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On January 29 2010 17:29 InFdude wrote:
Skill wise Jaedong is way better .But let flash have next month he won in WL . His dominance is comming to an end . If you look at the time line flash went from unbeatable to some times loosing a game (some random flukes ) .At the finals many people said he'd 3/0 Jaedong and atm it's like ''they are on the same lvl '' .After 1 month when all the terrans pick up the macro like crazy style he'll just be one of the many . Let him enjoy his 5 minutes of fame.
You´re so generous man. Thank you!
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On January 29 2010 11:50 Ideas wrote:
JD is the best player in the world right now and should be #1.
but like so many other PRs he's going to have to settle for #2 because some other player has gotten more wins in the month. JD has way too few PR #1s for his career.
Ideas loves Zergs
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wow, the retarded childish jd fanboys have arrived earlier than expected
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The fanboyism by both sides is just getting silly. I admit I am a JD fan, but that shouldn't stop me from being just a little objective. There's nothing wrong with being a fan, but it's obvious most of you know nothing about strategy or much about progaming in general.
The way I see it:
- Nobody else is even close to these 2 right now.
- JD is the favorite in a Bo5 against anyone.
- Flash deserves #1 based on results.
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
On January 29 2010 08:45 NovaTheFeared wrote:
Flash is still number one, but Jaedong closed the gap considerably from last month when Flash looked like he was going to pull away with two titles and become the new bonjwa.
This!
On January 29 2010 19:05 LxRogue wrote:
The way I see it:
- Nobody else is even close to these 2 right now.
- JD is the favorite in a Bo5 against anyone.
- Flash deserves #1 based on results.
1 + 3 are correct but I don't think anyone is a favorite if the 2 play heads-up. They played 7 games in 3 encounters in MSL, OSL and Winner's League. FlaSh won two times, Jaedong won one time but the more important one. The total score is 4-3 in favor of FlaSh. And basically in every game except OSL G1 (FlaSh won straight) and MSL G1 (Jaedong won straight) you can argue that it was luck and unfair if you are a fanboy.
MSL G2: FlaSh cheesed, doesn't count really
OSL G2: Jaedong was ahead and FlaSh had a lucky dropship that did way more damage than it should
OSL G3: MBC screwed FlaSh
OSL G4: FlaSh was mentally down from getting screwed
WL: Jaedong forgot Consume, otherwise he would have won
So every Jaedong Fanboy can argue that Jaedong is better than FlaSh and every FlaSh fanboy can argue that FlaSh is better than Jaedong. You just have to ignore the aguments for the other. Fact is, they are absolutely and totally on one level and based on results FlaSh has to get #1 in February ranking closely followed by Jaedong on #2 and an absurdly large gap to #3.
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On January 29 2010 19:05 LxRogue wrote:
The fanboyism by both sides is just getting silly. I admit I am a JD fan, but that shouldn't stop me from being just a little objective. There's nothing wrong with being a fan, but it's obvious most of you know nothing about strategy or much about progaming in general.
The way I see it:
- Nobody else is even close to these 2 right now.
- JD is the favorite in a Bo5 against anyone.
- Flash deserves #1 based on results.
I'm okay with this.
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Jaedong is not the favourite aganst flash. What are you talking about.
No one is the favourite obviously we have no clue who would win since they play on the same level. Slightest mistake from either player and he's screwed.
MSL was a fluke. Flash said he was in a decent spot. He's been well mannered for a long time now and I believe him. He must have had something we didnt know of. Maybe 2 more vessels just popping out and extra cash in his bank, we can't know that only he can.
Either decision kespa would have made would have been bad. A player is entitled to a comeback just as we saw in winnersleague. Even though MSL was fucked up it doesn't take away the fact that it showed jaedong can beat flash on a good day the same way flash can beat jaedong on a good day.
The only way we can separate flash and jaedong is through their games vs other players, thus flash takes the lead.
You might as well stop speculating whos the better of the two when faced against eachothers until they play more games.
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The fanboyism by both sides is just getting silly. I admit I am a JD fan, but that shouldn't stop me from being just a little objective. There's nothing wrong with being a fan, but it's obvious most of you know nothing about strategy or much about progaming in general.
The way I see it:
- Nobody else is even close to these 2 right now.
- JD is the favorite in a Bo5 against anyone.
- Flash deserves #1 based on results.
This
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
No, I disagree with point 2. Jaedong is not favorite against FlaSh (neither vice versa). Both have a single title this season, FlaSh is 4-3 in their recent games. Except for 1 straight win for each of them all the games they played were pretty wild (cheese from FlaSh, crazy dropship, MSL retardedness x2, forgotten Consume) . It is totally impossible to give either of them the advantage.
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On January 29 2010 19:05 LxRogue wrote:
The fanboyism by both sides is just getting silly. I admit I am a JD fan, but that shouldn't stop me from being just a little objective. There's nothing wrong with being a fan, but it's obvious most of you know nothing about strategy or much about progaming in general.
The way I see it:
- Nobody else is even close to these 2 right now.
- JD is the favorite in a Bo5 against anyone.
- Flash deserves #1 based on results.
Flash fan, and agreed. Though at point 2, I agree that JD is the favorite, but not by much ;D I'd still have some serious trouble predicting the winner if they met again right now.
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Jaedong is a favorite vs ANYONE in a bo5. Arguably the only ones who could even stand a chance vs him right now.. are.. IS. Flash
I'd argue the same with Flash
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Just put Bisu nr1 and screw with all people-
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On January 29 2010 17:29 InFdude wrote:
Skill wise Jaedong is way better .But let flash have next month he won in WL . His dominance is comming to an end . If you look at the time line flash went from unbeatable to some times loosing a game (some random flukes ) .At the finals many people said he'd 3/0 Jaedong and atm it's like ''they are on the same lvl '' .After 1 month when all the terrans pick up the macro like crazy style he'll just be one of the many . Let him enjoy his 5 minutes of fame.
Flash is good enough he is never going to be just "one of many", not for more than a month while he adjusts, not until the next generation of progamers (if there ever is one).
That aside, you've sort of hit the nail on the head. Flash's genius is stylistic, build-oriented, and can therefore be copied much easier than Jaedong's, whose genius is almost pure skill. Flash is constantly messing with timings, placements, tech orders, etc. to maintain his edge, which helps him almost as much as his raw skill. When he does settle into a "style" - say for a PL season - his builds can be analyzed and copied. Of course, other Terrans still aren't as good, because they never seem to quite achieve Flash's tank micro or turret placement skill hacks, but Flash's edge is BO domination and innovation, and that can be copied (see: anti-carrier build).
Jaedong's domination is purely skill-based; he rarely innovates much, but then he doesn't need to because he can kill you, at the top of his game, with just mutalisks. Two control groups. Being micro'd at the same time. (Hi Iris.) Not that JD doesn't push the envelope or experiment, it's just that the strategic players these days in the Zerg department are clearly players like ZerO and Calm, while Jaedong is just Better Than You.
So who's better between them? I have no idea, in the long run. This month I'm inclined to leave the edge with Flash, on the basis of momentum and results that are better across 75% of the board at least.
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On January 30 2010 03:41 SkytoM wrote:
Just put Bisu nr1 and screw with all people-
that would piss off many many people
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On January 30 2010 04:13 Musoeun wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2010 17:29 InFdude wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Skill wise Jaedong is way better .But let flash have next month he won in WL . His dominance is comming to an end . If you look at the time line flash went from unbeatable to some times loosing a game (some random flukes ) .At the finals many people said he'd 3/0 Jaedong and atm it's like ''they are on the same lvl '' .After 1 month when all the terrans pick up the macro like crazy style he'll just be one of the many . Let him enjoy his 5 minutes of fame. Flash is good enough he is never going to be just "one of many", not for more than a month while he adjusts, not until the next generation of progamers (if there ever is one). That aside, you've sort of hit the nail on the head. Flash's genius is stylistic, build-oriented, and can therefore be copied much easier than Jaedong's, whose genius is almost pure skill. Flash is constantly messing with timings, placements, tech orders, etc. to maintain his edge, which helps him almost as much as his raw skill. When he does settle into a "style" - say for a PL season - his builds can be analyzed and copied. Of course, other Terrans still aren't as good, because they never seem to quite achieve Flash's tank micro or turret placement skill hacks, but Flash's edge is BO domination and innovation, and that can be copied (see: anti-carrier build). Jaedong's domination is purely skill-based; he rarely innovates much, but then he doesn't need to because he can kill you, at the top of his game, with just mutalisks. Two control groups. Being micro'd at the same time. (Hi Iris.) Not that JD doesn't push the envelope or experiment, it's just that the strategic players these days in the Zerg department are clearly players like ZerO and Calm, while Jaedong is just Better Than You. So who's better between them? I have no idea, in the long run. This month I'm inclined to leave the edge with Flash, on the basis of momentum and results that are better across 75% of the board at least.
Flash is also just "Better Than You". Sure he gets a lot of wins just by being ahead of the curve strategically, but in fact his execution is also extraordinarily good. How do you think he gets away with his TvZ-defining early MnM aggression? Most T's would just lose that first batch of guys to mutalisk harrassment, but Flash's micro is so good that he can go toe-to-toe with the mutas and come out ahead.
Another example: if you compare Flash vs Calm G3 with the recent Iris vs Soulkey match, you'll see Flash and Iris basically playing the same late game (hold enough expansions to win by starvation and turtle like mad with siege tanks), but Flash just plays it better, against a better opponent. Flash has crazy good execution, and even when other terrans are copying his trends, he'll never be just one of the crowd because his micro, macro and especially game sense are on a whole other level.
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fan of neither, but flash has been playing better than jaedong recently, jaedong won the msl but couldn't pull it off in osl or winner's league
every time they have a standard muta->lurker->hive vs 1 rax fe game Flash wins.
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Way to include the OSL silver medalist. Remind me of what Jangbi has done lately?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not even a fan of Movie, and I'd much rather see Bisu or Jangbi do well than him; but let's give credit where it's due.
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On January 30 2010 04:13 Musoeun wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2010 17:29 InFdude wrote:
Skill wise Jaedong is way better .But let flash have next month he won in WL . His dominance is comming to an end . If you look at the time line flash went from unbeatable to some times loosing a game (some random flukes ) .At the finals many people said he'd 3/0 Jaedong and atm it's like ''they are on the same lvl '' .After 1 month when all the terrans pick up the macro like crazy style he'll just be one of the many . Let him enjoy his 5 minutes of fame. Flash is good enough he is never going to be just "one of many", not for more than a month while he adjusts, not until the next generation of progamers (if there ever is one). That aside, you've sort of hit the nail on the head. Flash's genius is stylistic, build-oriented, and can therefore be copied much easier than Jaedong's, whose genius is almost pure skill. Flash is constantly messing with timings, placements, tech orders, etc. to maintain his edge, which helps him almost as much as his raw skill. When he does settle into a "style" - say for a PL season - his builds can be analyzed and copied. Of course, other Terrans still aren't as good, because they never seem to quite achieve Flash's tank micro or turret placement skill hacks, but Flash's edge is BO domination and innovation, and that can be copied (see: anti-carrier build). Jaedong's domination is purely skill-based; he rarely innovates much, but then he doesn't need to because he can kill you, at the top of his game, with just mutalisks. Two control groups. Being micro'd at the same time. (Hi Iris.) Not that JD doesn't push the envelope or experiment, it's just that the strategic players these days in the Zerg department are clearly players like ZerO and Calm, while Jaedong is just Better Than You. So who's better between them? I have no idea, in the long run. This month I'm inclined to leave the edge with Flash, on the basis of momentum and results that are better across 75% of the board at least.
This is an excellent post and extremely accurate. It's literally how I describe these two players when introducing someone to pro-sc, and greatly helps them understand what to look for in games.
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EPT
