EPTHow has the hellion/hellbat change affected the Terran vs…
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TheBloodyDwarf
Finland7524 Posts
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Qwertify
United States2531 Posts
For the poll I must vote that the match-up is balanced, for in practical purposes it is. | ||
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
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TronJovolta
United States323 Posts
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TronJovolta
United States323 Posts
I think it's mostly because bio is just so damn figured out and is continually getting weaker, not necessarily because of the true balance. | ||
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yido
United States350 Posts
TvZ is fairly balanced in the highest level of play, but still favors Zerg slightly on most maps and even more in the late game stage. Just because Taeja won HSC and DHack doesn't mean Zergs need a buff in ZvT. | ||
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NKexquisite
United States911 Posts
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SpunXtain20
Australia554 Posts
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xxxKagexxx
France43 Posts
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KadaverBB
Germany25649 Posts
Protoss on the other hand!!!!! ... | ||
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TAMinator
Australia2706 Posts
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Fus
Sweden1112 Posts
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JacobShock
Denmark2485 Posts
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Rikudou
Germany151 Posts
all about hellbat timings and 2base builds, wich decides the game early on. the games end with a zerg with like 20 drones or a terran with late upgrades and late stim etc that's it actually.. this reminds me more and more to ZvP and not the cool ZvT that we know | ||
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diverzee
Sweden992 Posts
If I understood correctly the idea behind the hellbat change was to make it more difficult for zerg to reach that advantageous position in the late game, but instead of doing that it just seems to either outright kill the zerg immediately, or do nothing and zerg still reaches the late game with all bases and tech necessary. | ||
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mykillandjello
United States29 Posts
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
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nobot87
United States23 Posts
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MtlGuitarist97
United States1539 Posts
Terran is heavily favored in the short time that Hellbats can do any damage. After that point, Terran is slightly favored until ~25 mutalisks. After that, Terran is even or behind until 3-3. After that, Terran is ahead until Zerg gets out hive tech. If the Zerg manages to not die before they get out ultra/infestor or whatever counters the Terran's composition, they usually will win. Certain maps are more skewed toward Terran than other maps (King Sejong comes to mind), but on the whole the matchup is *decently* balanced from an asymmetric standpoint. However, I'd like to see many more changes to the matchup in LotV and will probably not return if it doesn't get a major fundamental reworking. | ||
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Survivor61316
United States470 Posts
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Destructicon
4713 Posts
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JacobShock
Denmark2485 Posts
On June 20 2014 05:09 Survivor61316 wrote: Well all I know is that I spent 4 seasons playing Terran and was only ever able to make it to gold, and in my first season as Zerg I made it to platinum within 30 games.. How easy a race may or may not be to play has nothing to do with balance. | ||
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MiCroLiFe
Norway264 Posts
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baHmi
22 Posts
Remember when zergs got annihilated by mines? And they still complained after they got nerfed? And suddenly a month later the top zergs would micro single units in front of their armies or group the buffed overseers with their muta ball and mines mostly went dud? I think it's the same with hellbats. Right now zergs are too careless with droning and when an attack happens they cry imba. Soon zergs will figure out the exact timings they need to build units to hold the hellbat push and balance will flip in their favor again. | ||
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Anacreor
Netherlands291 Posts
On June 20 2014 08:48 JacobShock wrote: How easy a race may or may not be to play has nothing to do with balance. Plus the fact the race might suit you. Plus the fact that play at that level has nothing to do with top tier balance. I myself think the matchup is quite balanced so far. Will have to see how this turns out in the long run. It's too early to tell. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
Patch is too new, give it some time. | ||
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Frankenberry
Denmark302 Posts
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mortales
174 Posts
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TaShadan
Germany1965 Posts
On June 19 2014 05:27 yido wrote: This poll should be remade as: Is Taeja vs foreign zergs fair? TvZ is fairly balanced in the highest level of play, but still favors Zerg slightly on most maps and even more in the late game stage. Just because Taeja won HSC and DHack doesn't mean Zergs need a buff in ZvT. Noone should use foreigner games as a reference for balance. | ||
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Pandahunterz
Netherlands213 Posts
If you leave out the hellbats though and try for another strategy terran seems very weak though. Therefore all terrans go hellbats or at least try to make it look like they are so their opponents get scared and overcommit in hellbat defence and get rekt by every other strat. In other words hellbats just ruin the meta. This might solve itself by players finding better ways to deal with it, but even if it does until then watching TvZ is just way less fun for me (either terran destroys zerg with hellbats or any other strat cuz the zerg expects hellbats or the hellbat factor doesn't work out for the terran and the zerg wins). Think protoss deserves the attention a bit more than the TvZ at the moment. | ||
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F1nal
Germany216 Posts
Overall balanced I think. | ||
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Ctone23
United States1839 Posts
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frostalgia
United States178 Posts
I didn't come up with the name Transformation Servos, but I remember suggesting an upgrade to cause Hellions to transform. I asked for it to be 100/100 and not require Armory to research, but Blizzard wanted to really nerf these things after already trying a small change by reducing Medivac Slot size to 2 for Hellbats which didn't nerf them enough. This was back when they had the strength of Blue Flame without the research, which was the case for quite a while. Sure enough, the next week I saw Transformation Servos implemented. I saw no one else making that specific suggestion anywhere, although it certainly could've been. I could have very well suggested something they'd thought of already, but I prefer to believe we can have a positive effect on this game we all love, if we put enough effort into non-biased analysis. Now to branch on from that, I also had suggested that Pnumatized Carapace be moved to Hatch tech the week after Burrow was. I don't remember seeing that suggestion anywhere else either, but sure enough it was there the next week. I've sat back mostly since then, offering mostly feedback to others threads when the topic was worth replying to (rare on Bnet). However, after the nerf to Hellbats that requires Blue Flame to make them beefy, I decided to start replying again. I pleaded to buff the Servos upgrade, which I so badly wanted to see players get in tournaments, but never got used. Now I'm sure you can see why I've wanted this change for so long. After the Widow Mine nerf, I replied to blue posts suggesting again that they reduce the cost of Servos and don't require armory. Again, I don't claim that Blizzard used my ideas because I have no way to know for sure. But mostly on my own from what I could tell, I have been strongly pushing for a reason to get Servos for a long time. I gave a detailed explanation on a blue post thread earlier this year as to why Servos is no longer needed, and as someone who originally wanted it in the game, why I now wanted it gone. It didn't make sense with the Hellbat damage nerf already implemented, anyway. For the record, here was my reasoning: Hellions were holding Mech back. They didn't provide a good late-game use, and were only worth suiciding in for drone kills. Removing Servos helps Terran in lategame, by providing a nice way to zoom around the map then transform into beefy Hellbats for pressure. The Hellbat-Medivac Rush is having a good effect on Midgame TvZ right now, and in time it will stay a weapon in the Terran arsenal. However, with a Roach Warren or with enough Spines, Spores, and Queens, Zergs will figure out how to defend it. Then the metagame should really get interesting. I couldn't be happier with the variety it's added to TvZ. But let's not forget TvT!! Finally it feels like this matchup is evolving from it's WoL Marine/Tank roots. So this is just a big thanks to Blizzard for listening to this awesomely dedicated community (the constructive ones, anyway) and I hope to see many more GGs take place now that Heart of the Swarm feels fresh with possibilities again. I am enjoying the eventful 30-minute-plus matches we've been seeing from pros in all matchups across the board, and I'm excited to see where the metagame goes without any more changes taking place for a while. (I hope) | ||
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Orcasgt24
Canada3238 Posts
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Artanis[Xp]
Netherlands12968 Posts
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parkufarku
882 Posts
On June 20 2014 19:46 baHmi wrote: I still think the matchup is balanced. Remember when zergs got annihilated by mines? And they still complained after they got nerfed? And suddenly a month later the top zergs would micro single units in front of their armies or group the buffed overseers with their muta ball and mines mostly went dud? I think it's the same with hellbats. Right now zergs are too careless with droning and when an attack happens they cry imba. Soon zergs will figure out the exact timings they need to build units to hold the hellbat push and balance will flip in their favor again. Zerg getting annihilated by mines: Zerg Loss: Substantial Terran Loss: Mine cost negligent Mines were thus, justifiably nerfed. Zerg drone line getting annihilated by Hellbat drops: Zerg Loss: Substantial Terran Loss: Hellbat cost negligent Hellbat drops need nerds again. Even if Zerg wasn't too careless with Hellbat drops, a "failed hellbat drop" would at least kill 2 drones. That's 100 minerals + any mining time + larva usage redirected. Hellbats are too cheap in cost for what they are. | ||
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MirGHeaT
17 Posts
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Lokian
United States699 Posts
you might say, skill counters everything, but at the highest level of play, the effectiveness of hellbats outweighs skill. it is not hard to do, and put zerg in a position where they need more skill than the terran player to make things work. it might be okay in casual ranked matchmaking, but when it comes down to the best, the best easy skill beats the best hardest skill. might look at skill balancing like giving zerg less things they need to do in order to keep up. still think early game zerg needs to be looked at against terran if they keep this | ||
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p14c
Vatican City State431 Posts
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swddrgn
United States5 Posts
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KalWarkov
Germany4126 Posts
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Advantageous
China1350 Posts
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Jornada
United States223 Posts
On June 26 2014 10:20 Advantageous wrote: terran still underpowered. instead of additional dmg to shields, pls change to additional dmg to biological. ........ummmm nooooo | ||
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NotSorry
United States6722 Posts
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lokes
Argentina80 Posts
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
"Has the mothership core affected TvP balance?" | ||
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Apollo_Shards
1210 Posts
Moderating all the kids on their summer break defending their protoss race pick would be a nightmare. | ||
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slytown
Korea (South)1411 Posts
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Buddy168
United States157 Posts
But outside of the early to mid game. I feel the match up is unchanged. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On June 28 2014 04:10 Apollo_Shards wrote: TL asking for balance opinions regarding protoss would be suicidal for the mods. Moderating all the kids on their summer break defending their protoss race pick would be a nightmare. I almost feel like there is some kind of insinuation here. | ||
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shin ken
Germany612 Posts
Thus I choose to vote "the matchup is balanced" because for 90% of the general "casual" player population, to which I belong, individual skill is way more important than balance. For me and the vast majority of players the game is balanced, has always been balanced in every matchup from 2010 to 2014 (excluding betas) and always will be balanced in all (non-beta) future iterations. | ||
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Slydie
1913 Posts
For me, even making terran clarely OP for a while would make sense, because the pro scene need a more even representation. | ||
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TBone-
United States2309 Posts
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Axxis
United States133 Posts
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Superbanana
2369 Posts
People think matchup is balanced, and if not, the most voted option was "terran is slightly favoured"! What happens after widow mine and thor buff ?o_O | ||
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WidowMaker5974
France2 Posts
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batatm
Israel116 Posts
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Janemann
Germany1 Post
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ClanRH.TV
United States462 Posts
On June 30 2014 16:22 shin ken wrote: My level of skill is not good enough to allow me an informed opinion on this topic. Thus I choose to vote "the matchup is balanced" because for 90% of the general "casual" player population, to which I belong, individual skill is way more important than balance. For me and the vast majority of players the game is balanced, has always been balanced in every matchup from 2010 to 2014 (excluding betas) and always will be balanced in all (non-beta) future iterations. I like this comment. | ||
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docvoc
United States5491 Posts
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Gorechild-XIII
Canada6 Posts
I agree with what people are saying in terms that if Terran goes for the 2 base Hellbat/Hellbat&marine med-vac push and the Zerg doesn't scout it, Zerg dies and Terran wins and if Zerg scouts and defends they are in a really good spot. But by no means would i say Terran is favored during this phase in the game. Going for the Hellbat 2 base is like another all-in, its strong but it has its risks. In addition I feel Zerg definitely has an edge in the match-up, how much of an edge is debatable but i feel Terran is a bit under powered. My thoughts focus on 2 things. Mutas and lack of AoE. First of all I think mutas are a tad it to strong and efficient. And ever since the mine nerf i feel Terran so no viable AoE vs. Zerg which is what is making these big baneling- Mutas attacks so strong and hard to deal with as Terran. I think all the match-up needs, ignoring my opinion of the muta, is a way for Terran to deal AoE to Zerg in the big mid/late game fights. If that solution is the mine or another unit, Terran needs some splash. | ||
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SC2Towelie
United States561 Posts
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NotSorry
United States6722 Posts
Mid to high masters - random player. | ||
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cari-kira
Germany655 Posts
instead of early harassing and drop play, which both takes guts and skills but can lead to success, they tried to outmacro zergs and protoss and lost against massive production / big aoe deathball. now they have all options, and zerg/protoss can only all-in again and hope, that terrans went too greedy. so no, i dont think its balanced atm, and GSL/PL shows. | ||
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thejuggernaut44
United States1 Post
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Rollora
2450 Posts
Mid Game favors Terran. Lategame favors Zerg On June 20 2014 05:09 Survivor61316 wrote: doesn't mean anything really.Well all I know is that I spent 4 seasons playing Terran and was only ever able to make it to gold, and in my first season as Zerg I made it to platinum within 30 games.. The mechanics of a race may fit one player more then the other, saying for example, spamming units or massing thenm and A-Move is for sure easier for some then what you should do as terran. But that is for lower levels, in higher levels you have to hit timings, scout perfectly, are not allowed to forget injects/macro etc etc. Yeah Zerg is more forgiving in general, and terran is harder to play in lower leagues, but getting to a certain league doesn't prove a thing, cause you can proxy rax until diamond or even further, so no skill is needed either. If you were just gold with terran, you didn't start to understand the game yet. The timings, the counters, the scouting, what opponent can have at which point and prepare possible harassements at the right time, don't overdo things etc. On August 09 2014 17:36 cari-kira wrote: terran was never underpowered, its just that most terrans didnt use their timings, because they were depressed and didnt give everything they got. if you think you are underpowered, you play bad and lose your guts. instead of early harassing and drop play, which both takes guts and skills but can lead to success, they tried to outmacro zergs and protoss and lost against massive production / big aoe deathball. now they have all options, and zerg/protoss can only all-in again and hope, that terrans went too greedy. so no, i dont think its balanced atm, and GSL/PL shows. lol sorry but I haven't read so much BS for a long time. So PL and GSL shows that Terran didn't use their timings and are not UP. Funny how exactly these 2 leagues in 2014 show that the winrate with other races then terran was way higher. You forget the article here ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/460550-welcome-to-zparcraft-ii#8.0 ). you put it like terrans were all cowards and that is why they lost or underperformed? Do you even understand the game? Do you know the problems terran was struggling? The missing lategame unit, the problem when terran loses everything in one fight and other races do, that it is the autowin for the other races? That stimming, splitting, stop moving medivacs, sniping tech units, position units the right way etc etc is harder then just move with a big army ball and spell some casts. And then the macro while all that... Terran was for sure UP, and now it is maybe balanced, we will see. Pointing out CURRENt GSL, is ONE season and not really a measurement, compared more then half a year of non-terran dominance or more: being UP for that period. Also you completely ignore, that there might be some zergs or tosses dying now, are dying to terran, because they meet "Code S Material" Terrans while they were not actually Code S themself and are sort of "Patch Protosses/Zergs". Funny how you point out harassing would be the solution, as pros recently struggle to make this happen because well... its too ez to defend und way too hard to pull off especially when zerg has mutas out. And Protoss have their cannon. Great thinking of you there, all terrans are cowards. On June 24 2014 01:58 parkufarku wrote: Zerg getting annihilated by mines: Zerg Loss: Substantial Terran Loss: Mine cost negligent Mines were thus, justifiably nerfed. Zerg drone line getting annihilated by Hellbat drops: Zerg Loss: Substantial Terran Loss: Hellbat cost negligent Hellbat drops need nerds again. Even if Zerg wasn't too careless with Hellbat drops, a "failed hellbat drop" would at least kill 2 drones. That's 100 minerals + any mining time + larva usage redirected. Hellbats are too cheap in cost for what they are. in order to do early hellbat drops you have to push out hellbats and medivacs very soon. So the whole build depends on it to do damage. If it doesn't terran is far behind. Cost for overload spread= 0 Cost for pulling drones in time and have a spore and roaches in places (if build is scouted, which good players do): 0 See, i can make silly comparisons too  However, you miss facts like: build order (terran has such thing, you have to make the buildings in the right order, not just spam units when you see what opponent does), building time of units and that it blocks the buildings from making other units that could be needed with the army and so on. | ||
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
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