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On June 08 2009 04:32 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:
I saw the actual game and i could see the 2 absolute best starcraft players facing each other, not giving away anything and one of them lost his nerves a bit seeing the other one was playing more solid this day. go figure now.
This is true. Some people called it a rape and called bisu bonjwa etc and it triggered some legitamate reactions.
As I said before, they have played games before and usually one side gets the early advantage and since both players are almost equally good there is almost no way out of it and the games turn out pretty onesided.
In a Bo5 today it could have gone either way, and some people don't seem to realize this when they say JD was raped and that bisu is obviously the best player, its just not true. Best way to deal with it is probably just to not say anything to those guys but its hard...
The talk about ZvP being his worst, well from his games lately I myself consider his ZvP to be his shakiest matchup, where he can either play god-mode or lose to bad players whereas his ZvT has been looking very solid all games expcept for the games vs fantasy and 2 cheesegames vs skyhigh.
And Bisu said himself that his best matchup is ZvP. So when determining which of those two players are actually the best you cannot only look at the head to head matches. However for the powerrank, which is very based on monthly performance this naturally means that bisu will be ahead.
Abit jokingly I would say Bisu is lucky that he's not a zerguser^^
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On June 08 2009 04:32 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:
has any of the "map imba" posters tried to actually lookup who played pvz on HBR?
from looking at this you couldve gotten to the conclusion, the map seems to be pretty balanced in PvZ.
and excusing his loss with "ZvP is his worst mu" seems kinda lame to me, especially when TLPD shows his vPELO is still higher than his vT and so are the peaks. i for myself give a fuck about numbers, i saw the actual game (did you? really?) and i could see the 2 absolute best starcraft players facing each other, not giving away anything and one of them lost his nerves a bit seeing the other one was playing more solid this day. go figure now.
That's why Bisu himself said the map favours protoss vs zerg a lot?
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On June 08 2009 04:32 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:
has any of the "map imba" posters tried to actually lookup who played pvz on HBR?
from looking at this you couldve gotten to the conclusion, the map seems to be pretty balanced in PvZ.
and excusing his loss with "ZvP is his worst mu" seems kinda lame to me, especially when TLPD shows his vPELO is still higher than his vT and so are the peaks. i for myself give a fuck about numbers, i saw the actual game (did you? really?) and i could see the 2 absolute best starcraft players facing each other, not giving away anything and one of them lost his nerves a bit seeing the other one was playing more solid this day. go figure now.
Okay, look the map is imbalanced, we can point out why and where. It wasn't that relevant to last night's game, but you're an idiot if you think it isn't imbalanced for protoss. Please, use your brain.
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Bisu won a hard fought game. He played like a baller, and he deserves #1. This is coming from the Chairman of the Jaedong for Bonjwa committee too  . Jaedong at anything but #2 will send me flying into a nerd-rage special though.
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On June 08 2009 05:44 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2009 04:32 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:
has any of the "map imba" posters tried to actually lookup who played pvz on HBR?
from looking at this you couldve gotten to the conclusion, the map seems to be pretty balanced in PvZ.
and excusing his loss with "ZvP is his worst mu" seems kinda lame to me, especially when TLPD shows his vPELO is still higher than his vT and so are the peaks. i for myself give a fuck about numbers, i saw the actual game (did you? really?) and i could see the 2 absolute best starcraft players facing each other, not giving away anything and one of them lost his nerves a bit seeing the other one was playing more solid this day. go figure now. Okay, look the map is imbalanced, we can point out why and where. It wasn't that relevant to last night's game, but you're an idiot if you think it isn't imbalanced for protoss. Please, use your brain.
What's been irritating me is the word "imbalanced". It's merely "Protoss-favored" and I don't think that's just semantics. It's up to 40% now ZvP and the tangible disadvantages for Zerg on the map aren't exactly like recent truly "imbalanced" maps.
You'd be hard pressed to find a map that isn't at least 60% favored in any MU. No one has been calling Bisu Bonjwa or saying this finally ends the Bisu v Jaedong conversation, at least not in jest; but there have been plenty of posters who have placed far too much emphasis on the map as an excuse for one measly loss. Far more than it deserves, quite frankly.
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Okay, I really don't care for political correctness, but I guess the PO way to say it is that HeartBreak Ridge is distinctively Protoss favored in the PvZ MU due to its strcutre.
"No one has been calling Bisu Bonjwa or saying this finally ends the Bisu v Jaedong conversation, at least not in jest; "
It's debatable.
Honestly, I still have no idea why the hell Jaedong would cancel his spire.
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On June 08 2009 06:20 Verilan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2009 05:44 Avidkeystamper wrote:On June 08 2009 04:32 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:
has any of the "map imba" posters tried to actually lookup who played pvz on HBR?
from looking at this you couldve gotten to the conclusion, the map seems to be pretty balanced in PvZ.
and excusing his loss with "ZvP is his worst mu" seems kinda lame to me, especially when TLPD shows his vPELO is still higher than his vT and so are the peaks. i for myself give a fuck about numbers, i saw the actual game (did you? really?) and i could see the 2 absolute best starcraft players facing each other, not giving away anything and one of them lost his nerves a bit seeing the other one was playing more solid this day. go figure now. Okay, look the map is imbalanced, we can point out why and where. It wasn't that relevant to last night's game, but you're an idiot if you think it isn't imbalanced for protoss. Please, use your brain. What's been irritating me is the word "imbalanced". It's merely "Protoss-favored" and I don't think that's just semantics. It's up to 40% now ZvP and the tangible disadvantages for Zerg on the map aren't exactly like recent truly "imbalanced" maps.
How is favoring one race not imbalanced? Those mean the exact same thing. Like how on Destination storm owns the bridges giving Protoss an edge, HBR's high ground leading into 4th expansion is storm heaven, not to mention the chokes. The mains are also excellent for slipping DT's in. It's an incredible map for Sair/Templar.
It's no BR but it's still quite imbalanced purely on design. The stats are just lucky Kal and Stork are sucking and that effort is awesome and July is still PvZ god. =)
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It's just a politically correct way of saying it. It's irrelevant in the long run.
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Battle Royale is "Zerg Favored."
I can be politically correct, too!
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
Honestly, Bisu has the #1 slot pretty much locked up this week, fair or not (pretty obviously fair, but whatever), and we can pretty reasonably assume that JD will come in at #2 and EffOrt at #3. So why spend so much time arguing about this?
Instead, where the hell do you put fantasy? I mean, what is wrong with this kid? This is the current #2 ranked player, and he's losing all over the place right now. He probably doesn't deserve to fall out of the PR, but he should be around 7-10 right now, and I think Violet moves up even further. Flash is a very likely #4 (This top four would be ridiculous, very very evenly matched, imo). That puts Violet at #5 to me. (I think he proved his staying power this week by beating HoGiL who is no slouch in ZvP).
After that, I have no idea who else rounds out the next five. Stork, fantasy, and Leta all deserve spots, but have proven themselves inferior to the top five recently. And then Much is playing great too. Kwanro is also deserving.
I say...
+ Show Spoiler +
EDIT: It's true, I did forget sKyHigh. But after the top five, I don't think there's any other easy calls here. Not sure who'd get dropped for him.
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On June 08 2009 08:33 tree.hugger wrote:Honestly, Bisu has the #1 slot pretty much locked up this week, fair or not (pretty obviously fair, but whatever), and we can pretty reasonably assume that JD will come in at #2 and EffOrt at #3. So why spend so much time arguing about this? Instead, where the hell do you put fantasy? I mean, what is wrong with this kid? This is the current #2 ranked player, and he's losing all over the place right now. He probably doesn't deserve to fall out of the PR, but he should be around 7-10 right now, and I think Violet moves up even further. Flash is a very likely #4 (This top four would be ridiculous, very very evenly matched, imo). That puts Violet at #5 to me. (I think he proved his staying power this week by beating HoGiL who is no slouch in ZvP). After that, I have no idea who else rounds out the next five. Stork, fantasy, and Leta all deserve spots, but have proven themselves inferior to the top five recently. And then Much is playing great too. Kwanro is also deserving. I say... + Show Spoiler +
I like it, though I'd put Much lower.
and 'bout the map imbalance fo HBR: I don't see any...
and just to think about
+ Show Spoiler +
-Bisu lost to Violet partially due position imbalance
-Bisu had diarrea the day he played fantasy
-everytime Bisu loses a game it's because the Illuminati have manipulated his mouse before...
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For HBR, it's because the small choke to your natural makes it very easy for other races to pylon wall or supply wall in maybe a bunker/cannon contain if the zerg goes 12 Hatch. For PvZ, the structure of the map makes it easy for a protoss to get their 3rd since it is in a choke and fairly close to their natural but hard for a zerg to get their 4th base since all other expansions are far away and isolated due to the weird terrain of the map.
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A pylon wall contain on a zerg? What...the heck?
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Jaedong vs Jjonga Game 3 on GOM
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On June 08 2009 08:33 tree.hugger wrote:Honestly, Bisu has the #1 slot pretty much locked up this week, fair or not (pretty obviously fair, but whatever), and we can pretty reasonably assume that JD will come in at #2 and EffOrt at #3. So why spend so much time arguing about this? Instead, where the hell do you put fantasy? I mean, what is wrong with this kid? This is the current #2 ranked player, and he's losing all over the place right now. He probably doesn't deserve to fall out of the PR, but he should be around 7-10 right now, and I think Violet moves up even further. Flash is a very likely #4 (This top four would be ridiculous, very very evenly matched, imo). That puts Violet at #5 to me. (I think he proved his staying power this week by beating HoGiL who is no slouch in ZvP). After that, I have no idea who else rounds out the next five. Stork, fantasy, and Leta all deserve spots, but have proven themselves inferior to the top five recently. And then Much is playing great too. Kwanro is also deserving. I say... + Show Spoiler +
You're forgetting SkyHigh. He has been playing phenomenally over the last month.
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Pylon the choke? You mean like Wuthering or Tau Cross? I haven't tried it myself, but I think that choke is slightly too wide to be blocked by a single pylon.
The main imbalance for HBR is the harder to take 4th, which hardly effected the game. Bisu would have done what he did, forge FE into sair/templar, secure 3rd base, and push on any map. Jaedong would have gone 3hatch spire into 5hatch hydra into muta snipe to secure 4th base on any map. Its just that Bisu outplayed Jaedong at the game, gained an advantage, and because the map is more imbalanced later on in the game, Jaedong really didn't have any shot at making a comeback.
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On June 08 2009 11:46 Sentenal wrote:
Pylon the choke? You mean like Wuthering or Tau Cross? I haven't tried it myself, but I think that choke is slightly too wide to be blocked by a single pylon.
The main imbalance for HBR is the harder to take 4th, which hardly effected the game. Bisu would have done what he did, forge FE into sair/templar, secure 3rd base, and push on any map. Jaedong would have gone 3hatch spire into 5hatch hydra into muta snipe to secure 4th base on any map. Its just that Bisu outplayed Jaedong at the game, gained an advantage, and because the map is more imbalanced later on in the game, Jaedong really didn't have any shot at making a comeback.
Lets not forget that Jaedong lost 4 overlords in the early game while killing 0 corsairs, a tremendous setback for zerg.
Also, I'm pretty sure that Stork blocked BackHo's counterattack temporarily in their game on HBR with just one pylon, although that may have just been because BackHo's army was made of comparatively larger dragoons.
EDIT: a friend of mine tells me that jaedong accidentally canceled his spire in that game.
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All I responded to is the game who said he doesn't see any imbalance in the map. You guys need to seriously read and stop assuming every comment about imbalance is an excuse for last night's game.
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Bisu beating Jaedong recently only makes them closer to a tie. Since Jaedong still has 7 wins to 6 losses to Bisu (Jaedong leading by 1 winning game).
The only thing that the game did was determine who the #1 PR and #2 for the next month will be.
I love Bisu as much as I love Jaedong but some of the Bisu fanboys on this thread makes me sick. They kept trying to argue that Bisu should remain in #1 place (before this match) when Jaedong had a better month record
But whatever, it was a good game, and I hope the new PR releases soon
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On June 08 2009 13:28 AzureEye wrote:
I love Bisu as much as I love Jaedong but some of the Bisu fanboys on this thread makes me sick. They kept trying to argue that Bisu should remain in #1 place (before this match) when Jaedong had a better month record
heh....bisu beating jaedong doesn't MAKE bisu better than jaedong, it is only evidence to SUPPORT bisu being better than jaedong.
if, after having digested the evidence from this last game, we must conclude bisu is probably better than jaedong at this exact moment, then bisu was probably better than jaedong two days ago also, before the match. and if bisu was better than jaedong before the match, i find it silly that such arguments would "make you sick."
do you see my point?
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EPT
