• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 05:57
CEST 11:57
KST 18:57
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915Serral wins Maestros of the Game 243ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12
Community News
Weekly Cups (Aug 3-9): Protoss get shut out7RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-2212Weekly Cups (July 27-Aug 2): SHIN's big week0SC4ALL II: Brood War - $2500 - Dec 5-69SC4ALL II announced - $10,000 prize pool, Dec 5-64
StarCraft 2
General
https://www.facebook.com/Eco.Fuel.Reviews/ Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) Protoss AoE skill expression Weekly Cups (Aug 3-9): Protoss get shut out SC4ALL: II Talent Announcement!
Tourneys
PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August) 2026 KungFu Cup Announcement Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-22 RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
u4gm Diablo 4: QoL Secrets for Faster Gameplay u4gm POE2 Frostbolt Build: A Powerful Boss Killer U4GM CFB 27 Guide: Why UTSA’s Offense Is So Danger Mutation # 538 Media Blackout
Brood War
General
ASL22 General Discussion BW General Discussion [Personal Project Share] Terran Defense v0.60 BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ StarCraft 64 is coming to Philly at SC4ALL II
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3 2v2v2v2 Tournament Escore Tournament - Season 3
Strategy
Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Fighting Spirit mining rates Any training maps people recommend? Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread EVE Corporation General RTS Discussion Thread Diablo 2 thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread The Letting Off Steam Thread Iain M Banks Says He Has Cancer And Months To Live Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread Series you have seen recently... [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
Are High-Level Gamers more A…
TrAiDoS
Cathedral Of CS And NY pizza a…
FuDDx
Please support my new stand…
Peanutsc
Hello guys!
LIN1s
ASL S22 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 3300 users

Power Rank 07/02/2010 - Page 48

Forum Index > Polls & Liquibet
Post a Reply
Prev 1 46 47 48 49 50 55 Next
okum
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
France5779 Posts
July 29 2010 15:44 GMT
#941
On July 30 2010 00:25 WWJDD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 29 2010 22:25 okum wrote:
I hope no one gets the idea that Calm should be allowed anywhere near the PR, by the way.


Even if he puts the beatdown on SKT?

Let's restrict the discussion to plausible scenarios.
Flash fan before it was cool | Coiner of "jangbang"
Nick_54
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States2230 Posts
July 29 2010 16:24 GMT
#942
"I have a strong belief that the games a player loses tells you a lot more about his skill level than the games where he wins." Maybe Kal deserves a spot?

I wonder what Plexa will put more weight on for Bisu's ranking the ro16 games or the proleague playoffs? Personally I would put more weight on proleague, because these playoffs only come around once a year, but I may be biased in this case.
Avidkeystamper
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States8556 Posts
July 29 2010 16:29 GMT
#943
Well, both leagues show the same Bisu, an aggressive PvZ, an immaculate PvP, and a confusing PvT.
Jaedong
tree.hugger
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-29 17:56:55
July 29 2010 17:54 GMT
#944
On July 29 2010 14:57 n.DieJokes wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 29 2010 14:26 jalstar wrote:
On July 29 2010 08:17 okum wrote:
On July 29 2010 06:53 n.DieJokes wrote:
On a totally unrelated note Effort is crap terrible and I want him off the pr. Sure he wins some but his game quality is bad

Off the PR may be too much, but he doesn't necessarily belong in top 5. Granted, he has a lot of wins, but he lost two of the most important games this month (playoffs ace match and the first OSL set against a supposedly inferior opponent). As you say, even the games he won haven't been very impressive.


The game against Flash was air-tight. Absolutely perfect play, despite Flash's slump he didn't rely on Flash making a mistake.

Well, sort of. I think his build was genius but its was pretty gimicky. He basically played FlaSh and grabbed a huge advantage and all credit to him for pulling out the w but it didn't really impress me. A better indicator of his ZvT skill is his game vs Midas which felt underwhelming to me just because Midas played such a crap early to midgame. I think Waxangel put it best in the most recent podcast that Effort is really good when he gets an advantage but he really has to work to get that edge.
Show nested quote +
On July 29 2010 09:04 Elroi wrote:
On July 29 2010 08:17 okum wrote:
On July 29 2010 06:53 n.DieJokes wrote:
On a totally unrelated note Effort is crap terrible and I want him off the pr. Sure he wins some but his game quality is bad

Off the PR may be too much, but he doesn't necessarily belong in top 5. Granted, he has a lot of wins, but he lost two of the most important games this month (playoffs ace match and the first OSL set against a supposedly inferior opponent). As you say, even the games he won haven't been very impressive.


Joke's comment was just an example of a generic stupid comment that would make people rage. Effort has been playing very well recently. Anyone can drop a zvz and that game against Fantasy wasn't even an in-game mistake, he just thought the wall wasn't ling tight.

I completely count his game against Fantasy against him, I sick of his stupid shenanigans. If he wasn't 100% confident that wall was bad he should have had faith in his straight up ZvT. I can't remember the last time effort beat a really solid Terran with pure standard 3 hatch muta->lurk->deflier (sorry Midas, play better)

You've totally twisted and turned the facts to suit your argument. There are no accidents in BW (well, okay, canceling storm during a hydra bust, maybe) but EffOrt completely worked over Flash in the battle of the mind-games, and that's a critical part of your play. Midas is a regular A-teamer with reliable TvZ, and EffOrt screwed him over with lings and lurkers. And saying EffOrt didn't have confidence in his ZvT against fantasy is silly, if your opponent 14 cc's, and you 9 pool, should you wait until your opponent has enough defense before attacking, because you want to demonstrate your muta micro would've beaten him anyway?

You take calculated risks all the time in BW, and EffOrt's one of the best at it. With fantasy already #3, I don't see EffOrt giving ground to any of the players behind him, barring a total catastrophe against Midas.

I can think of one recent non-ZvZ where EffOrt came from behind, and that's his game against fantasy on Fighting Spirit. But players like Jaedong, Flash, fantasy, EffOrt, they rarely start at a disadvantage to begin with.

On July 30 2010 01:24 Nick_54 wrote:
"I have a strong belief that the games a player loses tells you a lot more about his skill level than the games where he wins." Maybe Kal deserves a spot?

I wonder what Plexa will put more weight on for Bisu's ranking the ro16 games or the proleague playoffs? Personally I would put more weight on proleague, because these playoffs only come around once a year, but I may be biased in this case.

I think it's safe to say that Bisu will move up, but his PvT is really bizarre, and I'd don't think he'll crack to top four with his current play in that MU.

I'd love to see Kal come back on the PR. That was a hell of a series he gave Jaedong. He'll have to win out for the month though.
ModeratorEffOrt, Snow, GuMiho, and Team Liquid
Yxes2211
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1587 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-29 20:29:54
July 29 2010 20:28 GMT
#945
Oh man who new Kal had that series in him If I was judging the PR off the MSL only, then i'd definitely put Kal up there but lets see how he does against a very strong SKT and in his OSL debut

I'm curious to see how Plexa reacts to Jaedong losing to Kal though. Since everyone expected JD to roll him, I wouldn't be surprised if he counts it against JD. I mean, it's a viable argument, but really comes down to whether you see it as Kal playing well, or Jaedong playing sloppy :p

That said, best series of the night :D hands down :p

Jaedong and Baby
luckybeni2
Profile Joined October 2008
Germany1065 Posts
July 29 2010 21:14 GMT
#946
On July 30 2010 00:44 okum wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 30 2010 00:25 WWJDD wrote:
On July 29 2010 22:25 okum wrote:
I hope no one gets the idea that Calm should be allowed anywhere near the PR, by the way.


Even if he puts the beatdown on SKT?

Let's restrict the discussion to plausible scenarios.

It certanly is possible. His series against JD showed a very high skill level again. On his A-game he can defeat anyone. I would not put him on the PR even if he beats both fantasy and bisu this month since there are a lot of people who deserved it more. Maybe next time. Anyway I really wonder where Stork rounds up. That was a pretty brutal stomping he gave there.
This will be a really interesting one since Baby, Stats and Great will have to drop out and effort should probably go in the lower half and Free has barely played(maybe he drops out, too).
Iplaythings
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Denmark9110 Posts
July 29 2010 21:45 GMT
#947
On July 30 2010 06:14 luckybeni2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 30 2010 00:44 okum wrote:
On July 30 2010 00:25 WWJDD wrote:
On July 29 2010 22:25 okum wrote:
I hope no one gets the idea that Calm should be allowed anywhere near the PR, by the way.


Even if he puts the beatdown on SKT?

Let's restrict the discussion to plausible scenarios.

It certanly is possible. His series against JD showed a very high skill level again. On his A-game he can defeat anyone. I would not put him on the PR even if he beats both fantasy and bisu this month since there are a lot of people who deserved it more. Maybe next time. Anyway I really wonder where Stork rounds up. That was a pretty brutal stomping he gave there.
This will be a really interesting one since Baby, Stats and Great will have to drop out and effort should probably go in the lower half and Free has barely played(maybe he drops out, too).

Stats has to drop off? Because he was cheesed out by Calm? Or "fell prey to his mind games?"
In the woods, there lurks..
TwoToneTerran
Profile Joined March 2009
United States8841 Posts
July 29 2010 22:28 GMT
#948
Stats should drop. I mean he ONLY had the MSL to prepare for and he threw the game away with a critical mistake -- it was like Jaedong forgetting Swarm, you just can't let something that crucial happen when an attack is coming right at your doorstep.
Remember Violet.
Elroi
Profile Joined August 2009
Sweden5617 Posts
July 29 2010 23:21 GMT
#949
On July 30 2010 07:28 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Stats should drop. I mean he ONLY had the MSL to prepare for and he threw the game away with a critical mistake -- it was like Jaedong forgetting Swarm, you just can't let something that crucial happen when an attack is coming right at your doorstep.


I feel that that kind of mistakes says absolutely nothing about a players skill level. Every player probably hits some random keys every game, and sometimes you just get unlucky.

I remember Tasteless once said that he quit a game in a tournament by just hitting the wrong keys in the wrong order lol.
"To all eSports fans, I want to be remembered as a progamer who can make something out of nothing, and someone who always does his best. I think that is the right way of living, and I'm always doing my best to follow that." - Jaedong. /watch?v=jfghAzJqAp0
eNyoron
Profile Joined September 2009
United States170 Posts
July 29 2010 23:56 GMT
#950
Stork's just like... shit, the PR is coming up, guess I should win 5 games today.
0sm9sm8sm... the beginning of the end.
Shikyo
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Finland33997 Posts
July 30 2010 00:39 GMT
#951
On July 30 2010 05:28 Yxes2211 wrote:
Oh man who new Kal had that series in him If I was judging the PR off the MSL only, then i'd definitely put Kal up there but lets see how he does against a very strong SKT and in his OSL debut

I'm curious to see how Plexa reacts to Jaedong losing to Kal though. Since everyone expected JD to roll him, I wouldn't be surprised if he counts it against JD. I mean, it's a viable argument, but really comes down to whether you see it as Kal playing well, or Jaedong playing sloppy :p

That said, best series of the night :D hands down :p


It'll be like "games a player win don't say much about their skill level, but the ones they lose do. The game where Jaedong lost to Kal proved that he's not good enough for #1 PR".

I can just see it.
League of Legends EU West, Platinum III | Yousei Teikoku is the best thing that has ever happened to music.
Mortality
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States4790 Posts
July 30 2010 01:34 GMT
#952
Flash has at least 2 games left this month and Jaedong has 1. Those games will be very important in deciding ranks 1 and 2. Bisu is probably out of the running for top 2 and is definitely out of the running for rank 1. Still remaining a good candidate for #3. His only apparent weakness is PvT. I'd also regard Effort as a good candidate for #3. Stork deserves an appearance. Fantasy and Sea should stay, but not be ranked too highly (#4 and #5 ranked ELO for a reason, both playing very strong but not unbeatable, facing difficult competition). Free deserves to stay unless maybe he flubs it vs Kal. Even so, he's #1 Protoss ELO for a reason. A not-too-high PR spot is probably in order. Action deserves consideration in my book, but he's still a diamond in the rough. Hiya has been on a rampage and deserves consideration. Roro is starting to pan out. Best and Light probably deserve CBNC. I wouldn't want to give either of them higher when both of them have a dangerously weak match-up. ForGG may also CBNC. Baby and Great are both bye-bye. Stats should probably drop for not quite playing up to snuff twice now in a bo3 in a single month.

Difficult month for PR. The games to come will matter a lot me thinks. Effort, Light, Roro, Flash, Bisu, Zero, Jaedong, Sea, and Free all have Starleague games to play and the first day of SKT1 and STX is the last day of the month, giving Fantasy, Bisu and Best all another shot to show where they are. I don't think I'd consider anyone on STX for Power Rank this month regardless of results. Yes, Kal and Calm both had a good showing last night, but it's not enough to make up for months (plural) of failure (Kal being 9-14 since his slaughter at the hands of Effort, 3-7 in his last 10 and Calm being 5-13 since his loss to JD, 4-6 in his last 10). At the end of the day, results do matter.
Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature
Brokenlamp
Profile Joined June 2009
United States39 Posts
July 30 2010 03:47 GMT
#953
Seriously though, it is very odd that Plexa didnt mention once that Flash had a 5-6 record in June, and that he lost THREE ace matches. Playing late game in TvT doesnt really seem like a rare thing...but Flash losing them (mulitples) in the same month is. It usually means he is coming down from peaking.

I seem to remember Plexa specifically stating several times in his (wonderful) articles that he is an unabashed Jaedong anti-fan. So this isnt just some made up perceived bias. Placing a 5-6 Flash over an 11-2 Jaedong requires creative logic at best. And unfortunately I'm pretty sure thats what we are seeing here. "Learning more from losses" is the worst kind of cop out when it comes to rankings.

Plexa does an awesome job for the most part. But its just common knowledge that Jaedong is going to have to do WAY more than the average pro-gamer to even impress him...let alone begrudgingly earn a spot above flash.
Mortality
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States4790 Posts
July 30 2010 05:05 GMT
#954
I wish people would stop getting fanboy panties in a bunch.

I could go on for more, but I think I’ve made the point rather clearly by now - Jaedong is to Zerg as Nada is to Terran.


Do you know who wrote this? Read:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=102206



The main reason for Flash being #1 was that he had just come off of back-to-back dual finals, OBLITERATING Jaedong 3-0 in utterly convincing fashion. A few hiccups and people go "Flash isn't who he used to be."

Flash's position is not at all unprecedented. Savior remained #1 on PR even after losing to Bisu. He remained #2 even after losing to NaDa in OGN Masters. Face it: Flash was rewarded for doing things we haven't seen since there was a bonjwa in Starcraft.

Even if Flash sucks for the rest of the month (losing 3 games), he'll stay top 5 in Power Rank. If he sucks, he won't keep #1, but PR has always rewarded momentum.

But what you fangirls refuse to believe is that Jaedong also gets allowances. Plexa knows how good Jaedong is. Even if he utterly flubs his last game for the month, the worst that will happen is #2. Neither Bisu nor Effort will be allowed to challenge his spot. And even if he sucks next month and gets knocked out of both leagues, he'll stay on the Power Rank. Because of momentum.
Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature
Avidkeystamper
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States8556 Posts
July 30 2010 05:07 GMT
#955
Um, I actually thought that Jaedong would be 2nd last month too, but then Effort snuck in from no where really.
Jaedong
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
July 30 2010 06:21 GMT
#956
On July 30 2010 14:07 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Um, I actually thought that Jaedong would be 2nd last month too, but then Effort snuck in from no where really.

I mayaswell say that I expected to rank that month Flash-Jaedong-Effort. That 3-0 was really bad
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
Yxes2211
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1587 Posts
July 30 2010 06:26 GMT
#957
On July 30 2010 15:21 Plexa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 30 2010 14:07 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Um, I actually thought that Jaedong would be 2nd last month too, but then Effort snuck in from no where really.

I mayaswell say that I expected to rank that month Flash-Jaedong-Effort. That 3-0 was really bad


Oh man I do not envy u bro for having to do this months PR D: Unless there is some major chokage you're gonna have some tough decisions D:

Best of luck man

And friendly push for JD as number 1 :D
Jaedong and Baby
InFdude
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Bulgaria619 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-30 06:54:40
July 30 2010 06:53 GMT
#958
--- Nuked ---
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-30 07:13:22
July 30 2010 07:11 GMT
#959
On July 30 2010 15:53 InFdude wrote:
Push for what ? This PR is a joke even if Flash loses his next two games and Jaedong wins his game Flash will still be N1 in PR. In the next 16 years Flash will be N1 thanks to his dual finals.

Is this kind of post really necessary? There is a method to how I do things and as much as I hate Jaedong I quite clearly am able to give him credit where it's due. ranking 3-10 this month is harder than 1-2 imo
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
InFdude
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Bulgaria619 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-30 07:41:45
July 30 2010 07:40 GMT
#960
--- Nuked ---
Prev 1 46 47 48 49 50 55 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 4m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SortOf 98
StarCraft: Brood War
Shuttle 3612
Bisu 793
Jaedong 519
Hyuk 272
Mini 204
Killer 128
Pusan 119
Light 103
Larva 102
Soulkey 98
[ Show more ]
Stork 84
EffOrt 58
Sharp 44
Hm[arnc] 39
ToSsGirL 32
ZerO 32
Sacsri 28
Rush 24
hero 22
zelot 19
yabsab 15
Snow 9
sorry 5
actioN 1
Dota 2
The International48069
Gorgc13860
singsing2531
Fuzer 314
BananaSlamJamma62
KheZu56
League of Legends
JimRising 331
Counter-Strike
olofmeister1624
ceh9405
kRYSTAL_69
Other Games
Hui .138
Sick133
ZerO(Twitch)8
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick615
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 36
lovetv 8
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 46
• LUISG 24
• CranKy Ducklings SOOP5
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 11
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Jankos1117
Upcoming Events
The PondCast
4m
CranKy Ducklings3
KCM Race Survival
4m
Kim Chul Min (afreeca) 57
PiG Sty Festival
2h 4m
Serral vs Lambo
SHIN vs Rogue
OSC
3h 4m
Replay Cast
14h 4m
Escore
1d
PiG Sty Festival
1d 2h
ByuN vs HeRoMaRinE
ShoWTimE vs Zoun
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
PiG Sty Festival
2 days
herO vs Krystianer
Solar vs Cure
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
[ Show More ]
PiG Sty Festival
3 days
Maru vs Shameless
Reynor vs TriGGeR
OSC
3 days
Afreeca Starleague
4 days
Rush vs Hm
Bisu vs Shuttle
WardiTV Weekly
4 days
The Patches Monday
4 days
Afreeca Starleague
5 days
Sharp vs Shinee
Action vs Shine
PiGosaur Cup
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Afreeca Starleague
6 days
BeSt vs Paralyze
Jaedong vs Speed
Kung Fu Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-08-11
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
Acropolis #5
RSL Revival: Season 6
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
Esports World Cup 2026
Esports World Cup 2026: LCQ
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S3: W7
CSLAN 4
ASL Season 22
Escore Tournament S3: W8
Acropolis #5 - TRS
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Acropolis #5 - GSA
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1
META DYMY #4
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Thunderpick World Champ.
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
Logitech G Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.