|
On January 24 2011 04:21 Holgerius wrote:
I do not think it's fair to say that Bisu is doing ''so much better'' in WL. Flash is still undefeated and crushed Bisu head to head. Bisu has more wins because Flash has competent teammates all of a sudden (I mean, is anyone gonna argue that Flash would not have all-killed ACE if Stats hadn't done it, for instance?).
I can argue that, just because he can doesn't mean he will. Remember you all expect him to pass group stages of the individual leagues? Just because he can doesn't mean he did. Bisu played and show he did it, Flash didn't play so he can't prove it. Hell, who are you to say that he wouldn't lose to M18M's dt again like last year's WL?
What's not "fair" here is that you're discrediting Bisu's win over Flash's "non existence win".
|
It once again comes down to how much benefit of doubt you're willing to give him, and when he's actually undefeated in WL thus far including solid wins vs the #2 on the PR, an OSL finalist, a team full of Flash snipers and a Bogus who is on absolute fire, combined with his quite recent history of unprecedented domination over the SC scene it's in my opinion reasonable to assume that Flash would've taken them down if he had been given the chance. I am of course biased since I am a Flash fan, but I do not think it's a very incongruous statement.
Having Bisu at #2 would be ok, but it's by no means clear cut.
|
On January 24 2011 04:48 Holgerius wrote:
It once again comes down to how much benefit of doubt you're willing to give him, and when he's actually undefeated in WL thus far including solid wins vs the #2 on the PR, an OSL finalist, a team full of Flash snipers and a Bogus who is on absolute fire, combined with his quite recent history of unprecedented domination over the SC scene it's in my opinion reasonable to assume that Flash would've taken them down if he had been given the chance. I am of course biased since I am a Flash fan, but I do not think it's a very incongruous statement.
Having Bisu at #2 would be ok, but it's by no means clear cut.
How about Jaedong? I think Jaedong is in MSL means something. You are still giving Jaedong the benefit of doubt cuz in the past, he was a monster.....
|
I would argue Flash over Bisu, whatever their placement.
The fact is, BOTH are out of individual leagues now. To say who exited earlier last month, not this month, should not matter. Furthermore, they're both dominating in Winner's league, but when they went head to head, it was Flash who came out on top. You also can't hold the fact that Flash has less kills, because he's fielded later, against him. He's been the ace of his team every single time, and let's face it, he delivers. KT has never lost in WL, not even to SKT1.
|
Ranking JD is weird at the moment. On one hand he's still in MSL and he's most likely going to reach at least the final, on the other hand most of his games are not looking very impressive at all, some are downright terrible (such as the one vs Violet). He has also gotten absolutely stomped by both Bisu and Stork. I wouldn't hold JD as a favourite over any TBLS member at the moment, even in a Bo5. But as mentioned earlier, he's probably gonna be in yet another final (he is gonna have the same amount of finals as Nada if he does that, isn't he?) while both Bisu and Flash are knocked out. Weird situation.
Btw, Bogus is looking absolutely amazing all of a sudden. He only has losses vs Bisu and Flash so far in WL.  His kill list is pretty impressive.
|
On January 24 2011 04:48 Holgerius wrote:
It once again comes down to how much benefit of doubt you're willing to give him, and when he's actually undefeated in WL thus far including solid wins vs the #2 on the PR, an OSL finalist, a team full of Flash snipers and a Bogus who is on absolute fire, combined with his quite recent history of unprecedented domination over the SC scene it's in my opinion reasonable to assume that Flash would've taken them down if he had been given the chance. I am of course biased since I am a Flash fan, but I do not think it's a very incongruous statement.
Having Bisu at #2 would be ok, but it's by no means clear cut.
The game over Bisu is a definite point in Flash's favor.
The game against Bogus less-so, if only because of the way it played out. Not saying it's not important - as a big fan of the Bogus-is-good school of thought I've got to say it was a good win - but it doesn't prove as much as beating Bisu did.
|
Completely off-topic; happy birthday.
|
Forget Flash and Bisu... I'm looking forward to seeing Bogus and Violet on the PR next month. They're rippin' it.
|
Who's best at the moment, Violet or Stats?
|
On January 24 2011 03:54 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 03:36 Holgerius wrote:On January 23 2011 13:12 disciple wrote:
No other player in the history of BW took so much credit only for his potential. Alright, I'm not gonna argue with you. I'm gonna assume you are trolling, because this is the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard. well Im speaking about the period after his first OSL title, when was constantly losing in the group stages of MSL and got kicked out from OSL by some GGplay Luxury etc. I still remember how ppl kept arguing that he was the best terran in the world even when fantasy or even leta (not to mention forgg at some point) were clearly outperforming him for like 6 months. Im not trolling at all - even with only one OSL under his belt, ppl hailed flash as the best and most talented player ever. Artosis kind of sparked the whole thing. Now, 2 years after, it all makes perfect sense. But in the beginning of his career Flash got massive credit because of his talent and potential. So even when he is playing bad , which is not the case atm, or another guy is performing better than him, ppl still think he is the best, because he is Flash you know huh
Why on earth would you bring this now when Flash actually proved that he is indeed the best and most talented player ever? Those people were spot on.
|
On January 24 2011 11:19 L0thar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 03:54 disciple wrote:On January 24 2011 03:36 Holgerius wrote:On January 23 2011 13:12 disciple wrote:
No other player in the history of BW took so much credit only for his potential. Alright, I'm not gonna argue with you. I'm gonna assume you are trolling, because this is the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard. well Im speaking about the period after his first OSL title, when was constantly losing in the group stages of MSL and got kicked out from OSL by some GGplay Luxury etc. I still remember how ppl kept arguing that he was the best terran in the world even when fantasy or even leta (not to mention forgg at some point) were clearly outperforming him for like 6 months. Im not trolling at all - even with only one OSL under his belt, ppl hailed flash as the best and most talented player ever. Artosis kind of sparked the whole thing. Now, 2 years after, it all makes perfect sense. But in the beginning of his career Flash got massive credit because of his talent and potential. So even when he is playing bad , which is not the case atm, or another guy is performing better than him, ppl still think he is the best, because he is Flash you know huh Why on earth would you bring this now when Flash actually proved that he is indeed the best and most talented player ever? Those people were spot on.
The thing was that he didn't really prove much back in the days.
|
On January 24 2011 03:34 StylishVODs wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 11:28 Mortality wrote:
When the data does not provide what you wish, you alter the context and pretend you are speaking with the voice of reason. No. Flash dropped the ball and was punished for it. Whether or not Kal is better than Flash is irrelevant. Placing Flash in a ranking based purely on imaginary ability to win a Bo5 against anyone would have been nothing but contentious and would have sparked tremendous controversy. Your inability to see that frightens me. Again, this is your view of how the power rank should be. I have a different one, I feel that if its possible to tell that a player is better than another you should be able to put him higher on the rank, why does that have to fighten you?
FEELINGS ARE NOT OBJECTIVE. Making judgment calls about who is better than who that have no basis in results -- or else a basis that is several months old -- will not produce a more "accurate" ranking. It will instead reflect the arrogance of belief. Belief is not fact. Belief in "who is more skilled" has a dangerous way of influencing interpretation of results above and beyond the typical biases that enter the picture when we talk about what the Power Rank is and has always been about: hotness. Therein lies the contention. And this will either lead to massive fanboy catering, or yet more fanboy shouting matches. Power Rank threads are enough of a cesspool as things are.
As I said, you are one step short of tfeign right now.
|
Power Ranks aren't objective either? They aren't mean to be objective. Go stare at the ELO tables if you want objective—which, by the way, Flash is way way ahead in.
|
Oh come on, how far are you willing to think Flash belongs as the very top when he doesn't accomplish anything? Perhaps the circumstances aren't right, and his results aren't padded by a number of all-kills. But you just assume he will get it. When 2 players are comparable except one has more tangible results vs more accomplishments a few months ago, I'd say the one with the results belongs higher. If Flash didn't have his results from the past, he wouldn't even be considered for #2/3 right now, maybe #5 or so at most. You can't know for sure that Flash would get a lot of all-kills, but with Bisu it's pretty much proven at this point that he will(because he has).
Benefit of the doubt shouldn't put you above having to put up results.
|
I didn't say Flash deserved #1 or even #2 for that matter. I think PR should weigh starleague results fairly heavily. Stork is the hot thing for the moment, and he almost certainly will get February's #1 even if he doesn't do great the rest of the way here in January.
That being said, I don't think he would do very well against Flash in a Bo5 as hot as he's been.
|
On January 24 2011 12:50 Mortality wrote:
FEELINGS ARE NOT OBJECTIVE. Making judgment calls about who is better than who that have no basis in results -- or else a basis that is several months old -- will not produce a more "accurate" ranking. It will instead reflect the arrogance of belief. Belief is not fact. Belief in "who is more skilled" has a dangerous way of influencing interpretation of results above and beyond the typical biases that enter the picture when we talk about what the Power Rank is and has always been about: hotness. Therein lies the contention. And this will either lead to massive fanboy catering, or yet more fanboy shouting matches. Power Rank threads are enough of a cesspool as things are.
As I said, you are one step short of tfeign right now.
have no result basis or is several months old?
It's not like it was several months ago that Flash was the absolute best player without a doubt with results backing that up for an entire year.
You think he lost that because of 3 games after 12 months?
Results from a short samplesize are not facts either when deciding the strongest players.
You believe the PR should be about hotness I think it should be able to tell who is the best player right now. PR can't be 100% accurate, it can only do it's best and the results will be people on this forum discussing it.
The main reason I'm arguing with my beliefs are because of the small samplesize after such long era of domination, I don't think this is as retarded as you try so hard to make it sound.
PR is always going to be more or less subjective. ELO and KeSPA are objective. I don't understand why you have to get so heated up about it.
On January 24 2011 14:20 Lightwip wrote:
Oh come on, how far are you willing to think Flash belongs as the very top when he doesn't accomplish anything?
Under the circumstances, I'd give it another month before putting players like Kal ahead of Flash in a Power Rank.
|
Kal's placement was a leap of faith that was justified with arguable evidence. In hindsight, maybe not the best choice, but at the time I thought he belonged at #3. He certainly didn't live up to his placement though.
|
On January 24 2011 09:36 Holgerius wrote:
Who's best at the moment, Violet or Stats?
I'd still say Stats. Violet has shown a little streak of brilliance the last two outings, but it needs to last a little longer before I re-crown him KToss.
|
On January 24 2011 15:43 Lightwip wrote:
Kal's placement was a leap of faith that was justified with arguable evidence. In hindsight, maybe not the best choice, but at the time I thought he belonged at #3. He certainly didn't live up to his placement though.
Yeah, I'm just saying that I would have waited atleast a month before putting him about flash.
It's easy to judge in hindsight, but the chance of Kal staying above Flash yet another month is very unlikely, lets face it Kal has never accomplished anything special and he's around 200 ELO below Flash, thus if you should have put faith in any of the two it should have been Flash.
It's not a rare thing to see a player with a hot streak below more accomplished players with the justification that he needs to show that he can keep it up.
What we have here is a unique situation. A bonjwa, coming of the most dominant year ever, suddenly drops very few games to get out of both leagues while still dominating proleague.
Some people act like it's a retarded idea to actually think twice about how this affects the ranking.
|
On January 24 2011 14:20 Lightwip wrote:
Oh come on, how far are you willing to think Flash belongs as the very top when he doesn't accomplish anything? Perhaps the circumstances aren't right, and his results aren't padded by a number of all-kills. But you just assume he will get it. When 2 players are comparable except one has more tangible results vs more accomplishments a few months ago, I'd say the one with the results belongs higher. If Flash didn't have his results from the past, he wouldn't even be considered for #2/3 right now, maybe #5 or so at most. You can't know for sure that Flash would get a lot of all-kills, but with Bisu it's pretty much proven at this point that he will(because he has).
Benefit of the doubt shouldn't put you above having to put up results.
Your attitude is really getting annoying and you ought to know it by now. I'm not the first one to tell you that. You admit yourself that you're an absolute Flash hater, which makes it impossible for you to be anywhere near objective. So why don't you just stop talking about people you hate? It would raise the quality of your posts by an estimated 500%.
Everybody knows that you're just butthurt because Bisu is the one that hasn't been bringing in results for who knows how long now, despite his alleged talent.
Of course Flash would be considered for #2/#3 right now. How do you even define "without his past accomplishments"? It's impossible to just ignore the past because that's what brought him 72% overall win percentage, his insane ELO and ELO peaks, his aura, e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g. Apart from that just by judging the quality of his games, if you actually watch them, you can clearly see he's (one of) the best. Furthermore you can't blame Flash for not getting sent out as early as Bisu in WL or his teammates for stepping up their game right when WL starts.
User was warned for this post
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
