Well, seeing as the point of that post was to argue that missiles are better than the standard attack, I don't really see anything constructive in what you said, baconbits. The standard attack upgrades cost the same and target things that get in the way of killing enemy capitol ships. Its common knowledge that the range upgrade doesn't affect the leviathan's tentacles, and the fact was even posted earlier in this thread (I think by you?).
Anyways, a moment of sleep deprived clarity came over me, and I decided to run both cost to damage effectiveness: The missiles are a bit challenging since there are two modifiers. Using the build order I posted, the first +missile gives +50damage, so it grants +12.5dps. The first 4 +dmg upgrades grant +30damage, giving you +7.5dps each. The second +missile gives +70damage, which is +17.5dps. The next 6 +dmg give +8.75dps each. 3rd +missile gives 100dmg, meaning +25dps. Each subsequent +dmg grants 10dps, and that last missile is worth 47.5dps. All together, that is 337.5dps; at about 6.77 minerals per 1dps. Fortunately, games don't usually last that long, and generally end between attack upgrade 12 and 16. So the cost per 1dps at +dmg of 12 is 5.23 minerals. The cost slowly increases over time (from 12-19, it rises about 1.54 minerals per 1dps)
Each laser upgrade gives (0.24*10^2=3*10^2)/24=12.5dps. Which is insane, when you compare it to what is above. Unfortunately, its low damage, high rate of fire. Ships have a base armor of 3, meaning the base damage is only really 7, at 29.17dps. Each upgrade to its damage is directly countered by an upgrade to enemy armor at the same price- however your one ship busting out 20 laser upgrades will cost the enemies a fortune to counter you, leaving your team free to go for stats that build stronger in the end.
It should also be noted that 9 levels into 'lasers', you surpass missiles for dps by 1.67dps IF the opponent doesn't purchase any armor. But even 600 minerals into lasers- at 625 minerals into missiles you're only 4.17dps behind, and are able to ignore the majority of your opponents' armor.
::NOTE:: I would love if somebody else would check my math. Message me if you're interested in breaking the game apart some more
On December 09 2010 04:49 flyinfart wrote: Well, seeing as the point of that post was to argue that missiles are better than the standard attack, I don't really see anything constructive in what you said, baconbits. The standard attack upgrades cost the same and target things that get in the way of killing enemy capitol ships. Its common knowledge that the range upgrade doesn't affect the leviathan's tentacles, and the fact was even posted earlier in this thread (I think by you?).
Anyways, a moment of sleep deprived clarity came over me, and I decided to run both cost to damage effectiveness: The missiles are a bit challenging since there are two modifiers. Using the build order I posted, the first +missile gives +50damage, so it grants +12.5dps. The first 4 +dmg upgrades grant +30damage, giving you +7.5dps each. The second +missile gives +70damage, which is +17.5dps. The next 6 +dmg give +8.75dps each. 3rd +missile gives 100dmg, meaning +25dps. Each subsequent +dmg grants 10dps, and that last missile is worth 47.5dps. All together, that is 337.5dps; at about 6.77 minerals per 1dps. Fortunately, games don't usually last that long, and generally end between attack upgrade 12 and 16. So the cost per 1dps at +dmg of 12 is 5.23 minerals. The cost slowly increases over time (from 12-19, it rises about 1.54 minerals per 1dps)
Each laser upgrade gives (0.24*10^2=3*10^2)/24=12.5dps. Which is insane, when you compare it to what is above. Unfortunately, its low damage, high rate of fire. Ships have a base armor of 3, meaning the base damage is only really 7, at 29.17dps. Each upgrade to its damage is directly countered by an upgrade to enemy armor at the same price- however your one ship busting out 20 laser upgrades will cost the enemies a fortune to counter you, leaving your team free to go for stats that build stronger in the end.
It should also be noted that 9 levels into 'lasers', you surpass missiles for dps by 1.67dps IF the opponent doesn't purchase any armor. But even 600 minerals into lasers- at 625 minerals into missiles you're only 4.17dps behind, and are able to ignore the majority of your opponents' armor.
::NOTE:: I would love if somebody else would check my math. Message me if you're interested in breaking the game apart some more
::EDIT:: fixed some information
Interesting. But the fact still lies in that laser also hits creeps. If you do a massive 60+ laser attack, then most of the dps get wasted on creeps....
On December 08 2010 20:52 annYeong(o11) wrote: teamwork in this game is completely imbalanced. yesterday i got a few friends together, and then we just started adding people who were good form the games we just played, eventually it got up to 5 people in a party. Holy Check did we rape. we went 13-1 with the one loss because 2 of us dropped out and some guy surprised us with 20/20 mutas.
In my opinion, that's the mark of a good game. I do the same thing with my friends—and the most annoying enemies from each game—and it's way more satisfying to have a team working together.
@flyinfart: Thanks very much for the analysis. I generally play Destroyer, so every laser upgrade also increases my late-game DPS when I get siege. The damage against another capital ship should be 250 DPS +10(a weapon speed of 3sec makes this blessedly easy)for each laser upgrade. If the game were to end, as you said, around the twelfth laser upgrade, you'd end up with 370DPS in siege mode(low fire rate, high damage, vis-à-vis armor), at comparable range to missile attacks, and the fighters' upgrades don't get in the way of farming effectively.
I believe lasers are better than missles but can't post today; I have a difficult final tomorrow I need to study for. I look at dps too, so I think it will be a good comparison. I'll post a detailed analysis like yours either tomorrow or Friday.
On December 09 2010 04:49 flyinfart wrote: Well, seeing as the point of that post was to argue that missiles are better than the standard attack, I don't really see anything constructive in what you said, baconbits. The standard attack upgrades cost the same and target things that get in the way of killing enemy capitol ships. Its common knowledge that the range upgrade doesn't affect the leviathan's tentacles, and the fact was even posted earlier in this thread (I think by you?).
Anyways, a moment of sleep deprived clarity came over me, and I decided to run both cost to damage effectiveness: The missiles are a bit challenging since there are two modifiers. Using the build order I posted, the first +missile gives +50damage, so it grants +12.5dps. The first 4 +dmg upgrades grant +30damage, giving you +7.5dps each. The second +missile gives +70damage, which is +17.5dps. The next 6 +dmg give +8.75dps each. 3rd +missile gives 100dmg, meaning +25dps. Each subsequent +dmg grants 10dps, and that last missile is worth 47.5dps. All together, that is 337.5dps; at about 6.77 minerals per 1dps. Fortunately, games don't usually last that long, and generally end between attack upgrade 12 and 16. So the cost per 1dps at +dmg of 12 is 5.23 minerals. The cost slowly increases over time (from 12-19, it rises about 1.54 minerals per 1dps)
Each laser upgrade gives (0.24*10^2=3*10^2)/24=12.5dps. Which is insane, when you compare it to what is above. Unfortunately, its low damage, high rate of fire. Ships have a base armor of 3, meaning the base damage is only really 7, at 29.17dps. Each upgrade to its damage is directly countered by an upgrade to enemy armor at the same price- however your one ship busting out 20 laser upgrades will cost the enemies a fortune to counter you, leaving your team free to go for stats that build stronger in the end.
It should also be noted that 9 levels into 'lasers', you surpass missiles for dps by 1.67dps IF the opponent doesn't purchase any armor. But even 600 minerals into lasers- at 625 minerals into missiles you're only 4.17dps behind, and are able to ignore the majority of your opponents' armor.
::NOTE:: I would love if somebody else would check my math. Message me if you're interested in breaking the game apart some more
::EDIT:: fixed some information
This is all great, except 2 factors:
1) Lasers are excellent against creep. Missiles can't even be used vs creep. With upgraded lasers you'll always be 1-shotting creep all game, meaning faster farming, more money, and more upgrades.
2) Lasers are player-targetable while missiles aren't You can be chasing some ship near-red with missiles, but as soon as another enemy warps in your missiles will arbitrarily switch targets and you can't do anything about it. With lasers you can actually target and chase down low-health ships to make kills.
Long story short, not all enemies upgrade armor all that much, so high lasers will give you comparable DPS to missiles and versatility in creeping and targeting.
@aeo, I've never quite gotten the hang of the destroyer, but thank you. Thats very good to know! The destroyer definitely has a different play style than the other ships, then.
On December 09 2010 09:34 Arete wrote: Hey fly,
I believe lasers are better than missles but can't post today; I have a difficult final tomorrow I need to study for. I look at dps too, so I think it will be a good comparison. I'll post a detailed analysis like yours either tomorrow or Friday.
I'd love to see your math, since I've just pounded out the numbers and the lasers are only slightly better (level 9 and above), and directly countered by armor upgrades. Also, the lasers max out faster, so if you do make it to the late game, the missiles should actually catch up and pass them (though I haven't calculated this out yet, since I've never actually reached this point).
On December 09 2010 04:49 flyinfart wrote: Well, seeing as the point of that post was to argue that missiles are better than the standard attack, I don't really see anything constructive in what you said, baconbits. The standard attack upgrades cost the same and target things that get in the way of killing enemy capitol ships. Its common knowledge that the range upgrade doesn't affect the leviathan's tentacles, and the fact was even posted earlier in this thread (I think by you?).
Anyways, a moment of sleep deprived clarity came over me, and I decided to run both cost to damage effectiveness: The missiles are a bit challenging since there are two modifiers. Using the build order I posted, the first +missile gives +50damage, so it grants +12.5dps. The first 4 +dmg upgrades grant +30damage, giving you +7.5dps each. The second +missile gives +70damage, which is +17.5dps. The next 6 +dmg give +8.75dps each. 3rd +missile gives 100dmg, meaning +25dps. Each subsequent +dmg grants 10dps, and that last missile is worth 47.5dps. All together, that is 337.5dps; at about 6.77 minerals per 1dps. Fortunately, games don't usually last that long, and generally end between attack upgrade 12 and 16. So the cost per 1dps at +dmg of 12 is 5.23 minerals. The cost slowly increases over time (from 12-19, it rises about 1.54 minerals per 1dps)
Each laser upgrade gives (0.24*10^2=3*10^2)/24=12.5dps. Which is insane, when you compare it to what is above. Unfortunately, its low damage, high rate of fire. Ships have a base armor of 3, meaning the base damage is only really 7, at 29.17dps. Each upgrade to its damage is directly countered by an upgrade to enemy armor at the same price- however your one ship busting out 20 laser upgrades will cost the enemies a fortune to counter you, leaving your team free to go for stats that build stronger in the end.
It should also be noted that 9 levels into 'lasers', you surpass missiles for dps by 1.67dps IF the opponent doesn't purchase any armor. But even 600 minerals into lasers- at 625 minerals into missiles you're only 4.17dps behind, and are able to ignore the majority of your opponents' armor.
::NOTE:: I would love if somebody else would check my math. Message me if you're interested in breaking the game apart some more
::EDIT:: fixed some information
This is all great, except 2 factors:
1) Lasers are excellent against creep. Missiles can't even be used vs creep. With upgraded lasers you'll always be 1-shotting creep all game, meaning faster farming, more money, and more upgrades.
2) Lasers are player-targetable while missiles aren't You can be chasing some ship near-red with missiles, but as soon as another enemy warps in your missiles will arbitrarily switch targets and you can't do anything about it. With lasers you can actually target and chase down low-health ships to make kills.
Long story short, not all enemies upgrade armor all that much, so high lasers will give you comparable DPS to missiles and versatility in creeping and targeting.
1) a) my point is that lasers do target creeps, and missiles don't. A smart opponent will engage your ship over a wave of creeps and send out their fighters. This gives you extra money, but all the money in the world wont help a dead man. Of coarse, how often do you face teams that are intelligent enough to do this? b) something else to take note of is the farming strength of abilities like psionic storm and caustic slime. The comparative value of the two methods of farming is nigh impossible to make beyond in game experience. I personally prefer psionic storm over lasers, and can generally out farm laser builds unless the opponent has gone feedback and is being an annoying bitch (which needs some nerfing imo, its too easy to disable an entire team with it; but thats a different conversation) or you're being targeted for first blood. Thats up to the player though, because mathematically there is no way to calculate play style, strategy and counter strategy into the equation. 2) I've never found lasers to be player-targetable, but thats interesting. I'm going to have to experiment with that because it seems too good to be true. It always feels like you can deny enemy laser farming by getting close to them, while storm farming is only countered by killing your own creeps with spells or feedback/emp which is getting to be more and more common knowledge.
So yes, I agree that lasers can dominate quite effectively, in pub games. But competitively, which is going to be more effective? The missiles deal more damage initially, are harder to directly counter, have slightly better range, and I think max out with more damage.
Can anybody confirm that weapons max out at a certain level?
On December 09 2010 04:49 flyinfart wrote: Well, seeing as the point of that post was to argue that missiles are better than the standard attack, I don't really see anything constructive in what you said, baconbits. The standard attack upgrades cost the same and target things that get in the way of killing enemy capitol ships. Its common knowledge that the range upgrade doesn't affect the leviathan's tentacles, and the fact was even posted earlier in this thread (I think by you?).
Anyways, a moment of sleep deprived clarity came over me, and I decided to run both cost to damage effectiveness: The missiles are a bit challenging since there are two modifiers. Using the build order I posted, the first +missile gives +50damage, so it grants +12.5dps. The first 4 +dmg upgrades grant +30damage, giving you +7.5dps each. The second +missile gives +70damage, which is +17.5dps. The next 6 +dmg give +8.75dps each. 3rd +missile gives 100dmg, meaning +25dps. Each subsequent +dmg grants 10dps, and that last missile is worth 47.5dps. All together, that is 337.5dps; at about 6.77 minerals per 1dps. Fortunately, games don't usually last that long, and generally end between attack upgrade 12 and 16. So the cost per 1dps at +dmg of 12 is 5.23 minerals. The cost slowly increases over time (from 12-19, it rises about 1.54 minerals per 1dps)
Each laser upgrade gives (0.24*10^2=3*10^2)/24=12.5dps. Which is insane, when you compare it to what is above. Unfortunately, its low damage, high rate of fire. Ships have a base armor of 3, meaning the base damage is only really 7, at 29.17dps. Each upgrade to its damage is directly countered by an upgrade to enemy armor at the same price- however your one ship busting out 20 laser upgrades will cost the enemies a fortune to counter you, leaving your team free to go for stats that build stronger in the end.
It should also be noted that 9 levels into 'lasers', you surpass missiles for dps by 1.67dps IF the opponent doesn't purchase any armor. But even 600 minerals into lasers- at 625 minerals into missiles you're only 4.17dps behind, and are able to ignore the majority of your opponents' armor.
::NOTE:: I would love if somebody else would check my math. Message me if you're interested in breaking the game apart some more
::EDIT:: fixed some information
Interesting. But the fact still lies in that laser also hits creeps. If you do a massive 60+ laser attack, then most of the dps get wasted on creeps....
agree. I start with getting laser lvl 5~6 for farm and then I go mass missiles (unless i see that they don't know what armor is). Going laser heavy vs good players is not good imo, it is so easy to conter.
My normal BC "build": start: 3 lvl speed 2 laser rest (1 i think) range farm laser to lvl 5~6 and more range armor lvl 10 more speed (until the 800 upgrade) more farm (having that high armor and speed will make you very hard to gank, so you can go out far for the farm without risking anything) missiles lvl ~12 and the 200 mineral extra missile uppgrade 800 cost speed more missile
The reason I preferring the BC for this build is that EMP can be good to have late game to prevent ppl from going around your armor and nuking you to death or spam PDD to remove your shots.
I am 10-4 with this since the game started saving stats so I think it works fine (not so good if everyone in the team do this tho as it is very late game oriented)
If lasers ( not possbile anyways per hit as you'dneed way more upgrades ( 3 vs 5+ and you also need to get +40 to match the base damage ) = damage of missiles, you need 17.5 missile attacks in every 4 second volley to match
4 x 1 / 0.23 = 4 x 4.34
but lasers don't always hit the targets you want
missiles don't hit creep, but have longer range ( always capital ships )
you should probably get more missiles than lasers or get some other upgrade?
On December 09 2010 22:18 nalgene wrote: ... but lasers don't always hit the targets you want ...
Just a note: Laser and missile have the same target prio. That is the most damaged enemy player with in range first. If no player is in range then lasers can fire at creaps. If the missiles and lasers attacks 2 different ships it is because the most damaged ship (the ship the missiles are targeting) is out of range for the lasers they there for pick a target within range.
On December 09 2010 22:18 nalgene wrote: ... but lasers don't always hit the targets you want ...
Just a note: Laser and missile have the same target prio. That is the most damaged enemy player with in range first. If no player is in range then lasers can fire at creaps. If the missiles and lasers attacks 2 different ships it is because the most damaged ship (the ship the missiles are targeting) is out of range for the lasers they there for pick a target within range.
On the whole lasers vs. missiles matter, I would emphasise that it's not really an arbitrary 'x is better than y' issue, but rather it depends on your play style and build. For the most part, missiles will suit an 'assassin' style ship, especially when upgrades for range and speed are bought. The advantage of this is that you stay out of the main brawl and are less susceptible to ganks and area of effect abilities (vortex, storm, nuke ect.) and if you get the upgrades for additional missile attacks you can cause some serious damage and are prime position to take out damaged ships which are attempting to limp to safety. On the other hand, laser upgrades suit more tanky builds, which require armour and shield improvements, and pretty much rely on regen. or shield abilities to protect you from burst damage. Additionally, spells become more effective since you're right up close to your enemies, so they can't run away from really high damage abilities like strike cannons and photon barrage, having to eat the damage, which can often turn the course of the battle.
Missiles are nice for creeping in that you will deal damage to enemy ships faster, forcing them to pull back sooner, giving you and your team more time to farm creeps. But if you plan to farm at all you definitely have to make sure you have enough laser damage to 1 hit creeps first, otherwise you'll get creep denied 50-60% of the time so long as there is another ship, friend or foe, near you.
This map is awesome though. I know everyone and their dog has ideas for additions to the game. Here's mine:
1: An option to install a more powerful weapon on your ship that is treated as an ability with a cooldown but no mana cost (much like Raynor's special weapons in the single player campaign). This would be a great way to add further differentiation between the different ships. Just for example, the carrier could have some kind of wave attack that is great for creeping, the destroyer could have a targeted area effect, the battle cruiser could have a line attack, and the Leviathan could have some kind life-draining ability that targets an enemy ship, dealing damage and healing itself at the same time.
2: Different creep ships; I'd like it if more powerful creep ships appeared from time to time. There are plenty of other unused ship models in the game, it would be nice if they occasionally appeared. This would also add another consideration to your ship build; instead of only tiny creep fighters or massive capital ships you have an in-between enemy you need to account for.
3: Escort ships; all capital ships should have their own selection of escort craft to purchase. These escort craft could share base upgrades with you, and have their own additional pool of special abilities to upgrade. They would not be directly controllable but would simply follow you around in formation and use their abilities automatically. The Carrier, for example, could have scouts, void rays, observers, transports (just use the transport model but give it some weapons/abilities) and perhaps even miniature motherships/carriers to choose from. The battlecruiser (and destroyer?) could have ravens, science vessels, medivacs, mini battlecruisers/jackson revenges, larger wraiths/vikings. The leviathan could have broodlords, scourge swarms, overlords and overseers, and bigger mutas.
These escort craft could have varying roles; help with creeping, help with sniping, regenerate your health, shields, or mana, directly tank for you, etc.
This would further differentiate the different capital ships and give the players more interesting strategic options.
These escort ships could be from the same pool as the larger neutral creep ships too.
I personally feel that the creeps should be buffed more. Even in late game after all the HP increase, they still feel like insignificant insects. In the early game, a swarm of creeps should present SOME threat to a lone capital ship at least.
Also, the two prisms/vessels need more dps. They aren't really serving their roles very well.
On December 10 2010 13:59 dukethegold wrote: I personally feel that the creeps should be buffed more. Even in late game after all the HP increase, they still feel like insignificant insects. In the early game, a swarm of creeps should present SOME threat to a lone capital ship at least.
Also, the two prisms/vessels need more dps. They aren't really serving their roles very well.
I disagree about the creeps. No one needs more of an excuse to stay in one big stupid herd the entire game—especially at the beginning.
I've played with too many teams that spend the first ten minutes trying to gang up on enemy capital ships, miss out on farming completely, and lose because they're way behind in upgrades. They then insist that they should've done better at ganging up on ships early. One team even blamed me for farming instead of joining the posse.
No, if anything, we need more encouragement to farm first and win decisively.
You MUST upgrade to lvl 4 lasers to one shot creeps (makes farming so much faster and upgrade is dirt cheap). Lvl 4 lasers puts you at 22 atk dmg. Creeps have 20 hp (10 sh, 10 hp) in the beginning, but can get upgraded later on. Not entirely sure when they get upgraded, but I have seen them at 15 sh, 15 hp with armor and attack upgrades.
Aeo has it spot on. Farming is priority one at the beginning of the game. There is not enough dps early on to gang up on ships. Like in normal SC2 ladder, boosting your eco early on to tech up is a better play than an "all in", but with less risks in this custom map.
There is also the aspect of the team dynamic, i.e. how the tech paths chosen by each team member complement each other. For example, one guy can get feedback while the rest of the team can be high dps Leviathans. Eliminating spells puts the match in your favor if your team has built for normal attack upgrades. What do you guys think of the team dynamic aspect? I know there are tons of combos to be discovered.
The mutalisks/wraiths/interceptors should move faster as you upgrade them ( +0.05 speed per upgrade, +1 HP regen to capital ship, +0.5 HP regen to these units, Release range + 0.20 per upgrade, decrease attack cooldown by 0.05 each upgrade, decrease the release time by 0.01 per upgrade ) Decrease the attack cooldown on these units Increase the base damage to 20 for mutalisks
I agree about farming early. I do my best to avoid enemy ships in the first 5 minutes. Nothing gets accomplished with the early ganging, except in very rare occasions.
I think interceptors kind of suck, but maybe I'm wrong about some of my assumptions: 1) as mentioned, give more minerals than normal fighters 2) horrible launch range; have to get very close 3) most difficult to control targeting (do you have any control?) 4) enemy ships can outrun them
EPT
