• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 13:43
CEST 19:43
KST 02:43
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Maestros of the Game: Week 1/Play-in Preview9[ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt2: Take-Off7[ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt1: Runway132v2 & SC: Evo Complete: Weekend Double Feature4Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy9
Community News
Weekly Cups (August 25-31): Clem's Last Straw?30Weekly Cups (Aug 18-24): herO dethrones MaxPax6Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris46Weekly Cups (Aug 11-17): MaxPax triples again!15Weekly Cups (Aug 4-10): MaxPax wins a triple6
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (August 25-31): Clem's Last Straw? Heaven's Balance Suggestions (roast me) Speculation of future Wardii series Geoff 'iNcontroL' Robinson has passed away #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time
Tourneys
LiuLi Cup - September 2025 Tournaments Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris Monday Nights Weeklies
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 489 Bannable Offense Mutation # 488 What Goes Around Mutation # 487 Think Fast Mutation # 486 Watch the Skies
Brood War
General
Starcraft at lower levels TvP BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ ASL20 General Discussion BW General Discussion Victoria gamers
Tourneys
[ASL20] Ro24 Group F [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Is there English video for group selection for ASL [IPSL] CSLAN Review and CSLPRO Reimagined!
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
General RTS Discussion Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Nintendo Switch Thread Mechabellum
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread High temperatures on bridge(s) Gtx660 graphics card replacement
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale
Blogs
A very expensive lesson on ma…
Garnet
hello world
radishsoup
Lemme tell you a thing o…
JoinTheRain
How Culture and Conflict Imp…
TrAiDoS
RTS Design in Hypercoven
a11
Evil Gacha Games and the…
ffswowsucks
INDEPENDIENTE LA CTM
XenOsky
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2429 users

Map Design: Understanding Circle Syndrome - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 All
monitor
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2404 Posts
January 20 2012 01:33 GMT
#21
On January 20 2012 10:30 Barrin wrote:
btw Bel'Shir Beach Winter is well within the bounds of acceptable circle syndrome


No way. To me it is one of the worst maps with circle syndrome! Tbh I'm writing a thread about this stuff right now...
Mapmaker & TLMC Judge. Amygdala, Frostline, Crimson Court, and Korhal Compound (WoL).
sCnDiamond
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany340 Posts
January 20 2012 01:37 GMT
#22
On January 20 2012 10:33 monitor wrote:
Tbh I'm writing a thread about this stuff right now...
Looking forward to it!
formerly spinnaker.
IronManSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States2119 Posts
January 20 2012 01:38 GMT
#23
If you are writing a more broad thread about circle syndrome, please link it in this thread and i'll highlight them in the OP.
SC2 Mapmaker || twitter: @ironmansc || Ohana & Mech Depot || 3x TLMC finalist || www.twitch.tv/sc2mapstream
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
January 20 2012 02:15 GMT
#24
--- Nuked ---
Gfire
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1699 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-20 05:36:21
January 20 2012 04:46 GMT
#25
Well, I think Bel Shir Beach is interesting use of circle syndrome. The gap in the center sort of changes things. It emphasized the Circle Syndrome, almost to a point that it is a good thing. The circular aspect to the map is something players have to take into account, but they don't have a majorly wide central area to control. Rather, there are two smaller, but far apart areas to control.

The problem of final expansions being too close together is still in existence, but it's not that big of a deal. The last bases might not be taken, but that's not entirely a bad thing, considering these last bases might be different ones depending on how the players expand. This makes it dynamic, and makes all the expos useful in some situations but not others. This doesn't exactly feel right, to have unusable bases, but it's not inherently bad, so long as there are enough without them and it's not the same bases not being used in every single game.

I think the map isn't entirely optimal, but the games on it don't seem to be affected negatively, by any means. It does cause interesting base-trade situations, where players have expanded in multiple directions and it is difficult to kill off all the bases. Of course base trades happen more often on the map than others due to the massive hole in the middle (which I think is cool to have on one map in the pool.)

What is your definition of 'Circle Syndrome'?

This is a hard question. Defining it, or even knowing it is there, is a difficult thing to do. I think the most obvious example of Circle Syndrome is when most the bases, or a good number of bases - not usually including main (except maybe on a map like Deception) and sometimes including the natural - form a circular shape on the map, where usually the bases are approximately spaced evenly throughout it. This can appear to a lesser extend, where the spacing could change.

The circle itself doesn't have to be a circle, but only a closed loop, a rectangle or oval of some kind. The dividing line on this circle, where one player's bases end and the other player's bases begin, can be ambiguous, arguably a good thing for the sake of diversity. Typically the further apart these "last" bases for each player are, the less extreme the Circle Syndrome. Usually this correlates to the shape of the circuit. The shorter the sides where these bases are, the less space they will have between them.

Usually you cannot keep an ambiguous dividing line while maintaining a large amount of distance between the bases. An exception would be Daybreak, where there are contested expansions but they are far enough from a base to either side that they are safe to take for either player.

This circular shape is what would give Circle Syndrome it's name, so I think that's the best thing to define it by. Anything else would probably be considered a side-affect of Circle Syndrome. Thus I wouldn't say Circle Syndrome is inherently bad, by that definition, but it has the potential, and perhaps likelihood, to cause harmful side-affects.

Why is circle syndrome a bad thing to have in a map?

Well, as I just said, it has the potential to have side-affects which could negatively impact gameplay. It's not really tied to Racial balance, as far as I can see, so fortunately a little Circle Syndrome can't cause too much harm that way, but it can make for poor gameplay, usually meaning players will stick to a low number of bases, because the later ones are too close the opponent's later ones.

Perhaps this could be countered by simply making a large map with a lot of bases, where all the bases would never be taken but you could still expand in either direction around the circle and, in any given game, any base might be used. I might even but a map like Tal Darim Altar into this category, at least in Cross Positions. On that map, you can expand in either direction, although the bases are a bit far apart because the map is so large, but you will almost never run into the opponent's expansions, just because that point is so far away and you will have so many bases, the likelyhood of reaching that point in a game is pretty low. It's not the best example, being a 4p map, but I think the concept has potential.

How do you know if your map has circle syndrome?

Well, I think you should look for these dividing lines, between the player's last expansions they take on the edges, once all bases have been taken. There may be multiple different possibilities for where these are, depending on how the game goes. If this results in any two bases of opposing sides being particularly close to each other, there is probably Circle Syndrome.

There may be exceptions in some odd case where the circle is broken at some point other than the dividing line, but those bases are still the most viable option. This seems unlikely to me, and if it is possible, I think it would still cause the same issues as Circle Syndrome and might still be considered Circle Syndrome.

If your map has circle syndrome, what are ways you can fix it?

Adding bases not on the circle helps, because you give the players more bases to take. Islands or more central expansions are good. Typically the circle makes a ring around the edges of the map, excluding one corner for the main base. Alternate bases would be either outside or inside this circle. For the sake of diversity, it might be good to have some of both.

Also making the points furthest from either player's main nice and long and spacing the bases apart there helps a lot. Really breaking the circle, by extending walk distance between two adjacent bases, right at the dividing line is good. It's also good to have multiple ways to split the map, and that is more complicated. Having a single base far from either adjacent base, like the contested bases on Daybreak, is a good way to do that.

Daybreak also shows that the key "split points" on the map are right along the line which hits these expansions, and it's designed in a way that you could split with those bases going to either side. Usually you can use different vulnerabilities to encourage one player or the other to take them depending on the situation.

What are the major problems that can occur if your map has circle syndrome?

I guess I already sort of covered the problems I was thinking of above. I think there are more potential problems, though, and others can probably explain those better, as my understanding is limited.

I think everyone sort of has their own ideas about what it is, so the communication about the subject are vague. It's also not very figured out, so we are all still just speculating at some of it, or not even trying to speculate at a lot of it. It's a fairly controversial subject.

I will say that I don't think anyone should blindly believe Circle Syndrome is a bad thing, especially since the definition is so vague along with the fact that we really haven't seen it used to it's full potential yet. I think it could potentially just be a style of map, where, if done right, it is actually fine and the problems are minimal if they exist at all. I don't think the issues it has are practically as bad as they seem to be theoretically, or at least as much as some people make them out to be. We need more time to see for sure.
all's fair in love and melodies
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
January 20 2012 06:40 GMT
#26
One thing that most people are overlooking is that there's no reason why every base on a map has to be usable. As long as there is an appropriate number of viable bases (imo at least 5 or 6 because zerg should be given ample late game room to play) there can be any number of additional neutral shitty circle syndromey bases. It irks all us designers because it seems like waste but it might be a very cool option to use in certain situations.

To draw a parallel to help explain what I mean, think of a Settlers of Catan board. There are some great spots, some okay spots, and lots of bad spots for settlements. Because you can't have settlements in adjacent locations, the way players develop will close out possible locations based on how the game plays out. (This actually begins to occur during the placement phase.) The abundance of choices causes headaches for sure, but it's just part of the game. There are way more viable spots than can actually be used during the game.

I haven't thought about it extensively, but I ask: is there a reason why SC2 can't have maps like this?

(Yes, I realize there are all sorts of issues that arise but I mean, theoretically, used well, it is a legitimate design to have a map with bases that, depending on how the game plays out, will never be viable.)
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
monitor
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2404 Posts
January 20 2012 18:36 GMT
#27
On January 20 2012 15:40 EatThePath wrote:
One thing that most people are overlooking is that there's no reason why every base on a map has to be usable. As long as there is an appropriate number of viable bases (imo at least 5 or 6 because zerg should be given ample late game room to play) there can be any number of additional neutral shitty circle syndromey bases. It irks all us designers because it seems like waste but it might be a very cool option to use in certain situations.

To draw a parallel to help explain what I mean, think of a Settlers of Catan board. There are some great spots, some okay spots, and lots of bad spots for settlements. Because you can't have settlements in adjacent locations, the way players develop will close out possible locations based on how the game plays out. (This actually begins to occur during the placement phase.) The abundance of choices causes headaches for sure, but it's just part of the game. There are way more viable spots than can actually be used during the game.

I haven't thought about it extensively, but I ask: is there a reason why SC2 can't have maps like this?

(Yes, I realize there are all sorts of issues that arise but I mean, theoretically, used well, it is a legitimate design to have a map with bases that, depending on how the game plays out, will never be viable.)


There is a very clear reason why bases have to be usable actually. If you've got bases that aren't useful, I'd almost say that the map is broken. Every space on the map should be useful in some way (map control, harassment, expanding, engaging, counterattacking, surrounding, or spotting drops), and if you can just put down 'neutral shitty bases' then that area needs to be redesigned so it is actually useful. Sometimes this can mean just adjusting the area and space around it, but other times it can mean scrapping the map. Otherwise you have a map that isn't fully functional because parts of it aren't useful.
Mapmaker & TLMC Judge. Amygdala, Frostline, Crimson Court, and Korhal Compound (WoL).
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
January 20 2012 22:50 GMT
#28
On January 21 2012 03:36 monitor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 20 2012 15:40 EatThePath wrote:
One thing that most people are overlooking is that there's no reason why every base on a map has to be usable. As long as there is an appropriate number of viable bases (imo at least 5 or 6 because zerg should be given ample late game room to play) there can be any number of additional neutral shitty circle syndromey bases. It irks all us designers because it seems like waste but it might be a very cool option to use in certain situations.

To draw a parallel to help explain what I mean, think of a Settlers of Catan board. There are some great spots, some okay spots, and lots of bad spots for settlements. Because you can't have settlements in adjacent locations, the way players develop will close out possible locations based on how the game plays out. (This actually begins to occur during the placement phase.) The abundance of choices causes headaches for sure, but it's just part of the game. There are way more viable spots than can actually be used during the game.

I haven't thought about it extensively, but I ask: is there a reason why SC2 can't have maps like this?

(Yes, I realize there are all sorts of issues that arise but I mean, theoretically, used well, it is a legitimate design to have a map with bases that, depending on how the game plays out, will never be viable.)


There is a very clear reason why bases have to be usable actually. If you've got bases that aren't useful, I'd almost say that the map is broken. Every space on the map should be useful in some way (map control, harassment, expanding, engaging, counterattacking, surrounding, or spotting drops), and if you can just put down 'neutral shitty bases' then that area needs to be redesigned so it is actually useful. Sometimes this can mean just adjusting the area and space around it, but other times it can mean scrapping the map. Otherwise you have a map that isn't fully functional because parts of it aren't useful.


But why?
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
HypertonicHydroponic
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
437 Posts
January 21 2012 05:02 GMT
#29
I think I would have to side with EatThePath on this one... Chupung Ryung.

I think you know what I mean.

+ Show Spoiler [What I mean] +
In case you don't, how many pro games have you seen that actually used the center half bases? I think I've seen 1.5 like that. While you might argue that the middle of the map is still being used for army movement, I would have to say "but there's a base there"... and most of the time it is not being used as a base. And yet in those 1.5 times it was used, it seemed to make a difference. There are plenty of instances like this in very popular maps. Some features are just not as used or useable as others. Should we strive to make every last feature useable? Maybe, in an idealist sense -- but every feature is still not going to be used every game even if every feature is quite user friendly. In that way, I could see purposefully adding a quirky unpopular feature that only WhiteRa or TLO will use on a TL attack without harming the integrity of the map. One day it will make it into pimpest plays when all of the useable features won't.


@ EatThePath -- Nice Catan reference, btw.
[P] The Watery Archives -- http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=279070
SidianTheBard
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2474 Posts
January 26 2012 09:05 GMT
#30
I think Ironman ran out of new topics...
Creator of Abyssal Reef, Ascension to Aiur, Battle on the Boardwalk, Habitation Station, Honorgrounds, IPL Darkness Falls, King's Cove, Korhal Carnage Knockout & Moonlight Madness.
Prev 1 2 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 6h 17m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 605
Livibee 106
BRAT_OK 70
MindelVK 25
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 30762
Mini 924
EffOrt 895
BeSt 268
ggaemo 192
firebathero 175
sSak 83
PianO 47
Nal_rA 47
Mong 42
[ Show more ]
Mind 40
Sexy 38
Aegong 27
Rock 27
Movie 26
Backho 20
Dewaltoss 19
Shine 18
sas.Sziky 16
yabsab 13
ivOry 10
ajuk12(nOOB) 8
HiyA 8
Dota 2
Gorgc7586
qojqva3237
XcaliburYe127
LuMiX0
Counter-Strike
Fnx 1986
fl0m1749
oskar202
Other Games
FrodaN1740
Grubby1046
ceh9460
Hui .264
KnowMe150
ArmadaUGS140
Trikslyr106
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta59
• iHatsuTV 7
• Reevou 5
• Kozan
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Migwel
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV525
League of Legends
• Nemesis6063
Counter-Strike
• imaqtpie394
• Shiphtur224
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
6h 17m
The PondCast
16h 17m
RSL Revival
16h 17m
Maru vs SHIN
MaNa vs MaxPax
Maestros of the Game
23h 17m
Classic vs TriGGeR
Reynor vs SHIN
OSC
1d 9h
MaNa vs SHIN
SKillous vs ShoWTimE
Bunny vs TBD
Cham vs TBD
RSL Revival
1d 16h
Reynor vs Astrea
Classic vs sOs
Maestros of the Game
1d 23h
Serral vs Ryung
ByuN vs Zoun
BSL Team Wars
2 days
Team Bonyth vs Team Dewalt
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
GuMiho vs Cham
ByuN vs TriGGeR
[ Show More ]
Cosmonarchy
2 days
TriGGeR vs YoungYakov
YoungYakov vs HonMonO
HonMonO vs TriGGeR
Maestros of the Game
2 days
Solar vs Bunny
Clem vs Rogue
[BSL 2025] Weekly
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
Cure vs Bunny
Creator vs Zoun
Maestros of the Game
3 days
Maru vs Lambo
herO vs ShoWTimE
BSL Team Wars
4 days
Team Hawk vs Team Sziky
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
Monday Night Weeklies
4 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Season 18: Qualifier 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
HCC Europe

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
Maestros of the Game
Sisters' Call Cup
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025

Upcoming

LASL Season 20
2025 Chongqing Offline CUP
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup #2
RSL Revival: Season 2
EC S1
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
Skyesports Masters 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.