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[M] (4) Apollo - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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TheFish7
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United States2824 Posts
January 02 2013 23:57 GMT
#21
I really like the use of winding paths to make close spawns more even and viable. But now I am wondering, doesn't that also have the effect of making your 4th base really far away? I am glad to see that you have demonstrated how you can use paths like these to control the distance between areas. This is especially cool for a 4-spawn map which have been relegated to cross spawn only primarily because of the distances you inevitably end up with.
~ ~ <°)))><~ ~ ~
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
January 03 2013 01:12 GMT
#22
On January 03 2013 08:57 TheFish7 wrote:
I really like the use of winding paths to make close spawns more even and viable. But now I am wondering, doesn't that also have the effect of making your 4th base really far away? I am glad to see that you have demonstrated how you can use paths like these to control the distance between areas. This is especially cool for a 4-spawn map which have been relegated to cross spawn only primarily because of the distances you inevitably end up with.

For a map that's too small for adjacent spawns, the only option is to have all paths go through the center or the extreme edge of the map in a loop, buying more distance with zigzags or diagonals. This tends to either make a boring "it's the middle, stupid" type of map, or a map with extremely isolated areas. Or both, as here.

So far this has been avoided for the most part in SC2, but I think at this point in the game's life it'd be more acceptable than previously.
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
Semmo
Profile Joined June 2011
Korea (South)627 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-03 02:28:58
January 03 2013 02:28 GMT
#23
On January 03 2013 07:31 Fatam wrote:
Burrowed ultras is a really cool idea. Should be interesting to see how useful they actually are at that location - most early engages probably won't be near there, and once protoss wants to take that base as a 4th, the ultras will be killable within seconds. I guess it makes an immortal sentry push trying to go through there in horizontal spawn PvZ a little bit more vulnerable, but that would only happen in maybe 5% of all games on the map, and even less in the future when immortal sentry inevitably gets phased out in HOTS.

Still the idea itself is great and has potential I think.



Its a third for vertical spawn. Is used.
Mapmaker of Frost, Fruitland and Bridgehead
Samro225am
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany982 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-03 09:39:54
January 03 2013 09:38 GMT
#24
On January 03 2013 10:12 EatThePath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2013 08:57 TheFish7 wrote:
I really like the use of winding paths to make close spawns more even and viable. But now I am wondering, doesn't that also have the effect of making your 4th base really far away? I am glad to see that you have demonstrated how you can use paths like these to control the distance between areas. This is especially cool for a 4-spawn map which have been relegated to cross spawn only primarily because of the distances you inevitably end up with.

For a map that's too small for adjacent spawns, the only option is to have all paths go through the center or the extreme edge of the map in a loop, buying more distance with zigzags or diagonals. This tends to either make a boring "it's the middle, stupid" type of map, or a map with extremely isolated areas. Or both, as here.

So far this has been avoided for the most part in SC2, but I think at this point in the game's life it'd be more acceptable than previously.


it can be done without crazy paths. With some extra size it should not be a problem.

the long paths create awkward situation where in the end you have a one-path map, where most action goes from base to centre to base.
Semmo
Profile Joined June 2011
Korea (South)627 Posts
January 03 2013 10:28 GMT
#25
On January 03 2013 18:38 Samro225am wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2013 10:12 EatThePath wrote:
On January 03 2013 08:57 TheFish7 wrote:
I really like the use of winding paths to make close spawns more even and viable. But now I am wondering, doesn't that also have the effect of making your 4th base really far away? I am glad to see that you have demonstrated how you can use paths like these to control the distance between areas. This is especially cool for a 4-spawn map which have been relegated to cross spawn only primarily because of the distances you inevitably end up with.

For a map that's too small for adjacent spawns, the only option is to have all paths go through the center or the extreme edge of the map in a loop, buying more distance with zigzags or diagonals. This tends to either make a boring "it's the middle, stupid" type of map, or a map with extremely isolated areas. Or both, as here.

So far this has been avoided for the most part in SC2, but I think at this point in the game's life it'd be more acceptable than previously.


it can be done without crazy paths. With some extra size it should not be a problem.

the long paths create awkward situation where in the end you have a one-path map, where most action goes from base to centre to base.



Nope. the ideas i had with this map isnt like that. You shouldnt just increase size. Thayd make the map empty in other parts. Just increasing the size is very lazy; just for the sake of distance? what about the other components like the location of bases the just how far away bases are from each other? this is not a 16 base map.
Mapmaker of Frost, Fruitland and Bridgehead
Daumen
Profile Joined July 2011
Germany1073 Posts
January 03 2013 13:41 GMT
#26
burrowed ultras... I heard it here first ;D gg
President of the ReaL Fan Club.
Samro225am
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany982 Posts
January 03 2013 14:27 GMT
#27
On January 03 2013 19:28 Semmo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2013 18:38 Samro225am wrote:
On January 03 2013 10:12 EatThePath wrote:
On January 03 2013 08:57 TheFish7 wrote:
I really like the use of winding paths to make close spawns more even and viable. But now I am wondering, doesn't that also have the effect of making your 4th base really far away? I am glad to see that you have demonstrated how you can use paths like these to control the distance between areas. This is especially cool for a 4-spawn map which have been relegated to cross spawn only primarily because of the distances you inevitably end up with.

For a map that's too small for adjacent spawns, the only option is to have all paths go through the center or the extreme edge of the map in a loop, buying more distance with zigzags or diagonals. This tends to either make a boring "it's the middle, stupid" type of map, or a map with extremely isolated areas. Or both, as here.

So far this has been avoided for the most part in SC2, but I think at this point in the game's life it'd be more acceptable than previously.


it can be done without crazy paths. With some extra size it should not be a problem.

the long paths create awkward situation where in the end you have a one-path map, where most action goes from base to centre to base.



Nope. the ideas i had with this map isnt like that. You shouldnt just increase size. Thayd make the map empty in other parts. Just increasing the size is very lazy; just for the sake of distance? what about the other components like the location of bases the just how far away bases are from each other? this is not a 16 base map.


you can achieve 42 cross with mapbound that extend over 144. possibly not square, but still.

you are correct on 12bases and empty space - yet i think the winding path just does not work too well as a features, because the 'connectivity' is so low and as i wrote earlier most action will be back and forth via the middle.
Semmo
Profile Joined June 2011
Korea (South)627 Posts
January 03 2013 14:40 GMT
#28
On January 03 2013 23:27 Samro225am wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2013 19:28 Semmo wrote:
On January 03 2013 18:38 Samro225am wrote:
On January 03 2013 10:12 EatThePath wrote:
On January 03 2013 08:57 TheFish7 wrote:
I really like the use of winding paths to make close spawns more even and viable. But now I am wondering, doesn't that also have the effect of making your 4th base really far away? I am glad to see that you have demonstrated how you can use paths like these to control the distance between areas. This is especially cool for a 4-spawn map which have been relegated to cross spawn only primarily because of the distances you inevitably end up with.

For a map that's too small for adjacent spawns, the only option is to have all paths go through the center or the extreme edge of the map in a loop, buying more distance with zigzags or diagonals. This tends to either make a boring "it's the middle, stupid" type of map, or a map with extremely isolated areas. Or both, as here.

So far this has been avoided for the most part in SC2, but I think at this point in the game's life it'd be more acceptable than previously.


it can be done without crazy paths. With some extra size it should not be a problem.

the long paths create awkward situation where in the end you have a one-path map, where most action goes from base to centre to base.



Nope. the ideas i had with this map isnt like that. You shouldnt just increase size. Thayd make the map empty in other parts. Just increasing the size is very lazy; just for the sake of distance? what about the other components like the location of bases the just how far away bases are from each other? this is not a 16 base map.


you can achieve 42 cross with mapbound that extend over 144. possibly not square, but still.

you are correct on 12bases and empty space - yet i think the winding path just does not work too well as a features, because the 'connectivity' is so low and as i wrote earlier most action will be back and forth via the middle.


im saying that i do not want a map that large. it is unnecesary. Alsp It is 14 bases btw.
And regarding the center - yeah it is fine that most fights happen in the center. The winding paths are not designed for large armies, they are for counter attacks, Strategical moves, and base defense.
Mapmaker of Frost, Fruitland and Bridgehead
Samro225am
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany982 Posts
January 03 2013 16:20 GMT
#29
On January 03 2013 23:40 Semmo wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On January 03 2013 23:27 Samro225am wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2013 19:28 Semmo wrote:
On January 03 2013 18:38 Samro225am wrote:
On January 03 2013 10:12 EatThePath wrote:
On January 03 2013 08:57 TheFish7 wrote:
I really like the use of winding paths to make close spawns more even and viable. But now I am wondering, doesn't that also have the effect of making your 4th base really far away? I am glad to see that you have demonstrated how you can use paths like these to control the distance between areas. This is especially cool for a 4-spawn map which have been relegated to cross spawn only primarily because of the distances you inevitably end up with.

For a map that's too small for adjacent spawns, the only option is to have all paths go through the center or the extreme edge of the map in a loop, buying more distance with zigzags or diagonals. This tends to either make a boring "it's the middle, stupid" type of map, or a map with extremely isolated areas. Or both, as here.

So far this has been avoided for the most part in SC2, but I think at this point in the game's life it'd be more acceptable than previously.


it can be done without crazy paths. With some extra size it should not be a problem.

the long paths create awkward situation where in the end you have a one-path map, where most action goes from base to centre to base.



Nope. the ideas i had with this map isnt like that. You shouldnt just increase size. Thayd make the map empty in other parts. Just increasing the size is very lazy; just for the sake of distance? what about the other components like the location of bases the just how far away bases are from each other? this is not a 16 base map.


you can achieve 42 cross with mapbound that extend over 144. possibly not square, but still.

you are correct on 12bases and empty space - yet i think the winding path just does not work too well as a features, because the 'connectivity' is so low and as i wrote earlier most action will be back and forth via the middle.


im saying that i do not want a map that large. it is unnecesary. Alsp It is 14 bases btw.
And regarding the center - yeah it is fine that most fights happen in the center.
The winding paths are not designed for large armies, they are for counter attacks, Strategical moves, and base defense.


this is it. and this mechancic is exactly what i doubt to work, because these paths are quite separated from the rest, rendering the map into a one-way battlefield.
Semmo
Profile Joined June 2011
Korea (South)627 Posts
January 03 2013 17:17 GMT
#30
Samro// No it is not. There definitely are counter attack paths, although there is the main one as well.
Ypu cant just disregard the other path just because there is emphasis on the center.

With the removal of the xelnaga should alleviate what you think as well.
Mapmaker of Frost, Fruitland and Bridgehead
Gfire
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1699 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-03 22:14:24
January 03 2013 22:11 GMT
#31
Uh... It's probably similar to Shakuras. The mid is a similar size and it seems like a similar distance out to the path on the outside. Kinda like Entombed as well. It's far from broken, and, in my opinion, as least somewhat interesting.

I'm interested to see how this map would play out.

Edit: Why do burrowed ultras stop FFs, though? That's kinda weird. Shouldn't they only break them when they unburrow? It's a clever feature, anyway.

FF-proof terrain is really something that could be quite useful to balance things, especially smaller chokes which can often be used for defenders advantage but favor sentry compositions too much.
all's fair in love and melodies
Targe
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom14103 Posts
January 03 2013 23:36 GMT
#32
Wow. That burrowed Ultra idea is incredible, I seriously hope that gets used in future maps to allow more variance in how chokes can be designed.
11/5/14 CATACLYSM | The South West's worst Falco main
Greendotz
Profile Joined October 2011
United Kingdom2053 Posts
January 04 2013 00:12 GMT
#33
The burrowed ultra idea is ingenious. However, forgive me for been a miserable cynic, but by the time those bases actually become contested odds are the Protoss will have the resources (obs/envision) to quickly dispatch the ultras and be free to FF business as usual? Seems a little gimmicky, but I still love the lateral thinking behind it.
Gfire
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1699 Posts
January 04 2013 01:50 GMT
#34
On January 04 2013 09:12 Greendotz wrote:
The burrowed ultra idea is ingenious. However, forgive me for been a miserable cynic, but by the time those bases actually become contested odds are the Protoss will have the resources (obs/envision) to quickly dispatch the ultras and be free to FF business as usual? Seems a little gimmicky, but I still love the lateral thinking behind it.

I think offensive FFS would be more important to stop, but it would be harder to kill the ultra offensively. Sentry drops, etc. could be deadly on a base like that without them, so it helps for that.
all's fair in love and melodies
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-04 02:16:03
January 04 2013 02:06 GMT
#35
On January 04 2013 07:11 Gfire wrote:
Uh... It's probably similar to Shakuras. The mid is a similar size and it seems like a similar distance out to the path on the outside. Kinda like Entombed as well. It's far from broken, and, in my opinion, as least somewhat interesting.

I'm interested to see how this map would play out.

Edit: Why do burrowed ultras stop FFs, though? That's kinda weird. Shouldn't they only break them when they unburrow? It's a clever feature, anyway.

FF-proof terrain is really something that could be quite useful to balance things, especially smaller chokes which can often be used for defenders advantage but favor sentry compositions too much.

Forcefields actually go underground in a sphere (I think). So the burrowed ultras still block them there. That begs the question, why does a unit but not inanimate dirt and rocks obstruct a forcefield? It must have to do with psi technology and living things interact where simple matter doesn't.
/lore

The "unforcefieldable" mechanic should definitely be used more. It's sort of a gimmick to use burrowed ultras and not just a data/trigger implementation, but it does have a clarity of purpose and implementation that will be relatively easy for an uninitiated player to understand, even though it doesn't make any sense that there are ultralisks burrowed. You might just as well use neutral colossus duplicates with the "nervous twitch" turned off so they're like statues or deactivated colossus. Although that makes them killable without detection. Etc etc. You can also make unforcefieldable ground by using the new bridges with the cliff level feature over level 0 terrain (holes) which you can't cast FF on (or creep over) but are normal terrain in all other respects. You could imitate the footprint type they use and make any other cosmetic touch to the same approach, e.g. alien lilypads over water.

For the record I never thought of burrowed ultras and it's so sick idea.



On January 03 2013 18:38 Samro225am wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2013 10:12 EatThePath wrote:
On January 03 2013 08:57 TheFish7 wrote:
I really like the use of winding paths to make close spawns more even and viable. But now I am wondering, doesn't that also have the effect of making your 4th base really far away? I am glad to see that you have demonstrated how you can use paths like these to control the distance between areas. This is especially cool for a 4-spawn map which have been relegated to cross spawn only primarily because of the distances you inevitably end up with.

For a map that's too small for adjacent spawns, the only option is to have all paths go through the center or the extreme edge of the map in a loop, buying more distance with zigzags or diagonals. This tends to either make a boring "it's the middle, stupid" type of map, or a map with extremely isolated areas. Or both, as here.

So far this has been avoided for the most part in SC2, but I think at this point in the game's life it'd be more acceptable than previously.


it can be done without crazy paths. With some extra size it should not be a problem.

the long paths create awkward situation where in the end you have a one-path map, where most action goes from base to centre to base.

Well, I don't mean that the paths have to be "crazy", I was just generalising the (basic) observation that in order to increase ground distance between vertical and horizontal spawns, you must create obstructions that typically lead to a diagonal path that simply must be either through the middle or along the edge.
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
althaz
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia1001 Posts
January 04 2013 06:21 GMT
#36
On January 02 2013 20:17 Semmo wrote:
Map Name: [M] (4) Apollo

Published in: US, HOTS BETA

Playable Size: 144x144

Overview:
[image loading]

Comments:
All spawns enabled.
Feedback welcome.

- Center base ramps with burrowed ultras, you can't block with one FF.
- Center has 4 ridges. Up and Down.

It's hard to comment on balance as I haven't been playing Hots very long (and I've just been messing around for the most part), but third base seems wicked-hard (not as much for Zerg) to defend because of the direction the ramp faces. Other than looks pretty interesting.
The first rule we don't talk about race conditions. of race conditions is
FlyingBeer
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States262 Posts
January 04 2013 08:04 GMT
#37
What's the distance from the natural's ramp to the third's ramp? Antiga Shipyard and Shakuras Plateau have similar features, but on both, the ramp is much closer. Is blinking possible from the third to the main? And in how many places? Tal'darim Altar and Whirlwind have the same issue of short air from third to main with a long ground distance but both make up for it by being large maps, and I don't think the ground vs. air difference is as large as it is here. Tal'darim and Whirlwind also features large ramps vs the small ones on this map. So you've got several features that favor 2 base air play more strongly than any maps in current competitive usage.
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
January 04 2013 09:42 GMT
#38
On January 04 2013 17:04 FlyingBeer wrote:
What's the distance from the natural's ramp to the third's ramp? Antiga Shipyard and Shakuras Plateau have similar features, but on both, the ramp is much closer. Is blinking possible from the third to the main? And in how many places? Tal'darim Altar and Whirlwind have the same issue of short air from third to main with a long ground distance but both make up for it by being large maps, and I don't think the ground vs. air difference is as large as it is here. Tal'darim and Whirlwind also features large ramps vs the small ones on this map. So you've got several features that favor 2 base air play more strongly than any maps in current competitive usage.

I wish there was more feedback like this in the map forums.
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
Semmo
Profile Joined June 2011
Korea (South)627 Posts
January 04 2013 10:47 GMT
#39
On January 04 2013 17:04 FlyingBeer wrote:
What's the distance from the natural's ramp to the third's ramp? Antiga Shipyard and Shakuras Plateau have similar features, but on both, the ramp is much closer. Is blinking possible from the third to the main? And in how many places? Tal'darim Altar and Whirlwind have the same issue of short air from third to main with a long ground distance but both make up for it by being large maps, and I don't think the ground vs. air difference is as large as it is here. Tal'darim and Whirlwind also features large ramps vs the small ones on this map. So you've got several features that favor 2 base air play more strongly than any maps in current competitive usage.


8~9 Seconds.
You are right about the air. It is one of the first things I thought of when I made the map. I definitely think one must invest more in air defense on this map - I hope this favors more skilled players.

You cannot blink from third, although this could change since I may enlarge the main.
Mapmaker of Frost, Fruitland and Bridgehead
Semmo
Profile Joined June 2011
Korea (South)627 Posts
January 23 2013 08:16 GMT
#40
Map Update:
[image loading]
- Mains Enlarged
- Aesthetic Changes. Also on the 12 o' clock and 6 o' clock ramps, rocks has been added to show that it's unforcefieldable.

[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]
Mapmaker of Frost, Fruitland and Bridgehead
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