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Map Name: [M] (4) Apollo Published in: None Playable Size: 144x144 Tileset: Purely Meinhoff Overview:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rG3aBRV.jpg) Images:+ Show Spoiler +Comments:All spawns enabled. Feedback welcome. - Center base ramps with burrowed ultras, you can't block with one FF. - Center has 4 ridges. Up and Down.
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I like the way the paths to close spawns undulate around a lot, so close and cross spawns are both relatively equal except for air. This map looks very well made imo
I personally think protoss 2 base timings would be very harsh here vs zerg; if the protoss gets just a sentry and a handful of units up that ramp the hatchery and drones are lost. Yet if the ramp were made any wider protoss would be incredibly vulnerable to stephano style roach timings. I suppose zerg could take the 4th as a 3rd, but the path to reinforcing it from main+nat is quite long and circuitous. Having said that the protoss 2base all-ins have being seen less success of late and maybe this kind of map is what's needed to maintain balance.
Also an angled view would be great; i have no idea what's going on in the middle, do the ramps go up and then back down or just up to the middle like antiga?
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On January 02 2013 20:56 Zrana wrote:
I like the way the paths to close spawns undulate around a lot, so close and cross spawns are both relatively equal except for air. This map looks very well made imo
I personally think protoss 2 base timings would be very harsh here vs zerg; if the protoss gets just a sentry and a handful of units up that ramp the hatchery and drones are lost. Yet if the ramp were made any wider protoss would be incredibly vulnerable to stephano style roach timings. I suppose zerg could take the 4th as a 3rd, but the path to reinforcing it from main+nat is quite long and circuitous. Having said that the protoss 2base all-ins have being seen less success of late and maybe this kind of map is what's needed to maintain balance.
Also an angled view would be great; i have no idea what's going on in the middle, do the ramps go up and then back down or just up to the middle like antiga?
This feedback.... Wow so good :D
on the center bases, there are burrowed ultras, which means you can't forcefield it. Maybe I'll add it to the other 3rds.
You choose the thirds based on enemy location.
And yes, it's going up then down
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hi! first of all congrats for the map! what i see as a "problem" for the map is the (haven't played it so everything i am about to say is based on simply viewing the map) difficulty of taking a third.Especialy as a zerg player i would fear to play againt a toss
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On January 02 2013 21:01 Semmo wrote:
on the center bases, there are burrowed ultras, which means you can't forcefield it.
wowowowowow this is so sick, so genius
please tell me it works 100%
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I pretty much agree with everything Zrana said.
I would be scared to take a third on this map as a Protoss player, and would just play my 1-2 base all-in of choice.
Such as sentry immortal PvZ and proxy void ray 1-base allin PvT. Though I could see immortal sentry being somewhat awkward to move in with.
On January 02 2013 22:35 Superouman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2013 21:01 Semmo wrote:
on the center bases, there are burrowed ultras, which means you can't forcefield it. wowowowowow this is so sick, so genius please tell me it works 100%
As far as I am aware they are pretty idiot-proof, stopping all forcefield (you could probably FF right at the bottom and top which would almost block it, but not completely).
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You would still need more forcefields to block a choke
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On January 02 2013 22:35 Superouman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2013 21:01 Semmo wrote:
on the center bases, there are burrowed ultras, which means you can't forcefield it. wowowowowow this is so sick, so genius please tell me it works 100%
Yay Superouman!! Thanks! :D
it works 100%! Etc, that's why I put 2 so you can't do top and bottom. You'll need at least 3 to block the 1x ramp.
And as a toss player you shouldn't worry about third in PvZ; it's really easy to Sim City, man. just simcity and take base yo.
Also, you can stack ultras which means you can basically make a choke indefinitely forcefield-proof.
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On January 02 2013 23:05 Semmo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2013 22:35 Superouman wrote:On January 02 2013 21:01 Semmo wrote:
on the center bases, there are burrowed ultras, which means you can't forcefield it. wowowowowow this is so sick, so genius please tell me it works 100% Yay Superouman!! Thanks! :D it works 100%! Etc, that's why I put 2 so you can't do top and bottom. You'll need at least 3 to block the 1x ramp. And as a toss player you shouldn't worry about third in PvZ; it's really easy to Sim City, man. just simcity and take base yo. Also, you can stack ultras which means you can basically make a choke indefinitely forcefield-proof.
the ultra-on-choke idea is very nice indeed, yet i thing the imbalance after third base is quite obvious in close spawn situations. layout is so-so really. so basically you take the four bases close to you, even in close spawn, because it would be terrible to maneuver around if you try to expand away exclusively. expanding towards does not look that bad really, so i think this would be viable.
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On January 03 2013 00:59 Samro225am wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2013 23:05 Semmo wrote:On January 02 2013 22:35 Superouman wrote:On January 02 2013 21:01 Semmo wrote:
on the center bases, there are burrowed ultras, which means you can't forcefield it. wowowowowow this is so sick, so genius please tell me it works 100% Yay Superouman!! Thanks! :D it works 100%! Etc, that's why I put 2 so you can't do top and bottom. You'll need at least 3 to block the 1x ramp. And as a toss player you shouldn't worry about third in PvZ; it's really easy to Sim City, man. just simcity and take base yo. Also, you can stack ultras which means you can basically make a choke indefinitely forcefield-proof. the ultra-on-choke idea is very nice indeed, yet i thing the imbalance after third base is quite obvious in close spawn situations. layout is so-so really. so basically you take the four bases close to you, even in close spawn, because it would be terrible to maneuver around if you try to expand away exclusively. expanding towards does not look that bad really, so i think this would be viable.
Firstly, why do you think that expanding away from your opponent is not viable? I think they can take it just fine.. They have an advantage from the harrasser in that they have a choke to defend - most of the expansions are singlr entrance.
Secondly, the fourths don't have to be standard in every map... And its just that one spawn is difficult, but even so its probably not harder than antiga.
Why do you think it is a bad layout? :[ I thought i used chokes and bases appropriately and promoted movement rather than stayinone place and defend. I am not sure if there is a layout that enables all spawns AND is small and cozy thqt is vastly different from this, while promoting movement and not turtle (so no inbase)
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Burrowed ultras is so amazing. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw some of the Kespa maps doing something similar eventually 
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On January 03 2013 01:33 Semmo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2013 00:59 Samro225am wrote:On January 02 2013 23:05 Semmo wrote:On January 02 2013 22:35 Superouman wrote:On January 02 2013 21:01 Semmo wrote:
on the center bases, there are burrowed ultras, which means you can't forcefield it. wowowowowow this is so sick, so genius please tell me it works 100% Yay Superouman!! Thanks! :D it works 100%! Etc, that's why I put 2 so you can't do top and bottom. You'll need at least 3 to block the 1x ramp. And as a toss player you shouldn't worry about third in PvZ; it's really easy to Sim City, man. just simcity and take base yo. Also, you can stack ultras which means you can basically make a choke indefinitely forcefield-proof. the ultra-on-choke idea is very nice indeed, yet i thing the imbalance after third base is quite obvious in close spawn situations. layout is so-so really. so basically you take the four bases close to you, even in close spawn, because it would be terrible to maneuver around if you try to expand away exclusively. expanding towards does not look that bad really, so i think this would be viable. Firstly, why do you think that expanding away from your opponent is not viable? I think they can take it just fine.. They have an advantage from the harrasser in that they have a choke to defend - most of the expansions are singlr entrance. Secondly, the fourths don't have to be standard in every map... And its just that one spawn is difficult, but even so its probably not harder than antiga. Why do you think it is a bad layout? :[ I thought i used chokes and bases appropriately and promoted movement rather than stayinone place and defend. I am not sure if there is a layout that enables all spawns AND is small and cozy thqt is vastly different from this, while promoting movement and not turtle (so no inbase)
imbalance is the worng word, sorry. what i want to say is that you do not really have an option for third, there will always be one base to go to first and then you will take the other close by base (your fourth). you will not want to expand away into the next quarter (of the map), because your pathing is a bit odd there. the player with map control will easily dominant expansions that stretch our so far. if you can secure four bases, you basically control even more potentially. that is why i say the layout is so-so. i did not write that i think it is bad! in most game situations the map is played through the middle. it is a bit one dimensional. getting caught on the side path, imagine that. also you can react pretty easily from the area in front of your nat to both third options etc.
what i would like to see really (what i think is a better layout) is a more complex pathwork that allows thirds to be controlled, while also a bit harder. try to no have long paths that limit movement too much.
edit: it would be nice to know the rush distances nat-choke to nat-choke
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1 XWT in the middle that controls all paths.
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On January 03 2013 01:50 Samro225am wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2013 01:33 Semmo wrote:On January 03 2013 00:59 Samro225am wrote:On January 02 2013 23:05 Semmo wrote:On January 02 2013 22:35 Superouman wrote:On January 02 2013 21:01 Semmo wrote:
on the center bases, there are burrowed ultras, which means you can't forcefield it. wowowowowow this is so sick, so genius please tell me it works 100% Yay Superouman!! Thanks! :D it works 100%! Etc, that's why I put 2 so you can't do top and bottom. You'll need at least 3 to block the 1x ramp. And as a toss player you shouldn't worry about third in PvZ; it's really easy to Sim City, man. just simcity and take base yo. Also, you can stack ultras which means you can basically make a choke indefinitely forcefield-proof. the ultra-on-choke idea is very nice indeed, yet i thing the imbalance after third base is quite obvious in close spawn situations. layout is so-so really. so basically you take the four bases close to you, even in close spawn, because it would be terrible to maneuver around if you try to expand away exclusively. expanding towards does not look that bad really, so i think this would be viable. Firstly, why do you think that expanding away from your opponent is not viable? I think they can take it just fine.. They have an advantage from the harrasser in that they have a choke to defend - most of the expansions are singlr entrance. Secondly, the fourths don't have to be standard in every map... And its just that one spawn is difficult, but even so its probably not harder than antiga. Why do you think it is a bad layout? :[ I thought i used chokes and bases appropriately and promoted movement rather than stayinone place and defend. I am not sure if there is a layout that enables all spawns AND is small and cozy thqt is vastly different from this, while promoting movement and not turtle (so no inbase) imbalance is the worng word, sorry. what i want to say is that you do not really have an option for third, there will always be one base to go to first and then you will take the other close by base (your fourth). you will not want to expand away into the next quarter (of the map), because your pathing is a bit odd there. the player with map control will easily dominant expansions that stretch our so far. if you can secure four bases, you basically control even more potentially. that is why i say the layout is so-so. i did not write that i think it is bad! in most game situations the map is played through the middle. it is a bit one dimensional. getting caught on the side path, imagine that. also you can react pretty easily from the area in front of your nat to both third options etc. what i would like to see really (what i think is a better layout) is a more complex pathwork that allows thirds to be controlled, while also a bit harder. try to no have long paths that limit movement too much.
Cross - two thirds to choose from.
Vertical - Also two thirds, although one is more agressive.
Horizontal - One third.
Also as I said after the third base you should be stretched thin. Since as zerg close bases to opponent is unfavorable, They will expand away, Even if the pathing is a bit weird. That being said, I'll remove the xelnaga probably.
I think the thirds are fine as is - Why would you need another pathway to "control" it? a closer defenders path would promote sit back and turtle play.
I agree with the one dimensional concern you have though. I have something in mind, although of that doesnt work out the removal of xelnaga should help with the one dimensional issue.
Btw, the side paths are for counter attacks or runbys, obviously not for 200/200 Armies; And i dont really want 200/200 fights on this map, Its not supposed to happen much in closer positions.
EdIT..
Vertical horizontal was 35 i remember. 42 cross.
Ck is 35 dsybreak 48
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i really like the tileset and the design but as a zergie i dont like the entrace to the third. it just wouldn't be defensible. you could however, rotate the ramp so it points toward the natural...
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On January 03 2013 02:5ChaZzza wrote:
i really like the tileset and the design but as a zergie i dont like the entrace to the third. it just wouldn't be defensible. you could however, rotate the ramp so it points toward the natural...
Oh come on. Why is it impossible to defend? Its only 1 choke to defend. If i move the ramp towards the natural, itd be sooo Turtley. i dont want to promote that.
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You can have both options too, you can add a small ramp leading to the natural and keep the other ramp on the third base, i think that would work wonderfully.
What i don't like that much about the map is that there isn't a real forth base in horizontal spawn positions in a similar manner as it happens in Entombed Valley, but i think that's mostly derivated of the mapmaker's favorite flavor, and as you say you don't really want very long games on the map, so from that angle the map itself doesn't have big obvious issues.
Anywho i was working in a map with a similar theme, but god it's so hard to avoid these white spots near the cliffs (as you can see in the main and natural bases) so i think i will choose a easier texture set instead -.-
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Haha, nice ultralisks.
Are they placed so that they destroy forcefields at the top and bottom of ramp? I mean where you would put 2 forcefields well up on the high ground to block the very top of the ramp.
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maybe but it would still be 1 more forcefield required
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Burrowed ultras is a really cool idea. Should be interesting to see how useful they actually are at that location - most early engages probably won't be near there, and once protoss wants to take that base as a 4th, the ultras will be killable within seconds. I guess it makes an immortal sentry push trying to go through there in horizontal spawn PvZ a little bit more vulnerable, but that would only happen in maybe 5% of all games on the map, and even less in the future when immortal sentry inevitably gets phased out in HOTS.
Still the idea itself is great and has potential I think.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/C19vVAs.png)
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