A Korean Protoss pro MilkyWay has just released a method to completely stop apylon/bunker wall in at the opponent's ramp between the base and the natural.
I personally believe that artificial controls over game plays must be minimized, so I'm creating a new thread to inform this tip, encouraging foreign tourneys that use neutral supply depot to prevent wall in rush to remove those depots from the map, since the particular play can be overcome with the tip Milkyway provided.
The tip is very simple. When your ramp is blocked by your opponent, you first gather your workers near by the ramp. Then you should click on a mineral patch in your natural. The workers will stack right in front of the wall. Modedit: You must have vision of the mineral patch in order for your workers to stay stacked, if not you'll have to spam right click on the patch to keep em stacked, or they'll fan out. You should A-click the wall, which will instantly cause your slack to go loose. You should quickly re-click the mineral patch, and keep doing this until the wall is broken.
According to Milkyway, this method will deal a damage of 50~60(depending on your neat execution and worker counts) per attack and you will most likely break through the wall when the first cannon is about 50% done. You should force cancel the cannon/ other bunkers under construction using your workers.
Milkyway added in comments that Protoss will virtually have 0% winrate if their cannon rush fails this way, since Zerg would suffer almost 0 damage(little mining time), while Protoss would lose 3 pylons and a few cannons. He even recommends Zerg players to induce Protoss to do cannon rush if the zerg player is confident with his execution of this Wall Breaker method. He asserts that this will 100% prevent/stop cannon and bunker walling in rush, if executed properly by the defender. He also said that Zergs should always take expansions first to maximize the advantage.
I never liked foreign tourneys preventing wall in type rushes by artificial means because you actually can prevent it with pure micro skills such as by putting your worker on patrol and using your workers to repel your opponent's probes/scvs/marines. It just required some attention and fair micro.
Anyways, since the hard counter has been released, I hope we do not see neutral supply depots to prevent wall ins on foreign tourney maps anymore.
This is my first thread, so I hope I didn't mess up anything big. Rejoice, Zerg players.
Milkyway's original post was blinded because angry Protoss mobs thumbed down this tip(it was more like prank thumb downs because Protoss is doing so poorly in Korea. With today's result, Protoss's winrate in current GSL dropped to 31%. I'm mentioning this to explain why Milkyway's great thread was blinded, so please stay refrained from off topic balance posts.)
Edit: I am not the original finder of this method, so feel free to post this method in any other boards you see fit as the mod suggested. I, as a newb to TL, am not really familiar with the purpose of each board. I also edited out a word "close" from the description of which mineral patch you have to click. Thanks for pointing it out for me!
On August 31 2011 23:09 Complete wrote: Move this to SC2 General for more awareness possibly? pretty cool thing.
Seconded. While I can sort of see why this was posted here, if this trick actually works this could be pretty significant. Not many people will see this thread here.
Even though I'm protoss(I never walled+cannon rushed anyway), I think it's an important trick for everyone to know, as it can help in quite a few situations.
Still rendering but it shows that if u use the closest mineral patch they just go up and try to get down from the high ground however if u use the farthest away then they stack and you have to quickly do it.
Excellent find, this should really get duplicate posted in SC2 strategy for discussion on effective usage and implications (if this one is being left here for the neutral depot point and future map development)
Seems really interesting. The use of the neutral depo always did seem kind of counter intuitive in my eyes. There is also the call from a lot of players to allow these things to be worked out and this is a great example of that.
I hadn't heard of Milkyway either, great work by him! I wonder how you would discover something like this? I imagine it is through brainstorming and hard work testing it.
On September 01 2011 00:26 Yekke wrote: You can shift click the mineral patch 3-4 times, makes it much easier.
I just tried this in a custom and it works wonders. Click a mineral patch, shift click it two more times, then right click the pylon. Using this method I was able to break the contain 3x faster than a simple right click on the pylon.
Wow, even though starcraft 2 is still somewhat new, I am surprised that milkyway found out something as fundamental as that. Hopefully, the neutral supplydepots will be a relic of the past then, I never liked those either. ^^
On September 01 2011 01:04 iHirO wrote: I havent tried this yet but wouldn't it be possible to do a 6 pool all in vs Protoss and use the drones to break a pylon wall in?
Hm yeah! Or even depots (if the Terran's to slow in reaction). Imba Imba!
I wouldn't act too hastly about the depots, they might patch this sooner or later.
I'm at work so I can't test. Would it be possible to have a few drones left to attack regularly so you get some sustained damage in case you mess up the clicking sometimes and at the same time use the trick with the rest of the drones? Not sure if it would be worth it even if it did work but something to think about.
I just tried it against my friend and he couldn't break it on xel'naga. We're trying it again to see. Obviously it works from the videos posted but I think there might be a few exceptions and still seems to work well against 15h.
i tested 6pool on xel naga w/ drones vs protoss wall..doesnt work. when you click their mineral patch they go away from the wall ..cant use this to rush. i imagine it's like that with every map as well since there's no ramp that's right next to main minerals
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this half the reason why stacking workers before attacking with them is also effective (aside from the surrounding that happens of course)? I'm assuming for a split second while stacked all the workers attack at once.
On September 01 2011 01:30 Zelniq wrote: i tested 6pool on xel naga w/ drones vs protoss wall..doesnt work. when you click their mineral patch they go away from the wall ..cant use this to rush. i imagine it's like that with every map as well since there's no ramp that's right next to main minerals
I tried the same. It didn't work on Xel'naga, but it did work on Steppes of War. So maybe it works for other maps with similar main base architecture.
btw you must have vision of the mineral patch youre clicking on in order for them to stay stacked. if not you can still do it if you keep spam right clicking on the patch before you attack the pylon..if you dont spam, plus dont have vision of the mineral patch, they'll just fan out
Shift click doesn't improve results, you have to manually time when drones collect and then attack, and click minerals right after attack again to reduce idle time. Maps with certain mineral field placements may make this trick not work if drone pathing doesn't stack them at ramp blockade.
Either way this trick is a fair response being cannoned and should probably stay in the game.
I tried it on Typhon Peaks and it seems you can't use the natural expansion patches because the drones wander away. They seem to head to the place in the wall that is closest to the selected mineral patch. Using a patch on the opposite side of the map did the trick; it just requires a bit more finesse (camera hotkeys, shift-queuing on the minerals). This is still an amazing find in any case.
I hope this won't be patched, little tricks like this will be what makes the game closer to brood war and increases the general skillcap (this is true for most competitive games where most of the mechanics used by pros are unintended by the developpers, such as bunnyhops, sidejumps in FPS...ect)
On September 01 2011 02:07 Tuthur wrote: I hope this won't be patched, little tricks like this will be what makes the game closer to brood war and increases the general skillcap (this is true for most competitive games where most of the mechanics used by pros are unintended by the developpers, such as bunnyhops, sidejumps in FPS...ect)
They already got rid of fazing, archon toilet, mining faster, and a bunch of other things.
On September 01 2011 02:03 Resistentialism wrote: I wouldn't get rid of the neutral depots just yet. Overly fast low-ground wall-offs aren't solved by this.
This. I seem to remember that the other half of why the depots were placed was to keep (usually Terrans') two-building walloff from being possible on the low ground. Prevents early game scouting because a player couldn't get a worker there fast enough on big maps if they guessed wrong once.
That is quite the cool trick, though. +1 for you, sir.
This is epic way so that now these cheesy wall offs won't be too strong anymore, imo it is good for the game. Now we don't need neutral depots all the time :D
lol why didn't I think of this before, I saw this 'bug' or trick or w/e to call it happen so many times when u wanna transfer scv's but get forcefielded or something.
On September 01 2011 02:20 orotoss wrote: So does this mean that zerg can safely 14 hatch against protoss now? Would this work on Tal Darim Altar against the 3-pylon wall off?
I think so.. yes. Unfortunatly, I don't think it does anything VS a well placed cannon behind your natural mineral line (the one blocked by pylons). I would still 15 pool ZvP because of that.
Please please make this in SC2 general, this really really needs to be seen and tested by a large group of people, and that place is not SC2 custom map forums
I've just tested this on Xel'naga and I can easily break one pylon and kill the canons with a surround before they complete.
However if your opponent builds the canons flush against the pylons then only one cannon can be destroyed before they complete and the Protoss can simply place another canon or pylon to complete the wall.
On September 01 2011 03:12 iCCup.Diamond wrote: Please please make this in SC2 general, this really really needs to be seen and tested by a large group of people, and that place is not SC2 custom map forums
Feel free to make a copy/repost of the thread on other boards!
So I'm still not clear on how well this work against the Terran wall-in? The 'Toss wall-in is a real pain in the butt, but its expensive to the Protoss player. In contrast, a Terran generally has a Marine or two and if they do this early enough... say with a 10 rax, Zerg is still in deep trouble. I think that by the point you're walled in you'll only have 15 or 16 Drones.... would that be enough to destroy the bunker before Terran has too many marines out?
People at a lower level of play won't be able to understand that if their opponent puts 3 pylons at the bottom of their ramp that they can do this little trick. They most likey will box all their workers and attack they pylons doing basically nothing.
Ok, I tried it. It can work, but a lot of times it won't. It depends on where you spawn on the map. When I was on the top position in metal it worked fine. But when I was on the left side my drones would go to the corner of my main base instead of stacking up in front of the pylon.
I did find a way around this though. If it is not working for you, look at a different base and click and keep clicking on that min patch. Since you don't have vision of it, you will have to shift click on the min patch, a move, repeat. It worked for me and you can see it at the end of this replay when I was messing around with it with my bro.
This doesn't help against players who add a gateway to the wall-off (which is possible, because the pylons will finish). Depending on the timing of a bunker wall-off, it may be ineffective if there are 2-4 marines.
On September 01 2011 03:29 CharlieBrownsc wrote: This is silly, having the pull all your workers for 30 seconds to make 2 bunkers salvage is still stupid
This is a great tactic. People are still complaining about getting walled in but that's to be expected. This is a great trick that helps and should definitely be made awares to all.
I just tested it a bunch of times on a unit tester map and it works amazingly well. If you execute it correctly, you can take out a finished pylon or supply depot in less than 20 seconds attacking it with 16 workers (fastest was about 16 seconds). So a still building or warping in structure should take even less.
Just take into account that a unit that can not reach a targeted location, will try to get as close as possible to that location. So if you click the wrong minerals patch, I suspect the drones will sometimes not go where you want them to. Also as people already wrote, if you don't have vision of the mineral patch, shift clicking it a few times will give you the time you need to stack all your drones up neatly.
I was kind of wondering how long it would take for people to realize that ground unit stacking, while illegal in SC1, is automatic in SC2, and that includes workers.
I don't see any reason that it shouldn't work. The guy in the video went overboard by about a few drones there, 11-12 drones would've done the necessary ~50-60 damage per hit.
On September 01 2011 03:26 Hrpggtru wrote: People at a lower level of play won't be able to understand that if their opponent puts 3 pylons at the bottom of their ramp that they can do this little trick. They most likey will box all their workers and attack they pylons doing basically nothing.
It's pretty easy to understand, might take a little longer for newbies to master, but I am sure everyone from bronze to masters understands this concept.
Also, being high level doesn't mean you will think of this trick. As you can see, this has eluded pros for a long time, until this one guy found it out.
On September 01 2011 04:48 W2 wrote: It's pretty easy to understand, might take a little longer for newbies to master, but I am sure everyone from bronze to masters understands this concept.
I think the point he was trying to make is that its not very obvious and people not as engaged in the metagame most likely will never think of it.
I don't think that's an excuse though; and it will be seen on the ladder soon enough, so word will spread.
Still I'm torn as to whether or not this is sufficient reason to remove the supply depot at the bottom of tournament maps.
On September 01 2011 04:39 Xarayezona wrote: I was kind of wondering how long it would take for people to realize that ground unit stacking, while illegal in SC1, is automatic in SC2, and that includes workers.
I don't see any reason that it shouldn't work. The guy in the video went overboard by about a few drones there, 11-12 drones would've done the necessary ~50-60 damage per hit.
wow your really smart. way ahead of the curve. tell us, what are you wondering about now that we've caught up on this?
To be fair, keep the supply depot because it's way more fair like that. Because even if you can break a contain, i'm sure it's still efficient for the protoss/ terran who do it, and anyway contain are lame. Don't promote making them come back. I don't want to see the 3 bunker contain of shakuras be able to be use on everymap just because you " can " do this trick with all your worker to "try" to survive. ~~
Nice tutorial! I can be done even faster though, but you need to have good mouse control. The trick is to shift click a mineral patch a few times until all drones are stacked and than quickly click the pylon. In that way all drones will attack the pylon instead of only half the workers. If you have vision of the mineral patches in your natural (which you should usually have with Zerg as your overlord should be there) it's a lot easier, as you don't even have to shift click the mineral patch. In that case clicking it once is enough to stack all drones.
I just tried it with a friend. It really works! I never tried a nice transition out from it, cause you use most of your harvesters, but the protoss definatly gets more behind this way. I think after you destroyed the first pylon and the canon you can just leave 4-5 drones to take care of the rest and start mining again. If you went hatch first (which I almost always do) your creep will just keep him from doing anything else after the initial try.
Oh and I thought it was easier than it looked in that video. I don't wanna sound arrogant but I think I did a better job destroying the pylon than he did in the clip. Just sayin', a few tries of that and all zergs out there will have no more ramp canon rushes GREAT FIND!
oh brother, to me this looks like something blizzard would patch because it's a bug. Surely this is something blizzard never intended and will probably "fix" once they get word of it and include it in 1.4
However, I hope it stays because since there are no supply depots in the ladder, this will become extremely useful and maybe even allow hatch first in ZvP to work!
On September 01 2011 07:19 emc wrote: oh brother, to me this looks like something blizzard would patch because it's a bug. Surely this is something blizzard never intended and will probably "fix" once they get word of it and include it in 1.4
However, I hope it stays because since there are no supply depots in the ladder, this will become extremely useful and maybe even allow hatch first in ZvP to work!
This sounds like it could be used offensively in ZvP/T to knock down a supply depot or pylon that's forming part of their wall-off.
If it's patched, it'll be for that reason.
EDIT: actually - you need to be able to see the mineral patches and the wall without scrolling the screen, right? if so then i don't see it working offensively.
On September 01 2011 07:52 AARONHAND wrote: The thing about the depots though is they also prevent terran from walling off at the bottom of their ramp with just one supply depot and a barracks
not only that, but it also ruins the evo chamber and spine crawler wall off that allows drones/zerglings to get by but not hellions.
On September 01 2011 02:07 Tuthur wrote: I hope this won't be patched, little tricks like this will be what makes the game closer to brood war and increases the general skillcap (this is true for most competitive games where most of the mechanics used by pros are unintended by the developpers, such as bunnyhops, sidejumps in FPS...ect)
They already got rid of fazing, archon toilet, mining faster, and a bunch of other things.
I don't think this will last
Archon toilet was total bullshit. Pros thought it was OP. Mining faster wasn't interesting. Not even pros liked it.
It's not viable. Any good toss will scout you before you lay down a 15 hatch and deny it for quite awhile in which case your minerals keep going up. So you end up putting down a pool before hatch anyhow.
Even if you get a 15 hatch down, they can always cannon you behind your natural mineral line.
Also, since you will be only attacking 1 pylon, they can cut probes and block that pylon with another pylon and cannon and cannon #1 will already be up. So, you just pulled like 10 drones for nothing for a long time.
Needs to be fixed. Zerg is OP with Hatch first =) True statement.
On a realistic note, this only works on "walled off" cannon rush. However, the point of some cannon rushes is to punish Hatch first instead of pool first. Just don't wall to do a proper Zerg punish.
Its probably going to be fixed and might cause Blizzard to change the way worker pathing works in a negative way. Anyways wouldn't it make early pools w/ workers pretty op vs wall-in? I dunno just seems really easily abusable but people have been finding new ways to abuse worker pathing forever.
If you click on the minerals, then shift-click once again on the minerals, the drones will perfectly stack without splattering again and you can easily attack with all at once.
The problem is, when the protoss sees you attacking one pylon, he can quickly start to wall off behind that pylon again, thus nullifying your effort :/
Two bunker walls are scarier than three pylon walls, especially given that 2 rax bunker rushes put the terran significantly less behind than multi-pylon walls put protoss behind, and are less costly for the same effect and more effective for the same cost, with much greater pullout/recovery potential given bunker salvage and marines being capable of moving (unlike cannons). The DPS of 2 bunkers loaded with 8 marines total (600 minerals) is 56, while the DPS of 2 cannons behind a 3 pylon wall (also 600 minerals) is 32. As well, it's more survivable because SCVs can repair bunkers behind the safety of the wall. Also, the marines can poke up the ramp for greater range, annoyance/harassment, and ability to take out burrowing spines while still retreating to the bunkers when a threat appears.
On September 01 2011 07:52 AARONHAND wrote: The thing about the depots though is they also prevent terran from walling off at the bottom of their ramp with just one supply depot and a barracks
not only that, but it also ruins the evo chamber and spine crawler wall off that allows drones/zerglings to get by but not hellions.
irrelevant. by the time evo/spine wall off is built, you've destroyed the neutral depot with any attack-capable force (even as small as one zergling).
On September 01 2011 11:45 dbddbddb wrote: no protoss ever places 3 pylons at the bottom of the ramp ever since the double pylon was removed.
Actually this is false, when a protoss forge fe against a hatch first zerg, the protoss will usually opt for cannon harass, and a wall off between main and natural with 3 pylons gives protoss a huge advantage. I'm not going to lie this sucks for protoss, since they lose out a lot of harassment capabilities now. Nobody bash me though because I don't actually play protoss =P
This is incredible. Really like to see that creative breakthroughs are coming through like this. Leaves some hope for the nostalgic BW pro scene enthusiasts.
This seems like a glitch/abuse more than a "strategy" and it will likely get patched out before long. This opens up too many options for (as mentioned) abuse of early pushes that pull workers.
Neutral pylon is still a better option because it just takes away the option of the pylon wall and forces players to play fair.
WOAH KOREANS I AM AMAZED AT THE HOW THEY TURN OUT GAME CHANGING TACTICS. No seriously...this is amazing. I don't even care that it helps zerg. This technique could be used to help defend a behind the mineral line cannon rush (maybe, if you can stack the probes adjacent to the pylon) and below the ramp wall into cannon rush in pvp (both which already are TECHINALLY defendable). It won't do anything against a below the cliff "wall your cannon in" cannon rush because the minerals aren't there.
I'm not sure but isn't the neutral supply depot also here to prevent players from walling-off themselves too fast ? (i.e. one depot, one barrack for a terran, which is very fast to build and will nearly always prevent any kind of early scouting on a four-player map)
This is old and was posted in the strategy forums many times, stop saying things like "x invented y", thats just not true and it gives people credits they don't deserve.
Also: This has a pretty simple answer, at least if the zerg went hatch first: chronoboost 2 zealots quickly off one gate if you see that he is doing that kinda stuff. the minerals the zerg lost by killing the pylon will prevent him from making too much stuff, and the zealots will have an easy day with a maximum of 8 zerglings.
However, I still think that these neutral buildings are unnecessary. The best answer to this is just paying attention to the probe.
I wouldn't say its no longer a necessity. Its a cool trick and all, but its still super gay/annoying as f*ck for players to deal with wall-ins. Also, the mining-time loss alone could make blocks still worthwhile.
On September 01 2011 20:20 bokchoi wrote: I wouldn't say its no longer a necessity. Its a cool trick and all, but its still super gay/annoying as f*ck for players to deal with wall-ins. Also, the mining-time loss alone could make blocks still worthwhile.
The point is, according to Milkyway, If Zerg pulls this trick, you should thank the protoss because its a free win for zerg.
On August 31 2011 23:59 Barrin wrote: I want to keep this thread here as I feel it is most important that the mapmakers themselves are aware of this (edit: hmm, maybe not just mapmakers but definitely mapmakers!). Go ahead and make another thread in general about it, I guess.
Personally, I won't be doing the neutral supply depot thing anymore.
I'm sorry but i have no idea how the protoss and and Terran are rejoicing about a possible removal or the thought of removing the Supply depot at the ramp.
This still is really annoying to deal with and doesn't work in all situations...
Lets not make this issue (that blizzard will possibly likely fix) an excuse to remove the neutral supply depot at ramps altogether..
I know Terran and protoss salivate at the thought of Cheesing people with bunker pylon rushes at the ramp..
I personally am angry that people are trying to make this out to be an excuse to remove the neutral supply depot..
I can see some Terran And Protoss trying to use this as an excuse to abuse the Ramps again..
This shouldn't really be a discussion about removing the neutral supply depot from all new custom maps and/or current ones.
Until we figure out what blizzards going to do about this purported trick/cheat in the game..
But it doesn't work all the time when you're in certain positions on the Map.
So in reality the Depots should be staying in all Custom-Maps until we figure what Blizzards going to do about this.
On September 01 2011 08:18 neptunesak wrote: It's not viable. Any good toss will scout you before you lay down a 15 hatch and deny it for quite awhile in which case your minerals keep going up. So you end up putting down a pool before hatch anyhow.
Even if you get a 15 hatch down, they can always cannon you behind your natural mineral line.
Also, since you will be only attacking 1 pylon, they can cut probes and block that pylon with another pylon and cannon and cannon #1 will already be up. So, you just pulled like 10 drones for nothing for a long time.
Neat trick but pointless.
Absolutely not true. Zergs can get a 15hatch down very easily on many maps without it being blocked. It's just really risky because of cannons.
On September 01 2011 20:20 bokchoi wrote: I wouldn't say its no longer a necessity. Its a cool trick and all, but its still super gay/annoying as f*ck for players to deal with wall-ins. Also, the mining-time loss alone could make blocks still worthwhile.
The point is, according to Milkyway, If Zerg pulls this trick, you should thank the protoss because its a free win for zerg.
Playing with it for a while last night, I couldn't take advantage of this in a useful way unfortunately.
Pulling 15 drones, I can't kill the pylon faster than 20 seconds, which means that when my spawning pool finishes, I can't make zerglings and a well-built continuation wall still turns this into a game-ending advantage for protoss.
I think it's actually better to just continue on with older methods and continue mining.
It's a neat trick, but far too costly to be useful in your average game.
mmmm not sure if it was brought to attention, but i thought the neutral depot was put down to prevent the depot raks wallin that denys the worker scout with a super high chance on 4 player maps even if its an early scout. I mean i wouldn't mind, i love the lower wallin, since its great for fast expanding. (to bad pros in korea used that to deny scouting the fe or a 2 racks, and then this mean depot was there =( in the gsl)
But its quiet funny to kill that depot and replace it and when they think there is an opening wtf how could that lift xD.
The pylon wallin is pretty bad anyway. Unless they can reach your main mineral line with canons that way hehe. Atleast i don't lose alot mining time that way >.> just need to build a few more drones.
why do you keep clicking minerals out of vision? just makes it harder..they dont stay stacked and spread out so most of his workers arent even attacking
How does this trick ever solve the problem of ramps being walled off too easily??
The cannon rush in PvZ was not the only problem with ramps being walled off so easily. Terran can also wall their ramp with 1 rax and 1 depot making it virtually impossible to scout them, which can lead to massive marine all-ins etc. Temporary bunker blocks are also too easy if the ramp is not easy to block.
ALso the socalled 'fix' to the problem is a glitch. This makes it 1. very unfriendly for non-pro's and 2. possible it will get patched out. This stacked worker attacking could also be used for more abusive aggresive options which might turn out to be a problem down the line. For example you can break a wall-in against a 6-pool faster with this trick if you bring drones along etc.
Are you serious ? You can easily stop 3 pylon cannon contain with this...
No... you can't...
You can turn a 3 pylon wall into a 5 pylon wall and still not kill the cannon before it finishes and leave yourself with no money left over to make zerglings.
The only requirement from Protoss is an attentive probe.
Milkyway posted a screenshot. He says it take roughly 20 seconds in game time. You can also break the middle pylon, which will force protoss to build 3 extra plyons to re-wall.
Are you serious ? You can easily stop 3 pylon cannon contain with this...
No... you can't...
You can turn a 3 pylon wall into a 5 pylon wall and still not kill the cannon before it finishes and leave yourself with no money left over to make zerglings.
The only requirement from Protoss is an attentive probe.
Its not easy to rewall 3pylon block. After your first pylon dies you need 3 pylons to wall if off again, but at that time your hatchery is probably already finished so protoss cant even build anything.
On September 01 2011 00:26 Yekke wrote: You can shift click the mineral patch 3-4 times, makes it much easier.
I just tried this in a custom and it works wonders. Click a mineral patch, shift click it two more times, then right click the pylon. Using this method I was able to break the contain 3x faster than a simple right click on the pylon.
Are you serious ? You can easily stop 3 pylon cannon contain with this...
No... you can't...
You can turn a 3 pylon wall into a 5 pylon wall and still not kill the cannon before it finishes and leave yourself with no money left over to make zerglings.
The only requirement from Protoss is an attentive probe.
Its not easy to rewall 3pylon block. After your first pylon dies you need 3 pylons to wall if off again, but at that time your hatchery is probably already finished so protoss cant even build anything.
assuming you put your cannon in a non-terrible place, it just joins the wall.
Anyone curious should note that in destiny's execution of it, he killed the first pylon in 10-15 seconds and the backup pylon in another 5~ seconds. He also caught it after the pylons already finished.
Still not confident that this will affect 2 rax double bunker walling very well, but at least people won't have as much trouble with these walls against protoss.
On September 02 2011 17:54 Larsin wrote: Did anyone send this to Idra yet? i would love a pylon wall by mc again get broken by this.
btw bad timing to make this public, patch incoming soon. easy to fix now
I don't think they will "fix it". hatch first isn't broken vs P in the first place, it was just unplayable until now... also other forms of canonrushes are still viable vs hatch first
about the neutral depots: they are not only to prevent those rushes, but also to prevent terrans from walling ramps on the bottome AND walling zerg ramps...
Wow Nice way to show this isn't actually how it works for Zergs remember in the patch how they are buffing the Zerg Drone Worker attack to hit more often like the Scv and probes.
You are showing a bad example of how this actually works. The Drone Attacks don't always hit their mark unlike the Probes/Scv's Attacks.
We will have to see how the drone attack improves in patch 1.4 but showing the probes breaking a wall is a bad example... Since protoss getting walled in really doesn't happen alot.
While i appreciate the effectiveness of this I would have to mention that This still disadvantages a race and that neutral supply depots may still be needed.
On September 02 2011 21:30 TheLOLas wrote: While i appreciate the effectiveness of this I would have to mention that This still disadvantages a race and that neutral supply depots may still be needed.
Exactly i despise that that all the Protoss and Terran are coming in here harping that this means we can remove the Neutral Supply Depot from all maps now.
On September 02 2011 17:54 Larsin wrote: Did anyone send this to Idra yet? i would love a pylon wall by mc again get broken by this.
btw bad timing to make this public, patch incoming soon. easy to fix now
I don't think they will "fix it". hatch first isn't broken vs P in the first place, it was just unplayable until now... also other forms of canonrushes are still viable vs hatch first
about the neutral depots: they are not only to prevent those rushes, but also to prevent terrans from walling ramps on the bottome AND walling zerg ramps...
Neutral depots were addded to stop lame pylon and bunker blocks that basically won the game when they got up. With this technique those cheeses will be obsolete. Terran being able to quickly wall below their ramp was a luxury that was forfeited by tournaments because fixing the insta-lame-loss was more important. It was an inevitability that came with fixing the problem, not a feature of neutral supply depots.
Now the problem has been solved naturally, there's no more reason to maintain ugly neutral structures. They were put in to prevent OP antic-climactic cheese, not to give Zerg a scouting buff.
I thought it was to stop bunker rushes, which still has the marine to kill a worker or two while you do this. Unless terran has brought all their scvs, they should still come out ahead.
Protoss is fine though because its 3 pylons, and they cant kill any workers because the canon is still building.
On September 02 2011 17:54 Larsin wrote: Did anyone send this to Idra yet? i would love a pylon wall by mc again get broken by this.
btw bad timing to make this public, patch incoming soon. easy to fix now
I don't think they will "fix it". hatch first isn't broken vs P in the first place, it was just unplayable until now... also other forms of canonrushes are still viable vs hatch first
about the neutral depots: they are not only to prevent those rushes, but also to prevent terrans from walling ramps on the bottom AND walling zerg ramps...
Neutral depots were addded to stop lame pylon and bunker blocks that basically won the game when they got up. With this technique those cheeses will be obsolete. Terran being able to quickly wall below their ramp was a luxury that was forfeited by tournaments because fixing the insta-lame-loss was more important. It was an inevitability that came with fixing the problem, not a feature of neutral supply depots.
Now the problem has been solved naturally, there's no more reason to maintain ugly neutral structures. They were put in to prevent OP antic-climactic cheese, not to give Zerg a scouting buff.
Neutral supply depots prevent bunker,pylon blocks as well as terran lowground walls. If they are not intended that way, they are badly designed, because the editor would surely give you the options to make them only prevent walling enemy base, not your own.
Also I disagree that "ugly neutral structures" should be removed if not needed. Pretty much every map would be playable without XNWT (a neutral structure btw), but they simply add extra gameplay features.
On September 02 2011 23:17 Sadistx wrote: People find 15 scv stacking trick for 2 rax marine/scv allin - "god this is awful, hope it gets Nerfed, Patched, Removed, Trololo!!!"
People find 15 drone stacking trick - " this is amazing, hope it never gets patched! Much needed zerg buff! Awesome find!!"
It's amazing really.
You're staying purposefully oblivious to the fact that the "this is amazing" part comes from the fact that zergs now have a chance to live past the 5 minute mark.
You're trying to compare it to a bullshit strat that ends games with minimal risk.
Though as much as love the discovery of this trick, i still don't see a point removing neutral structure at the bottom, it just makes zerg scouting even harder.
And i am sure Terrans don't want to hear more zerg QQs, we all don't.
IMO, z v p metagame will always be first due to the possibility of cannoning behind the mineral line, you will not kill that in time with drones.
On September 03 2011 03:07 TolEranceNA wrote: Though as much as love the discovery of this trick, i still don't see a point removing neutral structure at the bottom, it just makes zerg scouting even harder.
And i am sure Terrans don't want to hear more zerg QQs, we all don't.
IMO, z v p metagame will always be first due to the possibility of cannoning behind the mineral line, you will not kill that in time with drones.
well, if you use that trick perfectly, you might be able to kill canons behind mineral lines... you could just go next to the canon, clickspam the next mineral patch until workers are stacked and then attack, clickspam, attack... dont know, would have to be tested if it works and is efficient in terms of mining...
This is a cool trick that Zergs should learn to help practice on the ladder, but I really don't see any reason to remove the neutral depot. It stops stupid cheeses, just let it stay and be there.
It's certainly a nice find, but saying that Protoss has 0% chance to win afterwards is absolutely exagerated. The Zerg mining time lost pretty well makes up for the pylons and cancelled cannons.
Removing the depot, would allow for every player to start the wall ins again. If I need to pull all of my drones, and lose god knows how many minerals during the process, that doesn't seem even remotely close to fair. How far ahead do you think you'd be, by the time I broke out?
On September 03 2011 03:07 TolEranceNA wrote: Though as much as love the discovery of this trick, i still don't see a point removing neutral structure at the bottom, it just makes zerg scouting even harder.
And i am sure Terrans don't want to hear more zerg QQs, we all don't.
IMO, z v p metagame will always be first due to the possibility of cannoning behind the mineral line, you will not kill that in time with drones.
If you break the wall-in, expand somewhere else, especially against P. I don't know about T.
Wow at the people saying "this is inefficient", are you for real? Listen, if the terran or protoss has 3 near-completed pylons or 2 bunkers down at your ramp, you're pretty much done for as he will kill your expansion with cannons/marines and there's nothing you can do about it. EXCEPT for this, which will leave you even OR EVEN AHEAD of your opponent.
This is huge against those attacks if you happen to be caught with your pants down in a ladder game, to the point where those attacks simply will become irrelevant as zergs learn to use this tactic because, at best, they'll leave the opponent even IF you do a hatch first and IF you don't properly block your ramp. This basically makes them useless if it becomes common knowledge outside of games against noobs.
I can very well see this tactic reduce the efficiency of cannon rushes in PvP too, as probes can stack up against pylons behind the mineral line and kill them before the cannon finishes.
On September 03 2011 06:23 BadgerBadger8264 wrote: Wow at the people saying "this is inefficient", are you for real? Listen, if the terran or protoss has 3 near-completed pylons or 2 bunkers down at your ramp, you're pretty much done for as he will kill your expansion with cannons/marines and there's nothing you can do about it. EXCEPT for this, which will leave you even OR EVEN AHEAD of your opponent.
Na, people are not saying it is inefficient. But when you go 14-15hatch vs Protoss and then pull 15drones and not mine with them for 30sec, you will not mine (15*~40min/min) ~300minerals. P won't will lose 300minerals worth of pylons. P will lose time on his nexus, you will lose time on (your pool) and a lot of larva (due to not building stuff from your base). In my eyes you come out even after this for the risk of losing, if he does a better canonrush (like under Tal'darim ledge 1canon to protect high ground canons...), with the only difference being that you did a hatchfirst instead of a poolfirst opening, which is not the same, but only slightly better economical, but Protoss is allowed to cut canons too, because there can't be a 1base roach/speedling allin.
But I guess, the only way to find out how viable hatch first is, is to test it with this trick numerous times...
Also in ZvT you always have to expect bunkers and in PvZ it doesn't kill you in the first place to stay 1base slightly longer, because they dont have mules and have to prepare for a roach allin (which is not really viable vs terran)
Na, people are not saying it is inefficient. But when you go 14-15hatch vs Protoss and then pull 15drones and not mine with them for 30sec, you will not mine (15*~40min/min) ~300minerals. P won't will lose 300minerals worth of pylons.
I think you're grossly underestimating what's going on, instead of a 14/14 pool/gas, you can now toss down a 13-16 hatch safely (big economic increase), he'll also delay his nexus REALLY, REALLY long, to the point where your hatchery is finished and you have 16 drones ready to mine while he has 16 probes on one base with no tech but a forge. In the minerals you lose you're also not counting the cancelled cannons that cost a bit of money (if he throws down 3 cannons that's 120 minerals). It's hard to see you coming out of this as even when you use this technique like Destiny does (compared to previous 14/14 builds with a delayed hatch). You won't lose much time on your larva, if it takes you a minute to kill off the contain and you used all your larva you will lose 1-2 larva tops from your main, that's the equivalent of cutting 2 workers from your build, hardly a loss.
In my eyes you come out even after this for the risk of losing, if he does a better canonrush (like under Tal'darim ledge 1canon to protect high ground canons...)
True, I still won't open hatch first on Tal'Darim, but you can do it safely on most other maps using this technique, granted you put a drone on the probe to prevent wall-ins behind minerals.
On September 03 2011 06:23 BadgerBadger8264 wrote: Wow at the people saying "this is inefficient", are you for real? Listen, if the terran or protoss has 3 near-completed pylons or 2 bunkers down at your ramp, you're pretty much done for as he will kill your expansion with cannons/marines and there's nothing you can do about it. EXCEPT for this, which will leave you even OR EVEN AHEAD of your opponent.
Na, people are not saying it is inefficient. But when you go 14-15hatch vs Protoss and then pull 15drones and not mine with them for 30sec, you will not mine (15*~40min/min) ~300minerals. P won't will lose 300minerals worth of pylons.
But if you break the wall-in, you can get to 24+ workers faster than he can, especially with queen.
True, there is a window, but you will close the gap way before any kind of attack.
I give it till the next patch...seriously this is a cool thing! It's like the drone drill, blizzard are seriously missing the point if they patch that out ^_^ it's a super cool trick to get people to play a "real" style. Now i'm just waiting for limited size control groups to force better-ness into the world
On September 03 2011 08:23 ManusCelerDei wrote: I give it till the next patch...seriously this is a cool thing! It's like the drone drill, blizzard are seriously missing the point if they patch that out ^_^ it's a super cool trick to get people to play a "real" style. Now i'm just waiting for limited size control groups to force better-ness into the world
Why not just single unit control? Zoom in so you can only see 1unit at a time and blizzard please stop that hotkey bullshit! Wouldn't this be waaaaaaaaaaaaay funnier?
On September 03 2011 03:36 The Final Boss wrote: This is a cool trick that Zergs should learn to help practice on the ladder, but I really don't see any reason to remove the neutral depot. It stops stupid cheeses, just let it stay and be there.
This^
Stop trying to get the neutral Supply depot removed u guys just want to be able to cheese or all in etc...
i too hope the Neutral supply depot stays there. Just let it be. This Tactic does not make the Neutral Supply Depot Redundant
For some reason this doesn't seem to work on Shattered Temple. I wasted alot of mining time on this trick because they wouldn't stack.
After that game i tried it vs a Very Easy AI so i had plenty time to try and stack my drones like i succefully did on Xelnaga before. But on Shattered Temple the drones didn't stack but ran up the ramp.
The guides said "make sure to try it on different maps and different starting positions" and sadly, this does not work in all of them.
I tried this in both western positions on Abyssal Caverns, and in both cases the drones do not stack up at the point of the pylons. They have a position closer to the mineral patches in the base. I even tried the 3rds but then they stack up differently too. I don't think there is much that can be done except prevent the 3 pylons from going up. Perhaps there are little enough maps to just thumbsdown them but it would suck to base the veto preference based on one (very cool) trick's viability.
Perhaps we should make a list of working/not working positions on maps and see how much the trick gets is. If someone compiled this list I would be more than happy to see it.
I just lost a game on Abyssal Caverns becuse i didnt know this trick dont work on that map. Really got me mad, i hate this game ! i hate this game i ! hate this game ! i hate this game !
Yes, that mineral trick still works. It works on all the maps, but depending on your spawning location you'll have to click either the closest mineral patch at your natural or the one that is the most far away (just try it out, I can't tell you more about this) or your workers will walk up your ramp again and look at the minerals from a distance. Another point is that you don't have to spam click the mineral patches if you don't have vision of them and then quickly Attack-move/right click on the building. You can also shift-click on the mineral patch several times and then attack-move/right click. That way, your workers will stay stacked for a longer period of time, which gives a little more time to low APM players to execute this strategy.
Hey, I know it's old post but today I lost to 3 pylon block on Ohana and I wonder if it still works. I also have a question: I am low APM player so should I shift click many times mineral patch and then attack-move many times the pylon? Is it how it works? Thx.
EPT
. this will kill WBC so much lol.
