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91 Posts
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The main is extremely small. Fill it out into the corner -- if you use up most of that dead space it'll be about big enough.
The 3rd base is extremely open, but it's also very close. Not sure this will be balanced.
The 4th base has one entrance and is easier to take than the 3rd base. And it has a tower. Add another entrance at the very least.
I'd like to see an additional pathway or wider paths through the center. In the late game it'll be impossible to attack through one of those bridges into a deathball (of any race). I know you can "go around" but it's very easy to reposition to meet the attempted flank. You could place a wall of spines, cannons, or PFs early on for great value and fortify as the game goes on, making it very turtley. Maybe this is interesting? Leading to big drops / recall etc? But I think it'd make for very slow and do-nothing games most of the time.
The last expansion is quite far removed from the opponent. They have to gain one of the middle bridges in order to attack it without drops/air, so it's a free base like the 4th and 5th insofar as it doesn't require anything extra of the defending player besides a little static defense which is normal for lategame bases anyway, while they continue to hold the middle and keep tabs on the enemy army. To address this, and to also address the above easy mapsplit syndrome, what if that last base was an island? This would make it far more neutral in terms of letting either player take it viably, and it would also undermine the obvious map split making for much more interesting strategic possibilities. It would also increase the requirements on taking the 6th base if you expand through the other base progression normally.
To address the openness, I agree those paths are wide enough for general purposes but what I'm saying above has to do with the map split, if that makes sense.
I also mark the middle with xwt while i'm building. ^^
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91 Posts
Wow thanks dude! I think I'll probably take a lot of those ideas and use em :o the island idea has blown my already blown mind. Would you add rocks on the base if it's an island map?
See the image for what I take best makes sense of your suggestion. What you think of it btw?
- The main would be bigger.
- There would be an obstruction of sorts in front of the third to make it less open.
- By pushing the 6th into an island position I could probly rotate the 5th to be where it shows on the picture. Would give room to make a nice ramp for the 4th.
- The backdoory crossings next to the naturals look similar to what the shattered temple had, so dunno how well they could work here.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/SpKhX.jpg)
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I like everything you drew except for the rocks backdoor to the nat. I think the big strength of this map (and its identity) is the middle and how it determines the whole outlook of the map. The backdoor would make too much circle syndrome in general and could cause some base-racey side effects as well. So I don't think it's needed even though just looking at the main, nat, 3rd options in a vacuum it looks okay, even cool.
If you put an obstruction in front of the 3rd you might need to make the map a little bigger for enough space, or use a small thing so you don't cramp the space too much. Still need ample space around the center.
I really like the placement of the additional ramp at 4th and relocation of the 5th base. Make sure you can't tank the 5th from the island.
I think the watchtower should be moved to below the cliff instead of above it. Although with the new ramp they are way more accessible so maybe it's okay. It's still a really easy defensive bonus for the 3rd/4th base. Also this map would be great without watchtowers too.
edit: rocks on island, I have no idea. It needs some kind of obstruction or else terran imba. The creep on metropolis was OP since zerg could have 1-2 nydus bases and play a base trade game way too easily. But they were also really far away, it might be okay to use a creep tumor here since they are much closer in general, especially if you can access them with blink. Default rocks would probably make them way too hard to use and would be avoided 95% of the time. You can also use mineral patches to force drop tech / nydus, might be the best option.
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I don't like the islands, never like islands. In my opinion remove the islands.
I don't see the natural rocks a problem. I see what you are saying EatThePath with the identity, but I think this thin channel just adds a bit more to the map. Can create more scenarios than the boring mid fights. Maybe even open up different play styles for the map. Like taking your 3rd on the other side of the divide against Terran, but not Zerg or Protoss because forcefields/infestors at that gap will just be a game ender etc. You could take it against Terran and play the aggressive style straight from your 3rd up to him. Problem with most maps is there is an obvious 3rd, I think maps should try and open this up. Even if it is for 1 race. Most fights will still be concentrated in the middle anyway.
I do like the idea of not having a watch tower. 1 ling at each crossing for the zerg is enough to see. That might be fun to have a look at.
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EDIT: Ok, I read the map wrong :D Nevermind.
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On October 10 2012 07:31 Iroh wrote:
I don't like the islands, never like islands. In my opinion remove the islands.
I don't see the natural rocks a problem. I see what you are saying EatThePath with the identity, but I think this thin channel just adds a bit more to the map. Can create more scenarios than the boring mid fights. Maybe even open up different play styles for the map. Like taking your 3rd on the other side of the divide against Terran, but not Zerg or Protoss because forcefields/infestors at that gap will just be a game ender etc. You could take it against Terran and play the aggressive style straight from your 3rd up to him. Problem with most maps is there is an obvious 3rd, I think maps should try and open this up. Even if it is for 1 race. Most fights will still be concentrated in the middle anyway.
I do like the idea of not having a watch tower. 1 ling at each crossing for the zerg is enough to see. That might be fun to have a look at.
This is totally legitimate (even good/better) way to go. The only thing you have to watch out for is the circle syndrome you invite by opening up completely viable dual-direction expansion pattern. This would necessitate you redesign the high ground 4th base a little so that the map can be more than "3 bases what now". Probably biggest item for the CS is that zerg will have to sacrifice their 3rd base at some point because their opponent will expand towards them and eventually be able to knock it out over the close distance. Either a big attack or a secondary attack while you do a main push elsewhere. They would have to reactively expand in the other direction to match the opponent's expansion pattern. (This is fine if you make it work properly, aka the possible timings aren't too fast.)
Islands was the easiest thing that came to mind for solving these issues but more intricate thinking could find other solutions. ^^
And I happen to like islands. ^^
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91 Posts
On October 10 2012 12:45 EatThePath wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 07:31 Iroh wrote:
I don't like the islands, never like islands. In my opinion remove the islands.
I don't see the natural rocks a problem. I see what you are saying EatThePath with the identity, but I think this thin channel just adds a bit more to the map. Can create more scenarios than the boring mid fights. Maybe even open up different play styles for the map. Like taking your 3rd on the other side of the divide against Terran, but not Zerg or Protoss because forcefields/infestors at that gap will just be a game ender etc. You could take it against Terran and play the aggressive style straight from your 3rd up to him. Problem with most maps is there is an obvious 3rd, I think maps should try and open this up. Even if it is for 1 race. Most fights will still be concentrated in the middle anyway.
I do like the idea of not having a watch tower. 1 ling at each crossing for the zerg is enough to see. That might be fun to have a look at. This is totally legitimate (even good/better) way to go. The only thing you have to watch out for is the circle syndrome you invite by opening up completely viable dual-direction expansion pattern. This would necessitate you redesign the high ground 4th base a little so that the map can be more than "3 bases what now". Probably biggest item for the CS is that zerg will have to sacrifice their 3rd base at some point because their opponent will expand towards them and eventually be able to knock it out over the close distance. Either a big attack or a secondary attack while you do a main push elsewhere. They would have to reactively expand in the other direction to match the opponent's expansion pattern. (This is fine if you make it work properly, aka the possible timings aren't too fast.) Islands was the easiest thing that came to mind for solving these issues but more intricate thinking could find other solutions. ^^ And I happen to like islands. ^^
And I'm like the neutral planet, with no strong feelings either way towards islands. I've made some changes (most of the ones I drew out). I still want to work on some other small things first before I post it up. But thanks for the post man! Mega insight is much appreciated.
In the end I've taken them out though, but will first see how it plays and looks once the 3rd and 4th changes are added.
On October 10 2012 08:09 VoirDire wrote:
EDIT: Ok, I read the map wrong :D Nevermind.
Not sure if that is a good or bad thing! lol
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91 Posts
I've updated the OP with new pics. The shape of the base behind the rocks doesn't seem right to me. Doesn't look very natural, but that's a minor change i reckon. Also the map bounds aren't as big as the picture might suggest.
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I really don't like natural rocks there. They are in a location that is not immediately supported by defense that attack path to them is a little too direct.
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Islands are super polarizing... it's a pain in the ass to saturate an island, and it either remains hidden or is discovered, at which point it's pretty much impossible to retreat with your workers, thus making you lose everything on the island. Once a player drops on the island it's hard for a second player to do so... so it commits a large chunk of your units or sacrifices an entire base to a simple drop. I suppose this is not something that is created by any other type of terrain, and is therefore interesting...
Terrans have the saturation advantage of mules and the potential to fly buildings, so they are the least affected by the polarization of islands and thus benefit the most from the potential of a hidden expo.
Zergs can use nydus canals (who would have thought?!) to easily start, saturate, and retreat from island expos. If nydus worms didn't SCREAM every time they came up then it would be much more legitimate. Some GSL islands have creep tumors so that creep is on the island to help balance it out for zerg by requiring a terran to drop/scan in order to expand there.
Protoss can warp in, which is often used to defend against drops, but then have to get their units out of there.
The longer that I go on writing this post the more I like islands, oh well 
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91 Posts
I've updated the OP to show all the new changes! I've also published it now under the name: YGL Ash'Arak! EU only for now.
A couple of friends and I plan on playing it and changing it, so none of the changes are final! Any feedback will be much appreciated!
On October 11 2012 03:19 RFDaemoniac wrote:Islands are super polarizing... it's a pain in the ass to saturate an island, and it either remains hidden or is discovered, at which point it's pretty much impossible to retreat with your workers, thus making you lose everything on the island. Once a player drops on the island it's hard for a second player to do so... so it commits a large chunk of your units or sacrifices an entire base to a simple drop. I suppose this is not something that is created by any other type of terrain, and is therefore interesting... Terrans have the saturation advantage of mules and the potential to fly buildings, so they are the least affected by the polarization of islands and thus benefit the most from the potential of a hidden expo. Zergs can use nydus canals (who would have thought?!) to easily start, saturate, and retreat from island expos. If nydus worms didn't SCREAM every time they came up then it would be much more legitimate. Some GSL islands have creep tumors so that creep is on the island to help balance it out for zerg by requiring a terran to drop/scan in order to expand there. Protoss can warp in, which is often used to defend against drops, but then have to get their units out of there. The longer that I go on writing this post the more I like islands, oh well
Hmm well for now I've opted to remove islands from the map There are multiple things for and against them and in the grand scheme of things they aren't essential for my map I believe. Thanks tho!
On October 11 2012 03:12 lorestarcraft wrote:
I really don't like natural rocks there. They are in a location that is not immediately supported by defense that attack path to them is a little too direct.
A couple of play tests i did made it alright to defend vs the rocks. I've left them in there for now, but will deffo put more thought into it thanks!
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I love the look of this map! To me, a diamond player, it looks balanced and like the current ladder maps. But with a very interesting layout, especially the middle.
The thing with this map is I think it will make certain builds strong. As long as not "OP" though that is really good, means variety!
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Workers have to go behind the mineral line to reach one of the mineral patches at the 10 and 4 o'clock bases.
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91 Posts
On October 18 2012 05:00 Joroh wrote:
I love the look of this map! To me, a diamond player, it looks balanced and like the current ladder maps. But with a very interesting layout, especially the middle.
The thing with this map is I think it will make certain builds strong. As long as not "OP" though that is really good, means variety!
Thanks man, glad you like it!
On October 18 2012 15:19 Jebediah wrote:
Workers have to go behind the mineral line to reach one of the mineral patches at the 10 and 4 o'clock bases.
Doh! Thanks! lol
I've fixed the mineral issue, published fixed version.
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