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l3lackjax
Canada24 Posts
I ask because I myself am a mapper and I keep hearing people complain about imbalances in Blizzard's melee maps (Scrap Station, Kulas). Perhaps if you guys could provide information as to what you would like to see in a melee map we could build better ones for you guys to pwn on in the future. I realize that me =/= Blizzard but who knows maybe they might read this one day and learn from it. ~ Thanks :D | ||
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iGrok
United States5142 Posts
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Barrin
United States5002 Posts
*Clears throat* I like to see symmetry. Every inch matters, but in some cases it's actually rather ambiguous which side a small little indent here or a little extra bulge there on a cliff really favors. I am actually going to make an entire thread to this type of thing though. Symmetry includes both the pathing mesh, placement grid, and map bounds. + Show Spoiler + The only time it's okay to deviate a little from intentional symmetry is when you're making terran wall-offs (outside the main) equal on all positions with consideration to their addons. I haven't actually figured out how to do to this yet but something tells me it's possible. I like to see just the right amount of features with high spectator value. I like to see interesting creativity without being too bold (going overboard). This includes an understanding of strategical possibilities with keen insight into both current and future metagaming. This also includes a thorough understanding of both micro potential of each unit and macro potential of each race. I like to see ideal places to defend certain areas (main&third in particular) that cover MOST attack paths, but with a decent attack path that can circumvent the ideal defense position with special attention to reaction time scouting potential and movement distance. I like to see valuable positions that once taken spread your bases and thus army relatively thin, but not too thin. In other words, moving to defend these valuable positions should require you to move portions of your army outside of an ideal comfort zone defending initial areas. I like to see a mix of open and closed areas with special attention to flanking, force field use, concaves (and spread potential), defendable chokes, and surface area reduction. All of this has the potential to be very good or very useless without being placed in the right areas or in the right way. Special attention must be given to precise sizes of everything involved... every tile matters. I like to see a reasonable (not overpowered) way to set up a contain. I like to see attack alternate routes that are not covered completely by watch towers. + Show Spoiler + Part of what I mean by this is that it's a good thing if a watch tower peeks slightly over it's "designated" area, just so it has the potential to see things that the enemy might not think it will see with careless movement. I like to see clever and plenty of LoS Blocker usage. I like to see creative destructible rock usage. I do not like to see too many destructible rocks. I like to see dead space and cliffs used generously to promote the use of air units. I like to see special attention to both rush distances and distance from every base to every other base with consideration to how each type of unit (ground / cliffwalker / air) can traverse that distance. I like to see reasonable potential for both short games and longer games on most maps. I like to see balance, but not an excruciating amount of balance. 55% winrate for a certain matchup on a certain map is extremely reasonable, especially in the context of a map pool. I like to see viable strategies for all races in all matchups on all maps. I like to see very beautiful maps with distinct themes and extreme attention to detail. I also like to see certain areas contrast well with certain other areas. I like to see all of this, BUT implemented in such a way that it harbors FUN for all parties involved. Anyways I like to see a lot of things (and I might add in more later), but what I really like to see is a tremendous amount of thought put into a single map. + Show Spoiler + (and that doesn't mean it has to be some 256x256 extremely complicated map) - Barrin | ||
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
As for my personal response, I can't improve on Barrin's exhaustive list . I'll edit with anything I think of, but I have nothing to add or subtract at the moment. Lol. | ||
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Madsquare
Germany157 Posts
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MAPPoVe
86 Posts
Every open space area should be there for a reason worth fighting for. With the enhanced pathing, flancking routes can be very narrow now. One should waste space as less as possible, making it important to combat for different key areas. | ||
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Barrin
United States5002 Posts
One should waste space as less as possible, making it important to combat for different key areas. Something like that was actually going to be the next thing that I mentioned. I do not like to see extraneous areas. While every tile does indeed matter and a smaller version of an extraneous map will never be the same... In your maps you should get to the point. + Show Spoiler + But as I argued in another thread that's not really worth linking to, every piece of terrain has the potential to do something. Just make sure that it actually fits in to the overall idea of your map. | ||
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PlaGuE_R
France1151 Posts
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Steezysn0brdr
United States16 Posts
On December 04 2010 13:48 Barrin wrote: I like to see clever and plenty of LoS Blocker usage. I like to see creative destructible rock usage. I do not like to see too many destructible rocks. I like to see dead space and cliffs used generously to promote the use of air units. I like to see special attention to both rush distances and distance from every base to every other base with consideration to how each type of unit (ground / cliffwalker / air) can traverse that distance. I like to see reasonable potential for both short games and longer games on most maps. I like to see balance, but not an excruciating amount of balance. 55% winrate for a certain matchup on a certain map is extremely reasonable, especially in the context of a map pool. I like to see viable strategies for all races in all matchups on all maps. I like to see very beautiful maps with distinct themes and extreme attention to detail. I also like to see certain areas contrast well with certain other areas. I like to see all of this, BUT implemented in such a way that it harbors FUN for all parties involved. Anyways I like to see a lot of things (and I might add in more later), but what I really like to see is a tremendous amount of thought put into a single map. + Show Spoiler + (and that doesn't mean it has to be some 256x256 extremely complicated map) - Barrin This ^ Adding areas of high spectator value but at the same time maintaining balance is also what I appreciate from the map maker when playing custom-mades. I'd say the three most important things to consider (to sum up Barrin's post) is: -Multiple paths, areas to flank, alternate routes. -Well placed XnT's and LOS blockers. -Plenty of dead space around the map where air units can fly and room behind the minerals (crowded and land blocked minerals in your main are unappealing). There needs to be room for units to move and react behind the mineral lines, be they attacking, or defending. Most of the time+ Show Spoiler + As Barrin had already mentioned! (Not referring to bling drops as every good player should have that in their arsenal already.) | ||
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Brother Roga
Finland38 Posts
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Whiplash
United States2927 Posts
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On December 05 2010 00:51 Madsquare wrote: "If i had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses." - Henry Ford while this is true, its not an entirely applicable statement; this would apply to the design of the first map compared to whatever was before it | ||
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BuuGhost
Netherlands340 Posts
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Barrin
United States5002 Posts
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TSM
Great Britain584 Posts
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SnuggleZhenya
596 Posts
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G_Wen
Canada525 Posts
Elegance. The map needs to be simple. Not dull but it needs to have a neatness that can be picked up quickly. If the map is complicated it needs to come naturally otherwise it will be too messy to play on. | ||
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BoomStevo
United States332 Posts
On December 07 2010 08:27 G_Wen wrote: While Barrin covers nearly all the bases I think there is one thing that need to be added before any map is complete. Elegance. The map needs to be simple. Not dull but it needs to have a neatness that can be picked up quickly. If the map is complicated it needs to come naturally otherwise it will be too messy to play on. Each aspect and feature of a map having a purpose and working harmoniously together to provide a unique experience. Elegance. That words sums up my feelings so well. I agree and thanks G_Wen. | ||
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
On December 07 2010 08:41 BoomStevo wrote: Each aspect and feature of a map having a purpose and working harmoniously together to provide a unique experience. Elegance. That words sums up my feelings so well. I agree and thanks G_Wen. I would consider this a cardinal rule of design, in the most general sense. It should be ever-present in your mind when considering your options, and taking stock of what you have and where you're headed. As an aside, basically every successful map has that "oh I get it" moment of comprehension almost at first glance. But most of the best maps have layers of "oh I get it" that don't reveal themselves immediately. I don't think it's a requirement, but I think it's a hallmark of superlative work that you create this layered depth. | ||
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Antares777
United States1971 Posts
Everybody likes aesthetics. I'm not going to lie. Gameplay, while it is the most important out of everything for your map, no one will care if it has bad aesthetics. Your map will be buried like a lot of other ones. I suck at textures and aesthetics, so I'm not the person to talk to about these... Symmetry. This goes with gameplay a lot. Your map needs to be symmetrical, whether it is inverse, converse, or rotational, it needs symmetry. On four player maps, be careful using rotational symmetry, because it can give the player on one side of the map an advantage in where they spawn, like on Factory, by Archi. This would make a great inverse symmetrical two player map, but not a good four player map. Attack paths are extremely important. You need to have multiple attack paths, but not too many. A good example of excellent use of multiple attack paths would be the map Erebus by BoomStevo. This map allows multiple attack paths to all of the expansions beyond the natural, and allows great map flow from hi to low and vice versa. That is also important in making sure that Terran is not overpowered (Siege Tanks...) by being able to lockdown the enemy player at a certain spot by having a high ground advantage. To add onto this, the fastest way to get from main to main (or nat to nat) should also be the most dangerous path and other the least amount of expansions. Sometimes that expansion rule can be bent, like with maps that have the high yield expansions in the center of the map, which makes them very hard to control/defend. The first map that I thought of was prodiG's Enigma, but there are plenty of maps that do this. Expansions beyond the natural should be out of the way for both you and your enemy, unless they are islands or high yield bases. Islands should be placed in such a position that building a CC and flying it there from your main or natural would be a bad idea because it crosses over a lot of land and is far away. A lot of Konicki's maps, such as Lebasse Pass, Sungsu Crossing, and Sanshorn Mists have island expansions that are out of the way. Lebasse Pass would be the best example of this. Islands are not necessary, but if you are going to have them, do it right. You can place two islands, one for each player and have them rather far away, or place one island, like on Konicki's Orbital Divide, and on Scrap Station, equidistant from each base. Standard high yield expansions consist of 6 high yield mineral patches and two vespene geysers (not sure if the standard expansion has high yield gas, your choice I guess). High yield expansions are usually covered by destructible rocks, like on Blistering Sands and Kulas Ravine. This is so that players cannot fast expand to these locations and get away with it. High yield locations that are not covered with DRs should be extremely hard to defend, and should be noticeable by either a Xel'naga Watchtower or a frequently travelled position on the map. High yield locations should be near frequently travelled locations on the map, such as directly in between you and your enemy, and should be in vulnerable locations. They can be on frequently travelled locations, or just force players to move slightly out of their way, but again, this can be bent and modified depending on how the map flows. NEVER put a high yield expansion on an island, this favors Terran a lot because of MULE mechanics and their flying buildings. You don't really want to place DRs on islands unless you really have to; keeping out of early game reach is better than doing that. XWTs should be placed in frequently travelled locations or desirable locations. They should reveal attack paths. Whether or not it should reveal the main attack path or a side one again depends on the map. Emerald Plateau by Madsquare has XWTs that overlook an alternative path to your enemy, and reveal not so much about the middle. Blistering Sands has XWTs that reveal the entrance to the player's naturals, the middle path, and the side path, and are extremely important to hold on that map. Island XWT placement is generally a bad idea because it gives Terran easy access to them, and they already have Sensor Towers. Backdoor entrances are okay to have for naturals, and should have a DR. Backdoors are only okay for main bases if the time to travel from the natural choke to the backdoor is a good amount larger than the time it takes to travel from defending the natural choke to defending the backdoor. These backdoors must have a DR placed. Line of sight blockers should be placed in locations that they would be needed in. Most people would like creative placement of these for both aesthetic value and gameplay value. LoSBs can be placed near choke points, and by destructible rocks (example: Blistering Sands; Metalopolis, even though it doesn't have a backdoor it has LoSBs for a drop zone). Original ideas are both good and bad. As SnuggleZhenya said, Xel'naga Caverns is a good map and it is pretty straight forward; no original ideas. Scrap Station is terrible because it was too original, but maps like Match Point and Blue Storm (BW maps, I'll add links to remakes tomorrow) because they are 100% original and good because of it. I know they are not very good examples because they were made for BW, but they are examples nonetheless. Room behind minerals on all bases where players can build stuff, where air harassment can take place, and where early game harassment can take place. I recommend two to three blocks of buildable room. Maps should have equal potential in each stage of the game (dammit, I lost the game). Blistering Sands is notoriously known for one-base builds because it is very potent then, but not so much later on. Your map should be equally opportunistic for early game and late game. It's okay to make maps that are early game oriented and maps that are late game oriented, but a middle groud is usually the best. Choke points are important to have on a map, but don't overdo it. There needs to be open areas for flanking (mainly for Zerg) and chokes for defending certain areas. Your map needs orientation, which isn't hard to achieve. The map needs to be understandable and comprehendible. You don't really have to worry about this point as much because it is very easy to accomplish. Oh yeah, welcome to the community! I'll be looking forward to see your first map!  | ||
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