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On January 12 2014 20:22 Foxxan wrote:
I feel the reaver, is just insane in starbow compared to broodwar. Am i wrong here? So long time ago i played broodwar myself.
Watching bisu play live, reaver seems worse.
-Units clump more
-Reaver a.i better(scarab much smarter).
So suggestion is to nerf reaver somehow.
Now, I haven't actually played Starbow with people, or any RTS to a competent degree, but isn't this a bit of a weird argument? You're basically assuming that SB=BW, and the only way units from BW can be balanced in SB is that they're identical.
Like, I don't actually know how Reavers are in competitive Starbow, but it certainly doesn't have anything to do with Bisu playing Brood War.
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On January 12 2014 20:23 ExO_ wrote:
Hello all, I just discovered starbow today and would like to give it a try, but am having trouble finding matches. Is the channel starbow still active, or where should I be going to play?
Try EU chat channel Starbow.
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Like, I don't actually know how Reavers are in competitive Starbow, but it certainly doesn't have anything to do with Bisu playing Brood War
Thats true thx for pointing out the obvious.
I related to bisu, since you can see reavers when he play in action.
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@ Reapers
Have you considered making cliff-jumping an upgrade? That would allow you to determine the point where reapers can enter a base basically by the second, meaning you don't have to tamper with other units like the queen as much. And if you make it rather cheap (thinking 50/50), it will only affect the unit in the earliest game.
It seems to me that the balance problems Blizzard always had with the reaper stemmed from the fact that it could circumvent the natural base defence so early that it needed a rather weak attack and a long production time, making them basically useless in the mid and late game. The early cliff-jumping forced the unit so much into a pure harassment role that it was basically impossible to find a balance between overpowered (as in early WoL) and useless (later in WoL).
Of course, I'm new here and don't how much of that applies to Starbow, but I think the reaper here isn't all that different from the one in SC2, actually.
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Have you considered making cliff-jumping an upgrade? That would allow you to determine the point where reapers can enter a base basically by the second, meaning you don't have to tamper with other units like the queen as much. And if you make it rather cheap (thinking 50/50), it will only affect the unit in the earliest game.
Cliff-jumping only becomes an issue vs zerg if zerg just doens't multitask well enough. But, its not really the main problem for zergs vs Reapers. Rather, the issue is that that they quickly drain down all their energy if they don't get Speedlings out in a reasonable time.
I think that if we were to nerf Reapers, then I would go with a movement speed nerf (maybe 0.15 slower), and compensate upgraded Reapers by an additional 0.15 (so upgraded Reapers are as fast as they were previously).
I think the above change will make it possible for slow-lings to get more hits on the Reaper.
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On January 12 2014 21:46 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +Like, I don't actually know how Reavers are in competitive Starbow, but it certainly doesn't have anything to do with Bisu playing Brood War Thats true thx for pointing out the obvious. I related to bisu, since you can see reavers when he play in action.
...In Brood War.
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On January 12 2014 21:57 Ljas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 21:46 Foxxan wrote:Like, I don't actually know how Reavers are in competitive Starbow, but it certainly doesn't have anything to do with Bisu playing Brood War Thats true thx for pointing out the obvious. I related to bisu, since you can see reavers when he play in action. ...In Brood War.
I guess you aren't aware of this, but Starbow has been build upon the fundamental core of BW, and thus any change in unit attributes/strenght must be intentional and needs to be compensated in a different a way.
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On January 12 2014 21:57 Ljas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 21:46 Foxxan wrote:Like, I don't actually know how Reavers are in competitive Starbow, but it certainly doesn't have anything to do with Bisu playing Brood War Thats true thx for pointing out the obvious. I related to bisu, since you can see reavers when he play in action. ...In Brood War.
No. In tetris...
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I am aware, but shouldn't unit balance be considered in the context of how it performs in the mod, since while very much built upon BW, it's quite a different beast already?
Edit: Well, you're the experts here. It just feels a bit strange.
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On January 12 2014 22:02 Ljas wrote:
I am aware, but shouldn't unit balance be considered in the context of how it performs in the mod, since while very much built upon BW, it's quite a different beast already?
Edit: Well, you're the experts here. It just feels a bit strange.
That's exactly what he is doing though. He is comparing how the Reaver fares in Starbow relative to BW. The context here is that it (if balanced) shouldn't do better, but it may actually fare better than in BW due to unit clumping
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On January 12 2014 22:11 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 22:02 Ljas wrote:
I am aware, but shouldn't unit balance be considered in the context of how it performs in the mod, since while very much built upon BW, it's quite a different beast already?
Edit: Well, you're the experts here. It just feels a bit strange. That's exactly what he is doing though. He is comparing how the Reaver fares in Starbow relative to BW. The context here is that it (if balanced) shouldn't do better, but it may actually fare better than in BW due to unit clumping
Yes, but what you're also saying there is that it can't be balanced if it fares better than in BW. But since there are a whole lot of differences between the two, would it not be possible that some other factor evens it out?
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On January 12 2014 21:54 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +Have you considered making cliff-jumping an upgrade? That would allow you to determine the point where reapers can enter a base basically by the second, meaning you don't have to tamper with other units like the queen as much. And if you make it rather cheap (thinking 50/50), it will only affect the unit in the earliest game. Cliff-jumping only becomes an issue vs zerg if zerg just doens't multitask well enough. But, its not really the main problem for zergs vs Reapers. Rather, the issue is that that they quickly drain down all their energy if they don't get Speedlings out in a reasonable time. I think that if we were to nerf Reapers, then I would go with a movement speed nerf (maybe 0.15 slower), and compensate upgraded Reapers by an additional 0.15 (so upgraded Reapers are as fast as they were previously). I think the above change will make it possible for slow-lings to get more hits on the Reaper.
Okay, I just saw that the upgrade also gives them better stats. I didn't realise before. So nevermind.
Edit: Still eager to see how reapers will turn out in the mid and late game with their gas cost once the gameplay develops.
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On January 12 2014 22:15 Ljas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 22:11 Hider wrote:On January 12 2014 22:02 Ljas wrote:
I am aware, but shouldn't unit balance be considered in the context of how it performs in the mod, since while very much built upon BW, it's quite a different beast already?
Edit: Well, you're the experts here. It just feels a bit strange. That's exactly what he is doing though. He is comparing how the Reaver fares in Starbow relative to BW. The context here is that it (if balanced) shouldn't do better, but it may actually fare better than in BW due to unit clumping Yes, but what you're also saying there is that it can't be balanced if it fares better than in BW. But since there are a whole lot of differences between the two, would it not be possible that some other factor evens it out?
Every other change has been taking into account (and are intentional). We can't randomly hope that things even out, Blizzard can kinda do that as they have a huge player base and thus could adaopt a test-and-change strat. Starbow has more limited ressources and needs to make the majority of the balance changes so they work in theory.
Balance aside - An overpowered Reaver isn't very good for the game either as it makes the game too turtly.
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Fair enough. Thanks for the elaboration.
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On January 12 2014 20:23 ExO_ wrote:
Hello all, I just discovered starbow today and would like to give it a try, but am having trouble finding matches. Is the channel starbow still active, or where should I be going to play?
Make sure you're joining the CHAT CHANNEL, not the group. There were almost 30 people hangin' out and playing games last night.
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On January 12 2014 23:59 awwnuts07 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 20:23 ExO_ wrote:
Hello all, I just discovered starbow today and would like to give it a try, but am having trouble finding matches. Is the channel starbow still active, or where should I be going to play? Make sure you're joining the CHAT CHANNEL, not the group. There were almost 30 people hangin' out and playing games last night.
ahhh that's part of the problem. I'll be trying again tonight after work on NA/EU. from what I can tell I can kinda play BW T again!
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On January 12 2014 23:59 awwnuts07 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 20:23 ExO_ wrote:
Hello all, I just discovered starbow today and would like to give it a try, but am having trouble finding matches. Is the channel starbow still active, or where should I be going to play? Make sure you're joining the CHAT CHANNEL, not the group. There were almost 30 people hangin' out and playing games last night.
At 2 am central NA. That was pretty amazing to see ^^.
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On January 13 2014 00:27 decemberscalm wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 23:59 awwnuts07 wrote:On January 12 2014 20:23 ExO_ wrote:
Hello all, I just discovered starbow today and would like to give it a try, but am having trouble finding matches. Is the channel starbow still active, or where should I be going to play? Make sure you're joining the CHAT CHANNEL, not the group. There were almost 30 people hangin' out and playing games last night. At 2 am central NA. That was pretty amazing to see ^^.
Yeah, I was playing 2s with my cousin last night and popped in just to see how many people were playing. Was friggin' amazed at the number. I wouldn't be surprised if there's another swell uploads the vods of the Axiom/Acer guys playing.
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@Roach
Okay. I think i found a major bug.
After they unuburrow they are invulnerable from dmg for 3~ seconds.
I just watched a game i played. I think i can confirm it
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Strange. I look into it now. You have replay to share?
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EPT
