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On September 03 2010 21:06 TwoToneTerran wrote:
To be fair Jaedong isn't entirely winless in PL finals. I'm pretty sure he beat Iris in one of the 07 PL "finals" when they had finals for individual rounds.
Actually that doesn't interfere with what I'm saying. Jaedong back then wasn't THE Jaedong we know today. His team didn't rely on him so heavily and he wasn't so analyzed and targeted by snipers yet...like todays JD or Flash are.
edit: Just to make it clear, I wasn't trying to diss Jaedong, I was just bringing up the fact that KT lead by Flash won the PL finals. Thing that shouldn't be ignored and which is definitely more important than some WCG finals.
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On September 03 2010 21:02 L0thar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 17:01 Samurai- wrote:On September 03 2010 12:21 Lightwip wrote:On September 03 2010 12:06 love1another wrote:I really want to see 3-10. 1-2 are obvious  Here's what I predict. 1-2 Depends who wins the OSL and in what fashion. If Flash wins he's #1, if he gets raped he's #2, either way if JD wins a close series. 3. Fantasy 4. Stork I guess. There's really not all that many games to judge. 5. Light 6. Kal - playing pretty good 7. Bisu ;(, he better show us his bonjwa talents and carry SKT again soon as PL starts. 8. free unless he does decent against flash, in which case he moves up above Light 9. Zero 10. Sea - hasn't been playing ad, but lost to some good players in Stork and Jaedong. Nah, Flash should be first no matter what happens in the finals, unless he looses against free.. He basicaly won proleague in the finals, and MSL.. This should be enough for #1... It's easy to diss Flash's win saying "it's just Hyuk", but let's ask Jaedong how easy is to win against Hyuk in PL finals lol. The fact is, they were playing on the greatest stage and everybody going against Flash had a huge underdog advantage. Flash on the other hand was THE man of his team that everybody was counting on.
"Hi, my name is Hyuk, I have lost every single play-off game this season. My team is down 2-3 in the Grand Finals and is relying on me to take down the best player on earth in the more difficult match-up for my race.
But don't worry, it's no problem, because I have the UNDERDOG ADVANTAGE"
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You know what, all flash dissenters are right, he totally doesn't deserve any accolades for his team winning proleague. He was totally non-instrumental in both the finals themself and the build up to it.
sigh
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On September 03 2010 21:47 TwoToneTerran wrote:
You know what, all flash dissenters are right, he totally doesn't deserve any accolades for his team winning proleague. He was totally non-instrumental in both the finals themself and the build up to it.
sigh
See, I'd never say that.
I say Flash is the only reason KT even had the chance to be in a final. 
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It was sarcasm to put down people who want to completely ignore what Flash accomplished entirely because they don't like Flash and don't want to admit what he did in PL -- finals and regular -- was outstanding.
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Other series that "may have not been important" have traditionally been counted on power rank. Jaedong vs Flash in GSI was heavily looked at the time to put Flash above Jaedong despite it being much less important than MSL.
That particular series was huge in terms of not only Jaedong vs. Flash but SC in general, even though the event itself was technically not as important as the MSL. Both Flash and Jaedong prepared for that heavily (both had come off a stinging series of losses in the individual leagues, which had just finished - notably, Jaedong 0-3 ForGG) and was intensely hyped. Then, what proceeded was a 3-0 murder that brought 2-hatch muta timing into the spotlight, spiking ZvT winrates for the next month or so. You'd have to have been a fool to not count that in which player looks stronger.
WCG had the last game finishing with ㅋㅋㅋ from both players, who both said they were having fun and didn't practice for it due to their schedules. It should be counted for what it was - a Jaedong win in a non-serious match.
Edit: Also ForGG was #1 for that month's ranking, if I recall. So yeah, everything falls in accordance to its weight.
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On September 03 2010 22:25 Tianx wrote:Show nested quote +Other series that "may have not been important" have traditionally been counted on power rank. Jaedong vs Flash in GSI was heavily looked at the time to put Flash above Jaedong despite it being much less important than MSL. That particular series was huge in terms of not only Jaedong vs. Flash but SC in general, even though the event itself was technically not as important as the MSL. Both Flash and Jaedong prepared for that heavily (both had come off a stinging series of losses in the individual leagues, which had just finished - notably, Jaedong 0-3 ForGG) and was intensely hyped. Then, what proceeded was a 3-0 murder that brought 2-hatch muta timing into the spotlight, spiking ZvT winrates for the next month or so. You'd have to have been a fool to not count that in which player looks stronger. WCG had the last game finishing with ㅋㅋㅋ from both players, who both said they were having fun and didn't practice for it due to their schedules. It should be counted for what it was - a Jaedong win in a non-serious match. Edit: Also ForGG was #1 for that month's ranking, if I recall. So yeah, everything falls in accordance to its weight.
I was talking about the Gom Star Invitational not Gom Season 1.
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At the beginning of the last two seasons, a bunch of people said stuff like "Flash won't make dual finals this time," generally as some kind of shot against Flash as if he didn't have the natural talent, and he was just getting lucky.
I'm a Flash fan, but I didn't say "Yeah he will!" I said "Duh! Do you know how hard it is to do just once?" I thought it was completely absurd to try to hold Flash up against this standard because this had only been done three times by three different people over the last eight years. I didn't seriously expect him to do it again because it is unbelievably difficult. Even if you are a completely dominant player, statistically it is just almost impossible to work yourself through that many do-or-die stages.
Six consecutive SL finals + PL & WL. All in one year. Another gold would be nice, but Flash has already done it. He's had the best year and the best peak of any player. No offense, Nada, you still got the longevity side of GOAT, but you've been surpassed on peak.
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In this thread, people who wouldn't put Flash at #1 even if he'd won every single thing he'd entered this season (at the moment, it is possible for him to simply win 3/4 and he has reached all 4 finals, which clearly just. isn't. good enough.)
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On September 03 2010 23:10 ChaosSmurf wrote:
In this thread, people who wouldn't put Flash at #1 even if he'd won every single thing he'd entered this season (at the moment, it is possible for him to simply win 3/4 and he has reached all 4 finals, which clearly just. isn't. good enough.)
No this isn't the issu. Some flash fans want him to be #1 even if Jaedong wins the osl.
On September 03 2010 21:47 TwoToneTerran wrote:
You know what, all flash dissenters are right, he totally doesn't deserve any accolades for his team winning proleague. He was totally non-instrumental in both the finals themself and the build up to it.
sigh
You're such a troll ><
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Wow, Flash has been in literally every final for a year now. Flash truly has the greatest peak of any progamer of all time.
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On September 03 2010 23:38 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 23:10 ChaosSmurf wrote:
In this thread, people who wouldn't put Flash at #1 even if he'd won every single thing he'd entered this season (at the moment, it is possible for him to simply win 3/4 and he has reached all 4 finals, which clearly just. isn't. good enough.) No this isn't the issu. Some flash fans want him to be #1 even if Jaedong wins the osl. Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 21:47 TwoToneTerran wrote:
You know what, all flash dissenters are right, he totally doesn't deserve any accolades for his team winning proleague. He was totally non-instrumental in both the finals themself and the build up to it.
sigh You're such a troll ><
Given my post history I thought it was pretty obvious I was being sarcastic. :x
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On September 03 2010 23:38 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 23:10 ChaosSmurf wrote:
In this thread, people who wouldn't put Flash at #1 even if he'd won every single thing he'd entered this season (at the moment, it is possible for him to simply win 3/4 and he has reached all 4 finals, which clearly just. isn't. good enough.) No this isn't the issu. Some flash fans want him to be #1 even if Jaedong wins the osl.
I'm sorry, but with everything else Flash's done, he's #1 regardless of OSL finals. I'd agree with lowering to #2 if free had won, but he didn't. I'll also agree to that maybe if Jaedong completely rapes Flash in the finals. Jaedong is doing great, but Flash is simply doing better. You're all arguing about how Jaedong hasn't been showing his A game lately, and that pretty much seals the deal. He's not #1. Thinking that he could've won if he was playing at his best is pointless, because he didn't. It already happened. Flash has had a better month, a better season, and overall a better year. Also, like someone else already pointed out, WCG just can't have any weight, as both of them were playing just for fun.
Bleh, I didn't even wanna post, but it's bothering me so much.
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On September 03 2010 20:30 SuperArc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 17:54 l0st_romantic wrote:On September 03 2010 17:13 Lightwip wrote:On September 03 2010 17:01 Samurai- wrote:On September 03 2010 12:21 Lightwip wrote:On September 03 2010 12:06 love1another wrote:I really want to see 3-10. 1-2 are obvious Here's what I predict. 1-2 Depends who wins the OSL and in what fashion. If Flash wins he's #1, if he gets raped he's #2, either way if JD wins a close series. 3. Fantasy 4. Stork I guess. There's really not all that many games to judge. 5. Light 6. Kal - playing pretty good 7. Bisu ;(, he better show us his bonjwa talents and carry SKT again soon as PL starts. 8. free unless he does decent against flash, in which case he moves up above Light 9. Zero 10. Sea - hasn't been playing ad, but lost to some good players in Stork and Jaedong. Nah, Flash should be first no matter what happens in the finals, unless he looses against free.. He basicaly won proleague in the finals, and MSL.. This should be enough for #1... PL finals he beat Hyuk. Not that hard. MSL he was the better player for sure, but mostly because JD was playing like shit. At this point Flash is definitely #1, but you forgot that JD won WCG. Still, if Flash somehow becomes a mollusk then he's definitely #2. WCG doesn't really count... cause Flash lost in the final? WCG IS kespa sanctioned you know
In tournaments that REALLY count, the silver medalist doesn't smile and gg the second a ling gets into his base.
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On September 04 2010 01:11 Sirgery wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 20:30 SuperArc wrote:On September 03 2010 17:54 l0st_romantic wrote:On September 03 2010 17:13 Lightwip wrote:On September 03 2010 17:01 Samurai- wrote:On September 03 2010 12:21 Lightwip wrote:On September 03 2010 12:06 love1another wrote:I really want to see 3-10. 1-2 are obvious Here's what I predict. 1-2 Depends who wins the OSL and in what fashion. If Flash wins he's #1, if he gets raped he's #2, either way if JD wins a close series. 3. Fantasy 4. Stork I guess. There's really not all that many games to judge. 5. Light 6. Kal - playing pretty good 7. Bisu ;(, he better show us his bonjwa talents and carry SKT again soon as PL starts. 8. free unless he does decent against flash, in which case he moves up above Light 9. Zero 10. Sea - hasn't been playing ad, but lost to some good players in Stork and Jaedong. Nah, Flash should be first no matter what happens in the finals, unless he looses against free.. He basicaly won proleague in the finals, and MSL.. This should be enough for #1... PL finals he beat Hyuk. Not that hard. MSL he was the better player for sure, but mostly because JD was playing like shit. At this point Flash is definitely #1, but you forgot that JD won WCG. Still, if Flash somehow becomes a mollusk then he's definitely #2. WCG doesn't really count... cause Flash lost in the final? WCG IS kespa sanctioned you know In tournaments that REALLY count, the silver medalist doesn't smile and gg the second a ling gets into his base.
or type
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Are people REALLY trying to use the WCG finals as indicative of anything? Did these people even watch the games or read the interview?
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After this upcoming OSL, I hope to no longer see the obligatory JD/Flash position switch every other month. Flash should stay on top.
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On September 03 2010 21:47 TwoToneTerran wrote:
You know what, all flash dissenters are right, he totally doesn't deserve any accolades for his team winning proleague. He was totally non-instrumental in both the finals themself and the build up to it.
sigh
Funny how people dismiss as a 1 man team, when forgg / stats has made ro8's in starleagues all season, and stats is probally one of the progamers with least anti fans on tl compared to his skillevel.
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On September 04 2010 03:06 Iplaythings wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 21:47 TwoToneTerran wrote:
You know what, all flash dissenters are right, he totally doesn't deserve any accolades for his team winning proleague. He was totally non-instrumental in both the finals themself and the build up to it.
sigh Funny how people dismiss as a 1 man team, when forgg / stats has made ro8's in starleagues all season, and stats is probally one of the progamers with least anti fans on tl compared to his skillevel.
In past years, KT Flash has been a one man team. This year, between Violet/Lux's first round streaks, to Stats/ForGG incredible growth, KT has been a strong all-around team.
I think Jaedong Oz, however, has really been a one-man team, with a dependable 50% win-rate from Hiya. Everybody else pretty much was like not even worth playing except that you had to send somebody. 
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On September 03 2010 21:02 L0thar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 17:01 Samurai- wrote:On September 03 2010 12:21 Lightwip wrote:On September 03 2010 12:06 love1another wrote:I really want to see 3-10. 1-2 are obvious Here's what I predict. 1-2 Depends who wins the OSL and in what fashion. If Flash wins he's #1, if he gets raped he's #2, either way if JD wins a close series. 3. Fantasy 4. Stork I guess. There's really not all that many games to judge. 5. Light 6. Kal - playing pretty good 7. Bisu ;(, he better show us his bonjwa talents and carry SKT again soon as PL starts. 8. free unless he does decent against flash, in which case he moves up above Light 9. Zero 10. Sea - hasn't been playing ad, but lost to some good players in Stork and Jaedong. Nah, Flash should be first no matter what happens in the finals, unless he looses against free.. He basicaly won proleague in the finals, and MSL.. This should be enough for #1... It's easy to diss Flash's win saying "it's just Hyuk", but let's ask Jaedong how easy is to win against Hyuk in PL finals lol. The fact is, they were playing on the greatest stage and everybody going against Flash had a huge underdog advantage. Flash on the other hand was THE man of his team that everybody was counting on.
It's all relative. Hyuk had some amazing ZvZ back then (how times have changed), and following that game he went on a massive win streak, including an all kill of STX in the Master's cup. Skip forward to him vs Flash, and he's once again an extremely mediocre player who was on an extremely mdeiocre run. On top of that it's TvZ....inherent matchup imba + map imba + Flash's best matchup + hyuk's most pathetic matchup. So yes, I'm going to say it's just Hyuk. I think any semi-decent Terran in proleague could wipe the floor with hyuk
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EPT
