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Yxes2211
United States1587 Posts
 I mean not to long ago we had swarm season so my hopes are high XDMan tonight is gonna be sweet We got Effort vs Light and Jaedong vs Sea, 2 top zergs vs The best TvZ player and a top tier Terran Hoping one of them pulls some cool shit and advances :D But i'd like to avoid 2 TvT semis D: TvT is my least favorite mirror only below ZvZ since ZvZ has the luxury of being short. So hopefully Effort or JD advance :D So stoked for tonights games :D | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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SimonB
United States1088 Posts
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tree.hugger
Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On August 14 2010 09:13 TwoToneTerran wrote: Why does everyone keep saying Light is the best TvZ player? He's on a monster run but there's no reason to assume he's better at TvZ than Flash. It's ilke when Effort when on a ZvZ/ZvP run and people started saying he's better at those than Jaedong. Imo,  Light's TvZ is in the top five of terrans; worse than Flash and fantasy, and slightly better than Sea and Leta. On August 14 2010 09:21 SimonB wrote: Skyhigh keeps being called "the best TvT player" (albeit, mostly by CJ fans), when Flash has 3x as many games, a better winning percentage, and 35 points better ELO. Whoever said that isn't correct, obviously. Flash is better, and Fantasy is about even, perhaps just a tiny bit behind.Also, I'm curious—a question to the panel: Who are the best five ZvT players in BW, and in what order? + Show Spoiler + | ||
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setzer
United States3284 Posts
On August 14 2010 10:06 tree.hugger wrote: Imo, Light's TvZ is in the top five of terrans; worse than Flash and fantasy, and slightly better than Sea and Leta. Whoever said that isn't correct, obviously. Flash is better, and Fantasy is about even, perhaps just a tiny bit behind.Also, I'm curious—a question to the panel: Who are the best five ZvT players in BW, and in what order? + Show Spoiler + I wouldn't say Fantasy has better TvZ than Light. Fantasy is barely in the top5, just ahead of Leta imo. Fun fact: Fantasy has never had a streak of more than 5 games until this current one, which is a 9-game win streak. For ZvT, I would put: 1) Jaedong 2) Zero 3) Roro 4) Effort 5) Action Roro may seem odd, but he has a really underrated ZvT and does better against mech than Effort. edit: One note about Kwanro, while he does have a better win% than Roro and Action, I don't think his matchup is as developed as those. As everyone knows, Kwanro's ZvT completely falls apart if it goes past the 15 minute mark and he gets hive tech. | ||
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tree.hugger
Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On August 14 2010 10:12 setzer wrote: I wouldn't say Fantasy has better TvZ than Light. Fantasy is barely in the top5, just ahead of Leta imo. Fun fact: Fantasy has never had a streak of more than 5 games until this current one, which is a 9-game win streak. For ZvT, I would put: 1) Jaedong 2) Zero 3) Roro 4) Effort 5) Action Roro may seem odd, but he has a really underrated ZvT and does better against mech than Effort. edit: One note about Kwanro, while he does have a better win% than Roro and Action, I don't think his matchup is as developed as those. As everyone knows, Kwanro's ZvT completely falls apart if it goes past the 15 minute mark and he gets hive tech. I think EffOrt's ZvT is much better than RorO's. RorO is 3-8 against my top five terrans in the MU, with only a winning record (1-0) against Sea. Meanwhile, EffOrt is 12-16 against the same competition, but with a starleague win, a winning record against Sea and Fantasy, and a recent track record of performance against the best TvZer in the game. Also, I don't think Action's ZvT is really that good, his defiler use nonwithstanding. But I don't know who else is there. Did you know that Calm has a losing record in ZvT? Neither did I, until I looked it up. Also, I think it's close, but I think fantasy's TvZ is a little better than Light's. I can't really prove it though, it's pretty much just an opinion having watched a lot of them both. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On August 14 2010 10:06 tree.hugger wrote: Imo, Light's TvZ is in the top five of terrans; worse than Flash and fantasy, and slightly better than Sea and Leta. Whoever said that isn't correct, obviously. Flash is better, and Fantasy is about even, perhaps just a tiny bit behind.Also, I'm curious—a question to the panel: Who are the best five ZvT players in BW, and in what order? + Show Spoiler + Fantasy's TvZ better than Light's? You have got to be joking, it isn't even better than ForGG's. | ||
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Navi
5286 Posts
On August 14 2010 09:21 SimonB wrote: Skyhigh keeps being called "the best TvT player" (albeit, mostly by CJ fans), when Flash has 3x as many games, a better winning percentage, and 35 points better ELO. They say this because Skyhigh routinely beats Flash at TvT, often outplaying him straight up. Of course the issue comes up of whether you are "better" than another player at a mirror matchup just due to your record v. him, but I would say given Skyhigh's very high %, he would definetly be a very close number 2, if not number 1. But holy hell, I didn't realize it straight up (just saw the results of "flash win" and "flash win" over and over again), but Flash is back on an 11-win streak, and he may beat his 12 win streak. As of right now, I think there's no doubt as to who's gonna be #1 on the next PR :D | ||
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Navi
5286 Posts
On August 14 2010 12:19 Shikyo wrote: Fantasy's TvZ better than Light's? You have got to be joking, it isn't even better than ForGG's. I dunno, while Fantasy's on-the-fly TvZ kinda sucks compared to other notable TvZers, when he comes with lots of preparation (OSL finals, PL post season etc.) he often pulls out either very innovative or well timed builds. With these, he can take games off the best (JD, effort, etc.). I'd say that as of right now, Light is #2 TvZer: Sea #3, (I think ForGG should be #4, but he hasn't been doing too hot of late) Leta/Fanta for #4/5. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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FireGuyX
United States1712 Posts
On August 14 2010 16:18 Navi wrote: I dunno, while Fantasy's on-the-fly TvZ kinda sucks compared to other notable TvZers, when he comes with lots of preparation (OSL finals, PL post season etc.) he often pulls out either very innovative or well timed builds. With these, he can take games off the best (JD, effort, etc.). I'd say that as of right now, Light is #2 TvZer: Sea #3, (I think ForGG should be #4, but he hasn't been doing too hot of late) Leta/Fanta for #4/5. ForGG is definitely one of the best TvZ players right now, he really should have beaten Effort. And ForGG is in a slump because he had to play against Effort and Flash in a box series. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On August 14 2010 10:06 tree.hugger wrote: Imo, Light's TvZ is in the top five of terrans; worse than Flash and fantasy, and slightly better than Sea and Leta. Whoever said that isn't correct, obviously. Flash is better, and Fantasy is about even, perhaps just a tiny bit behind.Also, I'm curious—a question to the panel: Who are the best five ZvT players in BW, and in what order? + Show Spoiler + Skyhigh 3-1 Flash, 5-0 Fantasy | ||
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L0thar
987 Posts
Yes, his stats against Flash and Fantasy are impressive...on the other hand he is 2-3 vs Hyia, 2-4 vs Sea, not to mention 1-2 vs Frozen, in OSL Prelims BO3 no less. So it's not like he has number of every terran player out there. Not to take anything away from Skyhigh, his TvT is great, especially when he can prepare against players busy with individual leagues lol. Interesting is, he seems to be the only Terran with winning record against Flash? Upmagic is 3-1 as well, but he kind of isn't playing anymore. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On August 14 2010 08:53 Yxes2211 wrote: God it's a dark age for zergs right now, but it'll end sometime I mean not to long ago we had swarm season so my hopes are high XDMan tonight is gonna be sweet We got Effort vs Light and Jaedong vs Sea, 2 top zergs vs The best TvZ player and a top tier Terran Hoping one of them pulls some cool shit and advances :D But i'd like to avoid 2 TvT semis D: TvT is my least favorite mirror only below ZvZ since ZvZ has the luxury of being short. So hopefully Effort or JD advance :D So stoked for tonights games :D I don't think so at all. Right now in my opinion is (yet another) dark age for Protoss, which is why Terran seems to powerful. Recently PvT has been balanced, while T > Z and Z > P remain true. | ||
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Navi
5286 Posts
On August 15 2010 00:25 Mortality wrote: I don't think so at all. Right now in my opinion is (yet another) dark age for Protoss, which is why Terran seems to powerful. Recently PvT has been balanced, while T > Z and Z > P remain true. This seems true, and the massive protoss-fest (group D) in the OSL probably didn't help D: (although Kal was the only one lost, that still reduced the number of good protosses from like 3 -> 2 (not ignoring bisu, but his group wasn't too good for him). hmm, while Flash has seemed really good in the last week or two, if he drops the MSL to fanta and JD advances, JD will probably be #1 again :o Has there even been dual finals between the same players? I think it would be sick if JD and Flash broke some record while going dual final :3 | ||
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Navi
5286 Posts
On August 14 2010 21:27 FireGuyX wrote: ForGG is definitely one of the best TvZ players right now, he really should have beaten Effort. And ForGG is in a slump because he had to play against Effort and Flash in a box series. Yes, I do agree that ForGG's loss to effort was more due to Effort's skill rather than ForGG's shortcomings, but the same argument could be made that "If flash was playing, he would have won" just as you could say "If Hyuk was playing, ForGG would have won". He hasn't been TOO solid over the last two months (dropping games to Action, some in early game, and Hyuk) to be called better than Fantasy, who's been going on a streak (beating calm, most notably, if that still counts for anything, and effort a couple of times). I'd say that ForGG and Leta are comparable at the moment, especially since they both seem to be most at ease when they play TvZ (as said in interviews). | ||
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setzer
United States3284 Posts
Has there even been dual finals between the same players? I think it would be sick if JD and Flash broke some record while going dual final :3 Nada vs Chojja, with Nada winning both of them. Will history repeat itself? | ||
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pvzvt
Israel2097 Posts
On August 15 2010 00:51 Navi wrote: This seems true, and the massive protoss-fest (group D) in the OSL probably didn't help D: (although Kal was the only one lost, that still reduced the number of good protosses from like 3 -> 2 (not ignoring bisu, but his group wasn't too good for him). hmm, while Flash has seemed really good in the last week or two, if he drops the MSL to fanta and JD advances, JD will probably be #1 again :o Has there even been dual finals between the same players? I think it would be sick if JD and Flash broke some record while going dual final :3 you are reffering to the osl groups but its in the msl we dont have any protoss ,,, protoss are doing ok now but there was a bumpy time line of like 3 weeks ago that no protoss won a game vs t and sadly those times decided who will be in the r16 in the msl | ||
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tree.hugger
Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On August 14 2010 16:18 Navi wrote: I dunno, while Fantasy's on-the-fly TvZ kinda sucks compared to other notable TvZers, when he comes with lots of preparation (OSL finals, PL post season etc.) he often pulls out either very innovative or well timed builds. With these, he can take games off the best (JD, effort, etc.). I'd say that as of right now, Light is #2 TvZer: Sea #3, (I think ForGG should be #4, but he hasn't been doing too hot of late) Leta/Fanta for #4/5. Fantasy's bio control is nothing to write home about, but his tech play is fantastic, as is understanding of what he can and can't get away with. He has a tendency to lose in a silly fashion sometimes, but if you look at the games that matter, fantasy's builds and execution are always really really tight. I think I've seen fantasy make one or two really notable decision making mistakes in this season. (Moving out against Action being one, and that didn't cost him the game.) That's pretty impressive. I'd take fantasy in a TvZ BoX over anyone but Flash. | ||
flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
With EffOrt and Bisu out of both leagues (plus I'll argue that Bisu did not do so great during playoff finals) and Sea now eliminated in MSL, there aren't that many standard games being played this month. MSL, OSL, and PL finals, so Light beating Jaedong should give him a boost in ranking, and EffOrt and Bisu should probably drop a bit, considering they were both eliminated from their OSL group because of Action and Leta. For OSL during the remainder of this month...  Action < Eye of the Storm > Jaedong Stork < Flight-Dreamliner > Seafree < Grand Line SE > ZerOFlash < Polaris Rhapsody > LetaWeirdly enough, I don't think Jaedong or Flash losing in OSL would really affect the rankings, since the only other Power Rankers for this month in the OSL Ro8 are Sea and Stork, and they are playing each other. Whoever wins should get a boost over the other, kind of in the same sense as Light would if he beats Jaedong. Also, I think ZerO deserves one of the bottom spots on the PR next month... he's on a 10 game win streak, including ZvZ wins over both EffOrt and Jaedong in the Masters' Cup. MSL finals are going to be on the 28th of this month, so I think that's the most important thing in determining next month's number 1. Right now, Flash is on an 11-game winstreak and is looking much better than Jaedong, though if the two meet in the finals obviously the 1 and 2 spots will belong to them, with the winner taking the one spot, probably. If Fantasy beats Flash convincingly in the Bo5 coming up and Jaedong defeats Light, then whoever wins between Jaedong and Fantasy should take the one spot. Fantasy was integral to his team's success in making it to playoff finals, and it's not like he lost his match, so the team losing really can't be counted against him too much. Whoops I have really scattered thoughts. | ||
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