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United States8841 Posts
Fine, if you want an analogy that deals purely in a strategic advancement sense then Kasparov was no less the most dominating player ever because Capablanca existed in the past, and Kaprov was there to challenge him.
You did nothing to address my points that it was indeed possible for the previous bonjwas to have a winrate like Flash, and to do as well as Flash has in both tournaments (Nada proves this), but you hold them to a different standard because:
"What I'm saying, regarding bonjwas, is that in past eras, I do not think Flash's level of dominance was even possible. There were too many different things a player would have to account for."
-- it was the past. That's not an argument. Nada was even further in the past, where things were even less defined, how come Oov and Savior weren't doing what Flash has for 3 seasons when Nada could?
You might think of it as disparaging for me to lay the nostalgia card but that's all you're bringing up. You constantly discredit Flash, and to your "you're a hardcore Flash fanboy" comment, also Jaedong because...Things were different. You even pointed out how successive bonjwas were even more dominant, so if Flash has been more dominant (and from a statistical and accomplishment sense he either is or is damn close), why doesn't he fit the trend? Why not Jaedong?
Your entire debate against anyone in the "modern" era being a bonjwa was that it's "easier" to be good in a mapped out game and that's disingenuous, not only to Flash but to Jaedong and any possibly dominant future players.
Also, the GOAT doesn't have to be cross generational. If someone won 8 titles in a year then they're a GOAT, I'd reckon.
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I still think the entire bonjwa thing falls apart when Savior is basically held up as the definition of a bonjwa.
He's was so dominant! Look at all those MSL finals! (ignores OSL)
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On September 02 2010 23:38 Wings wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 12:27 Lightwip wrote:
The good thing is, Flash and Jaedong aren't as uncontested in their dominance this time around. Good players like Bisu, Stork, Fantasy, Light, Baby(maybe after he finds his rainbow socks), Effort, etc have shown that they have the power to take plenty of games off them, not because they faltered, but because said players just play better than before.
In all honesty, I wouldn't mind it if both Jaedong and Flash went into a slump for 2 months or so so that some other players win SL's. What are you talking about do you even watch starcraft check the starleague finals for the past several years I think you'll see the very ESSENCE of the word "uncontested dominance" for LeeSsangRok. Count them. How many finals did NOT have Flash or JD in them? And how many Flash & JD finals have we had in the past few months? Well, for starters, we've had 3 straight Flash/JD MSL finals. In the OSL, the last time Flash/JD wasn't in the finals was in the Fall of '08. Effort was the only blip in the string of JD/Flash victories after that, but compare that to the "dominancies" of other Bonjwas. You can't compare to LeeSsangRok. JD and Flash are both Bonjwa, or beyond. Anyone who contests this is just ignorant and trying to be cool by turning away from the obvious. JD is likely to have the most starleague titles of all time and Flash's dominance in all 3 MU's (70%+) has never been seen before. If one didn't exist, the other would have become so dominant, Brood War would have been considered a cracked game and everyone would have moved on to SC2 already.
Perhaps you don't understand. I was referring to only this latest set of starleagues.
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On September 03 2010 04:39 okum wrote:
Either way, Flash will lose one month of being #1.
This is a serious matter. When the end of time comes, it's the number of months atop the TL PR that determines which player's fanboys have won.
Ya. 
Flash is being robbed here. This just shows what a JD fanboy Plexa really is deep inside, he simply couldn't stand the idea of putting Flash back at the top, so he decided to skip one month. Shame on you! This is a disgrace.
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On September 03 2010 08:21 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 04:39 okum wrote:
Either way, Flash will lose one month of being #1.
This is a serious matter. When the end of time comes, it's the number of months atop the TL PR that determines which player's fanboys have won. Ya. Flash is being robbed here. This just shows what a JD fanboy Plexa really is deep inside, he simply couldn't stand the idea of putting Flash back at the top, so he decided to skip one month. Shame on you! This is a disgrace.
Didn't plexa say he was going to post the PR after tomorrow? If Flash wins the OSL he'll be first both this and the next PR.
(Thx Plexa, btw)
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On September 03 2010 07:41 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 23:38 Wings wrote:On September 02 2010 12:27 Lightwip wrote:
The good thing is, Flash and Jaedong aren't as uncontested in their dominance this time around. Good players like Bisu, Stork, Fantasy, Light, Baby(maybe after he finds his rainbow socks), Effort, etc have shown that they have the power to take plenty of games off them, not because they faltered, but because said players just play better than before.
In all honesty, I wouldn't mind it if both Jaedong and Flash went into a slump for 2 months or so so that some other players win SL's. What are you talking about do you even watch starcraft check the starleague finals for the past several years I think you'll see the very ESSENCE of the word "uncontested dominance" for LeeSsangRok. Count them. How many finals did NOT have Flash or JD in them? And how many Flash & JD finals have we had in the past few months? Well, for starters, we've had 3 straight Flash/JD MSL finals. In the OSL, the last time Flash/JD wasn't in the finals was in the Fall of '08. Effort was the only blip in the string of JD/Flash victories after that, but compare that to the "dominancies" of other Bonjwas. You can't compare to LeeSsangRok. JD and Flash are both Bonjwa, or beyond. Anyone who contests this is just ignorant and trying to be cool by turning away from the obvious. JD is likely to have the most starleague titles of all time and Flash's dominance in all 3 MU's (70%+) has never been seen before. If one didn't exist, the other would have become so dominant, Brood War would have been considered a cracked game and everyone would have moved on to SC2 already. Perhaps you don't understand. I was referring to only this latest set of starleagues.
Flash vs Jaedong WCG
Flash vs Jaedong MSL
Flash/Free vs Jaedong OSL
Yeah man, people are really starting to catch up.
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I'm not a fan of skipping months. I'd rather the PR come out after free vs Flash, and then if October is based on the OSL finals only then so be it? If Flash beats free, then we will see 1. Flash 2. JD for September PR. Then if Flash beats JD in the final, we will have the same exact ranking again in October. What's horrible about that? If JD beats Flash, then you can swap the two of them for October PR. Free winning might change Sept and Oct as well.
Why skip the month? Is the chance of having the same ranking two months in a row that daunting?
If we keep this one any longer, it's gonna start to bleed the eyes to see Bisu as the highest ranked Protoss (especially if free wins the OSL).
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On September 03 2010 08:21 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 04:39 okum wrote:
Either way, Flash will lose one month of being #1.
This is a serious matter. When the end of time comes, it's the number of months atop the TL PR that determines which player's fanboys have won. Ya. Flash is being robbed here. This just shows what a JD fanboy Plexa really is deep inside, he simply couldn't stand the idea of putting Flash back at the top, so he decided to skip one month. Shame on you! This is a disgrace.
What are you talking about? Plexa has stated infact he hates Jaedong.
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United States8841 Posts
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 03 2010 06:12 darktreb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 01:27 Plexa wrote:On September 02 2010 00:06 SuperArc wrote:On September 01 2010 20:27 Plexa wrote:
Mmmm I wasn't suppose to be writing PR this month but some things came up and my replacement will have to start next month. I'll wait until OSL semis are over then I'll release a PR - hope that's okay with everyone! Actually I'd rather you wait a whole month then. To only include the semi-finals would give next month's PR even less meaning You actually have a very very good point. While I'd hate to delay even longer, september could possibly only have one more game. So... I guess I'll wait until OSL is over =/ Doesn't it kind of make more sense to do a PR now and skip October's instead? That way you have PR's after months where a lot of games were played and skip months where not many (in this case at most 5 total in all of progaming) were. It makes a lot more sense to wait a week and write the PR after the OSL final. There isn't a single scheduled SCBW event for the rest of september thanks to the gom/kespa dispute. OSL won't have prelims again until early october at the very earliest. So either
- release PR today and then have a really awkward october
- release PR next week and then do the next PR the month after games happen again
OR
- I can do one tonight, and next week!
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On September 03 2010 06:44 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Fine, if you want an analogy that deals purely in a strategic advancement sense then Kasparov was no less the most dominating player ever because Capablanca existed in the past, and Kaprov was there to challenge him. Actually, now that you bring up the chess analogy, it makes me see Mortality's point: in chess there is pretty much no question that top modern players would destroy past world champions, but that doesn't at all put an end to the question of who was the "greatest of all time", and you're as likely to hear "Morphy" as "Kasparov" in answer to that question.
Theory on chess has evolved in a very similar way to theory on Starcraft (albeit over a much longer period of time): defensive techniques were perfected, opening builds mapped out, etc. A lot of what Mortality said about Starcraft applies to chess as well, and it's pretty much impossible to answer the questions of how Kasparov might have done in Morphy's time or vice versa.
Speaking of whom, "most dominating player ever", was certainly Paul Morphy, not Gary Kasparov, although his domination was over a shorter term.
On a totally different note, can we please, please agree to stop using the term "fanboy" unless it's really called for? I think "fan" works very well and is much more pleasant to read.
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United States8841 Posts
I've never been comparing the skill level of modern players to past players, just the level of domination. Things that aren't technically specific to an era.
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I really want to see 3-10. 1-2 are obvious 
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On September 03 2010 11:58 TwoToneTerran wrote:
I've never been comparing the skill level of modern players to past players, just the level of domination. Things that aren't technically specific to an era. Right, but you can't disconnect the two: it takes skills to dominate, and the skills required in different eras are arguably somewhat different. Would Flash have dominated the same way he does now if he had played in Boxer's day? Would he even have been pro at all? Who knows? That sort of question is pretty much unanswerable imo.
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On September 03 2010 12:06 love1another wrote:I really want to see 3-10. 1-2 are obvious
Here's what I predict.
1-2 Depends who wins the OSL and in what fashion. If Flash wins he's #1, if he gets raped he's #2, either way if JD wins a close series.
3. Fantasy
4. Stork I guess. There's really not all that many games to judge.
5. Light
6. Kal - playing pretty good
7. Bisu ;(, he better show us his bonjwa talents and carry SKT again soon as PL starts.
8. free unless he does decent against flash, in which case he moves up above Light
9. Zero
10. Sea - hasn't been playing ad, but lost to some good players in Stork and Jaedong.
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On September 03 2010 12:21 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 12:06 love1another wrote:I really want to see 3-10. 1-2 are obvious Here's what I predict. 1-2 Depends who wins the OSL and in what fashion. If Flash wins he's #1, if he gets raped he's #2, either way if JD wins a close series. 3. Fantasy 4. Stork I guess. There's really not all that many games to judge. 5. Light 6. Kal - playing pretty good 7. Bisu ;(, he better show us his bonjwa talents and carry SKT again soon as PL starts. 8. free unless he does decent against flash, in which case he moves up above Light 9. Zero 10. Sea - hasn't been playing ad, but lost to some good players in Stork and Jaedong.
wow, i agree completely.
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Canada2480 Posts
On September 03 2010 12:24 jalstar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 12:21 Lightwip wrote:On September 03 2010 12:06 love1another wrote:I really want to see 3-10. 1-2 are obvious Here's what I predict. 1-2 Depends who wins the OSL and in what fashion. If Flash wins he's #1, if he gets raped he's #2, either way if JD wins a close series. 3. Fantasy 4. Stork I guess. There's really not all that many games to judge. 5. Light 6. Kal - playing pretty good 7. Bisu ;(, he better show us his bonjwa talents and carry SKT again soon as PL starts. 8. free unless he does decent against flash, in which case he moves up above Light 9. Zero 10. Sea - hasn't been playing ad, but lost to some good players in Stork and Jaedong. wow, i agree completely.
Light didnt play enough games in my opinion
zero at 5 imo, (12 win streak O_O)
I won't even try to make one since not enough games were played >_<
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On September 03 2010 12:42 swanized wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 12:24 jalstar wrote:On September 03 2010 12:21 Lightwip wrote:On September 03 2010 12:06 love1another wrote:I really want to see 3-10. 1-2 are obvious Here's what I predict. 1-2 Depends who wins the OSL and in what fashion. If Flash wins he's #1, if he gets raped he's #2, either way if JD wins a close series. 3. Fantasy 4. Stork I guess. There's really not all that many games to judge. 5. Light 6. Kal - playing pretty good 7. Bisu ;(, he better show us his bonjwa talents and carry SKT again soon as PL starts. 8. free unless he does decent against flash, in which case he moves up above Light 9. Zero 10. Sea - hasn't been playing ad, but lost to some good players in Stork and Jaedong. wow, i agree completely. Light didnt play enough games in my opinion zero at 5 imo, (12 win streak O_O) I won't even try to make one since not enough games were played >_<
The reason I put Zero down is because he lost pretty bad to free.
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United States13143 Posts
On September 03 2010 12:21 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 12:06 love1another wrote:I really want to see 3-10. 1-2 are obvious Here's what I predict. 1-2 Depends who wins the OSL and in what fashion. If Flash wins he's #1, if he gets raped he's #2, either way if JD wins a close series. 3. Fantasy 4. Stork I guess. There's really not all that many games to judge. 5. Light 6. Kal - playing pretty good 7. Bisu ;(, he better show us his bonjwa talents and carry SKT again soon as PL starts. 8. free unless he does decent against flash, in which case he moves up above Light 9. Zero 10. Sea - hasn't been playing ad, but lost to some good players in Stork and Jaedong.
I would put free above Light, and maybe even above Stork, no matter what, unless he gets completely dominated by Flash, since free has no truly weak matchup. His PvP used to be mediocre, but it's gotten a lot better as of late, while Light's TvP is incredibly inconsistent.
I'm also not convinced Bisu belongs at all, he's only 3-5 in August beating Action's weak ZvP and Baby, who's been sucking as of late.
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On September 03 2010 16:31 Elyvilon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 12:21 Lightwip wrote:On September 03 2010 12:06 love1another wrote:I really want to see 3-10. 1-2 are obvious Here's what I predict. 1-2 Depends who wins the OSL and in what fashion. If Flash wins he's #1, if he gets raped he's #2, either way if JD wins a close series. 3. Fantasy 4. Stork I guess. There's really not all that many games to judge. 5. Light 6. Kal - playing pretty good 7. Bisu ;(, he better show us his bonjwa talents and carry SKT again soon as PL starts. 8. free unless he does decent against flash, in which case he moves up above Light 9. Zero 10. Sea - hasn't been playing ad, but lost to some good players in Stork and Jaedong. I would put free above Light, and maybe even above Stork, no matter what, unless he gets completely dominated by Flash, since free has no truly weak matchup. His PvP used to be mediocre, but it's gotten a lot better as of late, while Light's TvP is incredibly inconsistent. I'm also not convinced Bisu belongs at all, he's only 3-5 in August beating Action's weak ZvP and Baby, who's been sucking as of late.
Bisu really just had a few bad games in my opinion, he should get better. Some damn stupid games though, no idea why.
Light TvP can be inconsistent, but he's accomplished more than free in the last month. Went further in MSL and WCG. As I said, it really depends on if free can fight Flash.
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EPT
