going off; also not mining during this time. These facts mean that the 9pylon econ build is going to be the most solid to allow these necessary steps and get a respectable army going.
Things I haven't tested: Better to send probe to scout after pylon, or after gateway? Better to put probes on first assimilator as soon as it warps in, or keep them mining a few extra trips first?
Overall I think 9pylon 13gate is the best overall build for any matchup, unless you're really scared of getting 6pooled or reaper rushed in which case you could play it safe with a faster (at a cost) gateway...
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10 pylon 10 gate into chrono boosted zeas is strong against Z in 1x1 maps...
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For me the pylon at 9 is a must but I am still deciding 12 or 13 gate, although vs protoss I sometimes do 10 gate for safety anti cheese measures
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I always pylon at 9, I've heard about this being tested to see if it gives an economical advantage and I just dont think that PURPOSEFULLY (10 pylon) supply blocking mysef is a good idea.. I can see it viable for 10pylon/10gate but for anything else...no thanks. 9pylon/12gate ftw
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agreed, i gotta side with the 9pylon/13gate for most circumstances
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I pretty much always do 9 pylon 13 gate as it's the most economical build that is still good for most timings.
Ever since I got fast reaper cheesed, however, I've been going 10 pylon 11 gate for every PvT because that fast reaper cheese was just ridiculous/impossible to stop with my standard 9 pylon 13 gate.
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I am kinda new to the game, played about 30 matches total. I am wondering about the exact build order. Do you guys queue up your probes to 10 even when doing a 9 pylon or do you use your "first 100 minerals" at 100 to do the pylon and then queue the next probe when you got the next 50 minerals? I am currenlty queuing to 10 and I end up being supply blocked at 10 for about a second before the pylon finishes warping in.
I am also doing the gateway at 13 and I currently have a probe or two in queue at that time. So is it better to sacrifice some probe production time to get the money for those 2 first buildings faster?
Btw, my first post so hello everyone!
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On April 09 2010 03:17 RahTL wrote:
Great info, thanks :D I did some testing myself with slightly different variables and goals. The numbers I recorded are back at home but the overall conclusion was that 8 pylon and 10 pylon gets the gateway (and subsequently all following tech) out the fastest, but are not as great for economy as it gets stretched too thin. This means that it becomes too rigid and are not conducive to the dynamic nature of the game.
Some things I considered when testing: One probe would be used to scout and is therefore not mining during this time. One probe may be used to keep track of enemy scout, attacking it as it moves around the base or just making sure there are no proxy pylons/bunkers going off; also not mining during this time. These facts mean that the 9pylon econ build is going to be the most solid to allow these necessary steps and get a respectable army going.
Things I haven't tested: Better to send probe to scout after pylon, or after gateway? Better to put probes on first assimilator as soon as it warps in, or keep them mining a few extra trips first?
Overall I think 9pylon 13gate is the best overall build for any matchup, unless you're really scared of getting 6pooled or reaper rushed in which case you could play it safe with a faster (at a cost) gateway...
Both things that you haven't tested are obvious. In general...
- why does protoss need to keep a worker on the enemy scout? it will be obvious if it goes out of sight for too long, in which case you check, but otherwise unnecessary.
- "better" to scout at which timing depends on your build... if you need to adapt to certain openings, then scout earlier, if you have a relatively safe or dedicated build then you scout later for more economy.
- If you don't put probes on the assim right as it warps, then why not make it a few seconds later instead?
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On April 10 2010 05:46 Pokebunny wrote:
Both things that you haven't tested are obvious. In general...
- why does protoss need to keep a worker on the enemy scout? it will be obvious if it goes out of sight for too long, in which case you check, but otherwise unnecessary.
- "better" to scout at which timing depends on your build... if you need to adapt to certain openings, then scout earlier, if you have a relatively safe or dedicated build then you scout later for more economy.
- If you don't put probes on the assim right as it warps, then why not make it a few seconds later instead?
Well I feel they have more subtle importance than you might think. Of course I was speaking very generally, in the interest of raising questions for those who may not have thought about it. For me personally, I think scouting after the first pylon is important in at least vT and vZ as 1) you don't want to get locked out by Terran wall, and 2) you want to see what kind of opening Zerg is going, to avoid getting caught with your pants around your ankles by fast zerglings. Also, it depends on the map, obviously you can afford to scout a bit later on Steppes of War vs. Kulas Ravine. My point in raising the issue, however, was to question whether it is more worth it to get that early scouting in instead of the few mineral trips you'd lose by waiting a bit. The advantage may be small, but in competitive game play these things do matter.
As for keeping a probe on the enemy scout, this is a huge variable that really requires adaptation on a case by case basis. But you cannot test a build with a certain number of probes and their corresponding income and not consider the fact that you may need to pull a probe. Whether to attack a drone that's getting free hits on his probe-buddy, or to follow a probe into the corner of your base to see what its up to. Again the difference is very small but when dealing with a build like 8pylon, these factors are very important. Small reductions in mineral income can throw off the momentum of the entire build. Its not useful to say "8pylon build is superior. Unless you have to pull a probe to check the corner of your base."
And finally, that is a good question indeed, why not make it a few seconds later instead of holding off on mining it? Is one way better than the other? I'd argue having the assimilator warp in a few seconds earlier than you need it is more valuable than waiting, but maybe I'm wrong. They sound the same, but they most certainly are not.
Of course it's not helpful to announce that by the math a certain build is better when the reality is that small things like these affect their performance in practice. That is why we raise these questions and determine their relevance, rather than saying something is obvious when it may not be to everyone.
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EPT
