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[M] (4) Aiur Refuge

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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1 2 Next All
MarcusRife
Profile Joined March 2011
343 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-19 02:12:50
April 29 2012 00:26 GMT
#1
[image loading]
Published on NA
Playable size: 168 x 168

The energy of the temple keeps the Zerg at bay. For now...


I got some great feedback from the May MOTM and I have tried to make changes based on the following.

On June 01 2012 14:34 Nightmarjoo wrote:
I like Auir Refuge a lot, it just isn't as clean as the previous two. The four bases per player are a little closer to each other than I'd prefer as well. The layout seems good though, and while the map is large it didn't feel too big to me. As with the others above I didn't get to test it extensively though. I'm potentially worried about the fact that you can blink into the nat from the 4th area, though it may not actually matter. The vulnerability of the nat from behind definitely makes or breaks the map. I don't know which way that balance tips though.


On June 03 2012 06:43 monitor wrote:
Auir Refuge

Very cool ideas and well done with rotational symmetry.

I just can't see this natural design working. The rush distance is really short once you break the rocks, so I don't think many games are going to get past the mid game. The natural is creative but... tanks, colossi, blink stalkers, mutalisks, etc. are just going to be too powerful imo. I can't see a solid balance coming from it, and I don't know if the gameplay will make up for it.

Show nested quote +
My first instinct is "woah this is a nice well-made map"; my second is "oh god blink harass at the nat" -
nightmarjoo



Therefore, I reworked the space around the natural base. I pushed minerals further back and created more open space around it to prevent the type of harass described in the feedback. I also tweaked the 3rd and 4th bases slightly.


Old Version
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Analyzer
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Screenshots
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Feedback welcome


Update Changelog
Removed high ground pods near the middle to open it up more
Slight tweaking on natural (Natural base is not siegable from the low ground)
Lowered high ground above 4th one level
Adjusted middle to accommodate 4th base high ground change
Removed some rocks in the middle
Lessened space behind minerals in natural to reduce ease of hiding proxies


My map portfolio: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352620
Heh_
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Singapore2712 Posts
April 29 2012 01:14 GMT
#2
Did you make a 4 player steppes of war? Bases are wayyyy too close.

The middle is forcefield heaven. Chokes everywhere.
=Þ
FlaShFTW
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States10193 Posts
April 29 2012 01:30 GMT
#3
suggest you take out the middle area stuff like the tiny bits of highground and the center and make them all just flat highground. third is impossible to take. pretty much a 4p steppes. rush distance too close.
Writer#1 KT and FlaSh Fanboy || Woo Jung Ho Never Forget || Teamliquid Political Decision Desk
TL+ Member
MarcusRife
Profile Joined March 2011
343 Posts
April 29 2012 03:09 GMT
#4
I'm a little confused by the first two comments how is it like Steppes of War?

Nat to Nat Steppes of war
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[image loading]


Nat to Nat distance on Aiur Refuge is 128. That's 50% longer. What about the map makes a third base impossible? Some specificity would be appreciated.
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-29 03:38:35
April 29 2012 03:34 GMT
#5
On April 29 2012 12:09 MarcusRife wrote:
I'm a little confused by the first two comments how is it like Steppes of War?

Nat to Nat Steppes of war
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]

I think, worryingly, that some people just say it looks like steppes, without realizing how short it actually is on that map. From my understanding, anything above 120 was in that acceptable range, preferably 130 I think should be the minimum though. It just looks really short on this map because the map is really big. That said, since it's so big there is definitely room to adjust it and make it a bit bigger.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
Mazaire
Profile Joined July 2011
Australia217 Posts
April 29 2012 10:10 GMT
#6
as a Zerg player this map terrifies me. it the ramps to the middle were bigger and a less chokeyness in the middle. this map could be really good.
"No matter what event you go to there are so many koreans, like a swarm. Even if you beat three or four, there are like 10 others waiting." - Socke
IveReturned
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Turkey258 Posts
April 29 2012 10:28 GMT
#7
The maps become even better every month.. Every map become more bautiful
fenX
Profile Joined February 2011
France127 Posts
April 29 2012 13:19 GMT
#8
You must leave some space between the mineralls and the cliff in the 3rd, mules will get stuck behind, and marine drop here = win in TvZ.
My map thread : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=195518
Callynn
Profile Joined December 2010
Netherlands917 Posts
April 29 2012 14:56 GMT
#9
Siege tanks will dominate this map, too many chokes =(
It does look good though, you should play 10 test matches against a decent terran to see what I mean.
Comparing BW with SCII is like comparing a beautiful three-master sailing ship with a modern battlecruiser. Both are beautiful in their own way, both perform the same task, but they are worlds apart in how they are built and how they are steered.
MarcusRife
Profile Joined March 2011
343 Posts
April 29 2012 16:28 GMT
#10
On April 29 2012 22:19 fenX wrote:
You must leave some space between the mineralls and the cliff in the 3rd, mules will get stuck behind, and marine drop here = win in TvZ.


I have taken measures already to keep that from happening. I have already tested it. In my tests mules have never gone on the wrong side and gotten stuck and dropping marines in inaccessible places has not been possible.

For reference look at the third on Cloud Kingdom. There is no space there either.
MarcusRife
Profile Joined March 2011
343 Posts
April 29 2012 17:05 GMT
#11
On April 29 2012 23:56 Callynn wrote:
Siege tanks will dominate this map, too many chokes =(
It does look good though, you should play 10 test matches against a decent terran to see what I mean.


I admit that the center is not super wide open like other maps say like Tal'Darim. The intention was so that 1a is punished and good positioning and setting up attacks is rewarded more. Some tweaking may be necessary but some thought did go into making this interesting and playable.

Some scenarios
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[image loading]

Setting up space controlling units like siege tanks in the white areas is very powerful on this map. I meant it to be this way. But if you do this you get yourself out of position to defend these side paths and make it hard on yourself to hold 3rd and 4th bases. You give something up when you over commit to this center area.


+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]

Also, if you try to position in the center a well prepared Zerg can have these rocks opened up and attack from three sides from high ground positions. The ramps in the center are 4-wide ramps.


These are some examples of how the design of the center is meant to encourage tactics such as these which I think are good for the game
Zeon0
Profile Joined September 2010
Austria2995 Posts
April 29 2012 17:28 GMT
#12
i like the third. on most positions its safe cause its away from your opponent, however its pretty open so not too safe.

i think u must change the middle, it seems too choky, make it a bit more open? and i dont like how easy it is to siege the natural mineral line, the natural kinda reminds me of tal darim altar (and i think mot people will agree it sucks in ZvT to lose the natural to tanks ...)
Hater of MKP since GSL Open Season 2 | Fanboy of: NesTea Stephano IdrA DIMAGA MorroW ret DongRaeGu Snute SaSe Mvp ThorZaIN DeMusliM
RumbleBadger
Profile Joined July 2011
322 Posts
April 29 2012 19:18 GMT
#13
Can the main base be hit with siege tanks from the low ground? Because that's something you will want to change if so...
Also, you seem to have quite a bit of dead space in the map (around the edges, around the thirds). I bet if you worked to cut some of that down you could easily make the map a little tighter (more like 160x160 or 152x152). Make sure to not cut down the rush distances much though, because 128 is a pretty perfect rush distance, but tightening the map will make it easier to read and more appealing to play on.
Games before dames.
Acritter
Profile Joined August 2010
Syria7637 Posts
April 29 2012 19:36 GMT
#14
Sieging from the low ground may be a problem, along with Blink play. Also, HUGE positional imbalance. If Zerg spawns counterclockwise from Terran, they should probably just GG.
dont let your memes be dreams - konydora, motivational speaker | not actually living in syria
MarcusRife
Profile Joined March 2011
343 Posts
April 30 2012 19:55 GMT
#15
Updates

Removed high ground pods near the middle to open it up more
Slight tweaking on natural (Natural base is not siegable from the low ground)

On April 30 2012 04:36 Acritter wrote:
Sieging from the low ground may be a problem, along with Blink play. Also, HUGE positional imbalance. If Zerg spawns counterclockwise from Terran, they should probably just GG.


Having different spawning position pairs play differently is not inherently a problem. For example someone goes first in chess. It is only if the player doesn't have options to overcome it. I think with the base not being siegeable a Zerg can withstand an attack. That does need testing though.

My design philosophy is to provide options for attacking earlier on the game than most of the other maps that are being produced. I am bored by the lack of action in the early game. I am aware that these can be made too strong but I am making every effort to try to make sure that is not the case.
MarcusRife
Profile Joined March 2011
343 Posts
May 10 2012 21:16 GMT
#16
Updates

Lowered high ground above 4th one level
Adjusted middle to accommodate 4th base high ground change

I could really use some strong constructive feedback as I plan to submit this to MOTM.
KoBlades
Profile Joined April 2011
Austria248 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-10 21:34:53
May 10 2012 21:26 GMT
#17
the third seems very easy to take which i personally like, but you could try with a backdoor into the main from the third. I hope you know what I mean, i think this would make the map a bit more interesting in the early game.

On second thought, a backdoor into the main would be maybe even better if placed at the top of the main base, above the natural. (I look at the top base right now. )

EDIT: the main path look very small to me, that might just be my feeling, but i don't see a place I would really like to engage with ling/bling, can't really get a surround how I see it. You could try merging the two main ramps leading into the middle plateau into one big ramp; also try pulling the four double-blocks in the very middle a bit more to the outside. My idea : get rid of the destructible rocks and put the double-blocks in their place. I know this would make the map a bit more straight-forward, but also open the middle quite a bit.

good luck with your map!
"What do you know about fear?" -"Everything."
PandaZerg
Profile Joined April 2012
Canada148 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-10 21:32:34
May 10 2012 21:31 GMT
#18
looks very nice and well thought.
I prefer the newer version. Nice map!
MarcusRife
Profile Joined March 2011
343 Posts
May 19 2012 20:16 GMT
#19
The show Top 200 KOTH used this map. They used the FRB version however. I believe by accident.
Here is the link it is right at the start.

http://www.twitch.tv/ascendtv/b/317904251
IronManSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States2119 Posts
May 19 2012 21:59 GMT
#20
This is such a innovative, technical, yet confusing map... I think you have a wonderful concept in mind, you just need to re-think a couple things. I don't think having two destructible rocks right next to each other is the best solution. Just use one diagonal and block off a single choke, for instance.

Also, the naturals have a tal'darim touch to it, although I can tell by the overview that you did your best to make them non-abusable by siege units, but the potential for proxy is increased by at least 80%. I would consider re-designing the naturals a little, or re-positioning the minerals to help spot proxies better.
SC2 Mapmaker || twitter: @ironmansc || Ohana & Mech Depot || 3x TLMC finalist || www.twitch.tv/sc2mapstream
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