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On January 20 2011 18:56 StylishVODs wrote:
Baubo, I don't really understand your reasoning. Why make it more complicated than it is? PL and SL is not that different except that mental barriers might be a factor that a player is performing worse in either one.
You're playing a game of bw versus an opponent, thats all.
We know Flash doesn't have this mental barrier anymore.
If he plays a 100 games and lose 5 of those and those happened to matter, it's just bad luck timed losses if you are certain that the player wasn't affected by "choking".
If you dominate the PL you should be able to dominate the SLs but sometimes it doesn't work out, thats what happened this time.
I'm not saying it's impossible for stork to actually be the best player right now, I'm just saying that it's imposssible to tell yet based on what we know and that it's more likely that Flash is still the top player.
Actually, they are very different. You forget that PL line-ups are kept hidden. In SL, players can train specifically to face Flash. Moreover, they can specifically train to face Flash on Map X, rather than "whatever map we are on when Flash is sent out in WL" or "the map we are hoping Flash will be sent out on in regular PL."
So no, baubo is actually correct. Causation has not been proven.
Do I think Flash is weak or that he will do poorly next season? No. But speaking in the here and now? If a progamer achieves good results in WL and advances far in Starleague (especially if the competition is difficult), I think that player should be rewarded more heavily than a player who does better in WL but is not in Starleague. And I will gladly spit the arguments Flash fans use all the time when talking about his wunderkind status: a player in both WL and Starleague -- especially at the current level of SL, Ro4 and Ro8 -- has more games to prepare for.
Whether or not Stork is the best player... is irrelevant. I'd argue he has the most momentum and that he's the current favorite for PR #1.
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On January 20 2011 22:22 pylonsalad wrote:
I hate Flash. I love Stork. And I believe Flash should still be number 1 on the PR. I miss Fakesteve because his power rankings werent a summary of recent results. It had some predictive analysis to it. I believe the PR should be ranking of: Given their current form who do you expect to perform better next month. Not: Who had the best results last month. If I wanted to know the results I could just look up TPLD. To put it another way, I believe the PR should be a measure of "who is most likely to win a tournament, should a new tournament start now." Every progamer (not fan) would place Flash on top of that list. Yes, I know that given such a definition of the PR, the rankings would not change much over time. So be it. If Flash is the odds-on favourite to win every tournament till the end of time then he should be number 1 till the end of time. But that's not going to happen. The field always catches up to the Bonjwa eventually.
And I repeat: I hate Flash. I love Stork.
Fuck that, results has to be a part of the mixture of the formula used to decide the PR. There are many factors; results in the leagues, how the actual games play out, past performances that warrants benefit of doubt, etc etc.
Stork is definitely #1 at the moment.
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On January 20 2011 22:35 Mortality wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 18:56 StylishVODs wrote:
Baubo, I don't really understand your reasoning. Why make it more complicated than it is? PL and SL is not that different except that mental barriers might be a factor that a player is performing worse in either one.
You're playing a game of bw versus an opponent, thats all.
We know Flash doesn't have this mental barrier anymore.
If he plays a 100 games and lose 5 of those and those happened to matter, it's just bad luck timed losses if you are certain that the player wasn't affected by "choking".
If you dominate the PL you should be able to dominate the SLs but sometimes it doesn't work out, thats what happened this time.
I'm not saying it's impossible for stork to actually be the best player right now, I'm just saying that it's imposssible to tell yet based on what we know and that it's more likely that Flash is still the top player.
Actually, they are very different. You forget that PL line-ups are kept hidden. In SL, players can train specifically to face Flash. Moreover, they can specifically train to face Flash on Map X, rather than "whatever map we are on when Flash is sent out in WL" or "the map we are hoping Flash will be sent out on in regular PL."
It works the other way around too. In SL, Flash can train specifically to face whomever he is facing. In PL, Flash doesn't know who he will face, but everybody else prepares to face Flash anyway.
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I don't understand what causation has not been proven means :/
But I agree, stork should be rewarded more and he has been. It's just that people claim he's the best right now and how can you possibly say that when he has not proven it. He's on a winstreak sure but against such consistancy flash has proven the last year you need to do alittle more than advance abit in the leagues. samplesize is too small.
When the cat's away, the mice will play.
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I completely supported dropping Flash down to #5 when he dropped out of both leagues. I think he should climb a little, but it still hurts him a lot so I don't think he should rise above #3. (MAYBE #2 under the exact right circumstances.)
That being said, it's completely ridiculous to elevate Stork to some god when he's only been on a good streak for a little bit. He's still a distant fourth over the long term against the other big three.
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On January 21 2011 00:03 SimonB wrote:
I completely supported dropping Flash down to #5 when he dropped out of both leagues. I think he should climb a little, but it still hurts him a lot so I don't think he should rise above #3.
That being said, it's completely ridiculous to elevate Stork to some god when he's only been on a good streak for a little bit. He's still a distant fourth over the long term against the other big three.
The strange thing about Stork is that he is not a distant fourth if he only plays against the other 3 but he is the most likely to drop games vs random scrubs out of TBLS.
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In my eyes Flash could very well be at #2 next month. 
It would be a bit weird to have someone who's knocked out of both leagues relatively early that high, but if anyone has ever deserved it, it's Flash.
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He's done terrific versus the other three considering. His record versus Flash is very deceiving though since Flash has basically owned him after the first two Bo5 when he was a rookie (one of which was basically worthless).
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I feel that while the top four may be hard to split, it might be even harder to decide the lower pr ranks this time around. Noone stands out really.
Who I like for Jan so far:
5=.  Hydra/ Fantasy (Fantasy has won more games but Hydra looks more scary to me. Purely opinion)
7.  Stats (Tearing up swl)
8. great (Wins solidly in most of his games)
9. Calm (ehhh lack of alternatives and he's still in MSL)
10. Jaehoon 
CBNC:
Sea (choked in ace match and couldn't seal deal against fanta)
Modesty (hasn't played for STX at all. Looked good against Kal but meh it's Kal)
Removed: Kal, Shine, HoGiL
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On January 20 2011 22:46 okum wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 22:35 Mortality wrote:On January 20 2011 18:56 StylishVODs wrote:
Baubo, I don't really understand your reasoning. Why make it more complicated than it is? PL and SL is not that different except that mental barriers might be a factor that a player is performing worse in either one.
You're playing a game of bw versus an opponent, thats all.
We know Flash doesn't have this mental barrier anymore.
If he plays a 100 games and lose 5 of those and those happened to matter, it's just bad luck timed losses if you are certain that the player wasn't affected by "choking".
If you dominate the PL you should be able to dominate the SLs but sometimes it doesn't work out, thats what happened this time.
I'm not saying it's impossible for stork to actually be the best player right now, I'm just saying that it's imposssible to tell yet based on what we know and that it's more likely that Flash is still the top player.
Actually, they are very different. You forget that PL line-ups are kept hidden. In SL, players can train specifically to face Flash. Moreover, they can specifically train to face Flash on Map X, rather than "whatever map we are on when Flash is sent out in WL" or "the map we are hoping Flash will be sent out on in regular PL." It works the other way around too. In SL, Flash can train specifically to face whomever he is facing. In PL, Flash doesn't know who he will face, but everybody else prepares to face Flash anyway.
So then you're arguing that when Flash knows who he is playing his performance is worse? That makes no sense.
Under the current Proleague format, Flash has more of an edge over his opponents there than he does in Starleague. Hence why he produces strong PL results even when he's not doing so hot in individuals.
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On January 21 2011 04:04 Mortality wrote:
So then you're arguing that when Flash knows who he is playing his performance is worse? That makes no sense.
I have no idea how you managed to interpret my post as saying the opposite of what I did. Here's the correct interpretation: Flash knows who he's facing in SL => Flash can train specifically for them => his performance is better.
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On January 21 2011 04:04 Mortality wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 22:46 okum wrote:On January 20 2011 22:35 Mortality wrote:On January 20 2011 18:56 StylishVODs wrote:
Baubo, I don't really understand your reasoning. Why make it more complicated than it is? PL and SL is not that different except that mental barriers might be a factor that a player is performing worse in either one.
You're playing a game of bw versus an opponent, thats all.
We know Flash doesn't have this mental barrier anymore.
If he plays a 100 games and lose 5 of those and those happened to matter, it's just bad luck timed losses if you are certain that the player wasn't affected by "choking".
If you dominate the PL you should be able to dominate the SLs but sometimes it doesn't work out, thats what happened this time.
I'm not saying it's impossible for stork to actually be the best player right now, I'm just saying that it's imposssible to tell yet based on what we know and that it's more likely that Flash is still the top player.
Actually, they are very different. You forget that PL line-ups are kept hidden. In SL, players can train specifically to face Flash. Moreover, they can specifically train to face Flash on Map X, rather than "whatever map we are on when Flash is sent out in WL" or "the map we are hoping Flash will be sent out on in regular PL." It works the other way around too. In SL, Flash can train specifically to face whomever he is facing. In PL, Flash doesn't know who he will face, but everybody else prepares to face Flash anyway. So then you're arguing that when Flash knows who he is playing his performance is worse? That makes no sense. Under the current Proleague format, Flash has more of an edge over his opponents there than he does in Starleague. Hence why he produces strong PL results even when he's not doing so hot in individuals.
No, what makes no sense is doing such big conclusions from 4 games which dropped Flash from both leagues. If Flash displays innability to advance further in SL in next seasons while still owning PL, then we could talk about it, but now it's absurdly soon. Especially when we are talking about a guy who just made 3 consecutive double finals.
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Will there ever be a split of teamliquid page between sc:bw and sc2?
I don't like the second game as much as the first one, hm.
User was warned for this post
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Ok, I liquibeted zero to win with stork, start placing zero and fantasy
in EVERY PR 9th and 10th please, I type it every month for year now.
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On January 21 2011 05:14 okum wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 04:04 Mortality wrote:
So then you're arguing that when Flash knows who he is playing his performance is worse? That makes no sense. I have no idea how you managed to interpret my post as saying the opposite of what I did. Here's the correct interpretation: Flash knows who he's facing in SL => Flash can train specifically for them => his performance is better.
You're missing the point that Flash's performance in SLs is actually worse than in PLs so your logic is incorrect from the start.
Also, I really don't think Flash should get too much higher than #5 this week, and Fantasy probably needs to be placed pretty high again.
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On January 22 2011 07:22 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 05:14 okum wrote:On January 21 2011 04:04 Mortality wrote:
So then you're arguing that when Flash knows who he is playing his performance is worse? That makes no sense. I have no idea how you managed to interpret my post as saying the opposite of what I did. Here's the correct interpretation: Flash knows who he's facing in SL => Flash can train specifically for them => his performance is better. You're missing the point that Flash's performance in SLs is actually worse than in PLs so your logic is incorrect from the start.
There's nothing wrong with the logic; in fact both arguments are valid. That's why I said that it works the other way around too. The unsolved problem is to correctly weigh the different pros and cons of Flash's position against each other.
Now, your claim that Flash's performance in SLs is worse than in PL is debatable by itself. A total of four lost games is hard to interpret as anything other than a random fluke considering that they were preceded by a year of total domination of the individual leagues.
Sure, if you count wins and losses, Flash's ratio is slightly higher in PL, but you should also count the quality of the opposition (e.g. playing some 20 SL games against Jaedong over the last year).
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It basically comes down to how much benefit of doubt you're willing to give Flash. IMO his performance during the last year, which was completely unique in the history of SC, combined with the fact that he's currently looking as strong as ever in PL/WL warrants a very high position.
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On January 22 2011 07:57 okum wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2011 07:22 Shikyo wrote:On January 21 2011 05:14 okum wrote:On January 21 2011 04:04 Mortality wrote:
So then you're arguing that when Flash knows who he is playing his performance is worse? That makes no sense. I have no idea how you managed to interpret my post as saying the opposite of what I did. Here's the correct interpretation: Flash knows who he's facing in SL => Flash can train specifically for them => his performance is better. You're missing the point that Flash's performance in SLs is actually worse than in PLs so your logic is incorrect from the start. There's nothing wrong with the logic; in fact both arguments are valid. That's why I said that it works the other way around too. The unsolved problem is to correctly weigh the different pros and cons of Flash's position against each other. Now, your claim that Flash's performance in SLs is worse than in PL is debatable by itself. A total of four lost games is hard to interpret as anything other than a random fluke considering that they were preceded by a year of total domination of the individual leagues. Sure, if you count wins and losses, Flash's ratio is slightly higher in PL, but you should also count the quality of the opposition (e.g. playing some 20 SL games against Jaedong over the last year).
In terms of lifetime results, this may be true, but in terms of recent results... Flash dropped the ball in fairly easy OSL/MSL groups, but he's been very dominant against strong players in PL. However, looking at lifetime PL results, you have to consider that PL format has changed significantly from the beginning of Flash's career until now, and you have to consider that many of Flash's "bad" stretches in PL were from his team relying on him rather exclusively as an ace player, which makes the whole discussion moot because I was commenting that Flash has bigger advantage when the PL match-ups are determined blind -- something that didn't start happening until after the cheating scandal.
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It's ridiculous how little of the benefit of the doubt Flash is getting from some of you guys.
Yeah Stork is obviously #1 PR right now (I don't think that should be disputed) but you can absolutely put Flash at #2. Maybe someone else deserves it more but he's in the discussion, and to act like he's not just because he's in neither league is ridiculous. This is the greatest player in modern history playing at near his peak form and people are saying he can't be #2? If Jaedong wasn't looking as shaky as he's looked in years this might be different ... if Bisu was still in a league it might be different ... if Fantasy played well with any consistency it might be different ... but none of those are true.
And it's not like Flash can't do well in leagues ... obviously he just made 6 straight finals and won 4. He literally had 4 bad games at the worst time possible, then went back to playing amazingly. I'd take him over anyone in a bo5 right now, with Stork it might be close but there's honestly not that much to indicate that Stork's PvT has suddenly caught up to Flash (if Aztec got played twice it might be different), in spite of how great Stork has looked. Flash has looked just as good and has always owned the psychological edge against Stork.
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On January 22 2011 11:20 darktreb wrote:
It's ridiculous how little of the benefit of the doubt Flash is getting from some of you guys.
Yeah Stork is obviously #1 PR right now (I don't think that should be disputed) but you can absolutely put Flash at #2. Maybe someone else deserves it more but he's in the discussion, and to act like he's not just because he's in neither league is ridiculous. This is the greatest player in modern history playing at near his peak form and people are saying he can't be #2? If Jaedong wasn't looking as shaky as he's looked in years this might be different ... if Bisu was still in a league it might be different ... if Fantasy played well with any consistency it might be different ... but none of those are true.
And it's not like Flash can't do well in leagues ... obviously he just made 6 straight finals and won 4. He literally had 4 bad games at the worst time possible, then went back to playing amazingly. I'd take him over anyone in a bo5 right now, with Stork it might be close but there's honestly not that much to indicate that Stork's PvT has suddenly caught up to Flash (if Aztec got played twice it might be different), in spite of how great Stork has looked. Flash has looked just as good and has always owned the psychological edge against Stork.
Easy logic. Other people in leagues = harder for them to prepare, making every other wins for them just that much more valuable than Flash's. Flash only has WL = easier to practice for because of less busy schedule. Yes its not like Flash can't do well in leagues but atm you can't prove that he can because well he is out of them. I would place people in both leagues + constant WL appearance > people in one league and constant appearance in WL then I would put people who only has WL to practice for. Quite frankly, Bisu has made it deeper than Flash in MSL and is doing better than Flash in WL and Jaedong is still kicking arse in MSL while having only one less win than Flash in WL, so he should be ranked higher than Flash too.
It goes
1. Stork
2/3. Bisu/Jaedong
4.Flash
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EPT
