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[SC]Django
Poland44 Posts
1. Why dosen't add hellbat to factory with upgrade blue flame, removed firebat because is similar to marauder. 2. Why Marauder dosen't have Concussive Shells upgrade ? (maybe helpful bio vs. protoss) 3. Why removed sensor tower ? 3. New Unit in Robotics Facility ? | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
I´ve gotten a few PMs about Reapers being too/hard to catch strong vs Zerg early. (I think its important since it affects early game balance, thats why I bring it up again) Can someone isolate the problem? Possible variables to adjust: - Changed from Light to Medium (Makes Hydras better) - Damage/attack speed - Slightly slower speed - Longer time to regenerate life I would prefer a small tweak now that does not require larger changes to other things (Like Queen etc) Gonna upload a bug-patch today | ||
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Denmark9376 Posts
On January 12 2014 19:54 Kabel wrote: Reaper vs Zerg I´ve gotten a few PMs about Reapers being too strong vs Zerg early. Can someone isolate the problem? Possible variables to adjust: - Changed from Light to Medium (Makes Hydras better) - Damage/attack speed - Slightly slower speed - Longer time to regenerate life The issue that if zerg is too slow about getting Speedlings, then Reapers will evenutally tear the Zerg down. In terms of pure, balance, its not unfair as you just need a somewhat fast geyser, and then you use Enrage untill Speedlings are out. When Speedlings are out, zerg has a huge map presense advantage and it becomes hard for terran to secure Natural. At least he will need a very fast wall-off at his natural to secure the base (that is very expensive). One issue here is that Reapers have much more DPS vs light than in HOTS, which means that slowlings can't be used to "win time", since they die so incredibly fast. Another issue is that it may reduce build order variety since it "forces" early geyser. Hydralisks doesn't really matter here - Its coming too late and Speedlings absolutely rape Reapers. Despite the fact that it isn't a balance issue, it should IMO still be changed due to the frustration it will result in untill players learn the matchup. The suggestions me and Dec made are too a large extent designed to fix that issue in a way that still maintains the utility of the Reaper in the matchup, but in a less "annoying way". But let's take a look at implications for the suggested stats for Reaper and Queen. Reaper will work like this; - Medium armor --> better vs Vultures, worse vs Dragoons - 5 damage vs everything --> Better vs Queens/Dragoons. Worse vs Lings, this means that Ling + Queen synergy is increased, so zerg players can use Lings to tank for the Queens. Then a good zerg player will individually micro back injured zerglings vs Reapers, something that is almost impossilbe now due to the high DPS of the Reaper. - BT 50 seconds, no tech lab requirement --> Decent opening early game vs protoss --> adds a bit more variety. This change isn't neccasary though if it turns out that it breaks TvT or TvZ balance - Queen 80-90 HP --> 2 Reapers beats it, but the Queen alone can hold off the first Reaper. - Unlimited Queen production, zerg can open gasless and react to a Reaper opening by building a quick 3rd Queen --> Increases build order variety. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
HoTS: 7 dmg per second vs all armor classes Sbow: 10 dmg per second vs light, 5dmg dps vs medium, 2,5 dps vs armored (since it deals concussive damage) Here are weapon stats HoTS: 2x4 dmg, cooldown 1,1 second Sbow: 2x6 dmg, cooldown 1,17 second (100% dmg vs light, 50% vs medium, 25% vs armored) One way to even it out more is by this: 2x6 dmg, cooldown 1,5 second. This gives us a DPS of 8 vs light. (7 in HoTS) Slightly more than in HoTS, but here Reaper requires Tech lab. (And has a mid-game upgrade for more utility) Also Zerg has worse defence vs them here. The longer cooldown encourages more burst fire, so each shot is more important. 3 Reapers can one-shot one Zergling, if they target fire. 4 to one-shot a Drone. This would give slow-Zerglings more way of buying time vs Reapers? Thoughts on this? @Regarding your suggestion above It might work, but I think it is too risky to implement now. Affects too much and it has not been tested at all | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
I have played some matches against protoss now, and i agree here with kabel. It seems rather easy to storm -Smart cast -Units clump more -Massing many templars against zerg, is a good thing. So on top of my head, three things. (I dont think defiler suffers from the exact same dilemma here, since you want to spread defilers out and so on) So two "suggestion". Feel free to say they are shit. But only with good words tho. It accelerates, the dmg. In broodwar, lets say each tick is 30damage(its not far off) 15 25 35 45 This is actually four seconds like in broodwar.(The dmg is not 100% match) Another solutions is 80damage over 4seconds(like in sc2). Or 112 damage over 6seconds(which it is right now)? If it is, it seems kinda "to-good" anyway? Iam sure there is worth to invest some more time into the storm to come up with a good thing. @Reaver I feel the reaver, is just insane in starbow compared to broodwar. Am i wrong here? So long time ago i played broodwar myself. Watching bisu play live, reaver seems worse. -Units clump more -Reaver a.i better(scarab much smarter). So suggestion is to nerf reaver somehow. Mainly against zerg and not against mech/armored units. Would be cool to see the reaver not one-shot zerglings/marines actually. And not hydras either. So a nerf to his radius would be cool 1) Remove his awful-upgrade asap imo(in broodwar it doesnt even increase its radius splash) 2) Now iam not 100% if the players i played against used this upgrade or not. Well these are on top of my heads atleast. @Ultralisk i think he suffers from the "miss syndrome". Not 100% sure tho The longer cooldown encourages more burst fire, so each shot is more important Sounds cool on top of my head-i say that alot. | ||
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ExO_
United States2316 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
I have some questions: 1. Why dosen't add hellbat to factory with upgrade blue flame, removed firebat because is similar to marauder. 2. Why Marauder dosen't have Concussive Shells upgrade ? (maybe helpful bio vs. protoss) 3. Why removed sensor tower ? 3. New Unit in Robotics Facility ? 1. I played around with that concept when HoTS was quite new. At this point, I will not experiment with it. 2. I am looking at adding a way for Ghost to "catch" units instead 3. Long story 4. If needed in the future for balance or to improve stale meta-game, I will add a unit at that point instead. I did not manage to find/create a unit that felt good or interesting enough @Storm and Reaver Need to keep an eye on them to see how they fit into the gameplay atm, especially when people get more used to them. (I know, boring answear :D) But that is kinda how I feel about it atm. Need to play more with them and then determine in what ways they might be adjusted to improve the gameplay. @leZaeL Thanks, I will upload it! | ||
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IeZaeL
Italy991 Posts
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Denmark9376 Posts
I feel the reaver, is just insane in starbow compared to broodwar. Am i wrong here? So long time ago i played broodwar myself. Watching bisu play live, reaver seems worse. -Units clump more -Reaver a.i better(scarab much smarter). I watched a zerg yesterday (Meadow) have great engagement against a protoss that had like 6 Reavers or so. Meadow went for an (in theory) ineffective unit compostiion, Speedling/Hydra/Lurker but actually just had great surrounds and thus could take down the protoss army in even trades. Not sure there is a problem here. Further, zerg also has Roach which is a bit better at tanking Reaver shots. When that is said, Reaver some times is absolutely insane depending on which units the scarabs targets. I had a test with like 15 stimmed marines vs 3 Reavers. Some times the Marines would win, othertimes the Reaver would just perfectly align their scarab shots and kill all the marines with their first volley (combined). | ||
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Denmark9376 Posts
2x6 dmg, cooldown 1,5 second. This gives us a DPS of 8 vs light. (7 in HoTS) This will definitely break TvZ even more. While it will kill zerglings slightly slower, but then you can kill Queen faster (which is a relatively easy target if it can't shoot back). IMO we just need to go back to automatic attack w/ Queen. I am pretty sure you can gather the same type of feedback from asking some zerg players playing the mod on Bnet. 2*6 with Queen having 80-90 HP and unlimited Queen production.... Hmm still pretty close, I feel 2*5 is more safe, but could work. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
This will definitely break TvZ even more. While it will zerglings slightly slower, but then you can kill Queen faster (which is a relatively easy target if it can't shoot back). What? Reapers deal concussive damage. Which means 8 dps vs light, 4 dps vs medium, 2 dps vs armored (queen) The DPS will be worse than it is now in Sbow. It will be closer to HoTS relationship Reaper - Zerglings I am pretty sure you can gather the same type of feedback from asking some zerg players playing the mod on Bnet. Yes, I think so too. I can understand the frustration in it for newcomers. But that is connected to the "learning phase". (Aka once told, a player knows it. Before that, its frustrating.) Is it annoying during the game if a player knows it? Will it be annoying even after 5 games? 10 games? The mod has been uploaded in "public" for 48 hours I would just prefer to wait a few days. And I think an alternative solution must be tested in some form first. (At least if it is as big as you describe it) | ||
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Denmark9376 Posts
On January 12 2014 20:37 Kabel wrote: What? Reapers deal concussive damage. Which means 8 dps vs light, 4 dps vs medium, 2 dps vs armored (queen) Oh I thought you suggested flat damage. Hmm I don't really like these types of solution where it can only kill light-units and useless vs anything else - It was kinda that way in WOL and not that used. I just prefer flat-damage solution, but that's obviously problematic with the current Queen. But I think the main issue here is that by just nerfing its stats you are making this a balance-issue. I don't believe its a balance-issue since it easily can be dealt with by fast speed (this puts teran behind). Nerfing it, is just really likely to make it completely useless when players figure out the matchup. But I suggest, you try and msg zerg players on Bnet and ask them their opinion of the Queen (because the Queen and Reaper go hand in hand). I mean, I guess its possible that the feedback me and Dec gathered yesterday were just from a minority. | ||
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Denmark9376 Posts
Just copying a comment her where I asked if Dweb was good for the game. Squat replied: I think so. It's a good way for protoss to deal with zerg mass static defense, without the abusive nature of force field. It also empowers reaver and DT drops, which are high risk/high reward maneuvers that take a lot of micro and APM, particularly in the case of reavers I guess with potential changes to NJ (damage reduction), then Dweb may still feel a bit differet. At least, given that we can't come up with any other good solutions for it, maybe its time for us to try out Solids old suggestion. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
I watched a zerg yesterday (Meadow) have great engagement against a protoss that had like 6 Reavers or so Did he have the reaver upgrade? | ||
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Hider
Denmark9376 Posts
Didn't check. But I guess that upgrade can be scrapped anyway - feels pointless. I guess you only upgrade it when you plan to turtle w/ Reavers, which doesn't exactly promote great type of games anyway. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Hydras and Vultures with 1 armor survives a Reaver shot. Unless Reaver has the damage upgrade. Makes it relevant? | ||
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Denmark9376 Posts
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Denmark9376 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Detection-ability is fixed? I didn't get any reponse about that. Ah sorry, well fixed and fixed. I kinda like the version we have now. :< I just wanna see it in a couple of real games, and if it sucks I can try to rework it into an other version (have never seen it used in a real game) Btw, uploading this one to Korea... Might be cool? Yeah, it is.. but I don´t know if I dare bring the beta there. Like, that is kinda the final frontier. NA and EU are level 1, Korea is the boss. They will eat this mod alive? need to make sure balance is a little bit better first? | ||
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Hider
Denmark9376 Posts
Yeah, it is.. but I don´t know if I dare bring the beta there. Like, that is kinda the final frontier. NA and EU are level 1, Korea is the boss. They will eat this mod alive? need to make sure balance is a little bit better first? Well I think it could have an acceleration-effect if some koreans suddenly began streaming on Korean Server --> Creates even more hype. Most koreans starts out by playing BW style anyway, and that part of the game is pretty balanced. I don't think it has do be done now, but maybe along with next patct? (or the one after?) | ||
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