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On June 19 2011 19:10 moopie wrote:
Game 1 was not a ling all-in (if you're talking about the second attack). After the 5 pool which Bisu defended fine (leaving them both even), what made a difference was a second ling wave that Bisu was not ready for, and cost him a fair bit. It was not all-in since hyvaa was on 3 base at the time with good econ, had lair and was waiting on a spire (which was later than usual because of the opening). Bisu did lose that game straight up in their encounters, he got careless with his sair fleet, wasnt able to storm drop as usual, and got every one of his storms dodged nicely. Even going dts every single game didn't save him.
He lost game 1 in the macro stage while he was on 3 base econ and had a large army (just not properly used), not because of cheese. He also lost game 3 straight up, because he got greedy and tried to double expo while his army was out of position and got punished for it.
Seriously what planet are you from? An attack that kills 12+ (probably closer to 20ish) probes and stops mining time + wrecks total havoc forcing canceling of cannons\pylons etc and then afterward leaves you at an EVEN game is NOT considered an all in?!?!? If bisu`s zeals are on hold position in his choke when those lings arrive instead of roaming around outside his natural hyvva would have been absolutely steamrolled in a few minutes. Hell I don`t even think he had started his spire when the first sair was out....
I have to ask, what do you consider an all in? Sending your first 4 drones to attack?
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What you're missing is that his spire wasn't late because of the 2nd wave of lings, they were late because his tech as a whole was late because of the 5 pool.
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On June 19 2011 19:30 moopie wrote:
What you're missing is that his spire wasn't late because of the 2nd wave of lings, they were late because his tech as a whole was late because of the 5 pool.
When have I ever suggested otherwise? I was merely pointing out how ridiculously far behind Hyvva would have been if his ling all in had failed. No tech, no drones, no eco, just 3 hatches, basically he was completely shafted if he didnt do massive amounts of damage with the lings, and still you don`t consider it an all in...
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...I'll say it again then.. I am not disputing that 5 pool is an all-in, I specifically stated his 2nd ling attack. The 5 pool is not what won him the game, it did work well enough to keep them both even (hyvaa's econ was shit, but bisu lost a few probes, mining time and was forced cannons in main). What came after (that 2nd attack) was not all-in in any way.
After the 5 pool was blocked, Bisu took his nat, and hyvaa put down his nat and his 3rd. hyvaa immediately got his main gas, then went lair, then started his spire. Since his gas was later than bisu (due to opening 5 pool), his spire was later than usual in comparison to the stargate. In the meanwhile, since he had minerals saved up and unused larva, he made a couple rounds of lings. Bisu wasn't ready for it, and defended poorly, but hyvaa was teching the entire time. The lings were not an all-in at that point because Bisu was not ready to push out with his zealots yet (so hyvaa was in no immediate danger like you imply), nor did hyvaa sacrifice econ or tech to make that attack. He simply had a window where he had spare larva + minerals and not much else to do with them until the spire finished. The spire timing was not delayed because of the second ling wave.
and fyi, when the first sair came out his spire was already morphing.
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Are you serious...............?
I hope too god your just trolling, if not I worry for you.
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On June 19 2011 17:22 Oystein wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2011 16:35 aupstar wrote:On June 18 2011 14:49 scrubtastic wrote:On June 18 2011 12:12 GolemMadness wrote:
This OSL business is bizarre. Bisu loses against a bad zerg, Horang2 gets 2-0ed in PVP, Major trashes everyone... What is going on?! Honestly prelims kinda suck. You gotta win against a bunch of people in a row, you are lacking information about lots of your opponents' playstyle/opening build orders while the highly televised progamers have their matches available for study, and cheese is very likely. You would really not be saying this if you actually watched Bisu's Bo3 against Hyvaa in the prelims. (Yes, he got beaten by Hyvaa who is <50% vs Protoss in a straight up match!) Did YOU watch the games? Because 5pool into 3hatch speedlings and 3hatch hydra bust is not what I consider straight up play at least. Just because the games turned out somewhat normally in the mid\lategame, did NOT mean they started out as straight up games, Hyvva was cheesing like his life was depending on it in the first 2 games... Sure hyvva played exceptionally well, and did beat bisu soundly in a straight up game in game3, but game1 that he won was nothing straight up, hell Bisu lost like a gazillion probes defending the 3hatch ling all in. That game was just an anomaly of an all in that somehow actually turned out somewhat even, tho I think hyvva might have had an advantage after killing all those probes.
Ahem..>_> Need I say more?
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fair enough. Let me try this one more time:
As I see it, and from what you have said before, there are three things that horang2 has going for him: 1. better tournament results, 2. a longer run, and 3. playing all the races.
1. Horang2 has reached one round of 16 in his entire career. That alone isn't very impressive. Combined with the fact that it didn't happen this month, and the games that got him there were against one of the weaker groups that MSL, and were two months ago, I give it next to no value.
2. Horang has been putting up better results longer, but the results aren't as good as they are now. He wasn't going undefeated like this month, or 90% like the streak he is on now. The fact that he is playing mostly bad opponents isn't his fault, but he needs to step up and put up better results if he is. I was taking his 9-1 out of courtesy for him because I think that the 5-4 that goes to the end of April is a reason against him. Is 5-4 vs bad people worse than 0-0? I think it is, but even if you think it isn't, then barely above .500 combined with over 2 months ago means once again it is a non issue.
3. Well, there isn't anything I can say to this other than Iris is about as good as grape, so horang has the same issue in one MU. But I don't remember this being an issue before.
So #3 is the only thing that is relevant in my eyes, and I want to compare that to Best playing better opponents. Both are out of the player's control, and both leave something to be desired in terms of proving themselves. At the end of the day though I think that playing better opponents is more inportant.
So that, combined with I think Best's in game play is better (which I don't value terribly much to begin with, and that I really can't defend other than to say I think it is) is why I think Best should be ranked higher.
I don't think that best is up to 08 levels, but I don't think it matters how good he was in the past. It is long ago enough to not help him, and I don't see how having a good past can be a detriment. Maybe in a different month he would need to be in 08 form to qualify for a top 5 spot, but this month is a weak month. Fantasy stork and (maybe) JD are just gone, zero has fallen apart, and almost everyone else failed at the OSL prelims. Best is coming off of a slump, and he may go into another one in July, but it doesn't diminish what he is doing now.
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I don't know why you're trying to insist that Best is better on paper than Horang2 when as I pointed out almost every indicator says he's not. And if you aren't confident defending his game play in a court of law and the results are obviously against you then how the fuck do you expect to convince anybody? :/
The statement that he's played better players is not even true. People have been telling you that it's not true and you aren't taking the hint. Jaedong is #1 ZvP, Bisu is #2 PvP, Shuttle is #3 PvP, all 3 are in the top 7 overall vP by ELO. Best's only opponent in the top 10 vP by ELO has been Flash. Bogus and Mind are both floating around 2100 TvP by ELO, which is good but not great. The loss to Turn who is under 2000 in TvP ELO is embarrassing -- even a slumping Stork is around 2100 PvP ELO. Right now Really is TRASH at TvP with only 3 wins in his last 15 games, which you'd know with even a glance at TLPD. Saint has the 4th lowest vP ELO of ANYONE in ALL of progaming.
Basically, Best has only 4 wins over competent players and only 2 wins over a superstar, both over the same superstar in the same match. His only loss was to a very low level vP player. That's the extent of Best's record.
Horang2 has 3 wins over high level competitors, 2 wins and a loss over mid-carders on his current streak.
Prior to the current streaks -- which ARE COMPARABLE with an edge to Horang2 due to diversity of opponents -- Best had a horrible loss record. 6 losses in a row with the only good vP player being Stats (who was on fire at the time) and the rest being mostly trash. Horang2 had a record of 11-5 starting from early March leading up to his streak, which is incomparably better. And while Horang2 "only" made Ro16 (admittedly losing to a player he had no business losing to), Best wasn't even making it past offline prelims.
You. Are. Wrong. Best has to PROVE he is not just a flavor of the month. He has not. End of story.
Edit: PS, the reason Best went 0-0 for a month was that he was kicked off the A team. So yes, going 0-0 would be worse than going 5-4. Anyone who plays in Proleague is BY DEFINITION a member of their team's A team. "A team" should not be confused with "A class," which is another mistake you seem to have made. And speaking of mistakes, your numbers are wrong anyway. Horang2 went 3-2 during April, which is why he was kicked off the PR that month.
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I just noticed that Flash and Jaedong have played as many standard games against each other as Boxer and Yellow, 43 (though of course Boxer and Yellow has played about 15 more unofficial games). Does anyone know if any pair of players have a higher head-to-head count, or are Flash and Jaedong close to breaking a record in that regard?
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On June 20 2011 07:41 Cpadolf wrote:
I just noticed that Flash and Jaedong have played as many standard games against each other as Boxer and Yellow, 43 (though of course Boxer and Yellow has played about 15 more unofficial games). Does anyone know if any pair of players have a higher head-to-head count, or are Flash and Jaedong close to breaking a record in that regard?
That is an interesting statistic, one that I had been wondering about myself. So many pro gamers didn't or won't even play that many games, let alone against the same guy that many times. It would be really cool to see the number of times all the rivalries had played between one another.
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On June 19 2011 20:20 aupstar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2011 17:22 Oystein wrote:On June 19 2011 16:35 aupstar wrote:On June 18 2011 14:49 scrubtastic wrote:On June 18 2011 12:12 GolemMadness wrote:
This OSL business is bizarre. Bisu loses against a bad zerg, Horang2 gets 2-0ed in PVP, Major trashes everyone... What is going on?! Honestly prelims kinda suck. You gotta win against a bunch of people in a row, you are lacking information about lots of your opponents' playstyle/opening build orders while the highly televised progamers have their matches available for study, and cheese is very likely. You would really not be saying this if you actually watched Bisu's Bo3 against Hyvaa in the prelims. (Yes, he got beaten by Hyvaa who is <50% vs Protoss in a straight up match!) Did YOU watch the games? Because 5pool into 3hatch speedlings and 3hatch hydra bust is not what I consider straight up play at least. Just because the games turned out somewhat normally in the mid\lategame, did NOT mean they started out as straight up games, Hyvva was cheesing like his life was depending on it in the first 2 games... Sure hyvva played exceptionally well, and did beat bisu soundly in a straight up game in game3, but game1 that he won was nothing straight up, hell Bisu lost like a gazillion probes defending the 3hatch ling all in. That game was just an anomaly of an all in that somehow actually turned out somewhat even, tho I think hyvva might have had an advantage after killing all those probes. Ahem..>_> Need I say more?
Oops my mistake, read it as all the games since you mentioned the entire BO3 first, and not as the single game you point out in the end.
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Osaka27173 Posts
On June 20 2011 07:41 Cpadolf wrote:
I just noticed that Flash and Jaedong have played as many standard games against each other as Boxer and Yellow, 43 (though of course Boxer and Yellow has played about 15 more unofficial games). Does anyone know if any pair of players have a higher head-to-head count, or are Flash and Jaedong close to breaking a record in that regard?
This is a great stat. Just a note about this, Flash and Jaedong overall play many more games than in the Boxer / Yellow era. It is kind of like how baseball plays 162 games now, rather than 154 (though the BW difference is much higher).
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Flash and jaedong are in the same group again? or am I mis seeing that? thats kind of funny 
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After the OSL prelims i reckon Hyvaa might be like 9-10th
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Flamewheel can I reqeust that bisu recieves his slump rightful spot at top of the PR?
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On June 20 2011 19:35 Iplaythings wrote:
Flamewheel can I reqeust that bisu recieves his slump rightful spot at top of the PR?
Given that Bisu managed to lose in prelims while Flash/JD will probably advance in ODT, I'm guessing not. I'm not flamewheel though. Unless Flash keeps losing in PL/JD goes back to losing.
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On June 20 2011 20:58 VGhost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 19:35 Iplaythings wrote:
Flamewheel can I reqeust that bisu recieves his slump rightful spot at top of the PR? Given that Bisu managed to lose in prelims while Flash/JD will probably advance in ODT, I'm guessing not. I'm not flamewheel though. Unless Flash keeps losing in PL/JD goes back to losing.
He's referring to Flamewheel's PR #1 curse, VGhost.
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On June 20 2011 21:40 DropBear wrote:For your consideration, Power Rank for the month of June! + Show Spoiler +
Why do you have a Fox team logo?
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EPT
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