On July 26 2010 04:29 Nick_54 wrote: I really think BeSt deserves a low spot. Despite failing in both individual leagues in june, he is 6-1 this month going 5-0 in the playoffs, winning most of his games in a dominating fashion. I'm one of the biggest Bisu fans around, but BeSt is a huge part of their success also. I mean I really have trouble finding 5 guys better than him right now. Bisu, Jaedong, Flash, Fantasy and Effort, obviously, and I would probably keep Sea and Stats above him depending on how MSL and OSL go, but I think the 8 spot would make sense for Best.
there are 7 players right now that are in the msl and the osl granted that wont be the situation in a few days but still best is in no starleague so basicallu u'r saying out of all the players that are not in dual starleague (those in dual starleague- flash -jaedong - kal -fantasy - effort -bisu and hyuk... wait hyuk is in both starleagues???) well cant really feel comfortable to give a guy a higher place if 1 guy is in dual starleagues and the other is in no starleague and i'm pretty sure we have better acheiving players than best that will take #8 9 and 10
On July 26 2010 04:29 Nick_54 wrote: I really think BeSt deserves a low spot. Despite failing in both individual leagues in june, he is 6-1 this month going 5-0 in the playoffs, winning most of his games in a dominating fashion. I'm one of the biggest Bisu fans around, but BeSt is a huge part of their success also. I mean I really have trouble finding 5 guys better than him right now. Bisu, Jaedong, Flash, Fantasy and Effort, obviously, and I would probably keep Sea and Stats above him depending on how MSL and OSL go, but I think the 8 spot would make sense for Best.
there are 7 players right now that are in the msl and the osl granted that wont be the situation in a few days but still best is in no starleague so basicallu u'r saying out of all the players that are not in dual starleague (those in dual starleague- flash -jaedong - kal -fantasy - effort -bisu and hyuk... wait hyuk is in both starleagues???) well cant really feel comfortable to give a guy a higher place if 1 guy is in dual starleagues and the other is in no starleague and i'm pretty sure we have better acheiving players than best that will take #8 9 and 10
i'm pretty sure hydra is in both starleagues too :O [edit: jk lol]
but best is certainly winning and i think he deserves to at least be on PR
On July 26 2010 04:29 Nick_54 wrote: I really think BeSt deserves a low spot. Despite failing in both individual leagues in june, he is 6-1 this month going 5-0 in the playoffs, winning most of his games in a dominating fashion. I'm one of the biggest Bisu fans around, but BeSt is a huge part of their success also. I mean I really have trouble finding 5 guys better than him right now. Bisu, Jaedong, Flash, Fantasy and Effort, obviously, and I would probably keep Sea and Stats above him depending on how MSL and OSL go, but I think the 8 spot would make sense for Best.
there are 7 players right now that are in the msl and the osl granted that wont be the situation in a few days but still best is in no starleague so basicallu u'r saying out of all the players that are not in dual starleague (those in dual starleague- flash -jaedong - kal -fantasy - effort -bisu and hyuk... wait hyuk is in both starleagues???) well cant really feel comfortable to give a guy a higher place if 1 guy is in dual starleagues and the other is in no starleague and i'm pretty sure we have better acheiving players than best that will take #8 9 and 10
i'm pretty sure hydra is in both starleagues too :O [edit: jk lol]
but best is certainly winning and i think he deserves to at least be on PR
i agree he's showing good signs and he dropped out of both leagues probably in a moment of "mini slump" hey if snow got cnbc after his stellar month i see no reason why best cant be there but #8 is a bit too much its clear he has the potential since in 2008 he was at one time the best protoss and we know he can bounce from slumps since after his breakdown after ever osl finals he came back with excellent form but a bit more consistency for a longer time is important too and we only have 10 slots
On July 26 2010 01:20 L0thar wrote: Well, I can't help but think that many people on TL believe that terran players are doing better than they are in reality. I've already posted the stats from PL, which certainly doesn't show any terran dominance, quite the contrary.
As for individual leagues I would be very careful looking only at stats, because there are too few games played. They are also much more inflated when somebody like Flash or JD come and demolish everyone.
What's quite interesting though is looking at the semifinalist from last two OSLs&MSLs: Zerg - Shine, Calm, Calm, Effort, Kwanro, Jaedong, Jaedong Protoss - Movie, Kal, Kal, Pure, Free Terran - Flash, Flash, Flash, Flash
As you may see, for zerg and protoss there is quite a number of different players. But for terran, there is only Flash. Flash is the one and only terran who was able to compete with zerg and protoss players in individual leagues for the past year or so.
Terran players in general are doing absolutely horrible (except for winners league, where at least Light was tearing it up as well).
It really must suck to be a Terran fan who doesn't feel anything particular for Flash. How Leta and Sea can be S-class in Proleague yet never make a freaking Ro8?
However, if you look at the winners of those same past four Starleagues, it goes Terran, Zerg, Zerg, Terran. As a Protoss fan, it really doesn't assuage me that the Protoss can draw on a diverse, plucky, ensemble cast that can all fail in the semifinals together. (And one player that fluked into a finals by beating an equally fluky zerg that's a worse version of Kwanro.)
That being said, I must admit those proleague stats surprised me. It seems like yesterday when it still seemed like T>>Z, Z>>P, P>T. Protoss players have really been turning it around!
It's no secret what happened in PvT. Protoss players have learned to make Carriers useful again, a turn of events I'd like to credit to my boy Snow with his pivotal game vs. Really on PR, though in reality it's probably more multifaceted than that.
As for PvZ, I'd like to believe that 5 hatch hydra is losing some of its potency, due to more Tosses eschewing Shuttle-based harassment builds and instead building up into a slow macro/tech push off two bases. Large numbers of relatively low tech units is a poor counter to this, because 40 hydras isn't all that better than 30 against a Toss ball with both Reavers and Storm. Zerg will have to adapt either by trying to outexpand the Protoss further (at which point a resurgence of Sair/Reaver would be the counter-counter) or by rushing to Hive tech (which might make the +1 Speedlot push strong again, though Zerg simcities have evolved).
Very minor nitpick, but Leta did make the Ro8 in the Lost Saga MSL and Bacchus. However, the gist of your point is correct, as he has not accomplished much in individual leagues.
Best for CBNC seems valid. I'd hesitate to put him higher.
1-2 = JD / Flash 3,4,5 = Effort / Bisu / Fantasy 6-7 = Sea / Stats 8-9 = Light / Free 10=? But not Best. Sorry, but if you can't make 1 Ro16 then you don't deserve to be on Power Rank. Maybe if he beats Flash next month in playoffs.
The sad thing about all these proleague stars is that they will be forgotten the minute the proleague ends. Best certainly won't stay on CBNC next month if he doesn't play any games. It's quite possible that Bisu or Flash could practice so exclusively for proleague that they'll be kicked out of the leagues and have no chances to play next month
On July 26 2010 12:33 Crisium wrote: Best for CBNC seems valid. I'd hesitate to put him higher.
1-2 = JD / Flash 3,4,5 = Effort / Bisu / Fantasy 6-7 = Sea / Stats 8-9 = Light / Free 10=? But not Best. Sorry, but if you can't make 1 Ro16 then you don't deserve to be on Power Rank. Maybe if he beats Flash next month in playoffs.
Too soon after Light's loss to Brave to include him imo.
To the extent that the ranking reflects who's dangerous and in good form, Best deserves a spot.
To the extent that the ranking reflects who is in leagues, Best should be relegated to CNBC.
Note that certain players don't have a hope of actually winning a league, so I've never understood why it matters much either way if Light, Sea, free, Leta, Hyuk, and company are in leagues --- at least, why it should matter when something important like the proleague playoffs is happening. Best's play is looking sublime and could very possibly propel SKT to a team proleague win (which is kind of a big deal), while the Flash/Jaedong-fodder Ro16'ers are just going to crash and burn like always.
Of course, Best would crash and burn as spectacularly as anyone against Flash or Jaedong (!!), but the point is that he's playing better SC than Sea/Light/free on a stage that matters more, so... what gives?
At this time of year, ProLeague playoffs are the biggest stage in starcraft and overshadow MSL and OSL. Going 5-0 in the first two rounds should be awarded accordingly. a low spot on the PR seems fine to me.
On July 26 2010 16:19 Djabanete wrote: To the extent that the ranking reflects who's dangerous and in good form, Best deserves a spot.
To the extent that the ranking reflects who is in leagues, Best should be relegated to CNBC.
Note that certain players don't have a hope of actually winning a league, so I've never understood why it matters much either way if Light, Sea, free, Leta, Hyuk, and company are in leagues --- at least, why it should matter when something important like the proleague playoffs is happening. Best's play is looking sublime and could very possibly propel SKT to a team proleague win (which is kind of a big deal), while the Flash/Jaedong-fodder Ro16'ers are just going to crash and burn like always.
Of course, Best would crash and burn as spectacularly as anyone against Flash or Jaedong (!!), but the point is that he's playing better SC than Sea/Light/free on a stage that matters more, so... what gives?
what i think should be accounted for is cosistency as well and best was not doing so well half a month ago losing to violet and han .... i'm not saying he's not doing great latlely but proleague is a team effort and u can be the best in the world (not trying to suggest anything and has nothing to do with oz or jaedong) but still not play cause u'r not in a good team and being in a star league shows u do have consistency and luck and skill to pull it off in important stages i'm sorry in my opinion starleagues matter more but thats my thought on the matter
fantasy will be rem as the guy that lost from 2-0 to 3-2 in the osl finals? or the guy that brought skt the champinship? and i'm asking other fans team cause we al know what oz fans (like me ) or skt fans (would say)
Best is out of both leagues because his PvZ is shaky. He was knocked out by Great and by by.hero. For that matter, his PvP was looking pretty shaky not all that long ago. I'd be hesitant to place him above CBNC. What really carries Best is his PvT.
Free is "only" 4-2 this month, losing his two most important games, but you know what? He's playing excellent SC, is well rounded (good win rates in all match-ups during 2010), and has had good individual league results recently. And while you can complain all you want about Sea dropping games, he's playing tough competition and has stayed alive in both leagues (including a win over Bisu in Ro16 of MSL this month).
I like Best and he's good, but if he plays a top level PvP player I'm not so sure he'll win and if he plays any halfway decent ZvP player I'm quite sure he'll lose. The same cannot be said of Free or of Sea.
Best can be related to Light in terms of his results. Autowin vs one race, uncertainty vs one race, autoloss vs good players of the third race.
On July 26 2010 13:23 Muirhead wrote: The sad thing about all these proleague stars is that they will be forgotten the minute the proleague ends. Best certainly won't stay on CBNC next month if he doesn't play any games. It's quite possible that Bisu or Flash could practice so exclusively for proleague that they'll be kicked out of the leagues and have no chances to play next month
Flash will play a MAXIMUM of 2 games for the Pro-league playoffs. How excessively can he practice to even drop one league??
I don't think Flash will drop from the MSL even when he is practicing exclusively for proleague finals. The chances are pretty high he will play Stats in the ro8, and that gives him the best opportunity of any player to advance. That is no knock on Stat's skill, but Flash should easily have the advantage just from knowing the playstyle of his teammate.
The chance of him dropping the OSL is much more likely. Flash will have to go up against Zero, who has arguably the second best ZvT behind Jaedong. Zero played Flash in a very close game last season when Flash was at his TvZ peak. Then he will have to play Hyuk on Dreamliner the day before PL finals, and that there looks to be a very, very good map for zerg which Hyuk can capitalize on with his aggressive style. The match against Hiya is Flash's biggest question mark. Can he get his TvT back in shape, or will Hiya, with plentiful time to practice, upset him?
Either way, if Sea ends up ousting Bisu from the MSL there is a good chance it will be another Jaedong/Flash final.
Best deserves a spot next month simply because he's actually winning this month and I can't really make a case for a few other people on the bubble ahead of him. I'd probably only stick him in at 10, something like JD/Flash/Effort/Fantasy/Bisu/Stats/Sea/Light/Free/Best, probably leave Snow in CBNC with forgg and some sort of zerg clusterfuck (great? Roro? Action?). At least there's a few matches this month that can hopefully shed some light on things, if people can drag themselves away from sc2 for five minutes
On July 27 2010 08:28 sixfour wrote: Best deserves a spot next month simply because he's actually winning this month and I can't really make a case for a few other people on the bubble ahead of him. I'd probably only stick him in at 10, something like JD/Flash/Effort/Fantasy/Bisu/Stats/Sea/Light/Free/Best, probably leave Snow in CBNC with forgg and some sort of zerg clusterfuck (great? Roro? Action?). At least there's a few matches this month that can hopefully shed some light on things, if people can drag themselves away from sc2 for five minutes
How can anyone play the SC kindergarten edition (lol) over watching this season's OSL/MSL the line-ups are sweeeeet
Not to bash SC2, its fine in its own regards, but I watched the King of the Beta tourney... >.> yah ProSC will beat anything related to SC2 :p
On July 26 2010 14:21 TwoToneTerran wrote: That's how it always is during the end season. We usually get STX Masters and WCG to make up for it, though.
Poor substitutes though. We always end up somewhat of a wildcard PR, but that's how it is.
On July 26 2010 11:44 yanmaodao wrote: It's no secret what happened in PvT. Protoss players have learned to make Carriers useful again, a turn of events I'd like to credit to my boy Snow with his pivotal game vs. Really on PR, though in reality it's probably more multifaceted than that.
I think the introduction of a truely protoss-favored map (Polaris Rhapsody) has a lot to do with it. It's difficult for terran to establish an effective line, or defense against carriers on that map, and zerg's haven't really figured out how to simcity anything on PR either.
I think the Z > P imbalance was somewhat attributed to mutalisk sniping of templars. I think the development of airtight zerg simcities allowed a hive-based strategy to come back into vogue for zerg, and that has given protoss all kinds of problems, because even when you win in the map middle, it's still so damn hard to take out zerg bases.
EPT
(except for winners league, where at least Light was tearing it up as well).
the line-ups are sweeeeet 
