|
The mods are no longer hosted on Battle.net. You may download them here, although they are no longer guaranteed to function after any given patch.
High Ground Advantage - Miss Rates
Added High Ground Ranger - Reduced Range
Added High Ground Defender - Reduced Damage
Don't use any of the mods together, they all edit very similar portions of the Liberty (Melee) data library.
High Ground Advantage
What is the High Ground Advantage Mod?
It's a plug and play mod that immediately adds Brood War style high ground miss rates to your map. It was created in order to offer it to Barrin who's working hard on his FRB idea, but I figured there's no reason not to offer it to anyone who wants to see it or use it.
What exactly does it do?
It adds an adjustable miss wrapper to all ranged ground attacks. This miss wrapper controls the chance that attack has to hit a ground target on higher cliff levels. The default setting for all affected attacks is a 53% chance to hit except for the Colossus' Thermal Lance and special attacks such as 250mm Strike Cannon and Sniper Round which default to 100%.
How do you adjust the chance to hit yourself?
After adding the mod to your map, open up the data module and go to the effects tab. Find the associated Miss Wrapper(s)* and change the Chance field to whatever hit rate you'd like.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Z9ycr.png)
Any special considerations?
Yes.
- Attacks that strike multiple targets (Sieged Tank, Hellion, Colossus) or hit multiple times (Thor, Queen, Reaper) test whether they hit or not on each hit for each target separately
- Colossus defaults to counting as an air unit for the purposes of missing/being missed, but you can change that
- The mod is entirely data based, no triggers.
- Even if an attack misses, players will still receive the normal "under attack" warnings
- Several attack actors and weapons were adjusted to maintain the normal look of the game
Which units have miss wrappers?
+ Show Spoiler [These ones] +
Marine
Marauder
Ghost
Hellion
Siege Tank (Tank)
Siege Tank (Sieged)
Viking (Assault Mode)
Thor
Planetary Fortress
Missile Turret
Auto-Turret
Queen
Roach
Hydralisk
Spine Crawler
Spore Crawler
Infested Terran
Stalker
Sentry
Archon
Immortal
Colossus
Photon Cannon
How do I add the mod to my map?
- Open your map in the editor.
- File->Dependencies
- Add Other (Battle.net, may have to log in)
- Select High Ground Advantage
- Optionally, make any adjustments to the miss wrappers you'd like
High Ground Ranger
What is the High Ground Ranger Mod?
A adjustable plug and play mod that reduces the range of ground units attacking up a cliff at other ground units.
How do you adjust the range difference yourself?
Change the Weapon - Range field of the corresponding Low Ground weapon.
Any special considerations?
Yes.
- The default setting reduces all ground unit ranges by 1 when attacking up a cliff
- Colossus defaults to counting as an air unit for the purposes of ranging/being ranged, but you can change that
- The mod is entirely data based, no triggers.
- The mod doesn't allow increasing high ground to low ground range because that would obviously cause major balance issues on most maps
- Several attack actors and weapons were adjusted to maintain the normal look of the game
How do I add the mod to my map?
- Open your map in the editor.
- File->Dependencies
- Add Other (Battle.net, may have to log in)
- Select High Ground Ranger
- Optionally, make any adjustments to the weapon ranges you'd like
High Ground Defender
What is the High Ground Defender Mod?
A adjustable plug and play mod that reduces the damage of ground units attacking up a cliff at other ground units.
How do you adjust the damage reduction yourself?
Change the Damage Response - Modify Factor field of the High Ground Defender buff. Additionally, you must change the Armor Reduction to be the same as the Modify Factor for all Low damage effects. Copy and paste is your friend.
Any special considerations?
Yes.
- The default setting reduces all ground unit damage by 30% when attacking up a cliff
- Colossus defaults to counting as an air unit for the purposes of damaging/being damaged, but you can change that
- The mod is entirely data based, no triggers.
- Several attack actors and weapons were adjusted to maintain the normal look of the game
How do I add the mod to my map?
- Open your map in the editor.
- File->Dependencies
- Add Other (Battle.net, may have to log in)
- Select High Ground Defender
- Optionally, make any adjustments to the damage/armor factors you'd like
|
I hereby disagree with BW high ground and demand
-1 range for units on the low ground shooting high
+1 range for units on the high ground shooting low
|
On May 07 2012 16:29 50bani wrote:
I hereby disagree with BW high ground and demand
-1 range for units on the low ground shooting high
+1 range for units on the high ground shooting low
You just love marines, don't you? DON'T YOU?
I misread that as +/- 1 ranged damage.
|
To be honest I really think you should first try to make this affect all units equally, because until then you will create some weird scenarios such as where people will be happy to harass cliffs with colossi but won't use siege tanks from the low ground. Don't get me wrong it is a nice experiment but I feel you're severely limiting the usefulness of it by not fixing these issues.
|
Why do you want to make the gayest Deathball long range unit by Protoss highground independent? That seems kinda counterproductive.
|
On May 07 2012 17:18 Ragoo wrote:
Why do you want to make the gayest Deathball long range unit by Protoss highground independent? That seems kinda counterproductive.
Clean up your language d00d.
But yeah, shouldn't it just be same miss chance?
Good work anyway. FF on ramps going to be so OP, aka fun. XD
|
On May 07 2012 17:18 Ragoo wrote:
Why do you want to make the happiest Deathball long range unit by Protoss highground independent? That seems kinda counterproductive.
The Colossus enjoys none of the limitations of a ground unit besides not being able to walk over the void. It has air vision, is attackable by air, and ignores cliffs. It is essentially the Protoss air unit. If it could miss against higher ground, people would complain. If it couldn't miss against higher ground, other people would complain.
It doesn't matter, though, because if you read the OP you'd see the part where anyone can set any of the values (including the Colossus') to whatever they want. That's the point of the mod. It's adjustable. All the work has been done, you just set a number.
On May 07 2012 17:14 XenoX101 wrote:
To be honest I really think you should first try to make this affect all units equally, because until then you will create some weird scenarios such as where people will be happy to harass cliffs with colossi but won't use siege tanks from the low ground. Don't get me wrong it is a nice experiment but I feel you're severely limiting the usefulness of it by not fixing these issues.
Only Blizzard can add things to the editor that aren't already there. There's no built-in high ground miss chance variable you can set, otherwise the mod would be pointless. If they should all be equal, set them all to be equal. Even if you could, it puts a smile on my face to read that "allowing variability" limits the usefulness. The exact opposite is true.
This is a tool, not a commandment. The mod adds the ability for you to very easily experiment with high ground miss rates. It doesn't force any of its default numbers on you. They're just default. You can edit them inside each map.
If you'd like a different default where all of the values are 33%, you are free to download the mod, change its values, and reupload it with the name "The Besterest High Ground Advantage"!
|
While the prospect of High Ground Advantage intrigues me, I can't say I approve of making it a chance to miss like in BW. Random elements like that have no place in a skill-based game. Imagine a scenario where a more powerful low ground army decides to rush against the high ground army and wins simply due to luck.
If a lesser skilled player can just say "screw it!", roll a dice and hope to win against a higher skilled player I don't see this mod catching on.
|
On May 07 2012 19:00 devius26 wrote:
While the prospect of High Ground Advantage intrigues me, I can't say I approve of making it a chance to miss like in BW. Random elements like that have no place in a skill-based game. Imagine a scenario where a more powerful low ground army decides to rush against the high ground army and wins simply due to luck.
If a lesser skilled player can just say "screw it!", roll a dice and hope to win against a higher skilled player I don't see this mod catching on.
Starcraft is pretty deep into chances. Did you know attack rates are dictated by chance? For example, the time required before a marine can fire its weapon after already having fired it once isn't set in stone.
When a lot of little chances occur very frequently, they tend to average out.
|
I agree with the way you handled the colossus's attack since it is treated as an air unit for the high/low ground mechanic in SC2. I cannot test it right now, but I have some simple questions regarding the colossus.
1. In SC2, air units (and the colossus) on the high ground are revealed if they attack units on the low ground. This would mean that, in your mod, there should be no miss chance when attacking a colossus. This is not currently the case, is it?
2. Does your mod affect "ground-to-air" attacks? Because photon cannon is on your list, but spore crawler and missile turrent aren't. Do units which can attack both ground and air targets such as the photon cannon treat the colossus as air (100% hit chance?) or ground unit (53% hit chance?).
|
On May 07 2012 20:22 S1eth wrote:
I agree with the way you handled the colossus's attack since it is treated as an air unit for the high/low ground mechanic in SC2. I cannot test it right now, but I have some simple questions regarding the colossus.
1. In SC2, air units (and the colossus) on the high ground are revealed if they attack units on the low ground. This would mean that, in your mod, there should be no miss chance when attacking a colossus. This is not currently the case, is it?
2. Does your mod affect "ground-to-air" attacks? Because photon cannon is on your list, but spore crawler and missile turrent aren't. Do units which can attack both ground and air targets such as the photon cannon treat the colossus as air (100% hit chance?) or ground unit (53% hit chance?).
The colossus is treated as a ground unit when being considered as a high ground defender (i.e., it can be missed). It is possible to count it is as an air unit instead by adding a Target Unit Type = Colossus validator to the Can't Miss validator.
That same Can't Miss validator also prevents attacks from considering a miss against flying units. So even if an attack has a miss wrapper, it's never used against flying units. If you exclude the Colossus from the high ground defender advantage, a Photon Cannon would always hit. The reason AA towers don't have a miss wrapper is because it would be redundant. They can only hit air, so the Can't Miss validator would always bypass the miss wrapper.
I want to emphasize that the mod is meant to be tweaked. The Colossus is an obvious lightning rod for argument one way or the other, so I don't consider it my place to tell you how that should work. If you believe that a trait of the Colossus definitely groups it with flying units in all aspects, that's very simple to do using the mod.
Edit: Actually, I see your point. GtA attacks should have miss wrappers so you can fully control how they behave while attacking Colossi.
The mod will be updated (once publishing servers are online) to add miss wrappers to the AA of Spore Crawler, Missile Turret, Thor, and Queen (all defaulted to 53%). In the same vein of giving full control to the mapper, miss wrappers have been added to 250mm Strike Cannon (damage only) and Sniper Round (both defaulted to 100%). Additionally, the Colossus now defaults to defending as an air unit (meaning it can't be missed no matter what the elevation difference is). You can revert this change simply by removing the "Is Colossus" validator from the "Can't Miss" validator.
|
Can you make one map, I would like to try it.
Make one normal and one 6m.
Thank
|
On May 07 2012 22:42 Gyro_SC2 wrote:
Can you make one map, I would like to try it.
Make one normal and one 6m.
Thank
My map load is quite full of Bx Monobattle maps. You can make one for yourself though, just follow the instructions. It's very easy.
|
Ok , I made one!
6m hyg HA Cloud Kingdom LE
US server
HA stand for High Ground Advantage
|
Looks like you did it right. Thanks for putting one up, I suppose it'd let people see what it's like without too much bother.
|
I would much rather prefer a Damage reduction over miss chance,
but still I am very happy to see that people try to make the game better!
|
I think chances in an E-sport is just dumb, you should try to figure something new, not copy from BW. If you want to play BW go play it, but if you want to play SC2 you should think of something else, like -1 range to those hitting high ground units (this I think is the best thing to do).
|
On May 08 2012 01:02 moskonia wrote:
I think chances in an E-sport is just dumb, you should try to figure something new, not copy from BW. If you want to play BW go play it, but if you want to play SC2 you should think of something else, like -1 range to those hitting high ground units (this I think is the best thing to do).
I hate to break it to you, but there's already RNG programmed into quite a few things in SC2 already. And they're random things that can't be used to your advantage. Is it really so "dumb" that one random element be usable in a smart way?
The high ground miss chance doesn't guarantee X amount of advantage. What it does guarantee is an advantage.
And this isn't the only mechanic that's ever been used before. Increasing or reducing damage, increasing or decreasing range, these are all mechanics that would have been "copied" from a pre-existing RTS. I recommend that you try it first. It's not a roll of the dice at all.
I will, however, throw out another mod that reduces low ground range by 1. I suppose there's no harm in having something to compare it to.
And happy birthday.
|
Thanks ^^ even though it is only tomorrow (time difference  ).
About RNG, what random things exist today? I don't know any except the random spawn location and the random race.
|
On May 08 2012 03:42 moskonia wrote:Thanks ^^ even though it is only tomorrow (time difference ). About RNG, what random things exist today? I don't know any except the random spawn location and the random race.
You're probably reading about it in the FRB thread right now.
It seems I'll also be able to do one mod with straight up damage reduction, if my idea pans out. I'll have both that and the range mod up hopefully within a day or maybe two.
|
ok, i try 53 % and i don't like it. It looks too much like the original. The players still cannot have a solid defensif position.
I change my map, units on the low ground hit only 10%. Its more extrem but i like extrem exemple to see what is the difference.
name: 6m hyg HA Cloud Kingdom LE
|
On May 08 2012 01:02 moskonia wrote:
I think chances in an E-sport is just dumb, you should try to figure something new, not copy from BW. If you want to play BW go play it, but if you want to play SC2 you should think of something else, like -1 range to those hitting high ground units (this I think is the best thing to do).
Cause RNG worked out so poorly in BW...
On May 08 2012 04:35 Gyro_SC2 wrote:
ok, i try 53 % and i don't like it. It looks too much like the original. The players still cannot have a solid defensif position.
I change my map, units on the low ground hit only 10%. Its more extrem but i like extrem exemple to see what is the difference.
name: 6m hyg HA Cloud Kingdom LE
Are you sure you implemented it correctly?? 47% miss chance should be pretty noticeable...
|
Why not have units just do 53% of their normal damage when attacking from low to high ground? It achieves the exact same effect but with no randomness at all.
|
[QUOTE]On May 08 2012 06:06 EatThePath wrote:
Are you sure you implemented it correctly?? 47% miss chance should be pretty noticeable...[QUOTE]
You should try it.
|
50% damage reduction = 50% miss chance, which is fucking huge! you guys are forgetting that in BW when a unit from high ground attacked you, you had vision of it, but in SC2 it is not like it, therefore the reduction should be lower, much lower. Or you can copy the thing where a unit is revealed while attacking, which means you simply copied off BW, which again I think is silly since if you want to play BW you don't have to turn SC2 into it.
|
50% damage reduction != 50% miss chance because of the number of hits that it takes to kill a unit (perhaps it does work for 50% but not for 10% or 53%), plus with 50% what do you do in the case of odd numbers?
|
nkashbvfskahfwfsbhflalawhfbdlvhfadlfvhewf
That is my opinion of the sudden "lets make SC2 into SC:BW2" opinion floating around. There are a lot of things to consider when you want to change something like this, everything from late game upgrades being different to unit movement speed, map sizes, damage, DPS, health, etc. To simply say "lets take one thing that kinda worked in BW, and sorta apply it to SC2 in a different way" is like saying "if these wheels work on a car, they'll work on a commercial airliner as landing gear".
This isn't Brood War, guys. Those days are over, or at the very least, they're bleeding out. When the Blizzard dev team decided to change this between games, it's not like they said "fuck that, too hard to code." They sat down, talked about why it would work and why it wouldn't, crunched numbers, and conceptualized it and its alternatives. Does an entire team of professional developers always get every detail right? No, absolutely not. But needless to say, every other detail somehow links back into this one. Every detail is in some way related to most or all other details.
The problem with the FRB idea in and of itself is that it neglects this idea. Unit cost is based on income, which helps (read: does not determine, only helps to) determine how "useful" a unit is. What kind of abilities it has, how much food it uses, etc***. Yeah, little price changes have occurred over the years, but nothing dramatic. If they halved the cost of the marine, would they not also halve its effectiveness? FRB can only work because it exploits the singular overarching flaw in the 8m2g logic, which is to strap the player onto a rocket and blow him out of the early game.
*** The cost of a unit both determines its abilities and is determined by a unit's ability, depending on which way you look at it. If you want to change the effectiveness of a unit (on a large scale), you must also change its cost. If you wish to change the cost of a unit (on a large scale), you must also change its effectiveness. The 300 mineral marine must kick serious ass, and the 50 mineral Thor must shoot blanks.
|
Nice work. Shame this thread is becoming what it is when it should be discussing the mod at hand rather than the validity of the FRB mod.
Is this possible? (from the FRB mod thread)
On May 08 2012 06:24 EatThePath wrote:
I thought it'd be really cool if there was an audio cue for misses that was distinct for different types of fire. Like a marine shot miss would sound like a bullet whiz in an FPS. And a marauder grenade miss would sound like a whoosh. Is it just me, or would that not be epic?
|
On May 08 2012 13:53 Chargelot wrote:
nkashbvfskahfwfsbhflalawhfbdlvhfadlfvhewf
That is my opinion of the sudden "lets make SC2 into SC:BW2" opinion floating around. There are a lot of things to consider when you want to change something like this, everything from late game upgrades being different to unit movement speed, map sizes, damage, DPS, health, etc. To simply say "lets take one thing that kinda worked in BW, and sorta apply it to SC2 in a different way" is like saying "if these wheels work on a car, they'll work on a commercial airliner as landing gear".
This isn't Brood War, guys. Those days are over, or at the very least, they're bleeding out. When the Blizzard dev team decided to change this between games, it's not like they said "fuck that, too hard to code." They sat down, talked about why it would work and why it wouldn't, crunched numbers, and conceptualized it and its alternatives. Does an entire team of professional developers always get every detail right? No, absolutely not. But needless to say, every other detail somehow links back into this one. Every detail is in some way related to most or all other details.
The problem with the FRB idea in and of itself is that it neglects this idea. Unit cost is based on income, which helps (read: does not determine, only helps to) determine how "useful" a unit is. What kind of abilities it has, how much food it uses, etc***. Yeah, little price changes have occurred over the years, but nothing dramatic. If they halved the cost of the marine, would they not also halve its effectiveness? FRB can only work because it exploits the singular overarching flaw in the 8m2g logic, which is to strap the player onto a rocket and blow him out of the early game.
*** The cost of a unit both determines its abilities and is determined by a unit's ability, depending on which way you look at it. If you want to change the effectiveness of a unit (on a large scale), you must also change its cost. If you wish to change the cost of a unit (on a large scale), you must also change its effectiveness. The 300 mineral marine must kick serious ass, and the 50 mineral Thor must shoot blanks.
fairly ridiculous opinion/post.
the point of these mods are to try. see what happens. if there's glaring problems they can be addressed and the idea progresses.
the main reason Blizzard removed stuff like random miss chance is because it's not obvious. they dumbed the game down so new players know immediately. they dont need to learn about miss chance or anything. it's immediately obvious. it's fine. from their perspective. not from mine unfortunately. i think the cost is too great for this "clarity" Blizzard so desire in their games.
|
On May 08 2012 16:19 nekoconeco wrote:Nice work. Shame this thread is becoming what it is when it should be discussing the mod at hand rather than the validity of the FRB mod. Is this possible? (from the FRB mod thread) Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 06:24 EatThePath wrote:
I thought it'd be really cool if there was an audio cue for misses that was distinct for different types of fire. Like a marine shot miss would sound like a bullet whiz in an FPS. And a marauder grenade miss would sound like a whoosh. Is it just me, or would that not be epic?
I don't have the skills necessary to whip up appropriate sound bites. There'd also be splash damage and multi-hit attacks that'd have to be considered. Since these miss/hit on a per target per hit basis and sometimes they only have one visual for all of them...yeah. I don't really want to go reinventing how the game feels when people are so used to it.
What I could do is flash a small text tag that says MISS, like when you cancel a building. Not sure how that'd feel but I'll consider putting it in as an option anyways.
|
On May 08 2012 16:34 MavercK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 13:53 Chargelot wrote:
nkashbvfskahfwfsbhflalawhfbdlvhfadlfvhewf
That is my opinion of the sudden "lets make SC2 into SC:BW2" opinion floating around. There are a lot of things to consider when you want to change something like this, everything from late game upgrades being different to unit movement speed, map sizes, damage, DPS, health, etc. To simply say "lets take one thing that kinda worked in BW, and sorta apply it to SC2 in a different way" is like saying "if these wheels work on a car, they'll work on a commercial airliner as landing gear".
This isn't Brood War, guys. Those days are over, or at the very least, they're bleeding out. When the Blizzard dev team decided to change this between games, it's not like they said "fuck that, too hard to code." They sat down, talked about why it would work and why it wouldn't, crunched numbers, and conceptualized it and its alternatives. Does an entire team of professional developers always get every detail right? No, absolutely not. But needless to say, every other detail somehow links back into this one. Every detail is in some way related to most or all other details.
The problem with the FRB idea in and of itself is that it neglects this idea. Unit cost is based on income, which helps (read: does not determine, only helps to) determine how "useful" a unit is. What kind of abilities it has, how much food it uses, etc***. Yeah, little price changes have occurred over the years, but nothing dramatic. If they halved the cost of the marine, would they not also halve its effectiveness? FRB can only work because it exploits the singular overarching flaw in the 8m2g logic, which is to strap the player onto a rocket and blow him out of the early game.
*** The cost of a unit both determines its abilities and is determined by a unit's ability, depending on which way you look at it. If you want to change the effectiveness of a unit (on a large scale), you must also change its cost. If you wish to change the cost of a unit (on a large scale), you must also change its effectiveness. The 300 mineral marine must kick serious ass, and the 50 mineral Thor must shoot blanks. fairly ridiculous opinion/post. the point of these mods are to try. see what happens. if there's glaring problems they can be addressed and the idea progresses. the main reason Blizzard removed stuff like random miss chance is because it's not obvious. they dumbed the game down so new players know immediately. they dont need to learn about miss chance or anything. it's immediately obvious. it's fine. from their perspective. not from mine unfortunately. i think the cost is too great for this "clarity" Blizzard so desire in their games.
The reason doesn't matter. It's completely invalid. It has nothing to do with my point. It's a part of the chain of logic. Break a link, and what happens? The chain falls apart. Whether or not you agree with the way it is, all of the logic of the game ties into itself at every stage. If you change one thing like this, it can create subtle or extremely dramatic changes. But eventually you'll notice a trend of the game breaking down and not quite working the way it should. Units will be blamed as being OP or UP. Spells will be too strong from low ground, nonspell casters will look pathetic by comparison. The entire game is balanced on the fact that units will always hit. Again, it doesn't matter if you like it or not, but it's the reality of the situation. You'd be better off making the whole game from scratch.
Also, as always Urashimakt, if you want me to throw this up on EU I will.
|
4713 Posts
I agree with the need to add more high ground advantage in order to make FRB and in essence SC2 better, but I don't agree with adding RNG.
Anything that is random is bad in a game that is supposed to be as much about precision and execution. So, my suggestion is make units firing from low ground to high ground get a damage penalty proportional to their attack.
In essence it would work like getting a -1 weapon damage upgrade.
Marines would get -1 damage, roaches -2, siege tanks -5 (in siege mode) etc.
Or maybe do the reverse, give units on the high ground a +damage upgrade if they are firing against units on the low ground, or even a combination of the two.
Those are my opinions and suggestions, congrats on the initiative.
|
High Ground Ranger is available on Battle.net.
High Ground Defender will be available when Battle.net is done with maintenance.
Both are sister mods of High Ground Advantage and allow you to see how the most requested advantages would pan out.
High Ground, Anakin has been put on hold indefinitely.
|
On May 08 2012 18:06 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 16:34 MavercK wrote:On May 08 2012 13:53 Chargelot wrote:
nkashbvfskahfwfsbhflalawhfbdlvhfadlfvhewf
That is my opinion of the sudden "lets make SC2 into SC:BW2" opinion floating around. There are a lot of things to consider when you want to change something like this, everything from late game upgrades being different to unit movement speed, map sizes, damage, DPS, health, etc. To simply say "lets take one thing that kinda worked in BW, and sorta apply it to SC2 in a different way" is like saying "if these wheels work on a car, they'll work on a commercial airliner as landing gear".
This isn't Brood War, guys. Those days are over, or at the very least, they're bleeding out. When the Blizzard dev team decided to change this between games, it's not like they said "fuck that, too hard to code." They sat down, talked about why it would work and why it wouldn't, crunched numbers, and conceptualized it and its alternatives. Does an entire team of professional developers always get every detail right? No, absolutely not. But needless to say, every other detail somehow links back into this one. Every detail is in some way related to most or all other details.
The problem with the FRB idea in and of itself is that it neglects this idea. Unit cost is based on income, which helps (read: does not determine, only helps to) determine how "useful" a unit is. What kind of abilities it has, how much food it uses, etc***. Yeah, little price changes have occurred over the years, but nothing dramatic. If they halved the cost of the marine, would they not also halve its effectiveness? FRB can only work because it exploits the singular overarching flaw in the 8m2g logic, which is to strap the player onto a rocket and blow him out of the early game.
*** The cost of a unit both determines its abilities and is determined by a unit's ability, depending on which way you look at it. If you want to change the effectiveness of a unit (on a large scale), you must also change its cost. If you wish to change the cost of a unit (on a large scale), you must also change its effectiveness. The 300 mineral marine must kick serious ass, and the 50 mineral Thor must shoot blanks. fairly ridiculous opinion/post. the point of these mods are to try. see what happens. if there's glaring problems they can be addressed and the idea progresses. the main reason Blizzard removed stuff like random miss chance is because it's not obvious. they dumbed the game down so new players know immediately. they dont need to learn about miss chance or anything. it's immediately obvious. it's fine. from their perspective. not from mine unfortunately. i think the cost is too great for this "clarity" Blizzard so desire in their games. The reason doesn't matter. It's completely invalid. It has nothing to do with my point. It's a part of the chain of logic. Break a link, and what happens? The chain falls apart. Whether or not you agree with the way it is, all of the logic of the game ties into itself at every stage. If you change one thing like this, it can create subtle or extremely dramatic changes. But eventually you'll notice a trend of the game breaking down and not quite working the way it should. Units will be blamed as being OP or UP. Spells will be too strong from low ground, nonspell casters will look pathetic by comparison. The entire game is balanced on the fact that units will always hit. Again, it doesn't matter if you like it or not, but it's the reality of the situation. You'd be better off making the whole game from scratch. Also, as always Urashimakt, if you want me to throw this up on EU I will.
Nah, this is completely publicly available. I'll probably put the actually mods as a downloadable link in the OP after it's made sure there's no hiding bugs in them.
I probably should give you the latest Bx Monobattle update though. It's been a bit.
|
On May 08 2012 20:48 urashimakt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 18:06 Chargelot wrote:On May 08 2012 16:34 MavercK wrote:On May 08 2012 13:53 Chargelot wrote:
nkashbvfskahfwfsbhflalawhfbdlvhfadlfvhewf
That is my opinion of the sudden "lets make SC2 into SC:BW2" opinion floating around. There are a lot of things to consider when you want to change something like this, everything from late game upgrades being different to unit movement speed, map sizes, damage, DPS, health, etc. To simply say "lets take one thing that kinda worked in BW, and sorta apply it to SC2 in a different way" is like saying "if these wheels work on a car, they'll work on a commercial airliner as landing gear".
This isn't Brood War, guys. Those days are over, or at the very least, they're bleeding out. When the Blizzard dev team decided to change this between games, it's not like they said "fuck that, too hard to code." They sat down, talked about why it would work and why it wouldn't, crunched numbers, and conceptualized it and its alternatives. Does an entire team of professional developers always get every detail right? No, absolutely not. But needless to say, every other detail somehow links back into this one. Every detail is in some way related to most or all other details.
The problem with the FRB idea in and of itself is that it neglects this idea. Unit cost is based on income, which helps (read: does not determine, only helps to) determine how "useful" a unit is. What kind of abilities it has, how much food it uses, etc***. Yeah, little price changes have occurred over the years, but nothing dramatic. If they halved the cost of the marine, would they not also halve its effectiveness? FRB can only work because it exploits the singular overarching flaw in the 8m2g logic, which is to strap the player onto a rocket and blow him out of the early game.
*** The cost of a unit both determines its abilities and is determined by a unit's ability, depending on which way you look at it. If you want to change the effectiveness of a unit (on a large scale), you must also change its cost. If you wish to change the cost of a unit (on a large scale), you must also change its effectiveness. The 300 mineral marine must kick serious ass, and the 50 mineral Thor must shoot blanks. fairly ridiculous opinion/post. the point of these mods are to try. see what happens. if there's glaring problems they can be addressed and the idea progresses. the main reason Blizzard removed stuff like random miss chance is because it's not obvious. they dumbed the game down so new players know immediately. they dont need to learn about miss chance or anything. it's immediately obvious. it's fine. from their perspective. not from mine unfortunately. i think the cost is too great for this "clarity" Blizzard so desire in their games. The reason doesn't matter. It's completely invalid. It has nothing to do with my point. It's a part of the chain of logic. Break a link, and what happens? The chain falls apart. Whether or not you agree with the way it is, all of the logic of the game ties into itself at every stage. If you change one thing like this, it can create subtle or extremely dramatic changes. But eventually you'll notice a trend of the game breaking down and not quite working the way it should. Units will be blamed as being OP or UP. Spells will be too strong from low ground, nonspell casters will look pathetic by comparison. The entire game is balanced on the fact that units will always hit. Again, it doesn't matter if you like it or not, but it's the reality of the situation. You'd be better off making the whole game from scratch. Also, as always Urashimakt, if you want me to throw this up on EU I will. Nah, this is completely publicly available. I'll probably put the actually mods as a downloadable link in the OP after it's made sure there's no hiding bugs in them. I probably should give you the latest Bx Monobattle update though. It's been a bit.
Yeah man, send it my way and I'll get it updated. Don't take my criticism too harshly here. I'm all for testing anything. But it's important to understand what I was saying. This changes everything at one level or another. If the idea were to be adopted by Blizzard, they would need to change so much more than just this. Everything mechanical would be tweaked by some percentage, whether that amounts to a small change or a large change, it's still a bigger change than high ground advantage.
|
On May 09 2012 00:04 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 20:48 urashimakt wrote:On May 08 2012 18:06 Chargelot wrote:On May 08 2012 16:34 MavercK wrote:On May 08 2012 13:53 Chargelot wrote:
nkashbvfskahfwfsbhflalawhfbdlvhfadlfvhewf
That is my opinion of the sudden "lets make SC2 into SC:BW2" opinion floating around. There are a lot of things to consider when you want to change something like this, everything from late game upgrades being different to unit movement speed, map sizes, damage, DPS, health, etc. To simply say "lets take one thing that kinda worked in BW, and sorta apply it to SC2 in a different way" is like saying "if these wheels work on a car, they'll work on a commercial airliner as landing gear".
This isn't Brood War, guys. Those days are over, or at the very least, they're bleeding out. When the Blizzard dev team decided to change this between games, it's not like they said "fuck that, too hard to code." They sat down, talked about why it would work and why it wouldn't, crunched numbers, and conceptualized it and its alternatives. Does an entire team of professional developers always get every detail right? No, absolutely not. But needless to say, every other detail somehow links back into this one. Every detail is in some way related to most or all other details.
The problem with the FRB idea in and of itself is that it neglects this idea. Unit cost is based on income, which helps (read: does not determine, only helps to) determine how "useful" a unit is. What kind of abilities it has, how much food it uses, etc***. Yeah, little price changes have occurred over the years, but nothing dramatic. If they halved the cost of the marine, would they not also halve its effectiveness? FRB can only work because it exploits the singular overarching flaw in the 8m2g logic, which is to strap the player onto a rocket and blow him out of the early game.
*** The cost of a unit both determines its abilities and is determined by a unit's ability, depending on which way you look at it. If you want to change the effectiveness of a unit (on a large scale), you must also change its cost. If you wish to change the cost of a unit (on a large scale), you must also change its effectiveness. The 300 mineral marine must kick serious ass, and the 50 mineral Thor must shoot blanks. fairly ridiculous opinion/post. the point of these mods are to try. see what happens. if there's glaring problems they can be addressed and the idea progresses. the main reason Blizzard removed stuff like random miss chance is because it's not obvious. they dumbed the game down so new players know immediately. they dont need to learn about miss chance or anything. it's immediately obvious. it's fine. from their perspective. not from mine unfortunately. i think the cost is too great for this "clarity" Blizzard so desire in their games. The reason doesn't matter. It's completely invalid. It has nothing to do with my point. It's a part of the chain of logic. Break a link, and what happens? The chain falls apart. Whether or not you agree with the way it is, all of the logic of the game ties into itself at every stage. If you change one thing like this, it can create subtle or extremely dramatic changes. But eventually you'll notice a trend of the game breaking down and not quite working the way it should. Units will be blamed as being OP or UP. Spells will be too strong from low ground, nonspell casters will look pathetic by comparison. The entire game is balanced on the fact that units will always hit. Again, it doesn't matter if you like it or not, but it's the reality of the situation. You'd be better off making the whole game from scratch. Also, as always Urashimakt, if you want me to throw this up on EU I will. Nah, this is completely publicly available. I'll probably put the actually mods as a downloadable link in the OP after it's made sure there's no hiding bugs in them. I probably should give you the latest Bx Monobattle update though. It's been a bit. Yeah man, send it my way and I'll get it updated. Don't take my criticism too harshly here. I'm all for testing anything. But it's important to understand what I was saying. This changes everything at one level or another. If the idea were to be adopted by Blizzard, they would need to change so much more than just this. Everything mechanical would be tweaked by some percentage, whether that amounts to a small change or a large change, it's still a bigger change than high ground advantage.
The mods aren't a suggestion, they're just tools. But you know I would never listen to you.
|
I dont understand why people are looking at this mod and complaining about how this would totally change the game and it has absolutely no place in SC2.
Nowhere does the OP even suggest that he thinks this would be a valid change for competitive multiplayer. He's just making this available as another tool for mapmakers to use, say, for custom games?
|
|
|
On May 08 2012 20:46 urashimakt wrote:High Ground Ranger is available on Battle.net. High Ground Defender will be available when Battle.net is done with maintenance. Both are sister mods of High Ground Advantage and allow you to see how the most requested advantages would pan out. High Ground, Anakin has been put on hold indefinitely.
lol, nice. you're a beast urash
|
Just a word of warning, I realize that High Ground Ranger doesn't animate reduced range attacks for units that have multiple attack animations (Thor, Reaper, Queen) and that the Queen's reduced range attacks don't match with the new "hotfix". I'll fix both as soon as Blizzard updates the client to have the updated actor and weapon.
|
Is there some way to test/publish this in Europe? I really would like to make some tests with it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
