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United States24664 Posts
I'm still pretty noob as I learn with terran but one of the only things I've had trouble dealing worth is zerg attacks using a nydus. They can suddenly launch units into your base as long as their overlord has vision (hard to prevent entirely). The one good thing is that there is a short delay before the units are actually dropped into your main, but it's pretty easy to miss, or at least it is right now.
What are some ways of dealing with this? It seems like the moment I go to move out, a nydus worm is launched into my base and I have to run back and hope I can deal with it. Also, is it possible to kill the worm thingy before it launches units?
Here are two replays of me dealing with it... one with me losing to it and another with me winning. I think the only reason why I won was because the opponent was weaker:
http://rapidshare.com/files/353019742/Two_SC2_Replays.zip.html
The one from the earlier time is the loss, and the later one is the win.
To summarize: how do you deal with an opponent who you know is gonna try to nydus in various places around your base whenever you move out?
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nydus has to be on creep, as zerg position buildings to take up all available spots a nydus can be put and scout for overlord trying to get vision with your own overlords (chase off with queen)
as other races, just keep some AA units around, the overlord has to come in, drop creep, and then spawn the worm, just keep some AA around your base.
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United States24664 Posts
Can you damage the nydus worm during the 10 game seconds it builds?
Also, what do you mean the overlord has to drop creep. It doesn't just need vision to start building the worm?
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I play Protoss in SC1, so I'm pretty used to managing a Corsair fleet against Zerg. This translates pretty well into managing a Void Ray fleet, which should serve the purpose of purging the perimeter of Overlords whenever it's idle.
I don't know if the TvZ game flow in SC2 is amenable to a fairly early standing air fleet, but if it is, using that to kill Overlords preemptively is probably the safest counter. I have some more ideas but I don't want to give advice outside of my experience. Good luck with this problem.
EDIT: It has an ability that plops a wad of creep onto the map below it. The ability resolves very quickly so basically once it's over your base, the Zerg can essentially start building the Nydus immediately.
EDIT2: Well damn, no creep required? My bad.
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Nydus doesn't require creep at the moment
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On February 20 2010 07:06 Shiladie wrote:
nydus has to be on creep, as zerg position buildings to take up all available spots a nydus can be put and scout for overlord trying to get vision with your own overlords (chase off with queen)
as other races, just keep some AA units around, the overlord has to come in, drop creep, and then spawn the worm, just keep some AA around your base.
Are you sure they need to be on creep? I haven't played the game myself, but I could swear I saw a PvZ where the Zerg spawned Nydus Worms all over the Protoss base without laying any creep there first.
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Best thing I find is to attack it with all of your scvs and pray. I think a viking sniping ovys around your base is a good strategy too.
It's the roaches I have a harder time with. Atleast you can see and react to a nydus worm, roaches just "burrow" through space/water anything and pop up in your main -_-
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United States24664 Posts
According to pachi the overlord has to go over the spot it wants to drop creep on if it wants to put the nydus worm there... so I'm thinking turrets in the dark far corners of your base might make a good deterrent...
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Calgary25979 Posts
On February 20 2010 07:06 Shiladie wrote:
nydus has to be on creep, as zerg position buildings to take up all available spots a nydus can be put and scout for overlord trying to get vision with your own overlords (chase off with queen)
as other races, just keep some AA units around, the overlord has to come in, drop creep, and then spawn the worm, just keep some AA around your base.
pretty sure they dont! at blizzcon the overseer had an ability "place nydus worm exit"
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Calgary25979 Posts
On February 20 2010 07:53 micronesia wrote:
According to pachi the overlord has to go over the spot it wants to drop creep on if it wants to put the nydus worm there... so I'm thinking turrets in the dark far corners of your base might make a good deterrent...
also at blizzcon the overseer flew over 3 turrets and still had enough time to drop the nydus before it died.
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United States2822 Posts
The Nydus Network is a Lair tech building that costs 100 minerals and 100 gas. It has two abilities - Load/Unload and Place Nydus Exit.
The Nydus Network can load an infinite number of units, although it will only unload 10 at a time so you need to spam the Unload key if you have a large number of units in it.
A Nydus Exit can be placed anywhere you currently have vision of and takes a 3x3 space, the size of most buildings. After 10 game seconds, a Nydus Worm pops out and you can Unload any units you have in the Nydus Network one by one as long as there's space. In addition, the Nydus Worm also spawns a decent amount of creep near it in case you want to do fun stuff like place Creep Tumors or Spine Crawlers. I have not tested whether or not Spine Crawlers can go into a Nydus Network.
Another thing to note is that the Nydus Network IS two ways, and if someone attacks your base after you Nydus Worm them, you can send your units back into the Nydus Worm and have them exit out of your Nydus Network. Very useful.
So no, you do not need an Overseer to place a Nydus Exit - you just need vision provided by any unit, whether it be an Overlord, a Changeling, or a burrowed unit and a 3x3 unobstructed space.
Nydus Exits cost 100 minerals and 100 gas, and a single Nydus Network can produce an unlimited amount of them. The Nydus Exits all share the same storage, so you can load units into a Nydus Worm at one location and exit them at another location as well.
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Ahhh! I can't seem to defeat Nydus drops with T. I can never kill the damn thing, and due to my lack of SC2 experience I'm awful at predicting them. In general, by the time I deal with it I've lost too many workers. It's like they gave Zerg recall, haha.
My fear of nydus worms has brought me to make all my games against Z fairly quick 1-base pushes with marine/maurauder.
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On February 20 2010 07:06 Shiladie wrote:
nydus has to be on creep, as zerg position buildings to take up all available spots a nydus can be put and scout for overlord trying to get vision with your own overlords (chase off with queen)
as other races, just keep some AA units around, the overlord has to come in, drop creep, and then spawn the worm, just keep some AA around your base.
all of this is completely incorrect
you DO NOT need creep to place a nydas exit down. It just costs 100 minerals and 100 gas. you can place it anywhere you currently have vision
yes you can destroy the worm before it spits out anything, it has a 10 second build time before it can unload anything
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On February 20 2010 08:15 scintilliaSD wrote:
The Nydus Network can load an infinite number of units, although it will only unload 10 at a time so you need to spam the Unload key if you have a large number of units in it.
They actually unload 1 unit at a time, at a fairly fast rate (approx. 3-4 units unloaded per second). The Nydus Worm can place a rally point so that units automatically start moving once they pop out. (Yes, the rally point causes your units to automatically attack the first hostile they find.)
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I have to say that I am really enjoying dropping nydus worms into people's bases once I see their army walking off.
1 question in case someone knows: Do the units exit the nydus worm in any particular order? Does the 1st unit in exit first, etc?
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Can those who don't have the beta, or at the very least - don't know what they're talking about, can we have them not spread misinformation? I personally don't have the beta, so I will keep my mouth shut when it comes to strategy, but it's counterproductive when our (incorrect) assumptions are exclaimed all over the place.
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United States2822 Posts
On February 20 2010 13:41 bizold wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2010 08:15 scintilliaSD wrote:
The Nydus Network can load an infinite number of units, although it will only unload 10 at a time so you need to spam the Unload key if you have a large number of units in it.
They actually unload 1 unit at a time, at a fairly fast rate (approx. 3-4 units unloaded per second). The Nydus Worm can place a rally point so that units automatically start moving once they pop out. (Yes, the rally point causes your units to automatically attack the first hostile they find.)
I meant that units will only unload one "page" of 10 units at a time, at least I THINK that's the way it works. I seem to recall having to hit the 'D' key multiple times in order to unload my full Nydus Worm.
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On February 20 2010 15:02 pat965 wrote:
Can those who don't have the beta, or at the very least - don't know what they're talking about, can we have them not spread misinformation? I personally don't have the beta, so I will keep my mouth shut when it comes to strategy, but it's counterproductive when our (incorrect) assumptions are exclaimed all over the place.
No. I don't have the beta, and I can still contribute to discussions- you can see my contributions to this thread for example:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=112755¤tpage=3
As to Nydus worms... it's a complicated topic. Someone mentioned they're like the Zerg recall, and it's not too far from the truth. Move out with your army, and Zerg recalls all over your base; stay in your base, and Zerg expands.
Denying the Zerg vision of your base to prevent him from ever putting Nydus Worms down there isn't really a viable counter. Killing the Nydus Worms in the 10 seconds before they can start unloading units might be viable, though. Looking at the stats of the unit:
200 HP, armor value 1, Armored
the logical choices to kill it quickly at low cost seem to be stimmed Marines or stimmed Marauders. The Nydus Worm really isn't that much tougher than a Zealot, it's immobile, and you have 10 seconds to kill it. Since the Zerg can make multiple Nydus Worms all over your base, you'd need to spread some units all around its perimeter; leaving 6-8 Marines behind to allow your main army to move out sounds like a fair compromise, but it'd be nice to have some gameplay testing to see whether it actually works out or not.
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On February 20 2010 15:04 scintilliaSD wrote:
I meant that units will only unload one "page" of 10 units at a time, at least I THINK that's the way it works. I seem to recall having to hit the 'D' key multiple times in order to unload my full Nydus Worm.
Units that enter the Nydus Network after you initially use the Unload All ability (D key), will not be ordered to unload unless you press the D key again.
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Zurich15325 Posts
On February 20 2010 07:06 Shiladie wrote:
nydus has to be on creep, as zerg position buildings to take up all available spots a nydus can be put and scout for overlord trying to get vision with your own overlords (chase off with queen)
as other races, just keep some AA units around, the overlord has to come in, drop creep, and then spawn the worm, just keep some AA around your base.
Please read the strategy forum guidelines. If you have no idea what you are talking about, don't give advice.
There is no definite defense against nydus drops. As soon as Z has vision they can drop a nydus exit, which finishes in like 5 seconds.
You have a number of options as T:
- React fast. The worm is killed easily, and the units unload rather slowly. Make sure you target the exit and you should reduce damage greatly
- Starport builds to kill overlords. Open with a port and kill off the Overlords hovering around your base with a Viking. From a zerg perspective this is extremely annoying.
- Turrets. Nobody likes to build turrets, but you can at least protect your mineral line against overlords. Note however that this only works in the early midgame, with overlords speed they can just suicide an overlord to get vision.
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zatic: If you aggressively kill off enemy Overlords with Vikings, can't Zerg just sneak a burrowed roach into your base for vision?
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Zurich15325 Posts
Sure they could, but if they can do that they can also just sneak an entire roach army into your base. Detection shouldn’t be a problem during this stage of the game.
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Because nydus worm only requires lair, it seems really easy to rush it and just send a lot of lings through. Of course it's most effective when your opponent has left his/her base.
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Think of what Terrans needed to do to defend against arbiters.
As long as Nidus is far enough up the tech tree, this shouldn't be too hard to stop.
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On February 20 2010 17:15 mmp wrote:
Think of what Terrans needed to do to defend against arbiters.
As long as Nidus is far enough up the tech tree, this shouldn't be too hard to stop.
Lair tech.
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i've been playing mostly Z and i find that nydus worms are the hardest to place when you turret up your base. 3 turrets can effectively eliminate nydus at your mining area. Obviously this doesn't take care of everything but if you have some units around and react fast the nydus should not be that much of a threat.
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United States24664 Posts
On February 20 2010 17:15 mmp wrote:
Think of what Terrans needed to do to defend against arbiters.
As long as Nidus is far enough up the tech tree, this shouldn't be too hard to stop.
But remember that arbiters recalled to their position rather than to anywhere in their vision.... I really wish the worm had to be dropped below the overlord.
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Looks like vZ tends to degrade into "whack the mole" sessions.
Seems the problems terrans have with it is, that they aren't used to have to control overlord population and migration from SC1 so much.
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I don't understand why did they need to remove the requirement to have creep in order to cast Nydus worm..
Overlords can drop creep now anyway, it would make it easier to spot the worms as well as require few extra seconds to lay the creep, making it easier to prepare..
But I guess we have to wait and see
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Btw does this mean that in 2v2 with a z and a t in one team they can just scan + nydus in the middle of the opponent their base?
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On February 21 2010 23:02 VoriuM wrote:
Btw does this mean that in 2v2 with a z and a t in one team they can just scan + nydus in the middle of the opponent their base?
I'm SO gonna try that out. That sounds like too much faggotry to not do it. =D
wtb 2n2 allies btw. =P
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I do not currently have beta, but have been following streams and replays quite regularly.
There is another Terran option i don't see many players utilize and that would be the Sensor Tower, for 125/100 you get a tower that has fairly large radius which can easily give you the location of any Overlord outside the perimeter of your base. This would allow you to not have to guess and waste resources placing towers all around, or having Marines left to guard. Since any competent opponent will notice what side you have your defense on and go to the other, or simply have multiple nydus canals pop up on either side leaving your forces split and ensuring one gets through.
The Sensor Tower would allow for one or two Vikings to strike with precision and negate the need to patrol and spend as many resources on stopping the nydus canals once they are in your base.
This is all dependent on the range of the Sensor tower of course, i haven't been able to see it much yet. So currently i cant tell if it is sufficient to cover the whole base with one, or if several would be needed.
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re-upload the replays plz. I want to see how the nydus worms work (never been used against me yet!)
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On February 20 2010 07:29 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2010 07:06 Shiladie wrote:
nydus has to be on creep, as zerg position buildings to take up all available spots a nydus can be put and scout for overlord trying to get vision with your own overlords (chase off with queen)
as other races, just keep some AA units around, the overlord has to come in, drop creep, and then spawn the worm, just keep some AA around your base. Are you sure they need to be on creep? I haven't played the game myself, but I could swear I saw a PvZ where the Zerg spawned Nydus Worms all over the Protoss base without laying any creep there first.
Nydus no longer has to be on creep. You just need vision, plus a nydus network.
But yeah from what I've seen, Nydus = reaallllyy imbalanced... they either need to make nydus hive+ tech or add the creep requirement back.
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On February 22 2010 01:56 synapse wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2010 07:29 Zato-1 wrote:On February 20 2010 07:06 Shiladie wrote:
nydus has to be on creep, as zerg position buildings to take up all available spots a nydus can be put and scout for overlord trying to get vision with your own overlords (chase off with queen)
as other races, just keep some AA units around, the overlord has to come in, drop creep, and then spawn the worm, just keep some AA around your base. Are you sure they need to be on creep? I haven't played the game myself, but I could swear I saw a PvZ where the Zerg spawned Nydus Worms all over the Protoss base without laying any creep there first. Nydus no longer has to be on creep. You just need vision, plus a nydus network. But yeah from what I've seen, Nydus = reaallllyy imbalanced... they either need to make nydus hive+ tech or add the creep requirement back.
Imo it wouldnt be so extremly unbalanced if it wouldnt pop in like 3sek...
it should take WAY more time to build, at least double
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Netherlands19133 Posts
How about you just put a turret at each corner and leave 6 marines in your base... never had any problems with nydus except the first time it got used against me and I forgot about it since paris.
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Netherlands19133 Posts
But I agree that it should be under the lord at least and not anywhere within vision. Bit retarded. But then again, some marines on stim deflect any real attempt if the drop isnt supported by some mutas for example.
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United States24664 Posts
On February 22 2010 01:05 Beo-Wulf wrote:
The Sensor Tower would allow for one or two Vikings to strike with precision and negate the need to patrol and spend as many resources on stopping the nydus canals once they are in your base.
I actually started to do this... I haven't tested it to see if the range is good enough but it's certainly a good idea... sensor towers <3.
They can be a double edged sword though... especially if your opponent knows you have them and rely on them.... so easy to give fake intel and get the terran to run his army the wrong way :p
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On February 22 2010 02:27 micronesia wrote:
They can be a double edged sword though... especially if your opponent knows you have them and rely on them.... so easy to give fake intel and get the terran to run his army the wrong way :p
I could see that, but if it is in the center of your base, and you have kept them out of your base well enough, i imagine it would be hard for them to know you have it, and it could get them pissed off that they keep losing their "well" hid overlords  .
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United States24664 Posts
On February 22 2010 02:33 Beo-Wulf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 02:27 micronesia wrote:
They can be a double edged sword though... especially if your opponent knows you have them and rely on them.... so easy to give fake intel and get the terran to run his army the wrong way :p I could see that, but if it is in the center of your base, and you have kept them out of your base well enough, i imagine it would be hard for them to know you have it, and it could get them pissed off that they keep losing their "well" hid overlords .
Yeah I suppose... at least unless you are playing a friend who knows you do this :3
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According to sc2amory, the nydus worm takes 10 seconds to build. that's a really long time and you should be able to kill it or mount a proper response by then...
i can see some pretty interesting changeling-nydus play by zerg tho...
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United States24664 Posts
On February 22 2010 06:14 Ryuu314 wrote:
According to sc2amory, the nydus worm takes 10 seconds to build. that's a really long time and you should be able to kill it or mount a proper response by then...
i can see some pretty interesting changeling-nydus play by zerg tho...
It's difficult to notice it right away sometimes. For several seconds it's just cracking pavement where the worm is going to come out D:
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Do you think changes to the maps would prove effective against early nydus lings? Some of the mains have a TON of room and if terran walls i immediately get to lair > 20 or so lings > nydus in base > insta win. Its basically guaranteed to do damage if it gets lings out before t kills it, and investment in it is so small that not many scv kills make up for the cost. Blizzard has shown not to make the best maps, but i guess its too early to say.
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On February 22 2010 06:14 Ryuu314 wrote:
According to sc2amory, the nydus worm takes 10 seconds to build. that's a really long time and you should be able to kill it or mount a proper response by then...
i can see some pretty interesting changeling-nydus play by zerg tho...
I disagree here. 10 sec is NOT a long time. Most of the time your army is at the entrance of your natural ( if on 2 base, kinda standard for protoss ). If the nydus morph at the other end of your base, you will not have time to kill it. Worse, if you were moving out of your base, you migth not even be in time to save your nexus for the hydras.
The best way to deal with nydus is to hunt hidden overlords. But even so, there is some map where you cannot prevent overlords to come. ( desert oasis anyone ? )
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United States24664 Posts
I don't play desert oasis anymore. It's the only map I opt out of. It's such a ridiculous map hahaha
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On February 22 2010 02:57 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 02:33 Beo-Wulf wrote:On February 22 2010 02:27 micronesia wrote:
They can be a double edged sword though... especially if your opponent knows you have them and rely on them.... so easy to give fake intel and get the terran to run his army the wrong way :p I could see that, but if it is in the center of your base, and you have kept them out of your base well enough, i imagine it would be hard for them to know you have it, and it could get them pissed off that they keep losing their "well" hid overlords . Yeah I suppose... at least unless you are playing a friend who knows you do this :3 The radius of the sensor tower detection is visible on the zerg player's minimap so they always know when you build a sensor tower.
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nydus worm adds too much mobility on zerg's part for terran to deal with. even if terran starts to prepare defense, terran has to monitor all the nearby location.
all zerg needs to do is make the worm somewhere near the target site. zerg can transport all the army and instantly blitz the expo. zerg can then bring the army back to the base to even defend without a problem.
for example, if terran expands to another natural, terran needs to defend all the possible overlord sight around the entire terrain nearby, not just near the command center. since the number of zerg's units are not limited, this is equivalent of recalling several nukes.
and of course, terran has to not only monitor, but be able to take the worm down in 10 seconds from anywhere near the expansion.
edit) good thing there's no dark swarm...
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Terran can place down a couple of Sensor Towers which will easily cover their base so you can spot any worms popping up, and they're not too expensive (I think 125 min/100 gas, a bit more than a turret) so it's easily affordable at that point in the game - and a worthwhile investment if you're afraid of a Nydus attack.
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i know. it is not going to be hard for terran to fend off nydus rush to the main base.
but once terran starts to expand, it's going to be more difficult.
like i said, zerg can place the nydus somewhere near the target, since units can move... lings and banelings are pretty fast.
to counter this, terran has to monitor a lot more ground than a few sensor towers can cover, and if you build more towers, zerg can just not use the nydus worm.
like in lost temple, if terran's main base is at 9 and he expands to 6 o clock natural,
he has to not only monitor all the peripheries of the 6 o clock region, but be able to take down the nydus in 10 seconds.
so i think it'll be pretty damn hard to keep another natural expansion if your terran playing against zerg.
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The gas cost of Sensor Towers is slightly prohibitive. You're better off using turrets as they prevent muta harass. You could try keeping a few 3-4 reapers in your base for fast reaction on maps with big starting bases, or on smaller maps I use 5-6 marines near the mineral line and 2 tanks distributed to fill in the gaps. You'll have a tight enough defense that even if they do get in the tanks will do some serious damage with the help of any units recently produced, buying you time to return your army or if you're on the move your counter attack should be quite effective. Having 1 or 2 ravens with hunter seeker missile works wonders too, as the enemys units are clumped with no way to retreat.
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Maybe they should give a Notification like Nukes: "Wormsigns detected"
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On February 22 2010 09:52 Unentschieden wrote:
Maybe they should give a Notification like Nukes: "Wormsigns detected"
Dune reference?
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1 photon cannon will kill a nydus worm right after it manages to get 2 units out. So I assume, anything else can kill it pretty fast too. The other thing I would point out is that psionic storm works great on it because the units are either grouped around it or running to the rally point it has set up. Either way, you can predict where the units will be and cook them (happened to me)
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Nydus worms are pretty OP lol
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once i get beta I plan on abusing nydus worms nonstop until they are nerfed lol.
I think an easy fix is to make them have very low HP (actually this might already be the case since I dunno what sorta HP it has) and to make them only spawn on creep. just vision anywhere seems pretty fucking OP honestly lol.
I can just imagine how easy it would be to just have mass nydus worms at every base for Defense and then be able to attack fucking anywhere.
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United States24664 Posts
On February 22 2010 11:54 Ideas wrote:
once i get beta I plan on abusing nydus worms nonstop until they are nerfed lol.
I think an easy fix is to make them have very low HP (actually this might already be the case since I dunno what sorta HP it has) and to make them only spawn on creep. just vision anywhere seems pretty fucking OP honestly lol.
I can just imagine how easy it would be to just have mass nydus worms at every base for Defense and then be able to attack fucking anywhere.
You are on to something when you point out that they can make multiple worms... most of the people here saying how defending isn't that bad since you can just kill the worm are not taking into account the fact that the zerg will often make more than one worm at the same time. Whether it be two in the main, one at main one at nat, or what have you.... it's tough.
Pachi used nydus worms vs me to expand to islands early lol
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funny stop is to build supplies/buildings so zerg can't land the worm..  I like the the worm, makes things interesting imo. It's not that bad if you can expect it, also once everyone gets used to it, we will adjust accordingly.
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I'm not even sure if nydus worms are being abused to their full power.
I'm not in beta but for the last couple of days I've been thinking of a build where you tech to lair as fast as possible and defend with queen/lings. Build a baneling nest and nydus network. Morph your zerglings to banelings, click the auto-attack buildings button, and send them through a worm to the back of your enemy's base. I think they'd have a hard time stopping you from taking out their key structures even if they suspected what you were doing.
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On February 22 2010 17:01 Depops wrote:
I'm not even sure if nydus worms are being abused to their full power.
I'm not in beta but for the last couple of days I've been thinking of a build where you tech to lair as fast as possible and defend with queen/lings. Build a baneling nest and nydus network. Morph your zerglings to banelings, click the auto-attack buildings button, and send them through a worm to the back of your enemy's base. I think they'd have a hard time stopping you from taking out their key structures even if they suspected what you were doing.
Would work the same way as a void ray rush I guess. How many banelings does it take to take out a hatchery/nexus/CC?
EDIT: Without upgrades:
19 banelings to take out Orbital command and Nexus.
23 for lair
That's 1500 minerals and 500 gas for the banelings, 500 min/300 gas for tech and 100min/100 gas for the worm, 2100min/900gas. Any ideas how fast this can be done? It's hard to estimate gas income from the streams I've seen...
Maybe the Nydus worm can be used as mutas in SC ZvT? Even if you can't kill him directly, the threat of continued harras would force terran to stay in his base...
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I think in SC2 everyone is realizing there is no "put all your units at the choke, with air defense in your base" viability. Be prepared to put a decent amount of $$ and gas into protecting your workers.
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Nydus Worms on Desert Oasis are just dumb =/
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It's basically a Nydus channel NETWORK, is excellent for defence aswell.
And I think they should require creep to be placed like in the first build I played.
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Another option would be to spread out your supply depots all around your base and just keep them down so that he doesn't have any room to place the nydus worm.
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United States7166 Posts
if you spot a network with Scan, keep a group of marines in your base. if you feel like you need the alert, use a sensor tower as well
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On February 21 2010 22:59 MidKnight wrote:
I don't understand why did they need to remove the requirement to have creep in order to cast Nydus worm..
Overlords can drop creep now anyway, it would make it easier to spot the worms as well as require few extra seconds to lay the creep, making it easier to prepare..
But I guess we have to wait and see
because warp gates are instant once a pylon is up?
nydus cost 100/200 and lair tech
then it cost 100/100 to lay the head.
Then units come out fairly slowly.
on a time scale it would look like this:
o= unit Out
#s = seconds
1oo2oo3oo4oo5oo6oo etc
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Honestly nydus worms are the most broken mechanic that zerg has and I'm surprised people aren't screaming IMBA at the top of their lungs because of it. It's like a recall but you can recall BACK, for FREE.
The problem with the nydus right now is that there is absolutely no downside to it at all. It's completely worthwhile every game unless you need the money to not die, or if you went mass muta. Blizz should at LEAST bring back placing on creep only, so with good base layout you can make it really difficult to do.
I also think that it really forces terran to win early, because once it goes to lategame zerg can defend all their positions with nydus, attack any time terran moves out, and attack anywhere they want.
Basically the only thing with nydus is hope to god he screws it up and loses his army doing it, because you will be behind if you let him get away with them. Your best bet is to counter after a botched attempt. ZvP isn't as bad as ZvT. ZvT is completely imbalanced.
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Okay, I play both Z and T in the beta right now so I hope I can help. First, build your supply depots around the perimiter of your base so you have full vision. Second, play with the sound way up. It makes a very distinct noise when used, and you can hear it if you have vision if it. When you hear it, go kill it immediately. Easy easy. If you have a large army and you feel tricky, let half his army out first and THEN kill everything. Good way to set him back.
TvZ is one of my best matchups, I promise it isn't imbalanced, and certainly not from Nydus. Nydus punishes you not paying attention; it's like a slow dropship.
Oh, and if you're really still having problems just build a sensor tower and pay more attention.
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You don't have to have vision of it to hear it, surprisingly.
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On February 20 2010 07:06 Shiladie wrote:
nydus has to be on creep, as zerg position buildings to take up all available spots a nydus can be put and scout for overlord trying to get vision with your own overlords (chase off with queen)
as other races, just keep some AA units around, the overlord has to come in, drop creep, and then spawn the worm, just keep some AA around your base.
It would be nice if people who haven't played the game didn't post in the SC2 STRATEGY section giving out false info.
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i think blizzard should raise the build time from 10 second to 20 second
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Just listen for it. There's practically a warning siren.
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On February 20 2010 16:12 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2010 15:02 pat965 wrote:
Can those who don't have the beta, or at the very least - don't know what they're talking about, can we have them not spread misinformation? I personally don't have the beta, so I will keep my mouth shut when it comes to strategy, but it's counterproductive when our (incorrect) assumptions are exclaimed all over the place. No. I don't have the beta, and I can still contribute to discussions- you can see my contributions to this thread for example: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=112755¤tpage=3As to Nydus worms... it's a complicated topic. Someone mentioned they're like the Zerg recall, and it's not too far from the truth. Move out with your army, and Zerg recalls all over your base; stay in your base, and Zerg expands. Denying the Zerg vision of your base to prevent him from ever putting Nydus Worms down there isn't really a viable counter. Killing the Nydus Worms in the 10 seconds before they can start unloading units might be viable, though. Looking at the stats of the unit: 200 HP, armor value 1, Armored the logical choices to kill it quickly at low cost seem to be stimmed Marines or stimmed Marauders. The Nydus Worm really isn't that much tougher than a Zealot, it's immobile, and you have 10 seconds to kill it. Since the Zerg can make multiple Nydus Worms all over your base, you'd need to spread some units all around its perimeter; leaving 6-8 Marines behind to allow your main army to move out sounds like a fair compromise, but it'd be nice to have some gameplay testing to see whether it actually works out or not.
don't misinform. u do not have 10 seconds to kill the nydus... u have like 3-4 MAYBE 5 seconds if u see it coming. it's a fast spawn and it's cheap. i too have trouble dealing with this nydus drop. if i had 10 seconds to kill this, i would not complain.
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Nydus are sometimes poor at maps with a small plateau, for example metalopolis (city in the sky).
Imo I find medivacs more OP. See enemies army coming? All aboard and move to the next expansion. And thats cheaper than a head, less fragile, drops units faster and heals them as well!
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Broken mechanic. Needs to be fixed immediately. Requiring creep is a good start.
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So as a T player who gets burned by Nydus drop from time to time, I like what I'm reading in here. Most mains can be covered by 2 sensor towers. I'd say building those two sensor towers, spreading out your supply depots so they have a harder time placing the nydus, and leaving 2-4 reapers in your base ( with speed so they can run to the other side of the base in a hurry? ) would handle it.
I'm going to have to try Zerg out to see for myself how long it takes for them to build, what it sounds like, and what it looks like. Since I'm not used to them I don't know what they look/sound like....
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Yeah, definitely educate yourself on what they sound like -- and nitro boosted reapers is a GREAT idea. Four of them is great for a harass at any point in the game, and they'd rip the worm in half almost immediately.
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Scout properly, hide a few banshees behind his base and as soon as his army enters the network, kill it quickly and you kill his whole army. Just had that happen to me t.t
And maybe the next step will to change your build order in your main to try to leave no free 3x3 grids. ;-)
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Worms are probably the most annoying thing I've had to deal with since I started playing. Only thing that I can think of that hasn't been said is to listen carefully. Listen to the sounds in-game to react fast enough.
In the end though, nydus is just plain annoying. A hidden nydus can quickly wrap up the game if it is unsuspected.
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I agree with many people that the nydus exit should either:
1)Require creep: You need the overlord to see anyway right? So just make it spit creep. This way the OL will be more vulnerable and more likely to be seen.
2)Increase exit build time: WTH 10 seconds?! imba!!!! You look away for 2 seconds and look back the nydus is building and your forces are on the other side. By the time you get there your opponents got 30 units raping your mineral line and then units.
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Nydus can be problematic on wide plateus. Terran should have easier time since they can detect enemy with towers and react asap if they are watching map. I guess only thing protoss can do is to pylon/cannon his plateu. 10 seconds can be really devastating, esp if zerg fakes some attack somewhere to get your attention.
I haven't really played zerg much but I guess you can also nydus the cliffs to harass with hydras or roaches.
Keeping a burrowed ling at each base means you can wait till the enemy settles and worm the heck out of him when he thinks he's safe, no need to move army.
Nydus network also has a funny ability to show your units 10 less (or more if you transport some to other place), fooling your enemy into thinking you're defensless.
Anyway, it IS counterable, but rather lame now. NOT TO mention 2v2 capability with a terran or toss pal's ability to reveal map.
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Nydus requires a decently large square to ..emerge from ? but anyways i simply manipulate where they place it with supply depot placement. On Scrapyard for example i set my supply depots all behind my mineral lines with 2 squares between, always making sure there is not (i think) 6x6 square where they can do it behind my mineral line. The only spot i leave room for this square is right by my barracks/starport/factory. Also keep 2 siege tanks in ur base if your worried about it raping ur supply line... anything that comes out of it gets blown up pretty fast.
For protoss i suggest using your giant buildings (especially since so many are getting like 5-6 warpgates in longer games) to manipulate where there is room for them to drop it and youll be fine.
pre-emptive thinking/planning seems to be the most logical way to NOt get owned by this.
Also a full line of mineral workers can kill a nydus be4 it is done building. Ive successfully saved my base by doing this multiple times, tho once i did react too slow and 4-5 untis managed to get out be4 it died.
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On March 10 2010 06:46 filthi wrote:
Yeah, definitely educate yourself on what they sound like -- and nitro boosted reapers is a GREAT idea. Four of them is great for a harass at any point in the game, and they'd rip the worm in half almost immediately.
I'm pretty sure the actual nydus worm is an unit not a building, so reapers don't use D8 charges on it.
And according to what I remember the Nydus worm is listed as a 10 second build time... I'll check that tho.
Either way, it's definitely not totally OP. Perhaps just requiring it to only be built on creep would be a good balance. It's extremely easy to hear. There's practically a "Nuclear launch detected" type of sound except it's in Zergese.
A lot of these complaint posts sound like people who are too lazy to scout and prepare. It's not all that different from preparing against an arbiter recall in SCBW. In fact it's pretty much a weaker version of recall. It only "unloads" like what 3 maybe 4/5 units at a time? Takes a while to build, requires prior sight, and screams like a mother****** when it's being built.
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I'm pretty sure it's a building -- if it's the last thing alive on the map you actually won't lose until it dies, and if you're not looking when it starts getting killed the message is "your base is under attack", not "units" or whatever.
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On March 09 2010 13:04 Floophead_III wrote:
Honestly nydus worms are the most broken mechanic that zerg has and I'm surprised people aren't screaming IMBA at the top of their lungs because of it. It's like a recall but you can recall BACK, for FREE.
The problem with the nydus right now is that there is absolutely no downside to it at all. It's completely worthwhile every game unless you need the money to not die, or if you went mass muta. Blizz should at LEAST bring back placing on creep only, so with good base layout you can make it really difficult to do.
I also think that it really forces terran to win early, because once it goes to lategame zerg can defend all their positions with nydus, attack any time terran moves out, and attack anywhere they want.
Basically the only thing with nydus is hope to god he screws it up and loses his army doing it, because you will be behind if you let him get away with them. Your best bet is to counter after a botched attempt. ZvP isn't as bad as ZvT. ZvT is completely imbalanced.
push out to middle of map, get nydus'd, elimination race time
wouldn't really need the creep requirement if turrets could hit the exit. i usually try to put up turrets around to discourage ovies from floating around my base and checking stuff out but honestly they just suicide into it and unload their army. it kinda sucks.
and as noted the best part is there's nearly no drawback (dont know if it costs minerals to make an exit and i'm pretty sure the entrance doesnt die) so even after a failed attempt you have to sit there in your base wondering if another one is coming.
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Braavos36374 Posts
On March 10 2010 20:06 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2010 13:04 Floophead_III wrote:
Honestly nydus worms are the most broken mechanic that zerg has and I'm surprised people aren't screaming IMBA at the top of their lungs because of it. It's like a recall but you can recall BACK, for FREE.
The problem with the nydus right now is that there is absolutely no downside to it at all. It's completely worthwhile every game unless you need the money to not die, or if you went mass muta. Blizz should at LEAST bring back placing on creep only, so with good base layout you can make it really difficult to do.
I also think that it really forces terran to win early, because once it goes to lategame zerg can defend all their positions with nydus, attack any time terran moves out, and attack anywhere they want.
Basically the only thing with nydus is hope to god he screws it up and loses his army doing it, because you will be behind if you let him get away with them. Your best bet is to counter after a botched attempt. ZvP isn't as bad as ZvT. ZvT is completely imbalanced. push out to middle of map, get nydus'd, elimination race time wouldn't really need the creep requirement if turrets could hit the exit. i usually try to put up turrets around to discourage ovies from floating around my base and checking stuff out but honestly they just suicide into it and unload their army. it kinda sucks. and as noted the best part is there's nearly no drawback (dont know if it costs minerals to make an exit and i'm pretty sure the entrance doesnt die) so even after a failed attempt you have to sit there in your base wondering if another one is coming.
It costs 100/100 to place an exit, and the initial network costs 100/200 i think.
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If you guys are scouting properly, and using sensor towers, and xel naga towers properly, you should be able to prepare for nydus attacks, at the very least be able to see it quick enough to get there before it does maximum damage.
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There is a limit to how many units you can transport w/ Nydus, and it's 255. Tested it with 200 pop zerglings, and could only fit 120 (24X5)+120(24X5)+15.
Not a practical limit, but a limit nonetheless.
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EPT
