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Osaka27003 Posts
I can't believe I am spending my time on this.
From now on, if you use a spambot to try and disconnect your opponent, you will be banned from the TSL and from life in general because you are a pathetic nerd.
If someone is spamming you, /dnd, screenshot, and send the replay + screenshots to me.
Thank you.
PS. Fenix loses 500 points. Be happy it isn't a DQ.
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500 points is enough pain anyway.. he wont qualify..
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
oh disregard my PM
but 500 pts? I love you mani but this is garbage. You guys are aiming for a professional non korean league and a guy who will probably qualify used a fucking spam bot.. and was caught, who knows how many koreans or other people he used the bot on and we didnt hear about it. Also if he's willing to do that it is logical to assume he will or has done other things.
Please reconsider and ban him.
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8719 Posts
I also think he should be banned. Why does the first person get such a small punishment but the second gets a life ban? I can only imagine that the first person gets leniency because there was no rule specifically against it but the act is malicious enough that it needn't be specifically addressed in the rules for a player to know that it won't be tolerated. If there is another reason for leniency on only the first perpetrator, I'd like to hear it.
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Braavos36362 Posts
What if I find out who you are playing and spam bot him? Should you be disqualified?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
oh you are saying that was what was happening here? We could do hypotheticals all day Hot_Bid. What if someone mastered my keys and make a replay of me "hacking" while on hamachi? What if someone made a hack that was like a trojan and makes your games look like hacks? What if the spambot wasn't a bot at all, but in fact an alien sent to make us lag?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
The fact is nobody spam bots random games. It hasn't been done on a non east game in _ever_. Especially ICCUP. But if someone does use the method and there is no ambiguity about it (FENIX) then they should be banned. Are you saying there are less punishments because you aren't sure it was someone be malicious without any connection to either gamer?
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Canada9720 Posts
i agree with hot_bid, just a screen shot isn't proof enough. terribly incriminating, sure, but unless it happens again, or someone else comes forward with ss i don't think it's fair to ban fenix.
simple solution is for everyone to always use /dnd when they play
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Spenguin
Australia3316 Posts
Ban the fucker, I looked at the shot from Artosis, I reckon he should be banned so as to make public your stance on any hackers, be they small time, big time, pussy hacks and massive killers.
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Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
On April 21 2008 01:12 {88}iNcontroL wrote: The fact is nobody spam bots random games. It hasn't been done on a non east game in _ever_. Especially ICCUP. But if someone does use the method and there is no ambiguity about it (FENIX) then they should be banned. Are you saying there are less punishments because you aren't sure it was someone be malicious without any connection to either gamer?
What if after these angry statements of yours someone just went, found out who you were playing against, and spammed him, if only just for the fun of getting you banned? Would you then insist on insta-banning as well?
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Spenguin
Australia3316 Posts
Wouldn't there be heaps of proof that he didn't spam?
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Unless I am overlooking something, isn't it terribly easy to check the IP of that bot and the IP of Fenix and make the connection?
Does the bot change the IP?
Could we not confirm whether it was or was not Fenix by this?
Regardless, if it _WAS_ Fenix and there is proof, I would agree with Inc and say he should be banned. It goes without saying that for a professional league, that behaviour is unacceptable.
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Braavos36362 Posts
Stop. Posting. Here. Everyone.
There are better threads to spend your time on!!!!
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Artosis
United States2135 Posts
rofl what a nerd fenix is..
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Braavos36362 Posts
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8719 Posts
On April 21 2008 01:06 Hot_Bid wrote: What if I find out who you are playing and spam bot him? Should you be disqualified?
I don't understand how this justifies giving Fenix -500 points and saying that from now on, the punishment will be a ban. Still, I assumed you matched the IP address used by the spamming account in the screenshots to the IP address used by TSL-Fenix. There shouldn't be any problem identifying the culprit. But if you're implying that Fenix got a very small punishment because you weren't very certain that he was guilty, then I have even bigger objections.
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I think we should ban all spambots that spam something other than the phrase [b]Sex sex pussy hair/[b].
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huge BM. i wud ban. fenix knows what hes doing and just because it isnt in the rules he's takin advantage of it.
Your friendly iCCup Admin.
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you simply cant ban someone because he's done something considered wrong, but never mentioned in rules. If I was in charge, i wouldnt even take 500 points from him, coz all he did was send many messeges to a person. Im not trying to defend him or anything, but you guys keep talking about being proffesional--punishing someone for something thats not even mentioned in the rules is unprofessional.
First make the law, and then make people act according to it.
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On April 21 2008 02:48 wkJUNG88 wrote:huge BM. i wud ban. fenix knows what hes doing and just because it isnt in the rules he's takin advantage of it. Your friendly iCCup Admin. if there were more people like him, the world would be a better place coz the rules/laws would get better and better, close to ideal with time.
This guy should get a 'thx' for helping fix the holes in rules.
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Its not a rule that you dont sleep with your sister, but its a given. I dont care if he gets DQ or not, I just dont want to see him in the qualifiers. 1) We dont know how many times hes attempted this stunt, and 2) He also managed to get caught. Slipping up should be enough to get you the boot. Fortunately enough, that 500 pt demerit was enough to knock him into #60.
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Hack not so much. idiot's way to try to win i suppose yes
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lol :D too bad fenix, too bad fenix's brother was the spammer xD im sure, that guy hates me since i rape fenix in a tourney :D Thats why he used astraboyxd
U_U
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Osaka27003 Posts
It doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks. This is the rule, this is the punishment, and nobody else is in a position to make this decision. The end.
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from the iccup shoutbox:
TSL-Fenix 21/04 Hey admin of Tsl why -500 points in my accout ?
PLease Fix
You didn't tell fenix about this?!
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On April 21 2008 08:08 jtan wrote:from the iccup shoutbox: You didn't tell fenix about this?! quick, some1 get on spambot and whisper him the info 20 times
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Never knew such stuff existed. Next time someone hacks I think he should be burned at the stake though. No joke.
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Hacking for fun is one thing. Hacking in such a league should be instant-ban, no matter which form it takes, if the person found is 100% sure to be using it.
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Osaka27003 Posts
On April 21 2008 08:08 jtan wrote:from the iccup shoutbox: You didn't tell fenix about this?!
I knew I forgot to do something before I fell asleep last night.
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On April 21 2008 08:08 jtan wrote:from the iccup shoutbox: You didn't tell fenix about this?! This is awesome.
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Trinidad/Tobago1177 Posts
LOL. How low will these guys go ? Fenix how poor =[
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Belgium9937 Posts
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On April 21 2008 03:57 niteReloaded wrote: you simply cant ban someone because he's done something considered wrong, but never mentioned in rules. If I was in charge, i wouldnt even take 500 points from him, coz all he did was send many messeges to a person. Im not trying to defend him or anything, but you guys keep talking about being proffesional--punishing someone for something thats not even mentioned in the rules is unprofessional.
First make the law, and then make people act according to it. Well, Hotbid is a law student...good job hotbid.
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Osaka27003 Posts
On April 21 2008 03:57 niteReloaded wrote: you simply cant ban someone because he's done something considered wrong, but never mentioned in rules. If I was in charge, i wouldnt even take 500 points from him, coz all he did was send many messeges to a person. Im not trying to defend him or anything, but you guys keep talking about being proffesional--punishing someone for something thats not even mentioned in the rules is unprofessional.
First make the law, and then make people act according to it.
K well if tomorrow strelok flies to mondragon's house and breaks his hands prior to the tournament we wont ban him. I mean we didn't say anything about that in the rules. If he does it twice though, we'll get him.
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I don't get it why are you guys saying it wasn't on rules.
6. Any player caught using any form of cheating will be banned from TSL and all future TL events How isn't that SPECIFIC of a rule enough?
cheat v 1# To act dishonestly; practice fraud. It is perfectly clear as day that spamming, with the only intent of getting your opponent disconnected, is an act of dishonestly -> cheating -> against rules
If a soccer player enters a game with a red dyed aluminum saw and uses it to try to kill an opponent player on field, he won't get away with it because the no-violence chapter of the rules didn't specify a red dyed aluminum saw.
I don't mean to judge the admins' decision. Because even tho I personally would have banned him. I'm also sure you're all much better than me to conduct a tournament. All I can do is come here and humbly give my opinion. But I trust that your final decision will be fair.
Just don't say it wasn't on the rules because it clearly was.
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Ban. Can't believe he'd spam bot. Lame.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
mani took the words right out of my mouth. Nitereload, if there ever was any doubt: You are retarded. Cannot believe you took the time to write up those words and still your brain didnt scream "STOP, THIS IS HORRIBLY MORONIC" before you clicked "post." Amazing. Wear a helmet plz.
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Even Manifesto is on our side, BAN him. As VIB said, it WAS on your rules, i WOULD be a fair decition. I think they have given enought examples of what the world would be if the criminals would be released just because there was no especific law against the crime they comited. YOu guys are manipulating your own system, to make it look fair. The other option is that u dont want to punish him because u dont know for sure if it was him the one spaming, but as Nony said that would only make things worst.
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hmmm i think its legitimate enough sure he used the spam bot and its a form of cheating but thats already their ruling so they think its fair let them do what they want people. Plus if he does use spam bot in the tournament (which i doubt he will now) well still get some good games from everyone else so just chillz
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Germany2896 Posts
Can a spoofer be combined with a spambot? If yes you should take double care with the IPs.
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I'm not saying he did it or not, but why would he bother? Something like this is pretty obvious and for 1 lame ladder game where he stands to lose like 100 points, I can't see why he'd risk his place in the finals for one crappy game.
Or is Fenix crazy?
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On April 21 2008 16:21 RowdierBob wrote: I'm not saying he did it or not, but why would he bother? Something like this is pretty obvious and for 1 lame ladder game where he stands to lose like 100 points, I can't see why he'd risk his place in the finals for one crappy game.
Or is Fenix crazy? 1 lame ladder game that we know of, given how bad he is and the fact that he had pretty decent stats theres a good chance this isnt the first time hes cheated, just first time he got caught.
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lol i hope everyone will use vod recording in the tsl starleague so noone could abuse....
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2:44 to go and he's currently 49th. Its 8:15 am in Peru atm so hopefully he wont be waking up before its over. And there's lots of people below him currently scrambling for points, things are looking good.
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Stegosaur
Netherlands1231 Posts
God knows how many people he cheated out of a spot in the top 48 by doing this? Ban would be the best solution imo
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Ok seriously now, how fucking obvious can you be. In the last like.. 30 minutes he beats a fellow peruvian 4 times, all games under 10 minutes, the first 2 games under 5 minutes. All resulting in just barely squeezing into the top 48. Ban this fucker pleeeease.
edit.. ok, now he dropped to 49 again afer someone won. Still, though, this seems like some pretty blatant cheating.
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wow, you don't ever play against you fellow countrymen? I bet I can find some 3 games in a row where you do? should we ban you too?
/dnd = thx @ the spambot
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Rofl fenix on 49. Too bad he lost 500 points ahahahahahahahahaha
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On April 22 2008 01:18 quirinus wrote: wow, you don't ever play against you fellow countrymen? I bet I can find some 3 games in a row where you do? should we ban you too?
/dnd = thx @ the spambot
There are more ways to cheat than maphacking and spambotting. I think this looks suspicious enough for the admins to take a closer look at (reps and whatever else there is to do, I don't really know). Even though it ended up that he didnt qualify, if he actually DID have his opponent lose on purpose in these 4 games I don't think anyone wants him in the next TSL.
Its the first time in the TSL he's ever played against a Peruvian, an opponent who has no chance of qualifying. He beats said person 4 times all under 10 minutes, and it just so happens that this all happens in the last 30ish minutes of the TSL. And it just so happens he's been penalized for hacking before. It's not a long shot that these 2 people know each other.
And it would be hard to ban me since I'm not playing.
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On April 22 2008 01:19 CubEdIn wrote: Rofl fenix on 49. Too bad he lost 500 points ahahahahahahahahaha yeah, he got 49th place by 2 points LOL gj fenix
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is awesome32252 Posts
pe TSL.Zink 21/04 o no wait a sec when ladder ends a pic was take and fenix was 47. remember that
the peruvian gang is coming.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On April 22 2008 01:18 quirinus wrote: wow, you don't ever play against you fellow countrymen? I bet I can find some 3 games in a row where you do? should we ban you too?
/dnd = thx @ the spambot
4 short games seconds before the deadline vs your countrymen who couldn't qualify anyways IS suspicious. Comparing that to "games with your countrymen" is a gross misrepresentation of the factors involved.
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they should request those 4 reps for inspection T.T
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Let's say the protoss goes 13 nexus in one of those matches. How can you prove that that's throwing the match. Very suspicious but also very hard to prove. And you are allowed to play vs a friend you now is less skilled afaik.
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playing vs someone you know you can beat is also not cheating thats called smart laddering he may know them and know he can stomp them quickly a couple times and seeing as TSL can ask for the replays in question I'm certain they will figure that situation out to the best of their ability yelling on a thread that he needs to be banned without any actual knowledge of what happened doesn't really help at all
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
nm it's rediculous that people would defend playing 3+ games against your friend that cannot qualify in the last moments of a ladder and woops, all the games the qualifying hopeful won and in relatively short periods of time wowoowow what a convenient coincidence!
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Belgium6738 Posts
Fenix is seriously a piece of shit :/
look:
pe TSL-Fenix 21/04 Sorry , its 600 points
pe TSL-Fenix 21/04 Hey admin of Tsl why -500 points in my accout ?
PLease Fix
"600 points" ? Nobody can be that stupid without doing it on purpose
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On April 22 2008 03:16 {88}iNcontroL wrote: nm it's rediculous that people would defend playing 3+ games against your friend that cannot qualify in the last moments of a ladder and woops, all the games the qualifying hopeful won and in relatively short periods of time wowoowow what a convenient coincidence!
like his strategies or not playing someone who you know you can beat late in the ladder stage is SMART not cheating, I'm not defending him I'm just saying lets stop convincting him before the TSL admins have had a chance to review it. Okay so he got busted with the spam bot that doesnt mean any slightest suspicion brought up against him in the next couple days is automatically true.
Give me a break man if you were on the edge of qualifying just a couple wins away and you had a friend who you KNOW you could beat in legit games rather quickly wouldnt you ask them for a couple games? As long as they were real games and not his friend just giving him free wins why the fuck does it matter if he played then a week ago or right before the end of qualifying.
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i have a confess from DsG.ArDviI who was the true author of this mess:
"My name is Arnold Peceros Manrique aka ArDvI with MsN soloparati1688@hotmail.com. Regarding the problem of the peruvian player TSL-Fenix, about sending a long messages to another player (TSL-Artosis), I must confese that he didnt do anything, the cause of these messages was me, and it was not with no ill intent was only to annoy, never though make hurts to Fenix, if you can see the IP you can see that belongs to me, what really happened was this: "I joined the server with my account DsG.ArDvI. I asked Fenix against who he was figthing and he told me that TSL-Artosis, and didnt know what the hell i bother him, then i log off and join with accaount AstraboyxD and send a long message: ####...## and send it several times to TSL-Artosis, and how he put me IGNORE i log off again battle. Then i entered with DsG.ArDvI and TSL-Fenix come out the game, I said to myself how fast he won, or perhaps what I did it helps him, well that was all. But know this day I connect to the internet and I find this whole mess. What I mean by this is that TSL-Fenix did not have the most minimal idea of what had happened, if someone must be punishment its ME, I knows Fenix and admit that I am almost a friend for him, but this is all that happened, for my stupid annoy, I frustrate the image of a large player such as TSL-Fenix, I hope admins will contact me and any doubt or punishment give me to me. Please forgive my bad english, i used a translate for this."
I have the text original in spanish so if u want to take it tell to me temil_sc@hotmail.com
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On April 22 2008 03:41 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2008 03:16 {88}iNcontroL wrote: nm it's rediculous that people would defend playing 3+ games against your friend that cannot qualify in the last moments of a ladder and woops, all the games the qualifying hopeful won and in relatively short periods of time wowoowow what a convenient coincidence! like his strategies or not playing someone who you know you can beat late in the ladder stage is SMART not cheating, I'm not defending him I'm just saying lets stop convincting him before the TSL admins have had a chance to review it. Okay so he got busted with the spam bot that doesnt mean any slightest suspicion brought up against him in the next couple days is automatically true. Give me a break man if you were on the edge of qualifying just a couple wins away and you had a friend who you KNOW you could beat in legit games rather quickly wouldnt you ask them for a couple games? As long as they were real games and not his friend just giving him free wins why the fuck does it matter if he played then a week ago or right before the end of qualifying.
You're right. If I knew I could get some wins off a friend who couldn't qualify I would most certainly abuse. I mean, that's what people do right? Oh wait, Raelcun seems to have no idea what or how competition works. I should become a professional boxer. I can just box the shit out of my other professional boxer "friends" who allow me to win so that I can be known as the boxer with the greatest record. I mean, you'd do that too wouldn't you?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
btw how come there aren't a chorus of laughter coming from this "confession?" Woops! Our bad! hahaha ok +500pts to fenix.. rofl
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I dont believe that for a second. It's probably the same guy he beat 4 times.
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Where is the line between not trying hard, not even trying to win or just throwing the match outright? Or just doing bad strategies on purpose while trying your best?
Not saying anyone did this, but it's really a difficult area to moderate/rule on. And a good way to get points if you are desperate.
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Look, check the ip adress, if he said that he must be pretty sure and seriously this thread piss me off
i just think is clearly not cheating with a spam bot, just seriously its so so easy to find out who cheated, its surnatural
And also at all the people who are like Ban Fenix immidiately, this guy doesnt have a clue of what the hell is going on, no admin said why he lost 500 point
And if he has + 500 point he wouldnt have made this games against his friend peruvian
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Here's an idea: find me a situation in which a friend played a friend and friend A COULD qualify with 3 wins or so while for friend B it doesnt matter, they are too far out. After you do that find the situation in which friend B won more games and knocked friend A from contention. Cant? Thats fucking odd. I can find a BUNCH of sitations in which friend A ironically always triumphed. Now sure, it could be coincidence. But for fuck sakes, the probability of 100% result scenarios for something like this is fucking absurd. And everyone blindly defending the people who somehow managed to win their games against friend B at the end of a ladder is amazing.
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Seriously Inc, if that is an issue it should be in the rules, don't you think? Just state: you're not allowed to play the same person more than three times a day. And you're done with it.
Yes, if I was #50-#60, I would only play against weaker players during the last few hours to make sure I get in. Is that wrong? Then maybe consider blaming Mondragon for only playing against europeans huh? Isn't it about the same reasoning? He'd rather play against people he knows he can beat to score #1. But that's ok, because he actually got a shot at winning 5000 dollars. If I was doing it to get into top 48 it would not be ok, I see. You can't blame anyone for playing against weaker players. In fact, if someone would have gotten into the top 48 by constantly winning 5-10-20 points against D/D+ players, he would have the right to be in there. Right?
And, I'll repeat myself here, if what you're saying is that whoever x played against THREW the games so that x will make it in the top 48, then that should easily be seen in replays, right?
So then what's the issue here?
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On April 22 2008 04:15 trollbone wrote: And if he has + 500 point he wouldnt have made this games against his friend peruvian
Oh so if he hadn't been caught the first time, he wouldn't have to cheat a second time, how awesome logic.
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On April 22 2008 04:16 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Here's an idea: find me a situation in which a friend played a friend and friend A COULD qualify with 3 wins or so while for friend B it doesnt matter, they are too far out. After you do that find the situation in which friend B won more games and knocked friend A from contention. Cant? Thats fucking odd. I can find a BUNCH of sitations in which friend A ironically always triumphed. Now sure, it could be coincidence. But for fuck sakes, the probability of 100% result scenarios for something like this is fucking absurd. And everyone blindly defending the people who somehow managed to win their games against friend B at the end of a ladder is amazing.
Check out TSL-DeathAngel's profile. He registered 5-6 days ago and went up to the top 500. He was B or B- yesterday night but then lost A LOT of points to Flaf (also romanian, they know eachother, same team, etc). Flaf wasn't even in TSL, why ON EARTH would he take DeathAngel's points? Why not just drop the games and help DeathAngel get B+? Considering it happened during the last 24 hours of TSL I guess you could say it's last minute.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On April 22 2008 04:18 CubEdIn wrote: Seriously Inc, if that is an issue it should be in the rules, don't you think? Just state: you're not allowed to play the same person more than three times a day. And you're done with it.
Yes, if I was #50-#60, I would only play against weaker players during the last few hours to make sure I get in. Is that wrong? Then maybe consider blaming Mondragon for only playing against europeans huh? Isn't it about the same reasoning? He'd rather play against people he knows he can beat to score #1. But that's ok, because he actually got a shot at winning 5000 dollars. If I was doing it to get into top 48 it would not be ok, I see. You can't blame anyone for playing against weaker players. In fact, if someone would have gotten into the top 48 by constantly winning 5-10-20 points against D/D+ players, he would have the right to be in there. Right?
And, I'll repeat myself here, if what you're saying is that whoever x played against THREW the games so that x will make it in the top 48, then that should easily be seen in replays, right?
So then what's the issue here?
You cross x a bunch of examples that have seperate factors and are in now way comparable aside from two gamers play and 1 wins. Stop. You also ignore a lot of my analysis and just continue to state your same ol, "they are just two guys playing a game and one is better" bull crap.
We are done here.
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Wat? I even gave you an example. You're yelling around because some people abused others of lower skill to get a few extra last-minute points.
ANYTHING else in your 'analysis' is a semi-hidden-accusation of people dropping games in favor of others. And if that's the case, then admins should see it. Easily.
So yeah, we're done here, I don't like repeating myself so you can just ignore or misinterprit.
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On April 21 2008 10:25 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2008 03:57 niteReloaded wrote: you simply cant ban someone because he's done something considered wrong, but never mentioned in rules. If I was in charge, i wouldnt even take 500 points from him, coz all he did was send many messeges to a person. Im not trying to defend him or anything, but you guys keep talking about being proffesional--punishing someone for something thats not even mentioned in the rules is unprofessional.
First make the law, and then make people act according to it. K well if tomorrow strelok flies to mondragon's house and breaks his hands prior to the tournament we wont ban him. I mean we didn't say anything about that in the rules. If he does it twice though, we'll get him. TL is known for having a strict policy, which is often described as unfair and biased and stuff like that. It is said that the law is the minimum of moral. TL often raises that limit a bit, so sometimes your decisions seem harsh, but they are right, morally right.
In your example, if strelok really breaks mondragons arms, i dont think you would have the right to ban him from TSL. It would be right, but the entire thing would be a bit too abstract. If this was the real world, a good lawyer would take you to court and wipe the floor with you. (This does not mean I dont agree with you.)
I dont think progamers would get DQed from Starleague if they had a fight and injured eachother in their free time.
PS. Dont think im defending this guy, the idea of the problem interests me more than this specific example.
PPS. On April 21 2008 14:38 {88}iNcontroL wrote: oink!
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On April 22 2008 03:51 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2008 03:41 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:On April 22 2008 03:16 {88}iNcontroL wrote: nm it's rediculous that people would defend playing 3+ games against your friend that cannot qualify in the last moments of a ladder and woops, all the games the qualifying hopeful won and in relatively short periods of time wowoowow what a convenient coincidence! like his strategies or not playing someone who you know you can beat late in the ladder stage is SMART not cheating, I'm not defending him I'm just saying lets stop convincting him before the TSL admins have had a chance to review it. Okay so he got busted with the spam bot that doesnt mean any slightest suspicion brought up against him in the next couple days is automatically true. Give me a break man if you were on the edge of qualifying just a couple wins away and you had a friend who you KNOW you could beat in legit games rather quickly wouldnt you ask them for a couple games? As long as they were real games and not his friend just giving him free wins why the fuck does it matter if he played then a week ago or right before the end of qualifying. You're right. If I knew I could get some wins off a friend who couldn't qualify I would most certainly abuse. I mean, that's what people do right? Oh wait, Raelcun seems to have no idea what or how competition works. I should become a professional boxer. I can just box the shit out of my other professional boxer "friends" who allow me to win so that I can be known as the boxer with the greatest record. I mean, you'd do that too wouldn't you?
Dont take this the wrong way but grow up. The only reason you care about this is because of who did it and when they did it. If he played the same friend a week ago you wouldnt give a damn. Its a ladder playing someone you know you can beat is not against any rules unless they lose on purpose. And guess what? Nobody has determined if he lost on purpose or not, so why don't we stop calling him a cheater before someone can review it? Its only cheating if he like you said allowed Fenix to win, plus the whole innocent until proven guilty thing on top of that?
Okay so its suspicious so what prove that his friend lost intentionally and I'll agree with you but until then I disagree.
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On April 22 2008 04:09 BlackStar wrote: Where is the line between not trying hard, not even trying to win or just throwing the match outright? Or just doing bad strategies on purpose while trying your best?
Not saying anyone did this, but it's really a difficult area to moderate/rule on. And a good way to get points if you are desperate. Wouldn't a simple "can't play same guy more than X times a day" rule stop it?
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There is a rule and they didn't violate that rule so now they're trying to say that since they're from the same country they know eachother and its a free win
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Considering that Fenix is scumback, I am pretty sure he just tryed to abuse his way to top48, I think ppl who disagree here r either Fenix himself, his friends or the type of guys who like to argue about anything. Also NrT.Ultraling went 7-1 in last moments vs his teammate/countrymate lol.. + Show Spoiler +8488 ro TSL-UltraLinG 7119 ro NrT.FlaF 15 : 12 +97 Details 8391 ro TSL-UltraLinG 7194 ro NrT.FlaF 12 : 16 +97 Details 8294 ro TSL-UltraLinG 7269 ro NrT.FlaF 03 : 42 +97 Details 7107 ro NrT.FlaF 8419 ro TSL-UltraLinG 08 : 58 -125 Details 8322 ro TSL-UltraLinG 7182 ro NrT.FlaF 08 : 16 +97 Details 8225 ro TSL-UltraLinG 7257 ro NrT.FlaF 09 : 12 +97 Details 8128 ro TSL-UltraLinG 7332 ro NrT.FlaF 08 : 21 +97 Details 7998 ro TSL-UltraLinG 7432 ro NrT.FlaF 10 : 38 +130 Details
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On April 22 2008 06:07 kroko wrote:Considering that Fenix is scumback, I am pretty sure he just tryed to abuse his way to top48, I think ppl who disagree here r either Fenix himself, his friends or the type of guys who like to argue about anything. Also NrT.Ultraling went 7-1 in last moments vs his teammate/countrymate lol.. + Show Spoiler +8488 ro TSL-UltraLinG 7119 ro NrT.FlaF 15 : 12 +97 Details 8391 ro TSL-UltraLinG 7194 ro NrT.FlaF 12 : 16 +97 Details 8294 ro TSL-UltraLinG 7269 ro NrT.FlaF 03 : 42 +97 Details 7107 ro NrT.FlaF 8419 ro TSL-UltraLinG 08 : 58 -125 Details 8322 ro TSL-UltraLinG 7182 ro NrT.FlaF 08 : 16 +97 Details 8225 ro TSL-UltraLinG 7257 ro NrT.FlaF 09 : 12 +97 Details 8128 ro TSL-UltraLinG 7332 ro NrT.FlaF 08 : 21 +97 Details 7998 ro TSL-UltraLinG 7432 ro NrT.FlaF 10 : 38 +130 Details
Yeah, and unless the admins decide the games were abuse (flaf let ultraling win) then it's perfectly within the rules. So why not just wait for the admin call before starting the same discussion again?
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On April 22 2008 06:12 CubEdIn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2008 06:07 kroko wrote:Considering that Fenix is scumback, I am pretty sure he just tryed to abuse his way to top48, I think ppl who disagree here r either Fenix himself, his friends or the type of guys who like to argue about anything. Also NrT.Ultraling went 7-1 in last moments vs his teammate/countrymate lol.. + Show Spoiler +8488 ro TSL-UltraLinG 7119 ro NrT.FlaF 15 : 12 +97 Details 8391 ro TSL-UltraLinG 7194 ro NrT.FlaF 12 : 16 +97 Details 8294 ro TSL-UltraLinG 7269 ro NrT.FlaF 03 : 42 +97 Details 7107 ro NrT.FlaF 8419 ro TSL-UltraLinG 08 : 58 -125 Details 8322 ro TSL-UltraLinG 7182 ro NrT.FlaF 08 : 16 +97 Details 8225 ro TSL-UltraLinG 7257 ro NrT.FlaF 09 : 12 +97 Details 8128 ro TSL-UltraLinG 7332 ro NrT.FlaF 08 : 21 +97 Details 7998 ro TSL-UltraLinG 7432 ro NrT.FlaF 10 : 38 +130 Details Yeah, and unless the admins decide the games were abuse (flaf let ultraling win) then it's perfectly within the rules. So why not just wait for the admin call before starting the same discussion again? Just saying... Ultraling record vs FlaF in TSL is 21-8... so 29 games vs same person,,,, Also check FlaF first two pages of matchlist, kinda intresting http://www.iccup.com/iccmatchlist/295876/1x1/page1
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It's way too easy to hide abuse in ZvZ because of the rock-paper-scissors aspect. You just 6 pool vs 12 hatch and you can't lose. You could even 9 pool vs 12 hatch or 6 pool vs 12 pool and pull it off without it looking too obvious. We need rules about how often you can play the same person (both per day and per ladder) for future TSLs.
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So he played lots of games with his friend, yeah you cant prove it was a set up or what not, you can argue what you want but here is a small fact you cant do shit about:
Ultraling's points gained from playing FlaF: 1512 Ultraling's points lost from playing FlaF: 1296
what an abusement!
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but context needs to be taken into consideration when you look at these "facts". his series of win near the end of a ladder only raises suspicion, and you cant ignore that.
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On April 22 2008 08:22 NoNameLoser wrote: So he played lots of games with his friend, yeah you cant prove it was a set up or what not, you can argue what you want but here is a small fact you cant do shit about:
Ultraling's points gained from playing FlaF: 1512 Ultraling's points lost from playing FlaF: 1296
what an abusement! I counted that he lost 900pts, but its late at night here(and I am also watching hockey while writing this) so it might be 1000 actually(I think u counted Ultraling score from FlaF matchlist?). But the deal is he played these games @ B/B+ level, which is very hard place to gain points. Earlier ranks he dont need to cheat points like this cause he can beat ppl at ranks like D+ easy, like this---> He went 5-0 vs Tsl-Prettygood and bit later 4-1 vs Prettygood
Also by quick counting I got Ultraling winning 2103pts...
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On April 22 2008 06:49 LonelyMargarita wrote: It's way too easy to hide abuse in ZvZ because of the rock-paper-scissors aspect. You just 6 pool vs 12 hatch and you can't lose. You could even 9 pool vs 12 hatch or 6 pool vs 12 pool and pull it off without it looking too obvious. We need rules about how often you can play the same person (both per day and per ladder) for future TSLs.
Yeah you're right, except that the games weren't like that at all. Most of them were mirror builds with very very close battles. At least the ones I've seen. That's why the replays should clearly show if it was just "lucky counters" or real games.
And what's so interesting about Flaf's match list? He played ZvZ with both DeathAngel and Ultraling. The winning percentages vs both players are somewhere around 60% vs DeathAngel and 40% vs Ultraling. And it's zvz for Christ's sake. Does it look suspicious? YES. Is it against the rules? NOT UNLESS THE REPLAYS SHOW IT WAS AN ABUSE. What's the point in arguing that it looks suspicious over and over again? The admins got it, and they're going to look into it.
Bleh, nevermind, I'm getting too involved. He's going to lose groups anyway. I'd rather see Testie play on.
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the fact is that Fenix cheated and should be banned from the competition. stupid kid, i always have disliked him.
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