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Vatican City State431 Posts
On August 12 2010 12:49 Mortality wrote:
Each successive bonjwa breaks old records, many of which were set by old bonjwas and many of those records last a long time. This is one of the hallmarks of a bonjwa and its one of the reasons for excitement surrounding Flash. However, I do not at all agree that Flash even comes close to NaDa's records of maintaining high win rates. Flash's best results are all clustered around two time periods, neither one of which is all that long, although the recent one in particular has featured some pretty jaw dropping statistics. NaDa has had more steady dominance than any other player.
It's also important to note as an aside that the nature of records and their meanings changes. For instance, the value of WCG as a tournament has oscillated quite a bit over time (in the very early years where player funding came from prize money won, WCG had some worth, but that worth petered to almost nothing as sponsors started giving regular salaries, meanwhile progamers had limited interest in slugging it through a lengthy qualification process, while in recent years that process has been trimmed down considerably and now some players put some stock into it again -- although not Jaedong apparently!).
Regarding SL titles, I did not count GhemTV. Or ITV Ranking League. Or KTF Premier League. Or OGN Masters. NaDa has a total of 27 trophies next to his name. Only Boxer has more (30). Though NaDa has more gold and more wins in more important venues. Anyway, as I said, trophy count is not what makes NaDa GOAT. It's just another piece of the puzzle.
Wait! Nada 61% vAll, Flash 70% vAll..Hmm! I wonder who is the one with the best win rates...Flash is one of the most dominant players in SC! Maybe the most dominant! End of story!
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On August 12 2010 20:14 p14c wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 12:49 Mortality wrote:
Each successive bonjwa breaks old records, many of which were set by old bonjwas and many of those records last a long time. This is one of the hallmarks of a bonjwa and its one of the reasons for excitement surrounding Flash. However, I do not at all agree that Flash even comes close to NaDa's records of maintaining high win rates. Flash's best results are all clustered around two time periods, neither one of which is all that long, although the recent one in particular has featured some pretty jaw dropping statistics. NaDa has had more steady dominance than any other player.
It's also important to note as an aside that the nature of records and their meanings changes. For instance, the value of WCG as a tournament has oscillated quite a bit over time (in the very early years where player funding came from prize money won, WCG had some worth, but that worth petered to almost nothing as sponsors started giving regular salaries, meanwhile progamers had limited interest in slugging it through a lengthy qualification process, while in recent years that process has been trimmed down considerably and now some players put some stock into it again -- although not Jaedong apparently!).
Regarding SL titles, I did not count GhemTV. Or ITV Ranking League. Or KTF Premier League. Or OGN Masters. NaDa has a total of 27 trophies next to his name. Only Boxer has more (30). Though NaDa has more gold and more wins in more important venues. Anyway, as I said, trophy count is not what makes NaDa GOAT. It's just another piece of the puzzle. Wait! Nada 61% vAll, Flash 70% vAll..Hmm! I wonder who is the one with the best win rates...Flash is one of the most dominant players in SC! Maybe the most dominant! End of story!
Yes, and Stats is 57% vs all while Boxer is only 56%. Stats is more dominant than boxer.
Oh wait, no, you're an idiot.
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Flash's TvT is fucking scary again, no doubt. JD will have to do really well if he wants to keep his spot. 
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On August 12 2010 20:38 Cpadolf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 20:14 p14c wrote:On August 12 2010 12:49 Mortality wrote:
Each successive bonjwa breaks old records, many of which were set by old bonjwas and many of those records last a long time. This is one of the hallmarks of a bonjwa and its one of the reasons for excitement surrounding Flash. However, I do not at all agree that Flash even comes close to NaDa's records of maintaining high win rates. Flash's best results are all clustered around two time periods, neither one of which is all that long, although the recent one in particular has featured some pretty jaw dropping statistics. NaDa has had more steady dominance than any other player.
It's also important to note as an aside that the nature of records and their meanings changes. For instance, the value of WCG as a tournament has oscillated quite a bit over time (in the very early years where player funding came from prize money won, WCG had some worth, but that worth petered to almost nothing as sponsors started giving regular salaries, meanwhile progamers had limited interest in slugging it through a lengthy qualification process, while in recent years that process has been trimmed down considerably and now some players put some stock into it again -- although not Jaedong apparently!).
Regarding SL titles, I did not count GhemTV. Or ITV Ranking League. Or KTF Premier League. Or OGN Masters. NaDa has a total of 27 trophies next to his name. Only Boxer has more (30). Though NaDa has more gold and more wins in more important venues. Anyway, as I said, trophy count is not what makes NaDa GOAT. It's just another piece of the puzzle. Wait! Nada 61% vAll, Flash 70% vAll..Hmm! I wonder who is the one with the best win rates...Flash is one of the most dominant players in SC! Maybe the most dominant! End of story! Yes, and Stats is 57% vs all while Boxer is only 56%. Stats is more dominant than boxer. Oh wait, no, you're an idiot.
Way to counter a bad argument with an even worse one. Flash has played almost as many games as Nada. Stats has played a fraction of the games Boxer did. It's not that unreasonable to look at Flash/Jaedong's careers and say that they're up there with Nada. Flash will have a couple more titles within the next year and Jaedong might too - it's getting close to that time where someone hits Nada's mark.
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Vatican City State431 Posts
On August 12 2010 20:38 Cpadolf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 20:14 p14c wrote:On August 12 2010 12:49 Mortality wrote:
Each successive bonjwa breaks old records, many of which were set by old bonjwas and many of those records last a long time. This is one of the hallmarks of a bonjwa and its one of the reasons for excitement surrounding Flash. However, I do not at all agree that Flash even comes close to NaDa's records of maintaining high win rates. Flash's best results are all clustered around two time periods, neither one of which is all that long, although the recent one in particular has featured some pretty jaw dropping statistics. NaDa has had more steady dominance than any other player.
It's also important to note as an aside that the nature of records and their meanings changes. For instance, the value of WCG as a tournament has oscillated quite a bit over time (in the very early years where player funding came from prize money won, WCG had some worth, but that worth petered to almost nothing as sponsors started giving regular salaries, meanwhile progamers had limited interest in slugging it through a lengthy qualification process, while in recent years that process has been trimmed down considerably and now some players put some stock into it again -- although not Jaedong apparently!).
Regarding SL titles, I did not count GhemTV. Or ITV Ranking League. Or KTF Premier League. Or OGN Masters. NaDa has a total of 27 trophies next to his name. Only Boxer has more (30). Though NaDa has more gold and more wins in more important venues. Anyway, as I said, trophy count is not what makes NaDa GOAT. It's just another piece of the puzzle. Wait! Nada 61% vAll, Flash 70% vAll..Hmm! I wonder who is the one with the best win rates...Flash is one of the most dominant players in SC! Maybe the most dominant! End of story! Yes, and Stats is 57% vs all while Boxer is only 56%. Stats is more dominant than boxer. Oh wait, no, you're an idiot.
Stats is a new player so his win rate doesn't count as much! Also he never advanced too high in the individual leagues. But Nada vs Flash is another story! They both proved themselves "smart-guy"!
BTW: Mortality said "I do not at all agree that Flash even comes close to NaDa's records of maintaining high win rates" so I replied to this. They don't call him Terminator for nothing. He plays like a machine! 
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On August 12 2010 20:49 darktreb wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 20:38 Cpadolf wrote:On August 12 2010 20:14 p14c wrote:On August 12 2010 12:49 Mortality wrote:
Each successive bonjwa breaks old records, many of which were set by old bonjwas and many of those records last a long time. This is one of the hallmarks of a bonjwa and its one of the reasons for excitement surrounding Flash. However, I do not at all agree that Flash even comes close to NaDa's records of maintaining high win rates. Flash's best results are all clustered around two time periods, neither one of which is all that long, although the recent one in particular has featured some pretty jaw dropping statistics. NaDa has had more steady dominance than any other player.
It's also important to note as an aside that the nature of records and their meanings changes. For instance, the value of WCG as a tournament has oscillated quite a bit over time (in the very early years where player funding came from prize money won, WCG had some worth, but that worth petered to almost nothing as sponsors started giving regular salaries, meanwhile progamers had limited interest in slugging it through a lengthy qualification process, while in recent years that process has been trimmed down considerably and now some players put some stock into it again -- although not Jaedong apparently!).
Regarding SL titles, I did not count GhemTV. Or ITV Ranking League. Or KTF Premier League. Or OGN Masters. NaDa has a total of 27 trophies next to his name. Only Boxer has more (30). Though NaDa has more gold and more wins in more important venues. Anyway, as I said, trophy count is not what makes NaDa GOAT. It's just another piece of the puzzle. Wait! Nada 61% vAll, Flash 70% vAll..Hmm! I wonder who is the one with the best win rates...Flash is one of the most dominant players in SC! Maybe the most dominant! End of story! Yes, and Stats is 57% vs all while Boxer is only 56%. Stats is more dominant than boxer. Oh wait, no, you're an idiot. Way to counter a bad argument with an even worse one. Flash has played almost as many games as Nada. Stats has played a fraction of the games Boxer did. It's not that unreasonable to look at Flash/Jaedong's careers and say that they're up there with Nada. Flash will have a couple more titles within the next year and Jaedong might too - it's getting close to that time where someone hits Nada's mark.
lol
Standard games played (Nada) : 439+290 = 729
Standard games played (Flash) : 321+128 = 449
Nada's played almost 65% more games. Surely you don't consider that "almost as many games as Nada"... Don't compare this to Stats vs. Boxer, which admittedly is an even worse ratio. What you said is still ridiculously absurd.
Imo, It's still unreasonable to claim Jaedong is the GOAT and even more so for Flash with Nada around. I really don't think there will be enough starleagues around for either of them to remove that opinion, but if there are, matching Nada's six, imo, would not be ample purely because of how long Nada was around as among if not the best in the world.
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By the way, Flash just waltzed past Bisu and JD's ELO peak again, just weeks after JD was ahead of him for a couple of days.
It's just become kind of humdrum, but that is not easy to do.
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I wonder if he will be able to get back to 2400. And when was the last time his elo was below 2300?
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On August 12 2010 20:56 p14c wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 20:38 Cpadolf wrote:On August 12 2010 20:14 p14c wrote:On August 12 2010 12:49 Mortality wrote:
Each successive bonjwa breaks old records, many of which were set by old bonjwas and many of those records last a long time. This is one of the hallmarks of a bonjwa and its one of the reasons for excitement surrounding Flash. However, I do not at all agree that Flash even comes close to NaDa's records of maintaining high win rates. Flash's best results are all clustered around two time periods, neither one of which is all that long, although the recent one in particular has featured some pretty jaw dropping statistics. NaDa has had more steady dominance than any other player.
It's also important to note as an aside that the nature of records and their meanings changes. For instance, the value of WCG as a tournament has oscillated quite a bit over time (in the very early years where player funding came from prize money won, WCG had some worth, but that worth petered to almost nothing as sponsors started giving regular salaries, meanwhile progamers had limited interest in slugging it through a lengthy qualification process, while in recent years that process has been trimmed down considerably and now some players put some stock into it again -- although not Jaedong apparently!).
Regarding SL titles, I did not count GhemTV. Or ITV Ranking League. Or KTF Premier League. Or OGN Masters. NaDa has a total of 27 trophies next to his name. Only Boxer has more (30). Though NaDa has more gold and more wins in more important venues. Anyway, as I said, trophy count is not what makes NaDa GOAT. It's just another piece of the puzzle. Wait! Nada 61% vAll, Flash 70% vAll..Hmm! I wonder who is the one with the best win rates...Flash is one of the most dominant players in SC! Maybe the most dominant! End of story! Yes, and Stats is 57% vs all while Boxer is only 56%. Stats is more dominant than boxer. Oh wait, no, you're an idiot. Stats is a new player so his win rate doesn't count as much! Also he never advanced too high in the individual leagues. But Nada vs Flash is another story! They both proved themselves "smart-guy"! BTW: Mortality said "I do not at all agree that Flash even comes close to NaDa's records of maintaining high win rates" so I replied to this. They don't call him Terminator for nothing. He plays like a machine!
At the time NaDa Gold Grand Slammed, he also had 71% lifetime wins. Since then he has dropped to 60% lifetime wins... after more than 9 years of professional gaming.
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On August 13 2010 00:26 Lebesgue wrote:
I wonder if he will be able to get back to 2400. And when was the last time his elo was below 2300?
last august or some shit :O
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Also, what people fail to realize here is that it's impossible to really compare the skills of players nowadays with players back then. The only thing you can do is compare what they did, and how they influenced the game. NaDa is the GOAT. Closest to him is Jaedong. FlaSh is just a few SL's behind.
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Honestly people, what's the point in comparing the career of a player who's still in his prime with one who's basically retired? Nada's been around forever and been great pretty much the whole time. Of course his career achievements are better than Flash's, who's only been around a couple of years.
Obviously it's fun talking about who's the GOAT but you gotta wait until Flash's career has lasted longer before you can really say anything meaningful 
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On August 12 2010 21:15 LucasWoJ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 20:49 darktreb wrote:On August 12 2010 20:38 Cpadolf wrote:On August 12 2010 20:14 p14c wrote:On August 12 2010 12:49 Mortality wrote:
Each successive bonjwa breaks old records, many of which were set by old bonjwas and many of those records last a long time. This is one of the hallmarks of a bonjwa and its one of the reasons for excitement surrounding Flash. However, I do not at all agree that Flash even comes close to NaDa's records of maintaining high win rates. Flash's best results are all clustered around two time periods, neither one of which is all that long, although the recent one in particular has featured some pretty jaw dropping statistics. NaDa has had more steady dominance than any other player.
It's also important to note as an aside that the nature of records and their meanings changes. For instance, the value of WCG as a tournament has oscillated quite a bit over time (in the very early years where player funding came from prize money won, WCG had some worth, but that worth petered to almost nothing as sponsors started giving regular salaries, meanwhile progamers had limited interest in slugging it through a lengthy qualification process, while in recent years that process has been trimmed down considerably and now some players put some stock into it again -- although not Jaedong apparently!).
Regarding SL titles, I did not count GhemTV. Or ITV Ranking League. Or KTF Premier League. Or OGN Masters. NaDa has a total of 27 trophies next to his name. Only Boxer has more (30). Though NaDa has more gold and more wins in more important venues. Anyway, as I said, trophy count is not what makes NaDa GOAT. It's just another piece of the puzzle. Wait! Nada 61% vAll, Flash 70% vAll..Hmm! I wonder who is the one with the best win rates...Flash is one of the most dominant players in SC! Maybe the most dominant! End of story! Yes, and Stats is 57% vs all while Boxer is only 56%. Stats is more dominant than boxer. Oh wait, no, you're an idiot. Way to counter a bad argument with an even worse one. Flash has played almost as many games as Nada. Stats has played a fraction of the games Boxer did. It's not that unreasonable to look at Flash/Jaedong's careers and say that they're up there with Nada. Flash will have a couple more titles within the next year and Jaedong might too - it's getting close to that time where someone hits Nada's mark. lol Standard games played (Nada) : 439+290 = 729 Standard games played (Flash) : 321+128 = 449 Nada's played almost 65% more games. Surely you don't consider that "almost as many games as Nada"... Don't compare this to Stats vs. Boxer, which admittedly is an even worse ratio. What you said is still ridiculously absurd. Imo, It's still unreasonable to claim Jaedong is the GOAT and even more so for Flash with Nada around. I really don't think there will be enough starleagues around for either of them to remove that opinion, but if there are, matching Nada's six, imo, would not be ample purely because of how long Nada was around as among if not the best in the world.
Almost as many was poor choice of words by me. I should have said that both have played a TON of games. Nada has played the most ever by a healthy margin, but Flash is already up there (top 10 I believe?) in terms of games played. To whip out Stats vs Boxer as a reason why comparing win-rates is bad is still a terrible argument. How about taking the first 450 games of Nada's career and comparing that to Flash? Then you'd get a better argument (and a closer win ratio between the two).
Fact of the matter is however, no one has come close to having 70+% (overall, plus in all matchups) after this many games in SC history.
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On August 13 2010 04:25 darktreb wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 21:15 LucasWoJ wrote:On August 12 2010 20:49 darktreb wrote:On August 12 2010 20:38 Cpadolf wrote:On August 12 2010 20:14 p14c wrote:On August 12 2010 12:49 Mortality wrote:
Each successive bonjwa breaks old records, many of which were set by old bonjwas and many of those records last a long time. This is one of the hallmarks of a bonjwa and its one of the reasons for excitement surrounding Flash. However, I do not at all agree that Flash even comes close to NaDa's records of maintaining high win rates. Flash's best results are all clustered around two time periods, neither one of which is all that long, although the recent one in particular has featured some pretty jaw dropping statistics. NaDa has had more steady dominance than any other player.
It's also important to note as an aside that the nature of records and their meanings changes. For instance, the value of WCG as a tournament has oscillated quite a bit over time (in the very early years where player funding came from prize money won, WCG had some worth, but that worth petered to almost nothing as sponsors started giving regular salaries, meanwhile progamers had limited interest in slugging it through a lengthy qualification process, while in recent years that process has been trimmed down considerably and now some players put some stock into it again -- although not Jaedong apparently!).
Regarding SL titles, I did not count GhemTV. Or ITV Ranking League. Or KTF Premier League. Or OGN Masters. NaDa has a total of 27 trophies next to his name. Only Boxer has more (30). Though NaDa has more gold and more wins in more important venues. Anyway, as I said, trophy count is not what makes NaDa GOAT. It's just another piece of the puzzle. Wait! Nada 61% vAll, Flash 70% vAll..Hmm! I wonder who is the one with the best win rates...Flash is one of the most dominant players in SC! Maybe the most dominant! End of story! Yes, and Stats is 57% vs all while Boxer is only 56%. Stats is more dominant than boxer. Oh wait, no, you're an idiot. Way to counter a bad argument with an even worse one. Flash has played almost as many games as Nada. Stats has played a fraction of the games Boxer did. It's not that unreasonable to look at Flash/Jaedong's careers and say that they're up there with Nada. Flash will have a couple more titles within the next year and Jaedong might too - it's getting close to that time where someone hits Nada's mark. lol Standard games played (Nada) : 439+290 = 729 Standard games played (Flash) : 321+128 = 449 Nada's played almost 65% more games. Surely you don't consider that "almost as many games as Nada"... Don't compare this to Stats vs. Boxer, which admittedly is an even worse ratio. What you said is still ridiculously absurd. Imo, It's still unreasonable to claim Jaedong is the GOAT and even more so for Flash with Nada around. I really don't think there will be enough starleagues around for either of them to remove that opinion, but if there are, matching Nada's six, imo, would not be ample purely because of how long Nada was around as among if not the best in the world. Fact of the matter is however, no one has come close to having 70+% (overall, plus in all matchups) after this many games in SC history.
I see you in all matchups specification, nevermind
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On August 12 2010 20:49 darktreb wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 20:38 Cpadolf wrote:On August 12 2010 20:14 p14c wrote:On August 12 2010 12:49 Mortality wrote:
Each successive bonjwa breaks old records, many of which were set by old bonjwas and many of those records last a long time. This is one of the hallmarks of a bonjwa and its one of the reasons for excitement surrounding Flash. However, I do not at all agree that Flash even comes close to NaDa's records of maintaining high win rates. Flash's best results are all clustered around two time periods, neither one of which is all that long, although the recent one in particular has featured some pretty jaw dropping statistics. NaDa has had more steady dominance than any other player.
It's also important to note as an aside that the nature of records and their meanings changes. For instance, the value of WCG as a tournament has oscillated quite a bit over time (in the very early years where player funding came from prize money won, WCG had some worth, but that worth petered to almost nothing as sponsors started giving regular salaries, meanwhile progamers had limited interest in slugging it through a lengthy qualification process, while in recent years that process has been trimmed down considerably and now some players put some stock into it again -- although not Jaedong apparently!).
Regarding SL titles, I did not count GhemTV. Or ITV Ranking League. Or KTF Premier League. Or OGN Masters. NaDa has a total of 27 trophies next to his name. Only Boxer has more (30). Though NaDa has more gold and more wins in more important venues. Anyway, as I said, trophy count is not what makes NaDa GOAT. It's just another piece of the puzzle. Wait! Nada 61% vAll, Flash 70% vAll..Hmm! I wonder who is the one with the best win rates...Flash is one of the most dominant players in SC! Maybe the most dominant! End of story! Yes, and Stats is 57% vs all while Boxer is only 56%. Stats is more dominant than boxer. Oh wait, no, you're an idiot. Way to counter a bad argument with an even worse one. Flash has played almost as many games as Nada. Stats has played a fraction of the games Boxer did. It's not that unreasonable to look at Flash/Jaedong's careers and say that they're up there with Nada. Flash will have a couple more titles within the next year and Jaedong might too - it's getting close to that time where someone hits Nada's mark.
I just pulled an extreme example to show that its stupid to compare the overall winrates of two players entire careers when one of them hasn't been at the top for years, as well as that it is pointless to just look at winrates. I'm not saying that comparing the career percentages of Flash and NaDa is as stupid as comparing them for Stats and Boxer btw, just that it is still stupid.
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Canada2480 Posts
just for laughs
Kt icons: 6
Oz : 3
CJ: 2
Wemade: 1
Stars (stars proleague champ 2010-11): 1
LISTENING TO KT FANS NEVER GETS OLD 
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How about taking the first 450 games of Nada's career and comparing that to Flash? Then you'd get a better argument (and a closer win ratio between the two).
Fact of the matter is however, no one has come close to having 70+% (overall, plus in all matchups) after this many games in SC history.
Around 450 games mark:
Nada: 68.26%
Stats
Jaedong: 69.13%
Stats
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On August 13 2010 07:54 bluetrolls wrote:Show nested quote +How about taking the first 450 games of Nada's career and comparing that to Flash? Then you'd get a better argument (and a closer win ratio between the two).
Fact of the matter is however, no one has come close to having 70+% (overall, plus in all matchups) after this many games in SC history. Around 450 games mark: Nada: 68.26% StatsJaedong: 69.13% Stats
He said 70% in all mu's, I also got tripped up. Also you're breaking the format, try using the [url.=][/url] or copy paste and edit how I quote you
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Come on, its not even close. Nada is the GOAT until Jaedong or Flash eventually earns more titles. And even then it will be always be debatable.
-72 months at top32 Kespa
-16 months striaght #1 Kespa
-6 SL titles
-Has played over 1000 televised games and even way past his prime he has a better winrate than most progamers ever achieve
-Only player to even win two titles in the same season
And thats just breaking the ice on his many short term and long term achievements. What I think is truly the most amazing accomplishment of Nada's is he won his last OSL 5 years after his first major win against Boxer.
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I take my eye off Flash for just a little bit and he's back with a WWWWWWWWWW past 10 games record.
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EPT
