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On May 29 2010 19:20 TwoToneTerran wrote:
It delays Rax, pure and simple. Less marines makes you prone to mutalisk rushes.
Yes, thank you. Terran basically continuously makes Marines as soon as the first Barracks goes down with only a small gap perhaps for the CC at 17 if you go standard 1 Rax FE. So compare that to getting the Rax at 15 (instead of 11) and it's a huge difference, because the economic advantage of 14cc doesn't let you get a second Rax any faster (1 Rax FE is perfectly capable of supporting the same build up to this point only with slightly more Marines) and that's pretty much the extent of the timing that we're talking about here. After that it really starts to kick in (actually it already kicks in before but not in the discrete ways necessary to get more Marines).
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On May 29 2010 19:20 TwoToneTerran wrote:
It delays Rax, pure and simple. Less marines makes you prone to mutalisk rushes.
And how does a delayed rax not delay range upgrade?
And after a successful 14cc you surely have the economy to get an extra rax compared to rax cc, so I dont really get it how you can have less marines...
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On May 29 2010 19:23 SuperArc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:20 TwoToneTerran wrote:
It delays Rax, pure and simple. Less marines makes you prone to mutalisk rushes. And how does a delayed rax not delay range upgrade? And after a successful 14cc you surely have the economy to get an extra rax compared to rax cc, so I dont really get it how you can have less marines...
No one instantly throws down an acad after rax. It'll come out at a similar time to 1rax CC. You're still getting a rax and CC before acad, just in a different order.
You have less marines for a time but obviously produce more later. 2hatch muta always comes in before range is upgraded, and it will come in before your increase production from a good econ kicks in. That's why it raped 14cc previously.
Flash prepared for that.
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On May 29 2010 19:18 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:16 darktreb wrote:On May 29 2010 19:12 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Jaedong can beat 14 cc with 3 hatch before pool if he doesn't suicide lurks into MNM without ling support. Seriously the dumbest thing I've ever seen Jaedong do that he did deliberately. I don't know why you keep going on about the Lurker suicide. The game was over by then, there was no way he was saving the 3rd Hatch and on Odd Eye of all maps there's no chance Z wins there. His mistake (like you said in another thread) was Droning too hard and expecting to come out ahead on the Muta/Scourge/Ling vs MnM/Valk exchange, thus not having anything to stall for the third any longer. I'm parroting Day9, and I made the more detailed post in the actual thread, but it's not like I was wrong. Jaedong was in a perfectly fine position in both game 2 and 3, Flash just played better.
I agree, I'm just saying that in a vacuum, the Lurker suicide wasn't a big deal. Jaedong blew his good position through the overall situation that led up to that point.
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On topic... can we expect a fast Power Rank this month?
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On May 29 2010 19:23 SuperArc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:20 TwoToneTerran wrote:
It delays Rax, pure and simple. Less marines makes you prone to mutalisk rushes. And how does a delayed rax not delay range upgrade? And after a successful 14cc you surely have the economy to get an extra rax compared to rax cc, so I dont really get it how you can have less marines...
Isn't there a voice in your head that says "given that I've clearly never played 14cc or 1rax FE seriously maybe I should stop throwing out random guesses about how it works"?
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I haven't played terran since 2006 and I comprehend the builds just fine. Him not playing those shouldn't affect his judgement so much as him not understanding Terran builds in the first place.
I'm also a zerg player and don't think there's anything wrong with what Flash did. :> I don't get why people are so upset that Flash won the way he did when it was basically him playing Jaedong like a fiddle from start to finish. It happens, Jaedong's crushed Flash three times previously, people gotta chillll.
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On May 29 2010 19:27 TwoToneTerran wrote:
I haven't played terran since 2006 and I comprehend the builds just fine. Him not playing those shouldn't affect his judgement so much as him not understanding Terran builds in the first place.
I mean it's the same thing. If someone doesn't know that T doesn't throw down Academy immediately after Rax in any standard FE build then why even start talking about the details.
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On May 29 2010 19:27 TwoToneTerran wrote:
I haven't played terran since 2006 and I comprehend the builds just fine. Him not playing those shouldn't affect his judgement so much as him not understanding Terran builds in the first place.
I'm also a zerg player and don't think there's anything wrong with what Flash did. :> I don't get why people are so upset that Flash won the way he did when it was basically him playing Jaedong like a fiddle from start to finish. It happens, Jaedong's crushed Flash three times previously, people gotta chillll.
We JD fans are way calmer than Flash fans after Effort's win. All Flash fans spammed are "Effort is bad" "Effort didnt deserve it". Tell Flash fans to chilll?
On May 29 2010 19:25 darktreb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 19:23 SuperArc wrote:On May 29 2010 19:20 TwoToneTerran wrote:
It delays Rax, pure and simple. Less marines makes you prone to mutalisk rushes. And how does a delayed rax not delay range upgrade? And after a successful 14cc you surely have the economy to get an extra rax compared to rax cc, so I dont really get it how you can have less marines... Isn't there a voice in your head that says "given that I've clearly never played 14cc or 1rax FE seriously maybe I should stop throwing out random guesses about how it works"?
lol, TTT explained me why 14cc loses to 2hatch muta, all you said is "you are wrong"
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It just makes me womit to say this, but JD really doesn't deserve #2 this month after the horrible horrible finals. Imo the real question should be flash or Effort as #1. Flash got a good record, but head to head is really important too.
*womiting
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It doesn't neccessarily lose, obviously. You still can't fly your mutas over the marines that are there and if it's a long distance map with hard to harass natural, for instance, than 2 hatch muta isn't the best course of action.
PS: I'm telling everyone to chill. I'm a pretty rabid fanboy but I'm not condoning their attitudes, even if I mildly agree.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:25 okum wrote:
On topic... can we expect a fast Power Rank this month?
Yes.
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The best part is that KT vs Oz is on June 1st. Jaedong vs Flash again please.
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On May 29 2010 19:44 TwoToneTerran wrote:
The best part is that KT vs Oz is on June 1st. Jaedong vs Flash again please.
That would be soooooo epic
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On May 29 2010 18:56 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 18:55 11cc wrote:On May 29 2010 18:49 TwoToneTerran wrote:
I'm not even anti-cheese but so many people are shouting that 14cc is cheese and blah blah when it's the most sensical build on the first two maps and he just scouted for it on the third. I think he scouted 12hat on 2nd game too before starting the cc. I'm not 100% about that but I think he did Nope, scouting distances are too long. He did scout the three hatch before pool after he 14cc'd which led to his followup timing push.
Actually, he did scout before putting down the CC.
That was the whole reason for scouting that fast.
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14CC can beat 2 hatch muta. Look at Flash v Kwanro game 2 in Avalon.
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On May 29 2010 19:50 Vasoline73 wrote:
14CC can beat 2 hatch muta. Look at Flash v Kwanro game 2 in Avalon.
Well Kwanro is bad and we already clarified that, actually.
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On May 29 2010 19:50 Vasoline73 wrote:
14CC can beat 2 hatch muta. Look at Flash v Kwanro game 2 in Avalon.
Of course it can, early pool can also beat rax cc.
With mistakes any build can beat any.
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On May 29 2010 19:31 SuperArc wrote:
lol, TTT explained me why 14cc loses to 2hatch muta, all you said is "you are wrong"
Are you fucking serious? My first post on this page (page 40) detailed exactly why 14cc ends up with less Marines than 1 Rax FE.
And TTT didn't say 14cc loses (just a retarded invention in your head), you made that strawman leap. Time and time again you prove that you're the worst poster on TL.
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On the other hand, I'm much nicer, treb. =)
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EPT
