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"Flash is prone to be knocked out too early".
- Somebody allegedly thinks this. I don't know who, and I'm blaming no one.
Okay, I've got too much time on my hands. So I went and compiled a list (roughly chronological) of everybody who's ever knocked Flash out of an individual league, assuming I didn't miss anybody:
TT (Spring 2007 MST Prelim)
Stork (2007 Daum OSL)
Stork (2007 EVER OSL)
Rock (2007 OSC S1)
Bisu (2007 GOMTV MSL S3)
MuJuK (2007 Seoul e-Sports Fest.)
YellOw[ArnC] (2008 ClubDay MSL)
fOrGG (2008 Arena MSL)
Jaedong (2008 GOM Classic S1)
Jaedong (2008 GOMTV MSL S4)
Much (2008 WCG Korea)
GGPlay (2008 Incruit OSL)
Luxury (2008 EVER OSL)
Kwanro (2009 Avalon MSL)
UpMagic/BeSt (2009 Batoo OSL)
Bisu (2009 GOM Classic S2)
Leta (2009 Lost Saga MSL)
Bisu (2009 WCG Korea)
Jaedong/Yellow[ArnC] (2009 Bacchus OSL)
Jaedong (2010 WCG Korea)
EffOrt (2010 Korean Air OSL S1)
Jaedong (2010 Nate MSL)
Classic/SSak (2010 PDPop MSL)
Hyuk/Kal (2010 Bacchus OSL)
Flash has been knocked out by "bad" players exactly six times out of his 24 eliminations, or 25%. I have no idea how this compares to TBLS or the dragons or anybody else: what I do want to make very clear is:
1) 3 of these happened while he was a rookie, and one in a "minor league".
2) The Kwanro and Kal/Hyuk eliminations are debatably bad. As in, Kwanro's known to be able to up and punch a sucker because of his style (or lack thereof), Kal's a sometime-dragon and still potentially very good, and "to Hyuk" is a term we all know the meaning of.
Which means
3) Since his rookie year, the MSL elimination (and the Hyuk game) is the first time Flash has been knocked out of a Starleague by someone who isn't a) a master of the vs Terran matchup (Yarnc, Stork, UpMagic, etc.) b) playing really well at the time (GGPlay, Much, Kwan "I'm an MSL finalist" ro, etc.), or c) Bisu. Why Bisu gives Flash so much trouble I have no idea, but there it is.
Whether you think this is a major cause for concern, or just a huge fluke to end all flukes is really up to you. I lean towards the latter based on his domination of WL (when Stats and Violet let him play) and three consecutive dual finals, but you know, whatever.
How much weight you think it needs to be given is also up to you. I personally have no idea what to do with Flash. Stork's a clear #1 (short of getting demolished 3-0 by ZerO AND losing Flash AND Bisu AND a random scrub in WL); Bisu and Flash are virtually identical at this point; Flash has the head-to-head but Bisu has a better league record (this season). And then you have Jaedong. And fantasy. All of whom, results-wise, may be in the mix. And I may have forgotten a couple.
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On January 23 2011 12:05 Musoeun wrote:+ Show Spoiler +"Flash is prone to be knocked out too early".
- Somebody allegedly thinks this. I don't know who, and I'm blaming no one. Okay, I've got too much time on my hands. So I went and compiled a list (roughly chronological) of everybody who's ever knocked Flash out of an individual league, assuming I didn't miss anybody: TT (Spring 2007 MST Prelim)Stork (2007 Daum OSL) Stork (2007 EVER OSL) Rock (2007 OSC S1)Bisu (2007 GOMTV MSL S3) MuJuK (2007 Seoul e-Sports Fest.)YellOw[ArnC] (2008 ClubDay MSL) fOrGG (2008 Arena MSL) Jaedong (2008 GOM Classic S1) Jaedong (2008 GOMTV MSL S4) Much (2008 WCG Korea) GGPlay (2008 Incruit OSL) Luxury (2008 EVER OSL) Kwanro (2009 Avalon MSL)UpMagic/BeSt (2009 Batoo OSL) Bisu (2009 GOM Classic S2) Leta (2009 Lost Saga MSL) Bisu (2009 WCG Korea) Jaedong/Yellow[ArnC] (2009 Bacchus OSL) Jaedong (2010 WCG Korea) EffOrt (2010 Korean Air OSL S1) Jaedong (2010 Nate MSL) Classic/SSak (2010 PDPop MSL)Hyuk/Kal (2010 Bacchus OSL)Flash has been knocked out by "bad" players exactly six times out of his 24 eliminations, or 25%. I have no idea how this compares to TBLS or the dragons or anybody else: what I do want to make very clear is: 1) 3 of these happened while he was a rookie, and one in a "minor league". 2) The Kwanro and Kal/Hyuk eliminations are debatably bad. As in, Kwanro's known to be able to up and punch a sucker because of his style (or lack thereof), Kal's a sometime-dragon and still potentially very good, and "to Hyuk" is a term we all know the meaning of. Which means 3) Since his rookie year, the MSL elimination (and the Hyuk game) is the first time Flash has been knocked out of a Starleague by someone who isn't a) a master of the vs Terran matchup (Yarnc, Stork, UpMagic, etc.) b) playing really well at the time (GGPlay, Much, Kwan "I'm an MSL finalist" ro, etc.), or c) Bisu. Why Bisu gives Flash so much trouble I have no idea, but there it is. Whether you think this is a major cause for concern, or just a huge fluke to end all flukes is really up to you. I lean towards the latter based on his domination of WL (when Stats and Violet let him play) and three consecutive dual finals, but you know, whatever. How much weight you think it needs to be given is also up to you. I personally have no idea what to do with Flash. Stork's a clear #1 (short of getting demolished 3-0 by ZerO AND losing Flash AND Bisu AND a random scrub in WL); Bisu and Flash are virtually identical at this point; Flash has the head-to-head but Bisu has a better league record (this season). And then you have Jaedong. And fantasy. All of whom, results-wise, may be in the mix. And I may have forgotten a couple.
Nobody ever said that Flash busted out of leagues early to bad players in '08/'09 but rather that he lost BoX series to players that as the #1 Terran he really shouldn't have (especially given his domination in PL throughout this time). Yellow[ArnC], Much, Luxury, Kwanro, Leta. None of these players were terrible at the time for sure but when you are the #1 Terran in the world and hailed "Best Player Ever" (even back then many were saying it) then you are expected to beat them handily in a BoX. That's where the whole "Flash busts out of individual leagues early" thing comes from.
That being said I'm fully on the side of giving him the benefit of the doubt after his unprecedented year in 2010. A single season is hardly a great sample, let's wait to next season before we make any judgements as to him returning to being a PL monster only.
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9071 Posts
On January 23 2011 11:43 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 11:12 disciple wrote:
I cannot express how much better Bisu and Stork are than anyone else. FW you cant justify Bisu being below #3 hell, you have no arguments for putting Flash above him. Will it be because only one game on T favored map? Really? Or because the 2 loses to Stork in the MSL. Stork is simply the best player right now, Bisu is a close second, his PvZ is like the second coming of Jesus. You really think Bisu is that much better than Flash?
flash is pretty much idling this month, yes, he won the 3 games he had but is this enuf to like take him as the second best player atm? oh yea, he is Flash I forgot. No other player in the history of BW took so much credit only for his potential. I remember the period after he won his OSL vs stork, when he was pretty much good for nothing but ppl still thought he is the best terran in the world. So yea, right now placing flash high is theoretical stuff about how good he could be and how he would smash anyone in BoX. The fact of the matter is Flash is not in any starleague, and so is Bisu, but at least Bisu netted some 3 back to back all-kills to live up to his name.
Even if KT are good enuf atm to make Flash not work, its just right to say he hasnt play nearly enuf games to compete with Bisu's WL performance. But you would still put him above KTY, just because we are talking about Flash here, really there is absolutely no other reason
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Because he is (so far) undefeated since the start of this month, and defeated the #2 Power Rank in the process.
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On January 23 2011 13:12 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 11:43 Holgerius wrote:On January 23 2011 11:12 disciple wrote:
I cannot express how much better Bisu and Stork are than anyone else. FW you cant justify Bisu being below #3 hell, you have no arguments for putting Flash above him. Will it be because only one game on T favored map? Really? Or because the 2 loses to Stork in the MSL. Stork is simply the best player right now, Bisu is a close second, his PvZ is like the second coming of Jesus. You really think Bisu is that much better than Flash? flash is pretty much idling this month, yes, he won the 3 games he had but is this enuf to like take him as the second best player atm? oh yea, he is Flash I forgot. No other player in the history of BW took so much credit only for his potential. I remember the period after he won his OSL vs stork, when he was pretty much good for nothing but ppl still thought he is the best terran in the world. So yea, right now placing flash high is theoretical stuff about how good he could be and how he would smash anyone in BoX. The fact of the matter is Flash is not in any starleague, and so is Bisu, but at least Bisu netted some 3 back to back all-kills to live up to his name. Even if KT are good enuf atm to make Flash not work, its just right to say he hasnt play nearly enuf games to compete with Bisu's WL performance. But you would still put him above KTY, just because we are talking about Flash here, really there is absolutely no other reason
The reason is that Flash beat Bisu in WL. Bisu had a chance to show that he is a superior player and he failed.
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Estonia4505 Posts
On January 23 2011 17:05 Lebesgue wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 13:12 disciple wrote:On January 23 2011 11:43 Holgerius wrote:On January 23 2011 11:12 disciple wrote:
I cannot express how much better Bisu and Stork are than anyone else. FW you cant justify Bisu being below #3 hell, you have no arguments for putting Flash above him. Will it be because only one game on T favored map? Really? Or because the 2 loses to Stork in the MSL. Stork is simply the best player right now, Bisu is a close second, his PvZ is like the second coming of Jesus. You really think Bisu is that much better than Flash? flash is pretty much idling this month, yes, he won the 3 games he had but is this enuf to like take him as the second best player atm? oh yea, he is Flash I forgot. No other player in the history of BW took so much credit only for his potential. I remember the period after he won his OSL vs stork, when he was pretty much good for nothing but ppl still thought he is the best terran in the world. So yea, right now placing flash high is theoretical stuff about how good he could be and how he would smash anyone in BoX. The fact of the matter is Flash is not in any starleague, and so is Bisu, but at least Bisu netted some 3 back to back all-kills to live up to his name. Even if KT are good enuf atm to make Flash not work, its just right to say he hasnt play nearly enuf games to compete with Bisu's WL performance. But you would still put him above KTY, just because we are talking about Flash here, really there is absolutely no other reason The reason is that Flash beat Bisu in WL. Bisu had a chance to show that he is a superior player and he failed.
I am NOT a Bisu fan in any sense of the word (antifan would more describe it), and I'd put him above Flash this month if only for his durability. Sure, he lost a few matches here and there, but performing 3 allkills is not an easy task, especially when you drop out of a league and lose a critical match vs. Flash in a short period of time. Both can be justified, but I'd put Bisu above Flash for now. I'd sure be happy if he'd drop out of the power rank for a long time, though.
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Bisu is 12-3 so far this month, including 3 all-kills and loses to Flash and Storkx2. Flash is 6-0. I would probably favour Flash here, he is looking pretty invincible again and won head-to-head, which would be my time-breaker in this case. Losing to Stork right now cannot be hold against anyone really. But there are 8 more days to all-kill some teams 
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Vatican City State431 Posts
Deep down inside we all know that Flash is still the best player  His hand will be healed and then he will activate his "god-mode" once again. He's already beating people with only one hand! Haha!
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On January 23 2011 17:30 Malinor wrote:Bisu is 12-3 so far this month, including 3 all-kills and loses to Flash and Storkx2. Flash is 6-0. I would probably favour Flash here, he is looking pretty invincible again and won head-to-head, which would be my time-breaker in this case. Losing to Stork right now cannot be hold against anyone really. But there are 8 more days to all-kill some teams
I kind of disagree with this. Bisu's play against Stork were uninspired to say the least. This despite Stork having to prepare for both OSL and MSL while Bisu only has MSL. It wasn't so much Stork came up with some super-PvP build. But rather Bisu getting out-matched by Stork's "standard" play.
I don't really know who should be 2 and 3 between Bisu and Flash, assuming current trend continue. But I do view his series against Stork as a big negative.
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Might be even harder to place 2,3,4 if  Jaedong picks up proleague performance and 3-0's  Snow.
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On January 23 2011 17:30 Malinor wrote:Bisu is 12-3 so far this month, including 3 all-kills and loses to Flash and Storkx2. Flash is 6-0. I would probably favour Flash here, he is looking pretty invincible again and won head-to-head, which would be my time-breaker in this case. Losing to Stork right now cannot be hold against anyone really. But there are 8 more days to all-kill some teams
I tend to prefer to look at the win/loss delta (wins - losses) when comparing players, which would put Bisu at 9 and Flash at 6. Otherwise players with few games tend look far stronger than they are. More games means more opportunity to lose one here or there. Frankly, with only 6 games played a flawless record means very little. In fact, both Flash and Bisu are currently on 8 game win streaks, just Bisu has played so many more games this month that some of his losses are there too.
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On January 23 2011 13:12 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 11:43 Holgerius wrote:On January 23 2011 11:12 disciple wrote:
I cannot express how much better Bisu and Stork are than anyone else. FW you cant justify Bisu being below #3 hell, you have no arguments for putting Flash above him. Will it be because only one game on T favored map? Really? Or because the 2 loses to Stork in the MSL. Stork is simply the best player right now, Bisu is a close second, his PvZ is like the second coming of Jesus. You really think Bisu is that much better than Flash? flash is pretty much idling this month, yes, he won the 3 games he had but is this enuf to like take him as the second best player atm? oh yea, he is Flash I forgot. No other player in the history of BW took so much credit only for his potential. I remember the period after he won his OSL vs stork, when he was pretty much good for nothing but ppl still thought he is the best terran in the world. So yea, right now placing flash high is theoretical stuff about how good he could be and how he would smash anyone in BoX. The fact of the matter is Flash is not in any starleague, and so is Bisu, but at least Bisu netted some 3 back to back all-kills to live up to his name. Even if KT are good enuf atm to make Flash not work, its just right to say he hasnt play nearly enuf games to compete with Bisu's WL performance. But you would still put him above KTY, just because we are talking about Flash here, really there is absolutely no other reason
Where on earth were you last year? Flash getting benefit of the doubt makes sense considering that he put together the best year in BW ever. People praised him for his potential, he flailed for a while, then lived up to his potential and became a Bonjwa. Seems like the faith in him was warranted afterall.
Now is it enough to put him above Bisu this PR, that's a close call. I have no doubt that Flash > Bisu but I think you gotta go with the results, Bisu's just seen more playtime and has accomplished a bit more.
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You keep missing the point of the PR ranking. Its not to measure who, in your heart of hearts, do you think is better, but who is hotter this month.
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On January 23 2011 11:28 Mortality wrote:
When the data does not provide what you wish, you alter the context and pretend you are speaking with the voice of reason. No. Flash dropped the ball and was punished for it. Whether or not Kal is better than Flash is irrelevant. Placing Flash in a ranking based purely on imaginary ability to win a Bo5 against anyone would have been nothing but contentious and would have sparked tremendous controversy. Your inability to see that frightens me.
Again, this is your view of how the power rank should be.
I have a different one, I feel that if its possible to tell that a player is better than another you should be able to put him higher on the rank, why does that have to fighten you?
I've mentioned nothing about ability to beat player X in a Bo5. Beaing able to play well in BoX series is not what pro bw is all about.
You twist my words as if I'm saying I wanted Flash higher than Stork in this PR, that is not the case.
On January 23 2011 11:19 Mooncat wrote:
We can all agree that the PR writer is or at least should be a very knowledgeable person when it comes Starcraft, right? Thus he should be able to subjectively decide which players are currently the Top10 by watching their games and actually judging their play independent of results. And that's exactly how FakeSteve did it if I remember correctly. This is what differentiated the PR distinctly from rankings like ELO or KeSPA.
If you lose 5 games in a row, obviously you're gonna lose a lot of ELO/KeSPA points. But what if those 5 games were against cream of the crop players who totally brought their S-game? Or even against mediocre players who just had a really good day. You can still have played very, very well and still have lost. Does that make you a worse player than XY who won 5 games playing terribly because his opponent played even worse? It doesn't. And that's what should be reflected in the PR imho.
Of course this requires the PR writer to watch each and every game basically, which is a lot I admit, but that's what my ideal PR would look like. Results and/or leagues should play little to no role in the PR placement imho, only what skill the players actually show in their games really matters. Certain factors like legit reasons why a player doesn't show as brilliant play as another do have to be considered however. It's only natural that your average game quality suffers a bit if you have to play loads of games for example.(being active in all 3 leagues, carrying your team almost single-handedly, etc.) I know it's not that simple, especially not simple enough to put it in 3 small paragraphs, but you get my drill I think.
This is pretty much what I'd like the PR to be.
For this month, I'd put Stork above Flash. I might still think that Flash is the better player, but I cannot be certain because Stork has stepped up big time and he's showing it.
The gap is closening and thus the results must obviously be the tiebreaker here.
As for the others, I cannot simply believe that all of jaedong, bisu and kal has stepped up to Flash's level with such short sample size. Give it another month and maybe we'll be able to tell.
I'm not just imagining things, I'm reasoning with logic here.
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On January 23 2011 13:12 disciple wrote:
No other player in the history of BW took so much credit only for his potential.
Alright, I'm not gonna argue with you. I'm gonna assume you are trolling, because this is the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard.
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9071 Posts
On January 24 2011 03:36 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 13:12 disciple wrote:
No other player in the history of BW took so much credit only for his potential. Alright, I'm not gonna argue with you. I'm gonna assume you are trolling, because this is the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard.
well Im speaking about the period after his first OSL title, when was constantly losing in the group stages of MSL and got kicked out from OSL by some GGplay Luxury etc. I still remember how ppl kept arguing that he was the best terran in the world even when fantasy or even leta (not to mention forgg at some point) were clearly outperforming him for like 6 months. Im not trolling at all - even with only one OSL under his belt, ppl hailed flash as the best and most talented player ever. Artosis kind of sparked the whole thing. Now, 2 years after, it all makes perfect sense. But in the beginning of his career Flash got massive credit because of his talent and potential. So even when he is playing bad , which is not the case atm, or another guy is performing better than him, ppl still think he is the best, because he is Flash you know huh
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On January 24 2011 03:54 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 03:36 Holgerius wrote:On January 23 2011 13:12 disciple wrote:
No other player in the history of BW took so much credit only for his potential. Alright, I'm not gonna argue with you. I'm gonna assume you are trolling, because this is the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard. well Im speaking about the period after his first OSL title, when was constantly losing in the group stages of MSL and got kicked out from OSL by some GGplay Luxury etc. I still remember how ppl kept arguing that he was the best terran in the world even when fantasy or even leta (not to mention forgg at some point) were clearly outperforming him for like 6 months. Im not trolling at all - even with only one OSL under his belt, ppl hailed flash as the best and most talented player ever. Artosis kind of sparked the whole thing. Now, 2 years after, it all makes perfect sense. But in the beginning of his career Flash got massive credit because of his talent and potential. So even when he is playing bad, which is not the case atm, ppl still think he is the best, because he is Flash you know huh
Exactly, you don't judge someone for their "potential". You judge them for what they are at the moment. And Bisu atm with Jaedong is a much stronger candidate for 2nd/3rd spot on PR than Flash. Bisu is doing so much better than Flash in WL and Jaedong is kicking arse in MSL (a favorite to tie with NaDa for the most archieved player of all time). But for the remaining of the days of January, Flash and Jaedong is fighting for the 4th/3rd spot.
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Of course every one has a different perfect PR. From my point of view, i would place the players by the criterion "Who impressed me the most this month? Who made unexpected and biggest jumps at his skill level?" Therefore a lot of non S-class players would be considered too, like bogus performance was really great, He should be considered as well as Killer and PerfectMan.
Only considering results or skill level would be boring. Probably Flash would be ranked 1 for ever then. S -class players have their ELO Top 3 spots and Kespa Ranks. But PR should give other people the credits. The S-class players has to do more for getting a higher seed in PR then others. They have to do some special performance like Bisus 3 AK or if Stork wins both leagues. But just because Flash wins his two games per week i wont put him as #1.
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An interesting idea is to imagine this scenario:
If someone, who knows little about starcraft, is asking you: Who are the 5 best players right now?
Who would you name and in what order?
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I do not think it's fair to say that Bisu is doing ''so much better'' in WL. Flash is still undefeated and crushed Bisu head to head. Bisu has more wins because Flash has competent teammates all of a sudden (I mean, is anyone gonna argue that Flash would not have all-killed ACE if Stats hadn't done it, for instance?).
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EPT
