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[A] Starbow - Page 122

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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Danko__
Profile Joined January 2012
Poland429 Posts
October 21 2012 13:09 GMT
#2421
Anya its not about balance.
Anya
Profile Joined October 2012
Russian Federation17 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-21 13:22:43
October 21 2012 13:17 GMT
#2422
On October 21 2012 22:09 Danko__ wrote:
Anya its not about balance.


Erm, but it sounds like about balance

You can call me noob, really, but when i play game i have no time for thinkning about zerg macro and stuff. There so much to do, I even forget to inject hatcheries...

I like Queen Injections like they are working now. I am not Dimaga, I forget inject all time. And if i have time to attend my macro - good - I'll get extra 2 larvae per hatchery
Danko__
Profile Joined January 2012
Poland429 Posts
October 21 2012 13:26 GMT
#2423
Its about design. Larvae inject is ability which just gives you larvae. You cant choose what to do with that spell. You just use it, periodically, without much thought. Compare it to chronoboost. You can get your army units faster, you can get some more economy or esential upgrades in time. In starbow you can additionally strengthen your defenses for short period of time. Good mechanic should give you choice.
makmeatt
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
2024 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-21 13:44:51
October 21 2012 13:43 GMT
#2424
On October 21 2012 21:57 Anya wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 21 2012 21:45 JohnMadden wrote:

He didn't mean removing rallypoints from stuff, but removing the ability to put eggs into control groups. Notice the difference, a static rally point will send all new units to a single spot and you will have to pick them up and issue commands separately/again, but with eggs, your new units will automatically become a part of your main army, thus removing the requirement to check your reinforcements.


Okay, but other races will have advantage anyway. Imagine lategame: terran has 4 bases and zerg, for example, - 5.
Terran can make all production buildings on main base and make one rallypoint where his army will store up. And if he need his army he in one moment move camera to his rallypoint and in 1 click adds them to bind. But zerg cant have 1 rallypoint because he cant place all his hatcheries on main base. His hatcheries placed everywhere


Just to clarify, all the hatcheries can be grouped together into one control group and have a common rally point for units. I think Zerg players in BroodWar also rallied all the hatches into one spot close to all hatches.
On October 21 2012 22:00 Anya wrote:
Actually, i think zerg was nerfed enough to balance. Injections was nerfed, larvae spawn too - we really should make zerg life more harder?

See, the problem is not that we want to make the Zerg harder in order to balance stuff, it's that right now, Zerg's apparently pretty dull in terms of base management and it's very easy for it to gain advantages on multiple fronts, whereas other races have been struggling against semi- and more competent Zergs, at least here in EU.
On October 21 2012 22:00 Kabel wrote:
Thoughts?

Glad you asked.
On October 21 2012 22:00 Kabel wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +


- A Queen ability that makes a building morph and be built faster for X seconds.


Why? No other race speeds up buildings. It feels very Zerg and it fits the Queen. The ability is easy to create in the editor. very easy to understand and execute. The strength lies in the decision making. It can be used to make any Zerg building being built faster AND you can use it on a building that morphs. (Lair, Hive, Lurker den, Spire)


But what is the point of this spell?!

When I play as Zerg, I don´t feel like I have that much stuff to do, especially not with the weaker inject. I spread creep and I select all hatcheries and build units. I am rarely doing anything in my base. This small spell would give more decisions for the Queen and more reasons for a Zerg player to focus on his base. A skilled Zerg player can pay attention to the building phase of his structures. If he chooses, he can use his energy from the Queen and his focus to make certain buildings being built faster. It would Zerg a little bit more unpredictable and can be a fun addition in ZvZ.



Personally, that's a negative, as in the long run, it screws up the timings for other players more than for the Zerg itself. It's also a spell you will use periodically once you start building/morphing something - considering Z doesn't build or morph things simultaneously all that often, it doesn't really promote decision making. That's a gut feeling more than an educated insight though.
On October 21 2012 22:00 Kabel wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
- A modified version of Inject. I will try to explain it clearly.

It makes larvas spawn X% faster from a hatchery.

On top of that, you can not upgrade, morph into lair/hive or train Queens from the hatchery while it is being injected.

You can not use inject on a hatchery that is already busy morphing, training or researching.

You CAN still produce units from larvas. As normal.


Why? The reason it shuts down the other functions of the hatchery is mainly due to the editor. The new Inject gives the hatchery a buff that manipulates the Time Scale. All time related things is faster on the hatchery, including spawning larvas. Hence, researches and morphs would be built faster too, just as if it were chrono boosted.

One way to overcome this problem is to simply make it unusable on a hatchery that is busy with other stuff. It also adds a small decision making to Inject. The best thing is NOT to always use it as soon as you can.

Why is it a good thing that larvas are spawned faster? I think this will have a positive effect on the gameplay. In SC2 I do not like the fact that Zerg can save huge amount of larvas, store up resources and within 30 seconds build 50-75 units when needed. Just like that. I prefer if Zerg builds units in smaller ways more often. It would force a stream of flooding Zerg units roaming across the map to the rally point, rather than big blobs. Don't get me wrong. Zergs ability to spawn many units at the same time is important and unique. It will still be possible. Just not to the absurd extent we see in SC2.

It also forces Inject to be used at appropriate times. If you have 3 larvas in a hatchery and no resources to use them, there is no reason to Inject. This will add another small type of decision making to the spell. It would also mean that Zerg would probably be the race that macros the most, since larvas can pop quite fast and often. Right now in Starbow, I don´t feel I have to macro that much due to the ability to create large waves of units when needed. I can look at the enemy army attacking and just "Ok he has that shit. Now I make X units of this type and I kill his army." If the macro is divided into smaller steps, each step requires its own decision.

+ Show Spoiler +
The production waves in SC2/Starbow:

- 8 drones
- 22 Hydras
- 6 Infestors
- 40 Zerglings
- 16 drones

With new inject:

- 4 drones
- 2 drones
- 2 hydras
- 6 hydras
- 4 Hydras
- 16 Zerglings
- 4 Zerglings
- 4 Zerglings
- 2 Infestors
- 12 Drones


On top of all this, I will maybe make it usable on Zerg units that morph. So you can target a morphing lurker, baneling, overseer, broodlord or corruptor and it will morph faster. This would add a bit more versatility to the spell. (even though it feels a bit like Chrono boost)

But it all comes down to how I manage to create this in the editor. I am working on it now and there are some restrictions I need to overcome. But the result will probably be something like this.


That on the other hand sounds like a great idea! Instead of giving the Zerg instant larvae, it forces the player to decide whether it's time to tech or produce units! I'm really curious as to whether it's going to emphasize the drone vs unit aspect of larvae management or just leave it as it is (as far as I know, right now saturation for Zerg is achieved quickly and easily?), but on paper, it seems like a very interesting modification.
On October 21 2012 22:00 Kabel wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

What is wrong with SmileZergs cloud idea?

Nothing is wrong with it. Its a solid idea: Queen cast a cloud on the ground that speeds up the production of eggs, morphing units and build time for buildings. (And maybe adds some kind of protective effect)

- I have contacted some more experienced mapmakers. Its very hard to get the spell to do all this. I have been suggested to "chop" up the spell in smaller spells.

- I need a model for the "cloud" and the editor seems to have nothing that fits.

- I don´t think it changes that much with Zerg macro. The main effect is to cast it on the morphing eggs at the hatchery to speed up unit production. It feels kinda like Chrono boost and is more of a Protoss thing: speed up individual units.
A more Zergy thing would be: speed up the rate at which units can be produced.


If I create the new "Inject" that makes a hatchery spawn larvas faster it will lead to some positive aspects on gameplay - smaller waves of Zerg units more often rather than big blobs of Zerg units more seldom. And Zerg gets more to do with his macro.

The other Queen spell speeds up a building being built. This is a part of the cloud idea and this would give Zerg some more stuff to do in the base. Its just an individual target instead of an area of effect spell.

Maybe I can make Inject speed up a lurker, banelings, oversseer etc being morphed too, which would still be a part of the cloud idea, but now with an individual target.

So I just don´t think its necessay to speed up the build time of the eggs from hatcheries, if the larva spawn rate instead is increased-


I think we should avoid modifying multiple aspects of macromanagement at once, as in with one process/action, as well as remember that whatever effect a Queen will have on a hatchery, there will be mutliple Queens and multiple hatcheries.
"Silver Edge can't break my hope" - Kryptt 2016 || "Chrono is not a debuff, you just get rekt" - Guru 2016
Anya
Profile Joined October 2012
Russian Federation17 Posts
October 21 2012 13:44 GMT
#2425
On October 21 2012 22:26 Danko__ wrote:
You cant choose what to do with that spell.


NOPE. You do choose! You choose units which build. And it is the spirit, i mean, it is main thing.

makmeatt
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
2024 Posts
October 21 2012 13:46 GMT
#2426
On October 21 2012 22:44 Anya wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 21 2012 22:26 Danko__ wrote:
You cant choose what to do with that spell.


NOPE. You do choose! You choose units which build. And it is the spirit, i mean, it is main thing.


You would choose which units to build without larva inject as well. I'd go as far as to say your choices on that matter would have a much greater impact without it, adding even more depth to macromanagement. Consider drones vs units issue.
"Silver Edge can't break my hope" - Kryptt 2016 || "Chrono is not a debuff, you just get rekt" - Guru 2016
hipo
Profile Joined November 2010
France482 Posts
October 21 2012 14:14 GMT
#2427
You can't choose how you use inject, but you have to choose between using inject and using creep spread or transfuse since you can't do both with only one queen per hatchery.
Anya
Profile Joined October 2012
Russian Federation17 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-21 14:32:24
October 21 2012 14:29 GMT
#2428
On October 21 2012 22:46 JohnMadden wrote:

You would choose which units to build without larva inject as well. I'd go as far as to say your choices on that matter would have a much greater impact without it, adding even more depth to macromanagement. Consider drones vs units issue.


How you dont understand that choose: build drones or build other units - it is the main dilemma in zerg game. In theory, zerg can boost economy faster than other races but danger of attack make him careful

All game zerg make his choice: make very fast economy or make very fast army.

I like zergs, i like Starbow but if we replace injection with something clever bla-bla-bla i'll have to chnge race, i guess

On October 21 2012 23:14 hipo wrote:
...you have to choose between using inject and using creep spread or transfuse since you can't do both with only one queen per hatchery.


and it is another, addition choice!
Deleted User 97295
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1137 Posts
October 21 2012 14:35 GMT
#2429
--- Nuked ---
Anya
Profile Joined October 2012
Russian Federation17 Posts
October 21 2012 14:41 GMT
#2430
On October 21 2012 23:35 Laertes wrote:
No zerg is still OP, cause their economy hasn't been TOUCHED. Zerg can expand to 4 bases quickly vs a protoss 2 base and they will ALWAYS have more units, so you have to pressure them constantly and you have to play with near perfection to win while the zerg can make as many mistakes as he likes, its stupid as heck and its why zerg sucks to play against, no one even wants to play PvZ or TvZ on Na.


Can you share some Vods? Today i played 4 ZvP's (2 of them with danko - not counted ^^) and 100% of them lost

Economy touched very hardly. As i said less larvaes and weaker Injection do their job
hipo
Profile Joined November 2010
France482 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-21 15:03:48
October 21 2012 14:43 GMT
#2431
On October 21 2012 23:35 Laertes wrote:
No zerg is still OP, cause their economy hasn't been TOUCHED. Zerg can expand to 4 bases quickly vs a protoss 2 base and they will ALWAYS have more units, so you have to pressure them constantly and you have to play with near perfection to win while the zerg can make as many mistakes as he likes, its stupid as heck and its why zerg sucks to play against, no one even wants to play PvZ or TvZ on Na.

The reduced build time for workers (20s instead of 22s) does actually have an impact on Zerg economy because it benefit more to Protoss and Terran than it does to Zerg. PvZ and TvZ might not be balanced yet, but it's already much better than before.

On October 21 2012 23:41 Anya wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 21 2012 23:35 Laertes wrote:
No zerg is still OP, cause their economy hasn't been TOUCHED. Zerg can expand to 4 bases quickly vs a protoss 2 base and they will ALWAYS have more units, so you have to pressure them constantly and you have to play with near perfection to win while the zerg can make as many mistakes as he likes, its stupid as heck and its why zerg sucks to play against, no one even wants to play PvZ or TvZ on Na.


Can you share some Vods? Today i played 4 ZvP's (2 of them with danko - not counted ^^) and 100% of them lost

Economy touched very hardly. As i said less larvaes and weaker Injection do their job

Larva spam rate and inject haven't been touched recently. You lost because your macro isn't good enough (you don't build enough macro hatch and you missed a lot inject...).
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
October 21 2012 16:32 GMT
#2432
Stream on EU http://twitch.tv/yck7
Creator of Starbow
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-21 16:52:25
October 21 2012 16:39 GMT
#2433
I'm throwing out a map editor question here:

When a hatchery/lair/hive is using the Train Queen, Research or Morph abilities, I try to make Inject to NOT be casted on it.

Anyone knows how to solve this in the data editor?
Creator of Starbow
Roblin
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden948 Posts
October 21 2012 17:13 GMT
#2434
On October 22 2012 01:39 Kabel wrote:
I'm throwing out a map editor question here:

When a hatchery/lair/hive is using the Train Queen, Research or Morph abilities, I try to make Inject to NOT be casted on it.

Anyone knows how to solve this in the data editor?

can you make it so that casting inject cancels all research, upgrades, etc (including everything in queue)?
and then queues up something for itself, like a dummy unit?
and as long as the dummy unit is under production the hatch produces larvae faster. (or the dummy unit is a larvae?!)

result: casting spell on researching hatch cancels the research (which automaticly refunds the research in full due to how cancelling stuff works), casting spell on injected hatch resets cooldown.

also makes the spell possible to manually interrupt by simply cancelling the production of the dummy unit.
I'm better today than I was yesterday!
Apolo
Profile Joined May 2010
Portugal1259 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-21 17:14:42
October 21 2012 17:14 GMT
#2435
I really wish SC2 was more like this. :o Well done OP.
purakushi
Profile Joined August 2012
United States3301 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-21 17:21:51
October 21 2012 17:17 GMT
#2436
On October 21 2012 22:43 JohnMadden wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 21 2012 22:00 Kabel wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
- A modified version of Inject. I will try to explain it clearly.

It makes larvas spawn X% faster from a hatchery.

On top of that, you can not upgrade, morph into lair/hive or train Queens from the hatchery while it is being injected.

You can not use inject on a hatchery that is already busy morphing, training or researching.

You CAN still produce units from larvas. As normal.


Why? The reason it shuts down the other functions of the hatchery is mainly due to the editor. The new Inject gives the hatchery a buff that manipulates the Time Scale. All time related things is faster on the hatchery, including spawning larvas. Hence, researches and morphs would be built faster too, just as if it were chrono boosted.

One way to overcome this problem is to simply make it unusable on a hatchery that is busy with other stuff. It also adds a small decision making to Inject. The best thing is NOT to always use it as soon as you can.

Why is it a good thing that larvas are spawned faster? I think this will have a positive effect on the gameplay. In SC2 I do not like the fact that Zerg can save huge amount of larvas, store up resources and within 30 seconds build 50-75 units when needed. Just like that. I prefer if Zerg builds units in smaller ways more often. It would force a stream of flooding Zerg units roaming across the map to the rally point, rather than big blobs. Don't get me wrong. Zergs ability to spawn many units at the same time is important and unique. It will still be possible. Just not to the absurd extent we see in SC2.

It also forces Inject to be used at appropriate times. If you have 3 larvas in a hatchery and no resources to use them, there is no reason to Inject. This will add another small type of decision making to the spell. It would also mean that Zerg would probably be the race that macros the most, since larvas can pop quite fast and often. Right now in Starbow, I don´t feel I have to macro that much due to the ability to create large waves of units when needed. I can look at the enemy army attacking and just "Ok he has that shit. Now I make X units of this type and I kill his army." If the macro is divided into smaller steps, each step requires its own decision.

+ Show Spoiler +
The production waves in SC2/Starbow:

- 8 drones
- 22 Hydras
- 6 Infestors
- 40 Zerglings
- 16 drones

With new inject:

- 4 drones
- 2 drones
- 2 hydras
- 6 hydras
- 4 Hydras
- 16 Zerglings
- 4 Zerglings
- 4 Zerglings
- 2 Infestors
- 12 Drones


On top of all this, I will maybe make it usable on Zerg units that morph. So you can target a morphing lurker, baneling, overseer, broodlord or corruptor and it will morph faster. This would add a bit more versatility to the spell. (even though it feels a bit like Chrono boost)

But it all comes down to how I manage to create this in the editor. I am working on it now and there are some restrictions I need to overcome. But the result will probably be something like this.


That on the other hand sounds like a great idea! Instead of giving the Zerg instant larvae, it forces the player to decide whether it's time to tech or produce units! I'm really curious as to whether it's going to emphasize the drone vs unit aspect of larvae management or just leave it as it is (as far as I know, right now saturation for Zerg is achieved quickly and easily?), but on paper, it seems like a very interesting modification.


+1 to this. I like the idea of inject making larvae spawn X% faster from a hatchery for Y seconds. It makes inject necessary while not detracting from the use of later game macro hatcheries, as well as makes unit creation versus teching choices more important.
T P Z sagi
lefix
Profile Joined February 2011
Germany1082 Posts
October 21 2012 17:20 GMT
#2437
so, only having watched a handful games so far, can you give some info on what the ideal starbow map would look like? and what different restrictions starbow maps have?
Map of the Month | The Planetary Workshop | SC2Melee.net
purakushi
Profile Joined August 2012
United States3301 Posts
October 21 2012 17:23 GMT
#2438
On October 22 2012 02:20 lefix wrote:
so, only having watched a handful games so far, can you give some info on what the ideal starbow map would look like? and what different restrictions starbow maps have?


You can find some information about the Starbow map situation on page 120 of this thread.
T P Z sagi
Seldentar
Profile Joined May 2011
United States888 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-21 18:06:41
October 21 2012 17:36 GMT
#2439
Which map is most popular? I'm having trouble finding games.

I love the mod, I just think it needs more advertisement. Now would be the perfect time since the forums are very dissatisfied with the current state of SC2. The more people play this, the more it will catch on.

Edit: Nvm realized I need to join the Starbow chat channel instead of queing
Zain3
Profile Joined September 2012
Sweden45 Posts
October 21 2012 18:23 GMT
#2440
just one question.. since you want choice for zerg..
why not make larvae injections cost 25 and tumors cost 50 or 75 so you need to make a choice.. more units or an alarm system/defence etc etc

why not?
This is stupid!
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