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Well, it's just not about # of wins, but your opposition. For instance, Flash is undefeated, taking games off good plays like Fantasy, Leta, Skyhigh, while Bisu was demolished by Flash. Going one round deeper in one league is hardly enough to be the deciding factor, I think.
I mean, who are you going to put above Flash?
Stork? Sure: he's rocking leagues and WL.
Bisu? He's rocking in WL, but a little less than Flash is, and has no leagues any more. He was defeated by Flash. Seems a bit tenuous to put him above Flash, but arguable.
Jaedong? Letting his team down in proleague repeatedly, but up a league on Flash. Maybe.
Kal? No: failed hard in january even if he is still technically alive.
To me, the lowest you could put flash in the next rank is #4. I think he looks stronger than Bisu/Jaedong and would put him at #2.
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I think it's too early to decide the order of the top players. It's probably gonna be Stork #1, Bisu/Flash #2/3, and Jaedong #4, but we can't really say much until the next week passes. While JD is still in the MSL, he's up against pretty damn easy opponents. Not sure how much I want to hold that against him honestly.
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On January 22 2011 12:54 nodule wrote:
Well, it's just not about # of wins, but your opposition. For instance, Flash is undefeated, taking games off good plays like Fantasy, Leta, Skyhigh, while Bisu was demolished by Flash. Going one round deeper in one league is hardly enough to be the deciding factor, I think.
I mean, who are you going to put above Flash?
Stork? Sure: he's rocking leagues and WL.
Bisu? He's rocking in WL, but a little less than Flash is, and has no leagues any more. He was defeated by Flash. Seems a bit tenuous to put him above Flash, but arguable.
Jaedong? Letting his team down in proleague repeatedly, but up a league on Flash. Maybe.
Kal? No: failed hard in january even if he is still technically alive.
To me, the lowest you could put flash in the next rank is #4. I think he looks stronger than Bisu/Jaedong and would put him at #2.
Had to chuckle at the bolded player. Bias maybe? 
Also, I don't think anyone's arguing that Flash will be anywhere below #4 next month. At least nothing short of Flash going on a losing streak in the WL, and Fantasy stomping Stork 3-0 while carrying T1 in the next week.
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On January 22 2011 13:12 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2011 12:54 nodule wrote:
Well, it's just not about # of wins, but your opposition. For instance, Flash is undefeated, taking games off good plays like Fantasy, Leta, Skyhigh, while Bisu was demolished by Flash. Going one round deeper in one league is hardly enough to be the deciding factor, I think.
I mean, who are you going to put above Flash?
Stork? Sure: he's rocking leagues and WL.
Bisu? He's rocking in WL, but a little less than Flash is, and has no leagues any more. He was defeated by Flash. Seems a bit tenuous to put him above Flash, but arguable.
Jaedong? Letting his team down in proleague repeatedly, but up a league on Flash. Maybe.
Kal? No: failed hard in january even if he is still technically alive.
To me, the lowest you could put flash in the next rank is #4. I think he looks stronger than Bisu/Jaedong and would put him at #2. Had to chuckle at the bolded player. Bias maybe? Also, I don't think anyone's arguing that Flash will be anywhere below #4 next month. At least nothing short of Flash going on a losing streak in the WL, and Fantasy stomping Stork 3-0 while carrying T1 in the next week.
I understand Skyhigh isn't at the top of his game right now, but he's still arguably the second best TvTer in the world (after Flash himself and possibly Fantasy), has a winning record against Flash head-to-head and has the second highest TvT ELO Peak, after Flash. Hardly a pushover.
If you insist on belittling Flash's month, I'd pick your arguments better.
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On January 22 2011 13:33 TaimalaiX wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2011 13:12 baubo wrote:On January 22 2011 12:54 nodule wrote:
Well, it's just not about # of wins, but your opposition. For instance, Flash is undefeated, taking games off good plays like Fantasy, Leta, Skyhigh, while Bisu was demolished by Flash. Going one round deeper in one league is hardly enough to be the deciding factor, I think.
I mean, who are you going to put above Flash?
Stork? Sure: he's rocking leagues and WL.
Bisu? He's rocking in WL, but a little less than Flash is, and has no leagues any more. He was defeated by Flash. Seems a bit tenuous to put him above Flash, but arguable.
Jaedong? Letting his team down in proleague repeatedly, but up a league on Flash. Maybe.
Kal? No: failed hard in january even if he is still technically alive.
To me, the lowest you could put flash in the next rank is #4. I think he looks stronger than Bisu/Jaedong and would put him at #2. Had to chuckle at the bolded player. Bias maybe? Also, I don't think anyone's arguing that Flash will be anywhere below #4 next month. At least nothing short of Flash going on a losing streak in the WL, and Fantasy stomping Stork 3-0 while carrying T1 in the next week. I understand Skyhigh isn't at the top of his game right now, but he's still arguably the second best TvTer in the world (after Flash himself and possibly Fantasy), has a winning record against Flash head-to-head and has the second highest TvT ELO Peak, after Flash. Hardly a pushover. If you insist on belittling Flash's month, I'd pick your arguments better.
He's 1-4 tvt since the new season started with a loss to some no name terran on Woonjin. Its not a quality win in my opinion.
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Somehow I feel like PR is turning into a short term KeSPA rank.
They're almost the same except results last longer in the other.
Would be nice to have a rank of the current "Best player", with an objective writer basing his ranks on what he feels to be true and not purely based on results.
I feel as if the old PRs were more based on the feelings of an PR writer who tried to be objective.
Right now, if I log in and I know nothing about starcraft, I would actually believe that Kal is a better player than Flash and Jaedong. It just feels so wrong because we all know he obviously isn't.
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FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
On January 22 2011 16:16 StylishVODs wrote:
Somehow I feel like PR is turning into a short term KeSPA rank.
They're almost the same except results last longer in the other.
Would be nice to have a rank of the current "Best player", with an objective writer basing his ranks on what he feels to be true and not purely based on results.
I feel as if the old PRs were more based on the feelings of an PR writer who tried to be objective.
Right now, if I log in and I know nothing about starcraft, I would actually believe that Kal is a better player than Flash and Jaedong. It just feels so wrong because we all know he obviously isn't.
Would you like this to be more of what I personally feel? I mean I value statistics a lot when it comes down to stuff like this, though I could add spin to it. I'm no Fakesteve when it comes to hyping/raging at certain players but it could be possible. As for this being a short-term KeSPA ranking thing, that honestly could be done just by using KeSPA's point formula and resetting it every month.
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I don't mean it as a personal attack or anything to your writing Flamewheel. A month ago you said some things about flash and now he's 5th with even Kal ahead of him because he dropped just a few games.
Personally I'd like it more if you put a spin on it like fakesteve did.
Ofcourse results matters in the end anyway but maybe not as much as now.
If possible, the spin should be as unbiased as possible.
I just think that it should be discussed
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FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
Oh it's okay, I didn't take it as an attack. I'm still new to this job and could definitely use some input. I know each PR writer has had his own style, but it's still nice to listen to what everybody has to say.
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On January 22 2011 12:54 nodule wrote:
while Bisu was demolished by Flash. .
demolished? hardly...flash barely won it..if his push was any later he would have been the one to get demolished
im not saying flash did bad this month..and he would definitely be in the top 4 for this PR..but one win against certain players doesnt necessarily make them ahead of someone else in PR. that would make anyone who won all their games from 4pool rank 1.
imo i still think bisu should remain 2nd..lost to flash but hes had 3 AKs now against 2 non scrub teams and he makes PvZ look like learning abc despite zerg supposedly being more dominant than protoss
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I wonder how will You start making next PR if fantasy takes OSL and Zero MSL :D
Personally i feel hyped for Zero vs Stork Bo5 since spring MSL 2009, when they were supposed to meet in final, their game senses and overall play style fit each other so perfectly that it will produce the most entertaining PvZ in the world, not bisu, nor jaedong could achieve this level of entertainment with any Z or respectively P player. Same goes for fantasy vs stork, terran revolutionist is no pushover when it comes to this match-up, he is just as likely to win Bo5 with best PvTer ever as godterran.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On January 22 2011 19:43 evilfatsh1t wrote:demolished? hardly...flash barely won it..if his push was any later he would have been the one to get demolished im not saying flash did bad this month..and he would definitely be in the top 4 for this PR..but one win against certain players doesnt necessarily make them ahead of someone else in PR. that would make anyone who won all their games from 4pool rank 1. imo i still think bisu should remain 2nd..lost to flash but hes had 3 AKs now against 2 non scrub teams and he makes PvZ look like learning abc despite zerg supposedly being more dominant than protoss
I don't know how you can even begin to claim Zerg being more dominant than Protoss when WL statistics are like 67% in Protoss favor right now. While a good majority of PvZ wins have been from Bisu, and some from Stork, who are completely on fire right now, even Protoss failures such as Jaehoon have been able to win PvZ.
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On January 22 2011 16:54 flamewheel wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2011 16:16 StylishVODs wrote:
Somehow I feel like PR is turning into a short term KeSPA rank.
They're almost the same except results last longer in the other.
Would be nice to have a rank of the current "Best player", with an objective writer basing his ranks on what he feels to be true and not purely based on results.
I feel as if the old PRs were more based on the feelings of an PR writer who tried to be objective.
Right now, if I log in and I know nothing about starcraft, I would actually believe that Kal is a better player than Flash and Jaedong. It just feels so wrong because we all know he obviously isn't. Would you like this to be more of what I personally feel? I mean I value statistics a lot when it comes down to stuff like this, though I could add spin to it. I'm no Fakesteve when it comes to hyping/raging at certain players but it could be possible. As for this being a short-term KeSPA ranking thing, that honestly could be done just by using KeSPA's point formula and resetting it every month.
"Best player" is basically a modified version of the Kespa rank. The Kespa rank is an "accomplishment" ranking. And usually that's what people care for when ranking players. Nobody cares if you outplayed your opponent in a BoX but lost. In the end, results are what lingers in people's minds and not how they got there. So modifying the Kespa rank, by adding your own opinion, would be the PR of the best players in the world.
That said, you'll never appease everyone in terms of how far back you want to take it. Or how much MSL, OSL, and PL are worth. But if you have your own opinion on the matter, and want to make it consistent, then you could just assign your own values.
For example, 50% PL, 30% OSL, 20% MSL. And for PL, current month's play counts 50%, last month 35%, 2 months ago 15%, and favor the most consistent performers in case of close calls. While for SL, current season counts 70%, past season count 30%, and favor consistent SL performers in case of close calls.
Giving yourself a standard like Kespa ranking or ELO ranking does at least take out some of the bias. But tiebreakers should always favor the top players since we're more certain of their ability to maintain their performance. So if you have, say, Bisu, Hydra, and Sea all close together, then Bisu goes before Sea who goes before Hydra. You can even extend this for top player: Flash over Jaedong over Stork/Bisu in case of near-ties.
Anyway, that's my opinion on the matter. And while it seems simple in theory, it's still pretty difficult to pull of given how few times players play each month.
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On January 22 2011 15:15 Nick_54 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2011 13:33 TaimalaiX wrote:On January 22 2011 13:12 baubo wrote:On January 22 2011 12:54 nodule wrote:
Well, it's just not about # of wins, but your opposition. For instance, Flash is undefeated, taking games off good plays like Fantasy, Leta, Skyhigh, while Bisu was demolished by Flash. Going one round deeper in one league is hardly enough to be the deciding factor, I think.
I mean, who are you going to put above Flash?
Stork? Sure: he's rocking leagues and WL.
Bisu? He's rocking in WL, but a little less than Flash is, and has no leagues any more. He was defeated by Flash. Seems a bit tenuous to put him above Flash, but arguable.
Jaedong? Letting his team down in proleague repeatedly, but up a league on Flash. Maybe.
Kal? No: failed hard in january even if he is still technically alive.
To me, the lowest you could put flash in the next rank is #4. I think he looks stronger than Bisu/Jaedong and would put him at #2. Had to chuckle at the bolded player. Bias maybe? Also, I don't think anyone's arguing that Flash will be anywhere below #4 next month. At least nothing short of Flash going on a losing streak in the WL, and Fantasy stomping Stork 3-0 while carrying T1 in the next week. I understand Skyhigh isn't at the top of his game right now, but he's still arguably the second best TvTer in the world (after Flash himself and possibly Fantasy), has a winning record against Flash head-to-head and has the second highest TvT ELO Peak, after Flash. Hardly a pushover. If you insist on belittling Flash's month, I'd pick your arguments better. He's 1-4 tvt since the new season started with a loss to some no name terran on Woonjin. Its not a quality win in my opinion.
It's kind of absurd to disregard three years of being an excellent TvT sniper because of his last four games not including Flash.
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On January 22 2011 20:11 Roffles wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2011 19:43 evilfatsh1t wrote:On January 22 2011 12:54 nodule wrote:
while Bisu was demolished by Flash. . demolished? hardly...flash barely won it..if his push was any later he would have been the one to get demolished im not saying flash did bad this month..and he would definitely be in the top 4 for this PR..but one win against certain players doesnt necessarily make them ahead of someone else in PR. that would make anyone who won all their games from 4pool rank 1. imo i still think bisu should remain 2nd..lost to flash but hes had 3 AKs now against 2 non scrub teams and he makes PvZ look like learning abc despite zerg supposedly being more dominant than protoss I don't know how you can even begin to claim Zerg being more dominant than Protoss when WL statistics are like 67% in Protoss favor right now. While a good majority of PvZ wins have been from Bisu, and some from Stork, who are completely on fire right now, even Protoss failures such as Jaehoon have been able to win PvZ.
thats why i said supposedly
this was supposed to be the "zerg-era" but then comes along bisu and the rest of protoss tags along and start to win against zergs. im not pulling this "zerg-era" stuff out of my ass. korean commentators have also said that its absurd that protoss, especially bisu can defeat zerg when so many other protoss cant. and as you said stats may show 67% in protoss favour but again like you said...most of those wins come from 2 people. zerg being dominant doesnt mean scrubs like jaehoon have no chance at all..it just means zerg would be higher in ZvP in general...which you can see throughout this season
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On January 22 2011 20:47 SimonB wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2011 15:15 Nick_54 wrote:On January 22 2011 13:33 TaimalaiX wrote:On January 22 2011 13:12 baubo wrote:On January 22 2011 12:54 nodule wrote:
Well, it's just not about # of wins, but your opposition. For instance, Flash is undefeated, taking games off good plays like Fantasy, Leta, Skyhigh, while Bisu was demolished by Flash. Going one round deeper in one league is hardly enough to be the deciding factor, I think.
I mean, who are you going to put above Flash?
Stork? Sure: he's rocking leagues and WL.
Bisu? He's rocking in WL, but a little less than Flash is, and has no leagues any more. He was defeated by Flash. Seems a bit tenuous to put him above Flash, but arguable.
Jaedong? Letting his team down in proleague repeatedly, but up a league on Flash. Maybe.
Kal? No: failed hard in january even if he is still technically alive.
To me, the lowest you could put flash in the next rank is #4. I think he looks stronger than Bisu/Jaedong and would put him at #2. Had to chuckle at the bolded player. Bias maybe? Also, I don't think anyone's arguing that Flash will be anywhere below #4 next month. At least nothing short of Flash going on a losing streak in the WL, and Fantasy stomping Stork 3-0 while carrying T1 in the next week. I understand Skyhigh isn't at the top of his game right now, but he's still arguably the second best TvTer in the world (after Flash himself and possibly Fantasy), has a winning record against Flash head-to-head and has the second highest TvT ELO Peak, after Flash. Hardly a pushover. If you insist on belittling Flash's month, I'd pick your arguments better. He's 1-4 tvt since the new season started with a loss to some no name terran on Woonjin. Its not a quality win in my opinion. It's kind of absurd to disregard three years of being an excellent TvT sniper because of his last four games not including Flash.
No it's not, we're talking specifically about his current TvT.
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United States33555 Posts
On January 22 2011 16:16 StylishVODs wrote:
Somehow I feel like PR is turning into a short term KeSPA rank.
They're almost the same except results last longer in the other.
Would be nice to have a rank of the current "Best player", with an objective writer basing his ranks on what he feels to be true and not purely based on results.
I feel as if the old PRs were more based on the feelings of an PR writer who tried to be objective.
Right now, if I log in and I know nothing about starcraft, I would actually believe that Kal is a better player than Flash and Jaedong. It just feels so wrong because we all know he obviously isn't.
honestly, a ranking of "who would I take in a best of five series to save my life" would be a really, really boring rank 
not only would the top ranks barely change, but it would be faaaar more subjective than more results based ranks because 80% of it would rely on how much past credit the writer feels like giving a player.
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PR ranks should NOT include past credit at all prior to the month. Like if someone who won a SL last month and then proceed to get knocked out of SL, he does NOT deserve to be in the PR. PR should be like, okay so from beginning of the month up till the end, which player have shown the most stellar performances? Then rank them from those performances.
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That has never been how the PR works. -__-
You have to have a mixture of the two.
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EPT
