EPTAnd i am sure Terrans don't want to hear more zerg QQs, we all don't.
IMO, z v p metagame will always be first due to the possibility of cannoning behind the mineral line, you will not kill that in time with drones.
[D] Neutral supply depot no longer necessity - Page 9
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TolEranceNA
Canada434 Posts
And i am sure Terrans don't want to hear more zerg QQs, we all don't. IMO, z v p metagame will always be first due to the possibility of cannoning behind the mineral line, you will not kill that in time with drones. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 03 2011 03:07 TolEranceNA wrote: Though as much as love the discovery of this trick, i still don't see a point removing neutral structure at the bottom, it just makes zerg scouting even harder. And i am sure Terrans don't want to hear more zerg QQs, we all don't. IMO, z v p metagame will always be first due to the possibility of cannoning behind the mineral line, you will not kill that in time with drones. well, if you use that trick perfectly, you might be able to kill canons behind mineral lines... you could just go next to the canon, clickspam the next mineral patch until workers are stacked and then attack, clickspam, attack... dont know, would have to be tested if it works and is efficient in terms of mining... | ||
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Yaki
France4234 Posts
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The Final Boss
United States1839 Posts
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mystrdat
Czech Republic5 Posts
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ChickenSlim
Canada40 Posts
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Iggyhopper
United States259 Posts
On September 03 2011 03:07 TolEranceNA wrote: Though as much as love the discovery of this trick, i still don't see a point removing neutral structure at the bottom, it just makes zerg scouting even harder. And i am sure Terrans don't want to hear more zerg QQs, we all don't. IMO, z v p metagame will always be first due to the possibility of cannoning behind the mineral line, you will not kill that in time with drones. If you break the wall-in, expand somewhere else, especially against P. I don't know about T. | ||
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BadgerBadger8264
Netherlands409 Posts
This is huge against those attacks if you happen to be caught with your pants down in a ladder game, to the point where those attacks simply will become irrelevant as zergs learn to use this tactic because, at best, they'll leave the opponent even IF you do a hatch first and IF you don't properly block your ramp. This basically makes them useless if it becomes common knowledge outside of games against noobs. I can very well see this tactic reduce the efficiency of cannon rushes in PvP too, as probes can stack up against pylons behind the mineral line and kill them before the cannon finishes. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 03 2011 06:23 BadgerBadger8264 wrote: Wow at the people saying "this is inefficient", are you for real? Listen, if the terran or protoss has 3 near-completed pylons or 2 bunkers down at your ramp, you're pretty much done for as he will kill your expansion with cannons/marines and there's nothing you can do about it. EXCEPT for this, which will leave you even OR EVEN AHEAD of your opponent. Na, people are not saying it is inefficient. But when you go 14-15hatch vs Protoss and then pull 15drones and not mine with them for 30sec, you will not mine (15*~40min/min) ~300minerals. P won't will lose 300minerals worth of pylons. P will lose time on his nexus, you will lose time on (your pool) and a lot of larva (due to not building stuff from your base). In my eyes you come out even after this for the risk of losing, if he does a better canonrush (like under Tal'darim ledge 1canon to protect high ground canons...), with the only difference being that you did a hatchfirst instead of a poolfirst opening, which is not the same, but only slightly better economical, but Protoss is allowed to cut canons too, because there can't be a 1base roach/speedling allin. But I guess, the only way to find out how viable hatch first is, is to test it with this trick numerous times... Also in ZvT you always have to expect bunkers and in PvZ it doesn't kill you in the first place to stay 1base slightly longer, because they dont have mules and have to prepare for a roach allin (which is not really viable vs terran) | ||
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BadgerBadger8264
Netherlands409 Posts
Na, people are not saying it is inefficient. But when you go 14-15hatch vs Protoss and then pull 15drones and not mine with them for 30sec, you will not mine (15*~40min/min) ~300minerals. P won't will lose 300minerals worth of pylons. I think you're grossly underestimating what's going on, instead of a 14/14 pool/gas, you can now toss down a 13-16 hatch safely (big economic increase), he'll also delay his nexus REALLY, REALLY long, to the point where your hatchery is finished and you have 16 drones ready to mine while he has 16 probes on one base with no tech but a forge. In the minerals you lose you're also not counting the cancelled cannons that cost a bit of money (if he throws down 3 cannons that's 120 minerals). It's hard to see you coming out of this as even when you use this technique like Destiny does (compared to previous 14/14 builds with a delayed hatch). You won't lose much time on your larva, if it takes you a minute to kill off the contain and you used all your larva you will lose 1-2 larva tops from your main, that's the equivalent of cutting 2 workers from your build, hardly a loss. In my eyes you come out even after this for the risk of losing, if he does a better canonrush (like under Tal'darim ledge 1canon to protect high ground canons...) True, I still won't open hatch first on Tal'Darim, but you can do it safely on most other maps using this technique, granted you put a drone on the probe to prevent wall-ins behind minerals. | ||
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Iggyhopper
United States259 Posts
On September 03 2011 06:45 Big J wrote: But if you break the wall-in, you can get to 24+ workers faster than he can, especially with queen.Na, people are not saying it is inefficient. But when you go 14-15hatch vs Protoss and then pull 15drones and not mine with them for 30sec, you will not mine (15*~40min/min) ~300minerals. P won't will lose 300minerals worth of pylons. True, there is a window, but you will close the gap way before any kind of attack. | ||
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ManusCelerDei
United Kingdom56 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 03 2011 08:23 ManusCelerDei wrote: I give it till the next patch...seriously this is a cool thing! It's like the drone drill, blizzard are seriously missing the point if they patch that out ^_^ it's a super cool trick to get people to play a "real" style. Now i'm just waiting for limited size control groups to force better-ness into the world Why not just single unit control? Zoom in so you can only see 1unit at a time and blizzard please stop that hotkey bullshit! Wouldn't this be waaaaaaaaaaaaay funnier? | ||
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MinimalistSC2
United States121 Posts
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Michaels
419 Posts
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XRaDiiX
Canada1730 Posts
On September 03 2011 03:36 The Final Boss wrote: This is a cool trick that Zergs should learn to help practice on the ladder, but I really don't see any reason to remove the neutral depot. It stops stupid cheeses, just let it stay and be there. This^ Stop trying to get the neutral Supply depot removed u guys just want to be able to cheese or all in etc... i too hope the Neutral supply depot stays there. Just let it be. This Tactic does not make the Neutral Supply Depot Redundant | ||
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Khainer
Netherlands54 Posts
After that game i tried it vs a Very Easy AI so i had plenty time to try and stack my drones like i succefully did on Xelnaga before. But on Shattered Temple the drones didn't stack but ran up the ramp. So am i missing some special requirement? | ||
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[Noman]
19 Posts
I tried this in both western positions on Abyssal Caverns, and in both cases the drones do not stack up at the point of the pylons. They have a position closer to the mineral patches in the base. I even tried the 3rds but then they stack up differently too. I don't think there is much that can be done except prevent the 3 pylons from going up. Perhaps there are little enough maps to just thumbsdown them but it would suck to base the veto preference based on one (very cool) trick's viability. Perhaps we should make a list of working/not working positions on maps and see how much the trick gets is. If someone compiled this list I would be more than happy to see it. | ||
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Atj
Sweden17 Posts
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Hossinaut
United States453 Posts
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