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Canada2480 Posts
On August 11 2010 16:10 Iplaythings wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 15:56 raga4ka wrote:On August 11 2010 15:37 johanes wrote:
If flash wins this WCG he is goat and bonwja and >ESPORTS, nobody can deny that He won't be goat . Nada and Jaedong still have more titles then him . they NEVER made it to every finals of a season. Flæsh won 4/6 of them, (So far, where 6/8 is possible, even though it's probally gonna be 1 lose 1 win final again lol.). Not nessescarily GOAT but 100% best of the 09/10 season is flash, noone has been as consistent and dominating this season. The only time where flash looked insecure and slumping was during his ace match failure run,
I don't think anyone can deny that Flash was the top dog of 09-10
looks like it is shaping up for flash at number 1 again T_T
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Yeah especially with Jaedong after getting #1 again playing a bit shitty in his first 3 games lol. common Jaedong pull it together and win both osl and msl this season be the first player ever to do it :D
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On August 11 2010 16:10 Iplaythings wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 15:56 raga4ka wrote:On August 11 2010 15:37 johanes wrote:
If flash wins this WCG he is goat and bonwja and >ESPORTS, nobody can deny that He won't be goat . Nada and Jaedong still have more titles then him . they NEVER made it to every finals of a season. Flæsh won 4/6 of them, (So far, where 6/8 is possible, even though it's probally gonna be 1 lose 1 win final again lol.). Not nessescarily GOAT but 100% best of the 09/10 season is flash, noone has been as consistent and dominating this season. The only time where flash looked insecure and slumping was during his ace match failure run,
If by season you mean an individual league season, then Nada's won 3 in a season :O Yes, won, not just make the finals.
If by PL season, then Flash has only gotten 2/4 these past two SL seasons. I'm not sure what you're saying tbh.
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Personally I think it's much more impressive making consecutive dual finals and winning half than making consecutive single finals and winning them all.
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Saying that Flash is GOAT because of his recent dominance is as stupid as saying that Spain is GOAT in football for winning both the european cup 08 and the world cup this year.
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On August 11 2010 20:15 StylishVODs wrote:
Personally I think it's much more impressive making consecutive dual finals and winning half than making consecutive single finals and winning them all.
Except that Flash must wrest the title from Nada who made dual finals and won them. True he didn't make consecutive dual finals, but Nada is just crazy. Flash has a while to go before he makes it to Nada's level for best career ever.
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On August 11 2010 17:10 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 16:10 Iplaythings wrote:On August 11 2010 15:56 raga4ka wrote:On August 11 2010 15:37 johanes wrote:
If flash wins this WCG he is goat and bonwja and >ESPORTS, nobody can deny that He won't be goat . Nada and Jaedong still have more titles then him . they NEVER made it to every finals of a season. Flæsh won 4/6 of them, (So far, where 6/8 is possible, even though it's probally gonna be 1 lose 1 win final again lol.). Not nessescarily GOAT but 100% best of the 09/10 season is flash, noone has been as consistent and dominating this season. The only time where flash looked insecure and slumping was during his ace match failure run, If by season you mean an individual league season, then Nada's won 3 in a season :O Yes, won, not just make the finals. If by PL season, then Flash has only gotten 2/4 these past two SL seasons. I'm not sure what you're saying tbh.
Which 3 individual leagues it were? I though Nada won 2 in a season.
And I guess he is refering to this PL season. During it, there were (started and ended) 6 finals - 2 OSL, 2 MSL, Winners league finals and PL finals. Flash was in every single one of them and won 4 of them. Yes, WL and PL are team leagues, but only fool would deny that KT won them mainly thanks to Flash. I believe it's the best season of every progamer ever, just think about it...every single final this whole season, that's ubelievable
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On August 11 2010 17:10 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 16:10 Iplaythings wrote:On August 11 2010 15:56 raga4ka wrote:On August 11 2010 15:37 johanes wrote:
If flash wins this WCG he is goat and bonwja and >ESPORTS, nobody can deny that He won't be goat . Nada and Jaedong still have more titles then him . they NEVER made it to every finals of a season. Flæsh won 4/6 of them, (So far, where 6/8 is possible, even though it's probally gonna be 1 lose 1 win final again lol.). Not nessescarily GOAT but 100% best of the 09/10 season is flash, noone has been as consistent and dominating this season. The only time where flash looked insecure and slumping was during his ace match failure run, If by season you mean an individual league season, then Nada's won 3 in a season :O Yes, won, not just make the finals. If by PL season, then Flash has only gotten 2/4 these past two SL seasons. I'm not sure what you're saying tbh.
WL, SPL, Ever OSL, Nate MSL, korean air OSL 1, Hanna Daetoo MSL is what I meant and when I talk "season" i mean year, if you count gomtv its even more... (but now I only counted "KeSPA" sanctioned events.
Nada didnt make all of them. Even though he's still the only who won 2 individual leagues at the same time.
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NaDa won 2002-2003 Baskin Robbins MSL, 2002-2003 Panasonic OSL and 2003 GhemTV SL all at the same time (GhemTV was an actual "Starleague" in every sense of the word -- a different tv channel that was competing with OnGameNet and MBC Game, but it went bankrupt in late 2003/early 2004). This is the famous "Gold Grand Slam," a feat no one else has ever achieved.
NaDa also went Gold/Silver in You Are the Golf King MSL and IOPS OSL, again both in the same season.
And what makes NaDa so great isn't that he's won 6 Starleagues or that he made 10 finals. It's not that he Gold Grand Slammed. It isn't that he spent 8 years in the KeSPA top 30 and most of that time in the top 5.
What makes NaDa the GOAT is that he has risen up to challenge the throne of both of the bonjwas who came after him. The YATGK/IOPS run was right after Oov won Ever 2004 OSL. Then NaDa challenged Savior by winning Shinhan-2 OSL then facing Savior in Shinhan-3 OSL. He lost, but came back to win over Savior in OGN Masters a month later, making him the first Terran to win a bo5 over Matler.
When you consider both his dominance (new records set, high win rates over lengthy time period, tournament achievements, etc.) and his influence on the metagame, Jaedong and Flash don't come close. And with SC2 already out, it's unclear if they will ever even have the chance to vie for that throne.
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I agree that Nada is too far away beyond everybody to really call Flash the best ever.
However, unless Flash flames out pretty quickly these last four months, I'd say fairly comfortably he's had the best year ever.
Of course, there are too many zerg fans to ever acknowledge him as bonjwa, even though he's probably already had a better career than Savior (betting or no betting), and certainly a better peak
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I'ts hard to define "greatest" but I think it's important winning a lot of starleagues and at this point there are several people far ahead of Flash in that matter
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Yes Nada is a beast; yes, Flash is amazing, but the more important question here is... WHEN WILL MAGIKARP EVER MAKE THE PR? T_T
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United States8841 Posts
On August 12 2010 03:16 Loffeman wrote:
I'ts hard to define "greatest" but I think it's important winning a lot of starleagues and at this point there are several people far ahead of Flash in that matter
If by several you mean 4. (Nada 6, Jaedong 5, Oov 5, Savior 4, Flash 3, Boxer 3, Bisu 3).
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On August 12 2010 07:48 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 03:16 Loffeman wrote:
I'ts hard to define "greatest" but I think it's important winning a lot of starleagues and at this point there are several people far ahead of Flash in that matter If by several you mean 4. (Nada 6, Jaedong 5, Oov 5, Savior 4, Flash 3, Boxer 3, Bisu 3).
3 Bonjwa's and his greatest rival, he's for sure among good company.
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On August 12 2010 01:18 Mortality wrote:
When you consider both his dominance (new records set, high win rates over lengthy time period, tournament achievements, etc.) and his influence on the metagame, Jaedong and Flash don't come close. And with SC2 already out, it's unclear if they will ever even have the chance to vie for that throne.
Ofcourse I agree that you can't compare Flash's career with NaDa's but when talking about new records set and high winrates over lengthy time period I think Flash is ahead of Nada.
Saying that he doesn't come close is abit unfair.
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United States8841 Posts
Flash has broken more records than anyone if only because of how good he was for his age. He's still behind Nada though because Nada won four titles by the time he was Flash's age and Flash has only won 3. Now Flash could go on to be the first 18 year old with 5 titles if he wins 2 within the next like, 4 years I think? Something like that.
I think Flash will eventually surpass Nada if BW lasts. If you want to count Ghemtv you might as well count GOMs, too, which Flash has 2 of.
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You could just count their entire achievements list then.
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United States8841 Posts
On August 12 2010 10:55 Avidkeystamper wrote:
You could just count their entire achievements list then.
Which is why it's simpler to just use major leagues. Leagues that have died aren't at the same level obviously.
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Each successive bonjwa breaks old records, many of which were set by old bonjwas and many of those records last a long time. This is one of the hallmarks of a bonjwa and its one of the reasons for excitement surrounding Flash. However, I do not at all agree that Flash even comes close to NaDa's records of maintaining high win rates. Flash's best results are all clustered around two time periods, neither one of which is all that long, although the recent one in particular has featured some pretty jaw dropping statistics. NaDa has had more steady dominance than any other player.
It's also important to note as an aside that the nature of records and their meanings changes. For instance, the value of WCG as a tournament has oscillated quite a bit over time (in the very early years where player funding came from prize money won, WCG had some worth, but that worth petered to almost nothing as sponsors started giving regular salaries, meanwhile progamers had limited interest in slugging it through a lengthy qualification process, while in recent years that process has been trimmed down considerably and now some players put some stock into it again -- although not Jaedong apparently!).
Regarding SL titles, I did not count GhemTV. Or ITV Ranking League. Or KTF Premier League. Or OGN Masters. NaDa has a total of 27 trophies next to his name. Only Boxer has more (30). Though NaDa has more gold and more wins in more important venues. Anyway, as I said, trophy count is not what makes NaDa GOAT. It's just another piece of the puzzle.
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EPT
