|
Hello, Ive been thinking for some time now about this map layout, or rather the principle idea behind it. A semi-islands map which has a standard map with 4-5 bases per player on the main part half and another few bases on the other half. Never mind the layout apart from the vertical split.
+ Show Spoiler +
There are several ways to tweak balance on this map:
- Since you can't warp up a cliff warp ins from one side to the other could be possible or could be denied.
- Stalker blink range could be enough to cross or the gap could be big enough to deny that.
- Colossus/Reaper walkable cliffs are options
- Distance between the island bases and the next build able spot on the main land can be changed to make Terran CCs floating over more or less profitable
- The amount of bases on the island can be varied to make it more or less important. I think that 2 bases per player are minimum to not make it just another useless island map.
- Inhibitor/Acceleration zones can be used to make it a bit harder to cross if necessary
- I'm sure there is more one could do
Do you think this layout can work in principle? Has anybody made a map like this before?
|
Wouldnt it be Protoss favored? Warp prism is already in most builds. It would allow them to expand on islands rather quickly, and with the prism they would be able to get a significant gateway force on the islands to prevent the opponent from expanding there. Add to that the option of recalling army between the islands and their main, and I think they could severely outposition T and Z.
|
The biggest issue probably wouldn't be balance, but rather making expanding to the other side worth it. Since having bases on both sides makes defending much more difficult you could easily end up with players never expanding to the island and just trying to kill each other on 2/3 bases.
And this is arguably a similar idea to Golden Wall, so we'll get a better idea of how that works out next season.
|
On March 09 2020 05:17 _fool wrote:
Wouldnt it be Protoss favored? Warp prism is already in most builds. It would allow them to expand on islands rather quickly, and with the prism they would be able to get a significant gateway force on the islands to prevent the opponent from expanding there. Add to that the option of recalling army between the islands and their main, and I think they could severely outposition T and Z.
No, I don't think so. Terrans build way more flying transport than either P or Z. Zerg won't have trouble with nydus worms in the later game. I think if anything Protoss is at a disadvantage. But overall I think it could be made balanced.
On March 09 2020 05:34 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
The biggest issue probably wouldn't be balance, but rather making expanding to the other side worth it. Since having bases on both sides makes defending much more difficult you could easily end up with players never expanding to the island and just trying to kill each other on 2/3 bases.
And this is arguably a similar idea to Golden Wall, so we'll get a better idea of how that works out next season.
Well making one of them into gold would help. Also if the main island has 4 bases you'd have to expand there rather sooner than later.
I don't think Golden Wall is similar, the mineral patches to the bottom are mined out relatively quickly.
|
I think it would be better, if there were rocks guardian the right 1/3rd of the map. Like players unlock it as the game goes on. It would have to be a massive map though and have good defenders advantage for the first few bases.
|
On March 09 2020 00:37 Aunvilgodess wrote:Hello, Ive been thinking for some time now about this map layout, or rather the principle idea behind it. A semi-islands map which has a standard map with 4-5 bases per player on the main part half and another few bases on the other half. Never mind the layout apart from the vertical split. + Show Spoiler +There are several ways to tweak balance on this map: - Since you can't warp up a cliff warp ins from one side to the other could be possible or could be denied. - Stalker blink range could be enough to cross or the gap could be big enough to deny that. - Colossus/Reaper walkable cliffs are options - Distance between the island bases and the next build able spot on the main land can be changed to make Terran CCs floating over more or less profitable - The amount of bases on the island can be varied to make it more or less important. I think that 2 bases per player are minimum to not make it just another useless island map. - Inhibitor/Acceleration zones can be used to make it a bit harder to cross if necessary - I'm sure there is more one could do Do you think this layout can work in principle? Has anybody made a map like this before?
Typically no, making players expand to the other side wouldn't work due to reinforcement.
Let me explain though~
The idea has been done before, I would bring up examples if I'm willing to dig into the pile of maps I've seen within my time as a mapmaker and generally this idea has some principles that are unique and can be sought after. But there is multiple issues. So I'll go into basics before explaining how races would generally interact with such an idea.
1. No matter what player mentality wouldn't like having half the map split like this where its impossible to reach the otherside without air units. (or nydus for zerg along with overlords) Generally this is due to reinforcement. If you expand to the semi-islands you have to worry about where your army is at all times, and this would make air-focused armies much more powerful as you can traverse the gap ground units cannot go over. This means that where your mains are located early game with be fairly aggressive on 2/3 or 3 base allins trying to kill the other player. And if the other player is turtling, you have to swiftly gain control of the semi-islands otherwise attacking them have an unneeded difficulty added to it.
For maps like Golden Wall where the 'semi island' can be accessed by ground units once the mineral walls are mined out, it can work more effectively. But splitting a part off the map that you need transport to reach isn't ideal (this is one of the few things why we moved past islands. It's not that they're bad, it just isn't ideal most of the time even with it not being an actual problem.)
2. When it comes to races you have imposing issues, such as:
Protoss: Protoss can play relatively safe and use a warpprism to get a probe to the semi-island and establish a base. While looking like they're doing an all-in. And for cases against Terran, this can be an issue if the terran is struggling to get information. (Such as reapers cannot scout the main/ having to decide to tank their eco to scan and POSSIBLY miss the protoss base on the semi-island) Along with this protoss can effectively hold off assaults on their main bases and focus on a air-base army if it reaches to the mid-late game point. Where their air units are typically stronger than the other races.
Terran: Terran can be stealthy and have their third float over to the semi-island as they do a 2-base timing attack.
While they might not auto win they can distract the other player to get their base established. While this seems interesting they'll have to focus on a more mobile army that can quickly load up larger numbers into medivacs to fly over. Or a air base army, making mech unfortunately having to be more heavy on the vikings and bio having to be microed even more. Not that this is an issue, but in scenarios where the bio army is split. Even a 70/30 split. 30% defending the outer bases at the semi-island. If they're face with a larger army or 2 armies on 2 different fronts. Microing will be harder.
And for mech due to its slower mobility it will be harder to effectively keep up agro on 2 different fronts. This is subjective to what the terran may be facing.
Zerg: Zerg is an obvious 60/40 here. Not that it poses issues with their fast mobility and access to the nydus worm that allows them to transport their army faster (I neglected protosses recall because that isn't as effective as the nydus worm)
This also includes workers. So if they can get even a single worker to the semi-islands if they arent pressured to surrender the base there and focus on offensive it can be tricky to keep them at bay on 2 fronts. This is clearly subjective though.
Now beyond that there may be other glaring issues I didn't cover out of sheer neglect or not caring enough to look into it further. But generally semi-islands don't work well. As players will straight up avoid them in favor of just being aggressive until they have defined map control. And making the semi-island gold bases either does not fix the problem. Gold bases should always be used scarcely and never as a means to attract players to an area, as they don't apply much input besides dangerous scenarios if one player control them for too long.
|
On March 13 2020 01:23 Pklixian wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2020 00:37 Aunvilgodess wrote:Hello, Ive been thinking for some time now about this map layout, or rather the principle idea behind it. A semi-islands map which has a standard map with 4-5 bases per player on the main part half and another few bases on the other half. Never mind the layout apart from the vertical split. + Show Spoiler +There are several ways to tweak balance on this map: - Since you can't warp up a cliff warp ins from one side to the other could be possible or could be denied. - Stalker blink range could be enough to cross or the gap could be big enough to deny that. - Colossus/Reaper walkable cliffs are options - Distance between the island bases and the next build able spot on the main land can be changed to make Terran CCs floating over more or less profitable - The amount of bases on the island can be varied to make it more or less important. I think that 2 bases per player are minimum to not make it just another useless island map. - Inhibitor/Acceleration zones can be used to make it a bit harder to cross if necessary - I'm sure there is more one could do Do you think this layout can work in principle? Has anybody made a map like this before? Typically no, making players expand to the other side wouldn't work due to reinforcement. Let me explain though~ The idea has been done before, I would bring up examples if I'm willing to dig into the pile of maps I've seen within my time as a mapmaker and generally this idea has some principles that are unique and can be sought after. But there is multiple issues. So I'll go into basics before explaining how races would generally interact with such an idea.
Very interesting, while I have certainly not seen all maps either I think I've seen a few and I haven't seen any. Please do dig into that pile of maps of yours.
|
I love the idea, make it happen please!
|
United States10334 Posts
See Third World of an example of a viable dual island map. I think obviously there will need to be adjustments to make it fit SC2,
 Third World
|
Inner Coven is an interesting semi-island BW map with some features that could probably be adapted to SC2.
|
How did Zergs deal with the lack of an easy 3rd in BW? I definitely think the Zerg needs at minimum 3 easy bases.
But atm I'm most worried about Protoss since they can't shift their army around without recall. What if the Terran drops his bio force on one side, the toss responds with recalling and the Terran just flies to the other side again? Any idea on how to solve this? I suppose the map somehow needs to be rather blink Stalker friendly. What other ways can be used to make it easier for the Protoss?
|
On April 07 2020 21:57 Aunvilgodess wrote:How did Zergs deal with the lack of an easy 3rd in BW? I definitely think the Zerg needs at minimum 3 easy bases. But atm I'm most worried about Protoss since they can't shift their army around without recall. What if the Terran drops his bio force on one side, the toss responds with recalling and the Terran just flies to the other side again? Any idea on how to solve this? I suppose the map somehow needs to be rather blink Stalker friendly. What other ways can be used to make it easier for the Protoss?
You could place neutral shades on ramps, so that only Adepts can go up.
But honestly, between warp prisms, recall, warp-ins on the island, cannons+battery being the best static D by far, and Stalker+Colossus being able to cliff-walk, I don't think Protoss would be at any disadvantage on land-islands.
If anything, I think Zerg is at a disadvantage because they have to sacrifice the production of a Hatchery to build it on an island, or at least have it delayed by having to micro every egg from island hatcheries into a Nydus or Overtaker, they have no real cliff-hoping ability other than Locusts, and don't tend to make large numbers of transports to quickly ferry units up and down.
|
What was that one map from i think it was Fantasy vs Stork? Where Fanta forced Vultures through the eggs? Something similar to that could maybe be interesting.
|
On April 08 2020 12:58 Syphon8 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2020 21:57 Aunvilgodess wrote:How did Zergs deal with the lack of an easy 3rd in BW? I definitely think the Zerg needs at minimum 3 easy bases. But atm I'm most worried about Protoss since they can't shift their army around without recall. What if the Terran drops his bio force on one side, the toss responds with recalling and the Terran just flies to the other side again? Any idea on how to solve this? I suppose the map somehow needs to be rather blink Stalker friendly. What other ways can be used to make it easier for the Protoss? You could place neutral shades on ramps, so that only Adepts can go up. But honestly, between warp prisms, recall, warp-ins on the island, cannons+battery being the best static D by far, and Stalker+Colossus being able to cliff-walk, I don't think Protoss would be at any disadvantage on land-islands. If anything, I think Zerg is at a disadvantage because they have to sacrifice the production of a Hatchery to build it on an island, or at least have it delayed by having to micro every egg from island hatcheries into a Nydus or Overtaker, they have no real cliff-hoping ability other than Locusts, and don't tend to make large numbers of transports to quickly ferry units up and down.
I think Zerg should be fine due to Mutas, Nydus and being able to rely on trading units more. Also I think its easier to make a map generally Zerg favored than to make it specifically Protoss favored.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/BNRbQoa.png)
