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On October 12 2011 05:44 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 03:21 Skwid1g wrote:On October 11 2011 22:58 KingPwny wrote:
I'm pretty sure if an American took the IPL 3, the forums would be going nuts. I for one, am extremely pleased that a european took the IPL in convincing and entertaining fashion (yes u should watch kiwi vs. stephano *drool*). I dont believe there is some crazy big change now in skill lvls, but that europeans are slowly catching up to the koreans and this shows. But make no mistake, the koreans are still the strongest. As for NA, well maybe someday they too can win big tournies, but it seems they have a long ways to go at the moment. :D WELL DONE STEPHANO! :D ... What? Idra JUST won IEM not too long ago. Huk is the only foreigner in Code S and he's from... you guessed it, North America! It's like you were just trying to find a way to say "EU > NA" for some reason. As great as idra's win was, i think it's hard to say that it was a defining moment for foreigners turning the ship around. He did have a tough time in groups and while his games vs Puma were really well played, there was clearly a few other factors at hand ( namely, the condition of TvZ). I think the real big test is MLG.
Still terran favored. Thanks for that. But we'll see at MLG if Stephano can hold his own a second time :D
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Don't jump the gun yet...most of these tournaments are very controlled. To test our true might we need a true world vs world tournament. Country vs Country and such. Get to it someone.
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There is still a big gap, it's shortening but it's still big, if a non-korean takes MLG Orlando then things will be a lot different.
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I think its a great start, but way to early to say. Of course the best Foreigners can compete with Code A Koreans(even then overall the Koreans have a higher win rate...) But when you look at the top Code S players I don't think the foreigners are strong enough to compete. Even the few that might be able to are highly out numbered, I can only think of maybe 3-4 that could potentially take a series compared to the 20+ Koreans who are Code S calibre players...
If MLG Orlando doesn't havea pure Korean top 8 I might change my mind. But with Polt, MKP MVP MC etc. coming over I don't see that happening.
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nothing has really changed. there were a few individuals who could compete vs koreans in broodwar too. The numbers might have increased by like... three. but thats about it.
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No, never did and won't for a long time.
People tend to glamorize one event or specific match and make a generalization.
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I've always thought the top foreigners were Code S level. They can compete against most koreans.
But the top koreans (MVP, NesTea, Bomber) still blow away all foreigners.
IPL3/IEM have just reaffirmed by beliefs. We will find out for certain when blizzcon/wcg/blizzard cup roll around.
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When foreigners start getting into Code S -- or even Code A for that matter -- then maybe I'll start rethinking the skill cap between Koreans and everyone else.
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Stephano and Thorzain can definitely deal with koreans, but the average gap beetwen Korea and the rest of the world is still huge.
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My opinion has always been that almost any pro can beat any other pro in a bo3, but it's not always likely. There's obviously a skill gap between Koreans and foreigners, and I don't think a lot of foreigners would have a legit chance vs. MVP in a bo5 or 7. My opinion hasn't changed after these two tournaments.
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On October 12 2011 07:32 DoomsVille wrote:
I've always thought the top foreigners were Code S level. They can compete against most koreans.
But the top koreans (MVP, NesTea, Bomber) still blow away all foreigners.
IPL3/IEM have just reaffirmed by beliefs. We will find out for certain when blizzcon/wcg/blizzard cup roll around.
Makes sense, since those 3 blow away everyone else in Code S on a regular basis.
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Don't get your hopes up too quickly, there's still no one at GSL.
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Hasn't changed at all.
There's no genetic reasons why koreans are better in general, but it's the influence of the environment that helps them develope their skills to a higher level.
Top Foreigners are not less talented than top koreans, in fact there's more top talents in non-korean countries, simply because of the population numbers of korea and the rest of the world.
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What About QXC? Srrsly, the bandanna man gets no love.
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On October 11 2011 14:44 jalstar wrote:
Not particularly, the top foreigners like Thorzain, Huk, Idra, Stephano, have always been able to beat mid-tier Koreans.
Thorzain over MC remains the biggest foreigner win, with maybe Huk over Nada in second.
Dimaga over Neastea is also a big upset. QXC's all kill in GSTL and Fenix 3 kill are also decent upsets
As for teh poll i voted slight change. I have a feeling the recent patch may have something to do with it though. Everyone is still kinda feeling the new game out still.
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Little to no change, because I've never thought that they were more skilled because they were Korean. I've always believed that there is no natural "skill" gap between Koreans and other races.
I think It's all about efficient practice and their ways of practice. I think they really know how to practice efficiently and they are taking that efficient practice and doing it for 10 hours a day. Anyone who is smart will become something if you show him whats important, how to practice, and put him in a room of computers filled with smart ppl like him.
If you have noticed most of the non-Korean famous "skilled" players say "I am trying to forget what I know because I've started to learn from the beginning". (i.e. NaNiWa). Do you know why they say this? "The practice system and how they approach the game"
Playing Brood-War for 10 years like a national-sport gave them unmeasurable amount of insight. They are using it well.
By saying all these I am not denying the reality of natural skill in this strategy game, I am saying is it's not because of "being korean" it's individually spread like any other activities (playing an instrument, being more talented in math, being an actor etc.)
To conclude, it was never "Koreans are more skilled" for me, so it didn't change anything. It was always "they have the most efficient practice system and a mountain of accumulated game-insight".
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On October 12 2011 08:50 Luepert wrote:
What About QXC? Srrsly, the bandanna man gets no love.
because he hasn't shown any results.
Besides all-killing IM
and when he did, he was praised but that was ages ago.
and all-killing IM isn't as praiseworthy as it would seem if losira/nestea wasn't part of it
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Barely changed for me but i was impressed by foreigners. Once the next mlg comes around im sure we will all remember why koreans are korean
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I still think if the top koreans are to face the top foreigners we'd get rolled.
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On October 11 2011 14:43 Waxangel wrote:
Hmm, considering that I always thought the BEST foreigners have a good shot against mid-level Koreans, and they still have almost no chance against the BEST Koreans, I don't think much has changed for me.
Look at me, replying to my own poll o/
I agree that the best Koreans still stand far ahead of all foreigners, but I think it's safe to say that the best foreigners now have more than a "good shot" at beating mid level Koreans. It's pretty even in my opinion.
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EPT
