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I don't think JD is weak against Terran, I think it's pretty much the opposite... in the case of MnM. What I do think JD is weak against is Terran mech. Hwasin and FBH don't really like to go mech, so JD's chances should be decent unless they suddenly start using mech as well.
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Jaedong has the most PL wins, he's in 2 Leauges of 3 possible, as every other top contender, won the most recent direct matches against top ranked players liek Flash, Bisu lost to Kal and FBH. Why on Earth every one of you Flash 2nd? I admit i dislike the guy, but from an objectice viewpoint, he lost to every good toss and zerg he faced recently. 0-1 against Stork, 1-3 against Bisu, 0-2 against JD, barely pulled out a lucky win against Free. He's pwning noobs and decent players with no hesitation, that's good, but put him on 2nd place only beacause of that? Now let's be serious, he doesnt made far in the SL for quite some time, his most recent good performance is reaching GOM finals and getting 3-0ed there. Yeah, his play looks really solid. But can you say it that his recent playstyle is better than JDs? I wait some objective answers, at least as objective as i could be. Explanations, there most be some. About JD and the mechbuilds, he destroyed FLash's mech on destionation quite convincingly altough he failed against Canata, and beat himself on the ace match against Estro with his overly agressive all-in
About the other Zerg who was discussed, July, I really like him, and he's playing very well, he had the micro to use the queens on Chupung combined wiht other high tech units, and his ZvZ seems to be solid, and his ZVP was always good
I'd liek to mention Effort too, he really gave a hard time for the best zerg and protoss out there, even though he lost he seemed really strong. I thought he was overrated, but strange enough, those 2 losses really gave me the impression that he's a very good player
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On January 13 2009 21:43 Jaeden wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2009 17:19 Fontong wrote:On January 13 2009 09:59 AnOth3rDAy wrote:On January 13 2009 08:56 Fontong wrote:On January 13 2009 07:29 Jaeden wrote:On January 13 2009 06:10 Fontong wrote:On January 13 2009 03:13 AnOth3rDAy wrote:On January 13 2009 01:32 Ideas wrote:
Leta and July for PR this month IMO july? he won vs firebathero.. thats about it.. rest is "no names" and the list isn't that long. Yeah, no names like tempest, backho, GGplay, much, and anytime. Who the hell are those guys anyway? Probably they were bumped up from the B team just to play because someone from the line up was sick or smth. well they`re not that good, which one of them has a strong vZ ?  Anytime? he used to... Tempest knocked Jaedong out of the GSL, GGplay has played 4 ZvZs in PL this season and only lost the one to July. In addition to his victory over FBH, which is huge--FBH has beaten Jaedong twice this PL season already, I would say that July is pretty damn strong right now. I mean really, out of the people he has played not all of them are strong vs Zerg, but he would have picked up losses anyway if he wasn't really strong. This streak ties for his longest yet, I don't doubt he will break it with more wins soon. I said "no names ", meaning probably not big enough names to enter the PR ranking with so few games played. Please don't try to misunderstand. Ok but Btw did you forget about my original post? I never posted JULY #2 PR FOSHO!!! I only posted Strongest Terrans and Strongest Zergs at the moment. My only intention was to state my opinion on the strongest non protoss players, since they get much less attention than the protoss's -------->6 Dragons<--------@Jaeden: Cmon, be realistic here. Besides Jaedong, who is a stronger zerg than July? You can definitely make a case for Effort but really no one else is coming close to these three. The twins aren't living up the expectations. Calm sucks, ect ect. You are also forgetting that I didn't post zomg July #1 PR!!! I only posted strongest zergs and terrans as of this moment. I didn't even compare the strengths of those terran and zerg. Zerg as a race is getting raped right now. There are very few zerg players who are actually being success against ANYONE. If there is a zerg player besides Jaedong and Effort who has had a performance to match or exceed July's in the last month then please enlighten me. I didn't check every single zerg only the ones I knew already were good. yes, the zergs are pretty much gettin` raped, but, "If there is a zerg player besides Jaedong and Effort who has had a performance to match or exceed July's in the last month then please enlighten me" so you're sayin` that Effort is better than july. Well then, Effort isn`t on the PR, how can july be ?! I agree that it`s hard beein` a zerg these days, but even if u are the second-best zerg in the world, that doesn`t guarantee u a spot in the PR edit: oh and: + Show Spoiler +what happened with Baezzi ?! sorry for the off`topic but I don`t want to make a thread about it :s
Lol wtf is wrong with you and AnotherDay?
Practically zero reading comprehesion. I have never even talked about specific ranks or whether there are enough other good players to warrant July being on there or not. And now you are telling me that July does not belong there. I NEVER said he belong there lol. I talked about strongest terrans and zergs ONLY. Do I need to fly to Romania and hit you in the face with this or are you going to understand now?
Additionally I never said that I thought Effort was better than Jaedong. All I said was that don't bother choosing Effort as a zerg that is better than July because I know that such an argument is valid, even if I think that July is the better zerg.
I am facepalming so badly right now, it's like I wrote my post in chinese and all you guys did was put it through google translator.
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On January 13 2009 20:09 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2009 18:49 raga4ka wrote:On January 13 2009 17:57 disciple wrote:
how he is he not an underdog, he is in group with the current 3 best TvZers. not to mention that all 3 of them already showed that they can deal with him. No, really think about it for a sec... Can it get worse for JD, can you imagine a group that will be even more difficult for him? cause I cant Doesn't matter if it can't get any more difficult and they are arguably the 3 best TvZers , because Jaedong is the best ZvTer himself and that swings the other way around . Jaedong choosed to be in the group with FBH , and just because Bisu moved Flash to save his ass , and Hwasin was moved to play Jaedong just lowered eveyrone's chances of advancing it doesn't meen that Jaedong is the underdog . He beat Hwasin and Flash most recently and wants to get revenge on FBH this way . And Jaedong is not mini - slumping no more . he is maybe the best TvZ but his recent results in the MU are not impressive to say at least. Yes, he is out of his mini slump but he still lost a zvt vs upmagic and canata (?) and bisu saving his ass moving flash... c'mon dont start this once again
Mech and MnM are like different races , and besides Flash neither FBH or Hwasin use Mech and Jaedong beat Flash's recent mech build so it doesn't matter that he has lost 2 games to mech builds . Even if his record isn't that impressive he still can't be called the underdog in his group especialy , because he beat 2 of the players recently in PL and he himself choosed to be in the group to avenge his losses againts FBH .
You can bash on Jaedong for not having godlike results in the MU but i don't think many people remember that FBH got eliminated by Hoejja in OSL offlines . The zerg that rolled over and died plaing Hwasin in the most one sided and stupid series this whole OSL . Not to mention that July demolished him an what was a terran favourite map before Jaedong started plaing on it . But i don't see people complaining , because FBH is still one of the strongest TvZers and most of the time he rapes .
The same is with Bisu he got raped by.hero , but people still consider him the best PvZer even thought i think Kal is better ....
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On January 14 2009 01:55 Fontong wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2009 21:43 Jaeden wrote:On January 13 2009 17:19 Fontong wrote:On January 13 2009 09:59 AnOth3rDAy wrote:On January 13 2009 08:56 Fontong wrote:On January 13 2009 07:29 Jaeden wrote:On January 13 2009 06:10 Fontong wrote:On January 13 2009 03:13 AnOth3rDAy wrote:On January 13 2009 01:32 Ideas wrote:
Leta and July for PR this month IMO july? he won vs firebathero.. thats about it.. rest is "no names" and the list isn't that long. Yeah, no names like tempest, backho, GGplay, much, and anytime. Who the hell are those guys anyway? Probably they were bumped up from the B team just to play because someone from the line up was sick or smth. well they`re not that good, which one of them has a strong vZ ? Anytime? he used to... Tempest knocked Jaedong out of the GSL, GGplay has played 4 ZvZs in PL this season and only lost the one to July. In addition to his victory over FBH, which is huge--FBH has beaten Jaedong twice this PL season already, I would say that July is pretty damn strong right now. I mean really, out of the people he has played not all of them are strong vs Zerg, but he would have picked up losses anyway if he wasn't really strong. This streak ties for his longest yet, I don't doubt he will break it with more wins soon. I said "no names ", meaning probably not big enough names to enter the PR ranking with so few games played. Please don't try to misunderstand. Ok but Btw did you forget about my original post? I never posted JULY #2 PR FOSHO!!! I only posted Strongest Terrans and Strongest Zergs at the moment. My only intention was to state my opinion on the strongest non protoss players, since they get much less attention than the protoss's -------->6 Dragons<--------@Jaeden: Cmon, be realistic here. Besides Jaedong, who is a stronger zerg than July? You can definitely make a case for Effort but really no one else is coming close to these three. The twins aren't living up the expectations. Calm sucks, ect ect. You are also forgetting that I didn't post zomg July #1 PR!!! I only posted strongest zergs and terrans as of this moment. I didn't even compare the strengths of those terran and zerg. Zerg as a race is getting raped right now. There are very few zerg players who are actually being success against ANYONE. If there is a zerg player besides Jaedong and Effort who has had a performance to match or exceed July's in the last month then please enlighten me. I didn't check every single zerg only the ones I knew already were good. yes, the zergs are pretty much gettin` raped, but, "If there is a zerg player besides Jaedong and Effort who has had a performance to match or exceed July's in the last month then please enlighten me" so you're sayin` that Effort is better than july. Well then, Effort isn`t on the PR, how can july be ?! I agree that it`s hard beein` a zerg these days, but even if u are the second-best zerg in the world, that doesn`t guarantee u a spot in the PR edit: oh and: + Show Spoiler +what happened with Baezzi ?! sorry for the off`topic but I don`t want to make a thread about it :s Lol wtf is wrong with you and AnotherDay? Practically zero reading comprehesion. I have never even talked about specific ranks or whether there are enough other good players to warrant July being on there or not. And now you are telling me that July does not belong there. I NEVER said he belong there lol. I talked about strongest terrans and zergs ONLY. Do I need to fly to Romania and hit you in the face with this or are you going to understand now? Additionally I never said that I thought Effort was better than Jaedong. All I said was that don't bother choosing Effort as a zerg that is better than July because I know that such an argument is valid, even if I think that July is the better zerg. I am facepalming so badly right now, it's like I wrote my post in chinese and all you guys did was put it through google translator.
It seemed like you defended Idea's statement that july should be on PR for this month, thats all.
You obviously thought that when i said "no names" i meant newbs. I didn't, i meant names that isnt enough to reach PR.
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On January 14 2009 01:55 Fontong wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2009 21:43 Jaeden wrote:On January 13 2009 17:19 Fontong wrote:On January 13 2009 09:59 AnOth3rDAy wrote:On January 13 2009 08:56 Fontong wrote:On January 13 2009 07:29 Jaeden wrote:On January 13 2009 06:10 Fontong wrote:On January 13 2009 03:13 AnOth3rDAy wrote:On January 13 2009 01:32 Ideas wrote:
Leta and July for PR this month IMO july? he won vs firebathero.. thats about it.. rest is "no names" and the list isn't that long. Yeah, no names like tempest, backho, GGplay, much, and anytime. Who the hell are those guys anyway? Probably they were bumped up from the B team just to play because someone from the line up was sick or smth. well they`re not that good, which one of them has a strong vZ ? Anytime? he used to... Tempest knocked Jaedong out of the GSL, GGplay has played 4 ZvZs in PL this season and only lost the one to July. In addition to his victory over FBH, which is huge--FBH has beaten Jaedong twice this PL season already, I would say that July is pretty damn strong right now. I mean really, out of the people he has played not all of them are strong vs Zerg, but he would have picked up losses anyway if he wasn't really strong. This streak ties for his longest yet, I don't doubt he will break it with more wins soon. I said "no names ", meaning probably not big enough names to enter the PR ranking with so few games played. Please don't try to misunderstand. Ok but Btw did you forget about my original post? I never posted JULY #2 PR FOSHO!!! I only posted Strongest Terrans and Strongest Zergs at the moment. My only intention was to state my opinion on the strongest non protoss players, since they get much less attention than the protoss's -------->6 Dragons<--------@Jaeden: Cmon, be realistic here. Besides Jaedong, who is a stronger zerg than July? You can definitely make a case for Effort but really no one else is coming close to these three. The twins aren't living up the expectations. Calm sucks, ect ect. You are also forgetting that I didn't post zomg July #1 PR!!! I only posted strongest zergs and terrans as of this moment. I didn't even compare the strengths of those terran and zerg. Zerg as a race is getting raped right now. There are very few zerg players who are actually being success against ANYONE. If there is a zerg player besides Jaedong and Effort who has had a performance to match or exceed July's in the last month then please enlighten me. I didn't check every single zerg only the ones I knew already were good. yes, the zergs are pretty much gettin` raped, but, "If there is a zerg player besides Jaedong and Effort who has had a performance to match or exceed July's in the last month then please enlighten me" so you're sayin` that Effort is better than july. Well then, Effort isn`t on the PR, how can july be ?! I agree that it`s hard beein` a zerg these days, but even if u are the second-best zerg in the world, that doesn`t guarantee u a spot in the PR edit: oh and: + Show Spoiler +what happened with Baezzi ?! sorry for the off`topic but I don`t want to make a thread about it :s Lol wtf is wrong with you and AnotherDay? Practically zero reading comprehesion. I have never even talked about specific ranks or whether there are enough other good players to warrant July being on there or not. And now you are telling me that July does not belong there. I NEVER said he belong there lol. I talked about strongest terrans and zergs ONLY. Do I need to fly to Romania and hit you in the face with this or are you going to understand now? Additionally I never said that I thought Effort was better than Jaedong. All I said was that don't bother choosing Effort as a zerg that is better than July because I know that such an argument is valid, even if I think that July is the better zerg. I am facepalming so badly right now, it's like I wrote my post in chinese and all you guys did was put it through google translator.
chill dude, and look:
Idea said that July belongs in the PR; anotherday didn`t agree with him sayin` that "July only beat noobs beside FBH", and u contradict him by saying:"tempest and GGplay aren`t noobs, and a whole lot of other things like tempest beat jd"
sure, we all know that all pro gamers aren`t noobs, that`s why they are progamers, however, imo GGplay and tempest aren`t good vZ, and I will continue to disagree with that). The thing that bothered me is: "tempest beat Jaedong"...that doesn`t mean that he is good vZ, and I have already made a post about that
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I dont want to be rude, but we slowly enter the second half of he month. When will the PR be released?
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9070 Posts
On January 14 2009 02:14 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2009 20:09 disciple wrote:On January 13 2009 18:49 raga4ka wrote:On January 13 2009 17:57 disciple wrote:
how he is he not an underdog, he is in group with the current 3 best TvZers. not to mention that all 3 of them already showed that they can deal with him. No, really think about it for a sec... Can it get worse for JD, can you imagine a group that will be even more difficult for him? cause I cant Doesn't matter if it can't get any more difficult and they are arguably the 3 best TvZers , because Jaedong is the best ZvTer himself and that swings the other way around . Jaedong choosed to be in the group with FBH , and just because Bisu moved Flash to save his ass , and Hwasin was moved to play Jaedong just lowered eveyrone's chances of advancing it doesn't meen that Jaedong is the underdog . He beat Hwasin and Flash most recently and wants to get revenge on FBH this way . And Jaedong is not mini - slumping no more . he is maybe the best TvZ but his recent results in the MU are not impressive to say at least. Yes, he is out of his mini slump but he still lost a zvt vs upmagic and canata (?) and bisu saving his ass moving flash... c'mon dont start this once again Mech and MnM are like different races , and besides Flash neither FBH or Hwasin use Mech and Jaedong beat Flash's recent mech build so it doesn't matter that he has lost 2 games to mech builds . Even if his record isn't that impressive he still can't be called the underdog in his group especialy , because he beat 2 of the players recently in PL and he himself choosed to be in the group to avenge his losses againts FBH . You can bash on Jaedong for not having godlike results in the MU but i don't think many people remember that FBH got eliminated by Hoejja in OSL offlines . The zerg that rolled over and died plaing Hwasin in the most one sided and stupid series this whole OSL . Not to mention that July demolished him an what was a terran favourite map before Jaedong started plaing on it . But i don't see people complaining , because FBH is still one of the strongest TvZers and most of the time he rapes . The same is with Bisu he got raped by.hero , but people still consider him the best PvZer even thought i think Kal is better ....
loool... enough pls
You have a short memory about Flash's mech, because he actually used sucha build, actually vs... JD and he won hmmm, nothing in your post makes sense to me seriously, sorry its maybe only me
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On January 14 2009 00:31 RivetHead wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2009 16:49 AzureEye wrote:On January 13 2009 08:21 disciple wrote:On January 13 2009 07:23 MoRe_mInErAls wrote:
Can we move Jaedong up and kick Sea off already? It's looking horribly out of date. Jaedong has consistently been one of the top 5 players in the world for over a year and this Power Rank only shows bias for two weeks of his unlucky play.
I didn't believe anyone on the list were favourites over him 1 month ago and I don't believe it now Then you are a true fanboy! Just like me when bisu was slumping I couldnt except the fact that others were performing better than him because his mechanics his game sense, timings, everything was OK but he kept on dropping games anyway... And I might be wrong but JD is a huge underdog in his MSL group. IMO it will be a really big deal and a strong statement if he somehow manages to advance Lets be realistic here, Jaedong might have been minislumping a month ago but his #8 spot on his PR meant that the 7 others above him performed better that month, than to conclude that Jaedong is the 8th best player in the world last month. Well, his current MSL group, it contains Flash, Firebathero, and Hwasin. It contains all T players, which JD seems to have trouble with, whether its because of map, or the imbalancies of the game, or the skill. And also, there is Flash in there so yeah :D Jaedong is clearly still in the top 3 best players of the world no matter how bad he performs in a month. This is something that I don't like about PR, the way the ranking spots movement is way too fickle, if the best player in the world for a year plays bad in April, he's still the best fucking player in May unless we can clearly see that he loses to players he normally rapes, and his players are clearly sloppy, etc. The best players should definately have the benefit of the doubt. The reason why #1 players drop down to #5 or below nowadays is that people here complain too much about how much a player loses in a month, and believe that the #1 person isn't number 1 material anymore because he lost x games in y month. I think that PR should strictly be about who are the top 10 players in the progaming scene in that month, instead of which top 10 players performed the best in that month. Its really becoming the latter, and that makes PR worthless imo. Having yet another ranking thats a rather straight analysis of game stats for players sounds both pointless and boring. What I get from what you are saying is that players like jaedong, flash, or bisu (the top 3 players in the world for the past couple of years) should automatically be ranked in the top 3 no matter what happens simply because they are so good? What about just this last season when flash was knocked out early of all the starleagues (excetpt gom, which has only recently gotten to the quarterfinals), should have he been ranked top 3 that entire time even though he wasn't the one winning leagues, or even getting close? Some may think that yes, he should, but I am definitely not one of them. What if you basically figured out the top 10 players for the whole year, and month after month of power rankings it was same 10 people every time. What the hell new would you say? It would be so boring.
Boring? Thats your opinion. Pointless? Actually its the opposite. I don't mind seeing the best 3 players (Bisu, Jaedong, Flash) on the PR for over 30 days. Its actually worse to try to remember all the names of these new players that popping up in the PR just because they had a lucky month. They should remain top 3 until there is a big BOx games that can truly undermine their ability, for example, an OSL or MSL final that they lose in.
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On January 13 2009 19:02 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2009 16:49 AzureEye wrote:On January 13 2009 08:21 disciple wrote:On January 13 2009 07:23 MoRe_mInErAls wrote:
Can we move Jaedong up and kick Sea off already? It's looking horribly out of date. Jaedong has consistently been one of the top 5 players in the world for over a year and this Power Rank only shows bias for two weeks of his unlucky play.
I didn't believe anyone on the list were favourites over him 1 month ago and I don't believe it now Then you are a true fanboy! Just like me when bisu was slumping I couldnt except the fact that others were performing better than him because his mechanics his game sense, timings, everything was OK but he kept on dropping games anyway... And I might be wrong but JD is a huge underdog in his MSL group. IMO it will be a really big deal and a strong statement if he somehow manages to advance Lets be realistic here, Jaedong might have been minislumping a month ago but his #8 spot on his PR meant that the 7 others above him performed better that month, than to conclude that Jaedong is the 8th best player in the world last month. Well, his current MSL group, it contains Flash, Firebathero, and Hwasin. It contains all T players, which JD seems to have trouble with, whether its because of map, or the imbalancies of the game, or the skill. And also, there is Flash in there so yeah :D Jaedong is clearly still in the top 3 best players of the world no matter how bad he performs in a month. This is something that I don't like about PR, the way the ranking spots movement is way too fickle, if the best player in the world for a year plays bad in April, he's still the best fucking player in May unless we can clearly see that he loses to players he normally rapes, and his players are clearly sloppy, etc. The best players should definately have the benefit of the doubt. The reason why #1 players drop down to #5 or below nowadays is that people here complain too much about how much a player loses in a month, and believe that the #1 person isn't number 1 material anymore because he lost x games in y month. I think that PR should strictly be about who are the top 10 players in the progaming scene in that month, instead of which top 10 players performed the best in that month. Its really becoming the latter, and that makes PR worthless imo. Just curious how you determine this. What level of Starcraft knowledge, hours of watching VODs, and understanding the circumstances behind each game does it take to make such a good judgment? Btw, just to let you know, there is a long term performance indicator, which is the KESPA. There is a moving win-loss pure performance indicator, which is the ELO rating. Then there is the opinion of a single Sea[Shield] fan who ranks them based on how he sees their plays, which is the TL Power Ranking.  It seems to me you should just refer to the Kespa ranking, because that's probably what you're looking for.
Well, if we specifically speak about Jaedong himself, KESPA does him no justice because there was absolutely no reason to not sanction the first season of GOM which he won. This plus the fact that KESPA is usually slow and outdated on the best players is why I choose to not follow KESPA. ELO rating does not factor in what conditions and how the games went, such as if the player got cheesed or not, and if it was a one sided game or not.
I truly think a starcraft veteran like FS with agreement with other starcraft veterans make pretty damn good judgements when it comes to players strength. So I don't see why PR can't depend on them. (After all, this IS their site)
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On January 14 2009 05:20 AzureEye wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2009 19:02 baubo wrote:On January 13 2009 16:49 AzureEye wrote:On January 13 2009 08:21 disciple wrote:On January 13 2009 07:23 MoRe_mInErAls wrote:
Can we move Jaedong up and kick Sea off already? It's looking horribly out of date. Jaedong has consistently been one of the top 5 players in the world for over a year and this Power Rank only shows bias for two weeks of his unlucky play.
I didn't believe anyone on the list were favourites over him 1 month ago and I don't believe it now Then you are a true fanboy! Just like me when bisu was slumping I couldnt except the fact that others were performing better than him because his mechanics his game sense, timings, everything was OK but he kept on dropping games anyway... And I might be wrong but JD is a huge underdog in his MSL group. IMO it will be a really big deal and a strong statement if he somehow manages to advance Lets be realistic here, Jaedong might have been minislumping a month ago but his #8 spot on his PR meant that the 7 others above him performed better that month, than to conclude that Jaedong is the 8th best player in the world last month. Well, his current MSL group, it contains Flash, Firebathero, and Hwasin. It contains all T players, which JD seems to have trouble with, whether its because of map, or the imbalancies of the game, or the skill. And also, there is Flash in there so yeah :D Jaedong is clearly still in the top 3 best players of the world no matter how bad he performs in a month. This is something that I don't like about PR, the way the ranking spots movement is way too fickle, if the best player in the world for a year plays bad in April, he's still the best fucking player in May unless we can clearly see that he loses to players he normally rapes, and his players are clearly sloppy, etc. The best players should definately have the benefit of the doubt. The reason why #1 players drop down to #5 or below nowadays is that people here complain too much about how much a player loses in a month, and believe that the #1 person isn't number 1 material anymore because he lost x games in y month. I think that PR should strictly be about who are the top 10 players in the progaming scene in that month, instead of which top 10 players performed the best in that month. Its really becoming the latter, and that makes PR worthless imo. Just curious how you determine this. What level of Starcraft knowledge, hours of watching VODs, and understanding the circumstances behind each game does it take to make such a good judgment? Btw, just to let you know, there is a long term performance indicator, which is the KESPA. There is a moving win-loss pure performance indicator, which is the ELO rating. Then there is the opinion of a single Sea[Shield] fan who ranks them based on how he sees their plays, which is the TL Power Ranking. It seems to me you should just refer to the Kespa ranking, because that's probably what you're looking for. Well, if we specifically speak about Jaedong himself, KESPA does him no justice because there was absolutely no reason to not sanction the first season of GOM which he won. This plus the fact that KESPA is usually slow and outdated on the best players is why I choose to not follow KESPA. ELO rating does not factor in what conditions and how the games went, such as if the player got cheesed or not, and if it was a one sided game or not. I truly think a starcraft veteran like FS with agreement with other starcraft veterans make pretty damn good judgements when it comes to players strength. So I don't see why PR can't depend on them. (After all, this IS their site)
Kespa had good reasons to not sanction the GOM1. SKT, OGN, MBC, ACE and if i remember correctly CJ werent involved, so it was 7 teams from 12, now it's 10 teams of 12 so it cannot be ignored
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On January 14 2009 03:57 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2009 02:14 raga4ka wrote:On January 13 2009 20:09 disciple wrote:On January 13 2009 18:49 raga4ka wrote:On January 13 2009 17:57 disciple wrote:
how he is he not an underdog, he is in group with the current 3 best TvZers. not to mention that all 3 of them already showed that they can deal with him. No, really think about it for a sec... Can it get worse for JD, can you imagine a group that will be even more difficult for him? cause I cant Doesn't matter if it can't get any more difficult and they are arguably the 3 best TvZers , because Jaedong is the best ZvTer himself and that swings the other way around . Jaedong choosed to be in the group with FBH , and just because Bisu moved Flash to save his ass , and Hwasin was moved to play Jaedong just lowered eveyrone's chances of advancing it doesn't meen that Jaedong is the underdog . He beat Hwasin and Flash most recently and wants to get revenge on FBH this way . And Jaedong is not mini - slumping no more . he is maybe the best TvZ but his recent results in the MU are not impressive to say at least. Yes, he is out of his mini slump but he still lost a zvt vs upmagic and canata (?) and bisu saving his ass moving flash... c'mon dont start this once again Mech and MnM are like different races , and besides Flash neither FBH or Hwasin use Mech and Jaedong beat Flash's recent mech build so it doesn't matter that he has lost 2 games to mech builds . Even if his record isn't that impressive he still can't be called the underdog in his group especialy , because he beat 2 of the players recently in PL and he himself choosed to be in the group to avenge his losses againts FBH . You can bash on Jaedong for not having godlike results in the MU but i don't think many people remember that FBH got eliminated by Hoejja in OSL offlines . The zerg that rolled over and died plaing Hwasin in the most one sided and stupid series this whole OSL . Not to mention that July demolished him an what was a terran favourite map before Jaedong started plaing on it . But i don't see people complaining , because FBH is still one of the strongest TvZers and most of the time he rapes . The same is with Bisu he got raped by.hero , but people still consider him the best PvZer even thought i think Kal is better .... loool... enough pls You have a short memory about Flash's mech, because he actually used sucha build, actually vs... JD and he won hmmm, nothing in your post makes sense to me seriously, sorry its maybe only me Wait, you're talking about the Katrina game in February? Yeah, 11 months ago Flash was probably #1 in the world. Sadly, that was 11 months ago, so I fail to see what you mean.
Recently, though, Jaedong beat Flash's mech with a 2 hatch hydra -> 2 hatch muta build that made Flash look silly.
Basically he meant that mnm and mech are like different races. JD is good vs mnm and not-so-good vs mech. He gave his reasoning to why JD shouldn't be considered an underdog. He also gave examples of other top players getting beat but still being considered a top player.
Basically, everyone loses. The top players only have a win% of like 68%, meaning that they only win about 2/3 games.
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On January 13 2009 17:57 disciple wrote:he is maybe the best TvZ but his recent results in the MU are not impressive to say at least. Yes, he is out of his mini slump but he still lost a zvt vs upmagic and canata (?) and bisu saving his ass moving flash... c'mon dont start this once again
Are you serious? Jaedong is currently 10-6 over Flash and 5-4 over Hwasin. Only person Jaedong would be underdog to is FBH because FBH beat him many times recently. Upmagic didn't beat JD in a straight up game, he went vulture, and mech, while Jaedong went all-in lings which failed. Canata didn't play JD straight up and went mech, and abused mines (Terran overpowered unit) on destination (which is a Terran map because of narrow bridge and availabilty of mech) Just because theses players were afraid to play JD straight up and abused Terran advantage in TvZ doesn't mean that JD's recent results in ZvT are not impressive.
The only two people coming out of the group would be FBH and Jaedong imo. Or Flash and Jaedong if JD can manage to use his new technique on FBH.
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On January 14 2009 03:13 AnOth3rDAy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2009 01:55 Fontong wrote:On January 13 2009 21:43 Jaeden wrote:On January 13 2009 17:19 Fontong wrote:On January 13 2009 09:59 AnOth3rDAy wrote:On January 13 2009 08:56 Fontong wrote:On January 13 2009 07:29 Jaeden wrote:On January 13 2009 06:10 Fontong wrote:On January 13 2009 03:13 AnOth3rDAy wrote:On January 13 2009 01:32 Ideas wrote:
Leta and July for PR this month IMO july? he won vs firebathero.. thats about it.. rest is "no names" and the list isn't that long. Yeah, no names like tempest, backho, GGplay, much, and anytime. Who the hell are those guys anyway? Probably they were bumped up from the B team just to play because someone from the line up was sick or smth. well they`re not that good, which one of them has a strong vZ ? Anytime? he used to... Tempest knocked Jaedong out of the GSL, GGplay has played 4 ZvZs in PL this season and only lost the one to July. In addition to his victory over FBH, which is huge--FBH has beaten Jaedong twice this PL season already, I would say that July is pretty damn strong right now. I mean really, out of the people he has played not all of them are strong vs Zerg, but he would have picked up losses anyway if he wasn't really strong. This streak ties for his longest yet, I don't doubt he will break it with more wins soon. I said "no names ", meaning probably not big enough names to enter the PR ranking with so few games played. Please don't try to misunderstand. Ok but Btw did you forget about my original post? I never posted JULY #2 PR FOSHO!!! I only posted Strongest Terrans and Strongest Zergs at the moment. My only intention was to state my opinion on the strongest non protoss players, since they get much less attention than the protoss's -------->6 Dragons<--------@Jaeden: Cmon, be realistic here. Besides Jaedong, who is a stronger zerg than July? You can definitely make a case for Effort but really no one else is coming close to these three. The twins aren't living up the expectations. Calm sucks, ect ect. You are also forgetting that I didn't post zomg July #1 PR!!! I only posted strongest zergs and terrans as of this moment. I didn't even compare the strengths of those terran and zerg. Zerg as a race is getting raped right now. There are very few zerg players who are actually being success against ANYONE. If there is a zerg player besides Jaedong and Effort who has had a performance to match or exceed July's in the last month then please enlighten me. I didn't check every single zerg only the ones I knew already were good. yes, the zergs are pretty much gettin` raped, but, "If there is a zerg player besides Jaedong and Effort who has had a performance to match or exceed July's in the last month then please enlighten me" so you're sayin` that Effort is better than july. Well then, Effort isn`t on the PR, how can july be ?! I agree that it`s hard beein` a zerg these days, but even if u are the second-best zerg in the world, that doesn`t guarantee u a spot in the PR edit: oh and: + Show Spoiler +what happened with Baezzi ?! sorry for the off`topic but I don`t want to make a thread about it :s Lol wtf is wrong with you and AnotherDay? Practically zero reading comprehesion. I have never even talked about specific ranks or whether there are enough other good players to warrant July being on there or not. And now you are telling me that July does not belong there. I NEVER said he belong there lol. I talked about strongest terrans and zergs ONLY. Do I need to fly to Romania and hit you in the face with this or are you going to understand now? Additionally I never said that I thought Effort was better than Jaedong. All I said was that don't bother choosing Effort as a zerg that is better than July because I know that such an argument is valid, even if I think that July is the better zerg. I am facepalming so badly right now, it's like I wrote my post in chinese and all you guys did was put it through google translator. It seemed like you defended Idea's statement that july should be on PR for this month, thats all. You obviously thought that when i said "no names" i meant newbs. I didn't, i meant names that isnt enough to reach PR.
Ah, ok. I didn't even read that little one liner that Ideas put in about Julyzerg. My posts about July have nothing to do with PR, I haven't even put into perspective all the protoss terrans and zergs together yet so I'm not giving my opinion on that.
Considering that existence of people like Bisu, Kal, Jangbi, Stork, and Best (free hasn't been doing as well as the other 5 imo) in addition to Jaedong, Flash, and Leta, there are very few spots for anyone else. It would be hard for July to make in on imo.
k, just a misunderstanding then.
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Sorry to interrupt you boys, but when do we have another PR? Its kinda time...2 weeks ago!...
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9070 Posts
On January 14 2009 05:23 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2009 03:57 disciple wrote:On January 14 2009 02:14 raga4ka wrote:On January 13 2009 20:09 disciple wrote:On January 13 2009 18:49 raga4ka wrote:On January 13 2009 17:57 disciple wrote:
how he is he not an underdog, he is in group with the current 3 best TvZers. not to mention that all 3 of them already showed that they can deal with him. No, really think about it for a sec... Can it get worse for JD, can you imagine a group that will be even more difficult for him? cause I cant Doesn't matter if it can't get any more difficult and they are arguably the 3 best TvZers , because Jaedong is the best ZvTer himself and that swings the other way around . Jaedong choosed to be in the group with FBH , and just because Bisu moved Flash to save his ass , and Hwasin was moved to play Jaedong just lowered eveyrone's chances of advancing it doesn't meen that Jaedong is the underdog . He beat Hwasin and Flash most recently and wants to get revenge on FBH this way . And Jaedong is not mini - slumping no more . he is maybe the best TvZ but his recent results in the MU are not impressive to say at least. Yes, he is out of his mini slump but he still lost a zvt vs upmagic and canata (?) and bisu saving his ass moving flash... c'mon dont start this once again Mech and MnM are like different races , and besides Flash neither FBH or Hwasin use Mech and Jaedong beat Flash's recent mech build so it doesn't matter that he has lost 2 games to mech builds . Even if his record isn't that impressive he still can't be called the underdog in his group especialy , because he beat 2 of the players recently in PL and he himself choosed to be in the group to avenge his losses againts FBH . You can bash on Jaedong for not having godlike results in the MU but i don't think many people remember that FBH got eliminated by Hoejja in OSL offlines . The zerg that rolled over and died plaing Hwasin in the most one sided and stupid series this whole OSL . Not to mention that July demolished him an what was a terran favourite map before Jaedong started plaing on it . But i don't see people complaining , because FBH is still one of the strongest TvZers and most of the time he rapes . The same is with Bisu he got raped by.hero , but people still consider him the best PvZer even thought i think Kal is better .... loool... enough pls You have a short memory about Flash's mech, because he actually used sucha build, actually vs... JD and he won hmmm, nothing in your post makes sense to me seriously, sorry its maybe only me Wait, you're talking about the Katrina game in February? Yeah, 11 months ago Flash was probably #1 in the world. Sadly, that was 11 months ago, so I fail to see what you mean. Recently, though, Jaedong beat Flash's mech with a 2 hatch hydra -> 2 hatch muta build that made Flash look silly. Basically he meant that mnm and mech are like different races. JD is good vs mnm and not-so-good vs mech. He gave his reasoning to why JD shouldn't be considered an underdog. He also gave examples of other top players getting beat but still being considered a top player. Basically, everyone loses. The top players only have a win% of like 68%, meaning that they only win about 2/3 games.
my point is all the 3 terran guys may come up with mech builds vs JD... scounting info is not everything. Remember what iris did to savior some time ago, he basically lifted his hole ZvT just for a week or so. If you can guys notice that JD is weaker to mech build then all hwasin fbh and flash can, they will prepare smth for him I have no doubt about that. Especially FBH
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last PR was posted the 14th, calm down
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On January 14 2009 03:57 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2009 02:14 raga4ka wrote:On January 13 2009 20:09 disciple wrote:On January 13 2009 18:49 raga4ka wrote:On January 13 2009 17:57 disciple wrote:
how he is he not an underdog, he is in group with the current 3 best TvZers. not to mention that all 3 of them already showed that they can deal with him. No, really think about it for a sec... Can it get worse for JD, can you imagine a group that will be even more difficult for him? cause I cant Doesn't matter if it can't get any more difficult and they are arguably the 3 best TvZers , because Jaedong is the best ZvTer himself and that swings the other way around . Jaedong choosed to be in the group with FBH , and just because Bisu moved Flash to save his ass , and Hwasin was moved to play Jaedong just lowered eveyrone's chances of advancing it doesn't meen that Jaedong is the underdog . He beat Hwasin and Flash most recently and wants to get revenge on FBH this way . And Jaedong is not mini - slumping no more . he is maybe the best TvZ but his recent results in the MU are not impressive to say at least. Yes, he is out of his mini slump but he still lost a zvt vs upmagic and canata (?) and bisu saving his ass moving flash... c'mon dont start this once again Mech and MnM are like different races , and besides Flash neither FBH or Hwasin use Mech and Jaedong beat Flash's recent mech build so it doesn't matter that he has lost 2 games to mech builds . Even if his record isn't that impressive he still can't be called the underdog in his group especialy , because he beat 2 of the players recently in PL and he himself choosed to be in the group to avenge his losses againts FBH . You can bash on Jaedong for not having godlike results in the MU but i don't think many people remember that FBH got eliminated by Hoejja in OSL offlines . The zerg that rolled over and died plaing Hwasin in the most one sided and stupid series this whole OSL . Not to mention that July demolished him an what was a terran favourite map before Jaedong started plaing on it . But i don't see people complaining , because FBH is still one of the strongest TvZers and most of the time he rapes . The same is with Bisu he got raped by.hero , but people still consider him the best PvZer even thought i think Kal is better .... loool... enough pls You have a short memory about Flash's mech, because he actually used sucha build, actually vs... JD and he won hmmm, nothing in your post makes sense to me seriously, sorry its maybe only me
Last time Flash went mech vs Jaedong he got raped i don't care about other stuff happening years ago .
This are examples that i gave when you said that Jaedong is the underdog , because he lost 2 ZvTs recently .
"lost a zvt vs upmagic and canata "
Bisu lost to by.hero Bo 3 , but that doesn't make him the underdog in his group same with Jaedong . You can'y say that he is an underdog based on 2 games he lost .
Did you slept past the matches where he raped Flash's mech attempt , humiliated Fantasy with queens and also beat Hwasin , Skyhigh and other terrans ?
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On January 14 2009 06:21 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2009 05:23 Shikyo wrote:On January 14 2009 03:57 disciple wrote:On January 14 2009 02:14 raga4ka wrote:On January 13 2009 20:09 disciple wrote:On January 13 2009 18:49 raga4ka wrote:On January 13 2009 17:57 disciple wrote:
how he is he not an underdog, he is in group with the current 3 best TvZers. not to mention that all 3 of them already showed that they can deal with him. No, really think about it for a sec... Can it get worse for JD, can you imagine a group that will be even more difficult for him? cause I cant Doesn't matter if it can't get any more difficult and they are arguably the 3 best TvZers , because Jaedong is the best ZvTer himself and that swings the other way around . Jaedong choosed to be in the group with FBH , and just because Bisu moved Flash to save his ass , and Hwasin was moved to play Jaedong just lowered eveyrone's chances of advancing it doesn't meen that Jaedong is the underdog . He beat Hwasin and Flash most recently and wants to get revenge on FBH this way . And Jaedong is not mini - slumping no more . he is maybe the best TvZ but his recent results in the MU are not impressive to say at least. Yes, he is out of his mini slump but he still lost a zvt vs upmagic and canata (?) and bisu saving his ass moving flash... c'mon dont start this once again Mech and MnM are like different races , and besides Flash neither FBH or Hwasin use Mech and Jaedong beat Flash's recent mech build so it doesn't matter that he has lost 2 games to mech builds . Even if his record isn't that impressive he still can't be called the underdog in his group especialy , because he beat 2 of the players recently in PL and he himself choosed to be in the group to avenge his losses againts FBH . You can bash on Jaedong for not having godlike results in the MU but i don't think many people remember that FBH got eliminated by Hoejja in OSL offlines . The zerg that rolled over and died plaing Hwasin in the most one sided and stupid series this whole OSL . Not to mention that July demolished him an what was a terran favourite map before Jaedong started plaing on it . But i don't see people complaining , because FBH is still one of the strongest TvZers and most of the time he rapes . The same is with Bisu he got raped by.hero , but people still consider him the best PvZer even thought i think Kal is better .... loool... enough pls You have a short memory about Flash's mech, because he actually used sucha build, actually vs... JD and he won hmmm, nothing in your post makes sense to me seriously, sorry its maybe only me Wait, you're talking about the Katrina game in February? Yeah, 11 months ago Flash was probably #1 in the world. Sadly, that was 11 months ago, so I fail to see what you mean. Recently, though, Jaedong beat Flash's mech with a 2 hatch hydra -> 2 hatch muta build that made Flash look silly. Basically he meant that mnm and mech are like different races. JD is good vs mnm and not-so-good vs mech. He gave his reasoning to why JD shouldn't be considered an underdog. He also gave examples of other top players getting beat but still being considered a top player. Basically, everyone loses. The top players only have a win% of like 68%, meaning that they only win about 2/3 games. my point is all the 3 terran guys may come up with mech builds vs JD... scounting info is not everything. Remember what iris did to savior some time ago, he basically lifted his hole ZvT just for a week or so. If you can guys notice that JD is weaker to mech build then all hwasin fbh and flash can, they will prepare smth for him I have no doubt about that. Especially FBH
Of course i've noticed that Jaedong is weaker vs mech , he doesn't practise versus it as much as MnM and it's not that Jaedong is weak vs mech its zerg in general . But i'm sure that if they know that it's 100 % coming from the start they will do much better versus it .
When mech becomes a regular strategy i'm pretty sure that zergs won't struggle that much .
I'm gonna bet an Yarnc to be the first to demolish Upmagic's mech build if he tries it .
And i don't think that Hwasin or FBH will go mech , because they feel quite confidant with their MnM play . I doubt they'll risk to go mech , because it can backfire easily . Maybe on specific maps they'll try it , but no one knows ...
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guys..no point in arguing with disciple, he just wants attention by stirring things up
he doesn't even respond back to the strong posts that are directed toward his argument, he just picks out the weak ones
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EPT
