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Flame Crest( by Fatam) Map Size: 128x128 Published on: [NA] [EU] [KR] [SEA](click on images to view larger version)![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6ols9As.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TucQYL9.jpg) Original Incineration Zone: + Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/391_Incineration%20Zone.jpg
Timetwister started the blizz remake contest thread and the idea of remaking Incineration Zone took over my head, sidetracking my other projects. Ironically this ended up being completely different than the original, other than the aesthetics, so it probably doesn't even qualify for the contest. But I really like the layout I ended up with so I figured I'd throw it up and see what people think.
Description:
The easiest path to your opponent is kind of an improved (imo) Klontas Mire approach. A very short rush (it's ~28 sec nat choke to nat choke) but the choke is only 4 squares wide. It can be closed off if you kill the rock tower, and there's a highground above it to help defend. Any rush via this route will also have to pass through the vision of the XNT.
FFE or any other wall-off is pretty easy, but there is a nat backdoor. You do have to be a little careful placing your wall-off. You don't want your buildings to be under where the rock tower falls. 
There is an "in-nat" third. It is a full base, but a lot of the resources are vulnerable to lowground harass. The XNT even gives highground vision of the geyser and 3 of the mineral patches. In this way I tried to create a half base without it actually being a half base, and perhaps create some interesting fights.
The top right base is pretty far away, but there is only 1 path for your opponent to get there and it can't be shelled by any unit on the highground so it is actually not a bad base in some situations.
The bottom left area is a little crazy.. but self-explanatory if you look at it. It's an area that starts out slightly chokey but killing the debris can make it quite open with lots of ways to flank.
The map can be played anywhere from moderately turtley to hyper-aggressive. Hope you like.
Aesthetics:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/x2PpLv2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2X6LzkS.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5YwDTXv.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TNy5hjP.jpg)
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Incineration zone trying to make a come back ? 
Really nice but the problem is that the map is very choky like Incineration zone and this destroys your work :/
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How about a rock tower over that path instead of a natural Supply Depot? A single Supply Depot can be killed extremely fast so I think rock towers will do a better job for that role.
I think the overall concept for this map is really nice, from the small rush distance, to the backdoor and hard bases, I think this map is really good, and also we don't see nearly enough of this symmetry.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
This map is messing with my head. Really interesting concept :O
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Can I use this map for my custom MOD? I am working on one custom mod and this concept is really great with my MOD. If so, may I do small editation for my mod(one more watchtower instead of one expo, as my MOD have diferent way of watchtower functions)?
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The thirds outside the natural are such a unique idea. I really like how that was set up. Something you need to check is if the nearby watchtower reveals any high ground there. As far as balance goes, if it gives sight to the high ground third, Blink timings could be quite powerful.
I don't see the point in having those neutral Supply Depots. They have very low HP. I think you should either shrink the choke if you want it to be a really small choke, add rocks, maybe add a collapsable rock tower, or just remove the Supply Depot and leave it as is.
The most difficult part about designing conversely symmetrical maps is making sure that both sides are balanced so that thye each get used, but isn't too overwhelming for the players at the same time. You nailed it on this map. The southern section is very well designed. The four destructible rocks make that whole area function without making expansions too difficult to defend. Still, I don't think a player will ever have more than five bases at once on this map, and to be honest, holding a fifth will be difficult, though not impossible.
The only structural change I'd suggest is removing those two ramps in the bottom left high ground that point towards the middle of the map. Then push the other ramps that were further back more towards the center of the map. This would make the fifths have one entrance and thus easier to defend, though it would be open, so it's not like there's a choke and it's too easy to defend. This change would also make the bottom left expansion easier to hold by only having two entrances where an opponent could strike: their side, or down from the middle.
One cool this about this map is how easy it is to proxy Stargate. The fifths are perfect for that because the air distance would be almost nonexistent and the time it would take for a worker to walk down there and scout is very long.
This is a great map! I'm very impressed that you could take Incineration Zone, one of the worst maps ever, and turn it into something as original and strategic as this.
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All I have to say is HOT DAMN.
Okay actually I also have to say, I think those high ground 3rds are a little imba for skytoss PvZ, and generally a bit zerg hater, although there are plenty of bases elsewhere for zerg to easily progress 3 -> 4 -> 5 and beyond. But back to skytoss, I'm not sure what kind of pressure zerg is supposed to use to deny a super fast third base from protoss while they also get to make void rays and whatnot with near impunity. But, maybe zerg is just supposed to take 4 bases and make spores and SH, which this map more or less allows. Also now that I think of it, this map is pretty conducive to putting hatcheries everywhere and daring skytoss to try and catch em all. 
Anyway, HOTTTTTT DAAAAMN. There's no way I can beat this for the map remake contest. Probably.
edit: I was going to mention, if this were a "real map" that high ground 3rd should be a 3/4 base.
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On June 10 2013 02:54 EatThePath wrote:All I have to say is HOT DAMN. Okay actually I also have to say, I think those high ground 3rds are a little imba for skytoss PvZ, and generally a bit zerg hater, although there are plenty of bases elsewhere for zerg to easily progress 3 -> 4 -> 5 and beyond. But back to skytoss, I'm not sure what kind of pressure zerg is supposed to use to deny a super fast third base from protoss while they also get to make void rays and whatnot with near impunity. But, maybe zerg is just supposed to take 4 bases and make spores and SH, which this map more or less allows. Also now that I think of it, this map is pretty conducive to putting hatcheries everywhere and daring skytoss to try and catch em all. Anyway, HOTTTTTT DAAAAMN. There's no way I can beat this for the map remake contest. Probably. edit: I was going to mention, if this were a "real map" that high ground 3rd should be a 3/4 base.
I would just say I think the map is generally too small for sky toss to really work out here. I don't think it's a map that will split especially well, either.
As far as my opinion of the map goes, I think the concept is sound and it can produce great games, which is really all you can ask, gj Fatam.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fJ2Eqrl.jpg)
Thanks for the comments. Here's an overview w/ the tower ranges since there was a question or two about that.
@ algue - I don't actually think it's a very chokey map. I think it's more of a mixed bag. There's some chokey parts but also some very (very) open places to engage. The middle near the northeast XNT is super open, along with the 3 lowground bases nearby.
@ moskonia/antares - the rock tower idea might be better, I agree. Will probably put that in.
@ path - I thought of skytoss turtling for that third base (in fact it was somewhat designed with that in mind), but I do think it can (probably) be dealt with by zerg. Either mass expand as you said, some SH play, or some multi-pronged stuff could be good. I can imagine the zerg's main force and a ling force. Send the lings at the nat backdoor rocks while the hydras or infestors come in with highground vision and shoot/fungal the 3rd's mineral line or any air units that he left there. Even some muta-corruptor Soulkey style might work if you get it running early enough.
In general lately I've been thinking that, when in doubt, it's good to lean towards making bases safer. In HOTS we've learned that no matter how turtley the base, it can usually be attacked or harassed. Akilon's third is probably more turtley than the highground one here and most people like that map.
edit: updated the map w/ rock towers. OP edited to reflect. published err'where
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To the skytoss point, again, it would have to be a crazy transition where toss has already won. the rush distance and multiple path mean that anyway straight up going air would be killed by mass hydra with the re-inforcement distance, as well as muta corruptor doing well here. I just don't think this is a sky-toss map at all.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Fatam, what is the M2M and N2N distance on this map?
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Hey. Main town hall to main town hall is 52 seconds, nat town hall to nat town hall is 41 sec. Obviously the nat-nat should have an asterisk next to it, given the setup.
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This is a really interesting design, need to wrap my head around it a bit..
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This is awesome, and I totally saw incineration zone in it. My first thought was "wow, this is like one of those super aggressive beta maps." I wonder if there'd be a way to increase the rush distance more drastically with the towers down to help enable three base play. Have you had a chance to play any games on it? How do reapers do?
I also wonder if there's a way to make bases relatively safe from drops but still enable frontal pokes. Perhaps something that's much more open ala metalopolis or even more extreme?
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lore, where are the hydras supposed to attack? they will just get eaten by void rays and nexus cannon with forcefields in a chokepoint, it's not even close to fair.
if the zerg had really good multiprong control, that would present a good threat, but that's a high bar to reach. the idea of hydras / fungals on the mineral line of the 3rd is good but the gas is the most important part, though at least one geyser is really easy to hit. still and all that is probably the most robust approach to trying to "knock down" the skytoss machine instead of a mass expand approach.
the reason skytoss is scary here is exactly because of the close distance and close bases. like I said, you can take a ridiculous fast 3rd. and, it's super easy to do voidray recall snipes, tempest based attacks, or just a timing attack that abuses cliffs, and it's also easy to grab #4 and #5 as long as you are keeping tabs properly. you also have realllllllly nice warpin options from inside your cluster and good spots for pylons out on the map.
not saying this map is broken because of it, it's just a concern that leaps out at me. I actually think there's a lot of interplay, but the burden is on zerg at all stages of the evolution, imo. or to restate it, if they decide they want to force the game a certain way, they better do it flawlessly, whereas protoss can change their mind on the overall plan at any point without too much to fear.
collapsible rocks is probably a good change, allows for more openings too.
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On June 10 2013 14:06 EatThePath wrote:
lore, where are the hydras supposed to attack? they will just get eaten by void rays and nexus cannon with forcefields in a chokepoint, it's not even close to fair.
if the zerg had really good multiprong control, that would present a good threat, but that's a high bar to reach. the idea of hydras / fungals on the mineral line of the 3rd is good but the gas is the most important part, though at least one geyser is really easy to hit. still and all that is probably the most robust approach to trying to "knock down" the skytoss machine instead of a mass expand approach.
the reason skytoss is scary here is exactly because of the close distance and close bases. like I said, you can take a ridiculous fast 3rd. and, it's super easy to do voidray recall snipes, tempest based attacks, or just a timing attack that abuses cliffs, and it's also easy to grab #4 and #5 as long as you are keeping tabs properly. you also have realllllllly nice warpin options from inside your cluster and good spots for pylons out on the map.
not saying this map is broken because of it, it's just a concern that leaps out at me. I actually think there's a lot of interplay, but the burden is on zerg at all stages of the evolution, imo. or to restate it, if they decide they want to force the game a certain way, they better do it flawlessly, whereas protoss can change their mind on the overall plan at any point without too much to fear.
collapsible rocks is probably a good change, allows for more openings too.
I think your game play analysis is slightly off, a lot of hydras get out before voids get out in number, and I think the bases are pretty harass-able with the muta into corruptor style as well. Skytoss takes at least 4 bases to really do properly, and I just don't think it's any better here than any where else. sOs vs. Soulkey on daybreak showed that even on a map that splits well, sky toss just does not have any inherent advantage over other strats, it just IS a strat where before it was not not extremelt viable. But yeah, the reinforcement distance means that a 3 base zerg slamming roach hydra could totally hammer a skytoss down before it gets off the ground.
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I think a lot of the reason skytoss seemed imba for a while is zergs just hadn't figured out all the proper ways to deal with it. I think I'd like to see it tried here. The short rush distances could make it hard to get it running, but -IF- you get it running the rush distance might actually help the skytoss player.
Btw no one seems to be talking about the fact that you can actually take your third by killing the backdoor rocks and taking the 6/9 o'clock base. It probably would be the third least often taken.. but I could see it TvZ if your heart is set on MMMM and not using tanks (if you made tanks I suppose you'd take the highground third). It's slightly chokier than the other lowground third and it allows you to expand towards your opponent (ok, the highground third is technically expanding towards your opponent, but only as far as air units are concerned). Also, if your opponent doesn't wanna take down his backdoor rocks and you have that lower XNT then your third should be easy to defend.
Then again, the zerg will take the other lowground third most of the time so if you take yours as well you're really expanding towards him..:-P so maybe a high level terran should speak up here.
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On June 10 2013 14:22 lorestarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 14:06 EatThePath wrote:
lore, where are the hydras supposed to attack? they will just get eaten by void rays and nexus cannon with forcefields in a chokepoint, it's not even close to fair.
if the zerg had really good multiprong control, that would present a good threat, but that's a high bar to reach. the idea of hydras / fungals on the mineral line of the 3rd is good but the gas is the most important part, though at least one geyser is really easy to hit. still and all that is probably the most robust approach to trying to "knock down" the skytoss machine instead of a mass expand approach.
the reason skytoss is scary here is exactly because of the close distance and close bases. like I said, you can take a ridiculous fast 3rd. and, it's super easy to do voidray recall snipes, tempest based attacks, or just a timing attack that abuses cliffs, and it's also easy to grab #4 and #5 as long as you are keeping tabs properly. you also have realllllllly nice warpin options from inside your cluster and good spots for pylons out on the map.
not saying this map is broken because of it, it's just a concern that leaps out at me. I actually think there's a lot of interplay, but the burden is on zerg at all stages of the evolution, imo. or to restate it, if they decide they want to force the game a certain way, they better do it flawlessly, whereas protoss can change their mind on the overall plan at any point without too much to fear.
collapsible rocks is probably a good change, allows for more openings too. I think your game play analysis is slightly off, a lot of hydras get out before voids get out in number, and I think the bases are pretty harass-able with the muta into corruptor style as well. Skytoss takes at least 4 bases to really do properly, and I just don't think it's any better here than any where else. sOs vs. Soulkey on daybreak showed that even on a map that splits well, sky toss just does not have any inherent advantage over other strats, it just IS a strat where before it was not not extremelt viable. But yeah, the reinforcement distance means that a 3 base zerg slamming roach hydra could totally hammer a skytoss down before it gets off the ground.
I might be wrong about timings and the supremacy of the skytoss strat in pvz. But it does not seem like a good idea to throw roach hydra at the problem when 2 forcefields shut you down. The larger point is that excepting the back door, you can take 3 bases behind one FFE choke. The map we last saw that on is Calm Before the Storm if I'm not mistaken, and we know how that turned out. Granted the backdoor adds a vulnerability, but it is easily walled as well (only 3 3x3, might as well put your infrastructure there) and the attacker can't bounce between entrances, he can only pre-plan a multiprong attack, which, again, is easily handled with ff. This map can't really be compared to anything we've seen recently (or ever maybe?) so I'm going off of a general strategic read more than benchmarks.
As for skytoss, the reason I bring it up (along with the things I mentioned in my previous post) is that it seems to be the go-to deathball for pvz these days, and it is the thing most troubling to zergs as a lategame puzzle. This map, to me, seems highly amenable to exploiting a ground-secure 3rd and locking down the air game from the beginning, which incidentally is also the foundation for the deathball du jour. When I say imba, it is to mean that it is an easier road for the protoss, and if they wanted they could also take other conventional options / expansions, but that is not to say the zerg doesn't have winning plays.
I suppose we can't really say much more, but I wanted to be extra clear, feel free to respond in kind. ^^
And now I really want to test... or see games...
p.s. I'm sure there's a scenario where someone would take the 3rd through the rocks, but I'm not sure what it is. >< Maybe an aborted/deflected immortal sentry attack and the protoss doesn't want to face potential mutas on the highground base.
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The reason Skytoss is bad here is the Swarm Host, small rush distance is very favorable to it, and so are multiple entrances if you use Nydus. Although the easy 3rd for the player with air dominance does seem to give an advantage to Skytoss, so we'll have to see.
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This map blew my mind when Fatam first showed it to me. Who knew you could do so much by improving upon Blizzard's flawed execution? :0 I also need to finish my Blistering Sands redux for that little challenge Timetwister put up.
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Looks like you can't edit old threads.
I made a small edit (basically just widened the choke from the middle towards the 6/9 o'clock bases) and sent this in to TLMC.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/knaiUKr.jpg)
Also to clarify, the old main 2 main / nat 2 nat numbers I posted in the comments are quite wrong, it is actually 53 sec and 42 sec.
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EPT
