Mvp made the gamble of his career in 2010. As the 2009-2010 Brood War season came to a close, he had left a good impression on fans and pundits alike by making a top eight run into the MBCGame Starcraft League, and showing some impressive games against top tier players. His stock was on the rise – and though it didn't quite mean he would be a title contender in the near future – he seemed to be headed towards at worst a solid mid-tier career, with a guaranteed a regular starting spot for his team.
However, it wasn't something Mvp could be content with. In a rare, illuminating interview with ThisIsGame, Mvp revealed his upbringing in a poor family which made the potential monetary rewards of pro-gaming all the more important. No great reward comes without great risk, and the GSL Open's 100,000,000 won reward presented one worth taking.
As we all know, it paid off spectacularly. In Starcraft astrology, 2011 was the year of the Mvp. With three GSL championships, an MLG trophy, a Blizzcon championship, and a WCG gold medal, no one has matched his domination of the SC II scene.
Mvp doesn't need to win the Blizzard Cup to be the most valuable player of 2011. But he hasn't truly needed to win a tournament for a while. There's something else driving Mvp, and there's no reason to believe his reign will stop any time soon.
After spending nearly five years as "an exciting prospect," HerO realized his potential in truly explosive fashion in November of 2011. With a championship at DreamHack Winter and a second place finish at NASL, he's arguably the current best Protoss player in the world.
Foreign success has helped him get over the weak nerves that plagued him for years, but HerO himself admits that they're still a problem. Perhaps that's why he's yet to replicate his success in the GSL, despite being capable of defeating all sorts of Code S class players on the ladder. Though there are no Code S implications on the line at the Blizzard Cup, there's still a lot of money and pride on the line. While that alone gives this tournament plenty of meaning for HerO, it might also help him going ahead by giving him the confidence to show his true skill in the GSL up-down matches to come.
We spent a good portion of 2011 hyping up DongRaeGu, calling him the next generation Zerg hope and wondering how good he would be if he could get over his Code A jinx and get into Code S. However, after two Code S seasons and a few foreign tournaments, many DRG supporters (myself included) are having to radically re-access the former GSTL king as a player.
It's not that DRG was a bottom-feeder in GSTL; he defeated a fair share of top tier players as well. However, the conclusion we have to reach from many singles tournaments is that he just can't compete regularly with the true champion contenders. His highly entertaining style of play and charismatic personality might give him top-tier popularity, but his actual performances are just one step behind. I'll explain it in Brood War parlance: He's near the top of A-Class progamers, but just can't reach S-Class. Essentially, he's the Leta of SC2.
Winning this tournament would go a long way towards dispelling that reputation.
Our previously dead president has made huge steps towards resurrection. While his play has been all over the place, he has been undeniably clutch. Knocked out of Code S, he made an incredible run at MLG Orlando to finish second and win a Code S seed. Knocked down to Code A again this season, he 2-0'd Bomber to make sure he would remain in Code S (is this Code S retention ability any surprise, for a teammate of Ensnare and TheWind?).
Though he's only half rehabilitated, you can't count MC out. Flip 'inconsistent' on its head, and you can call a player 'streaky.' I'm not saying it's definitely going to happen, but there's a definitely a strong five day run in MC if he puts it all together. Though reinventing his game overall will take more time, winning the Blizzard Cup will at least restore MC's reputation. It's time to go out there and prove that no matter how far one might fall, a two time GSL Champion will always deserve respect.
Two championships in two weeks at IPL3 and ESWC. After being talked up by nearly everybody in the scene as the next big thing, we knew Stephano's time had come. Fast-forward to a RO32 elimination at DreamHack Winter 2011 (a moment Stephano called the most embarrassing in his SC II career), and we were reminded that even our brightest foreigner hopes are still mortal. I had hoped this would set some more realistic expectations of him going into the Blizzard Cup. Maybe he wouldn't go in carrying all our hopes on his back, expected to make it far in the name of all things foreigner. Instead, maybe we'd just think of him as an excellent player who qualified for a tough tournament, who would have to play at his best to get a good result.
Ah, if only. For better or for worse, the foreign community can't help but blow these things up. The biggest story of SC II in 2011 was Korea versus the World, and we demand that it end on a high note.
Good luck! You'll need it.
Match Predictions
Mvp vs MC on Bel'Shir Beach
MC is back in Code S, but he's still remarkably inconsistent compared to his heyday. I don't mean just in terms of results; a win against Mvp, win against DRG, loss against Mvp, win against Bomber – that's the kind of mixed record you expect against top opposition. The problem is that his in game performances are all over the board as well, showing glimpses of his dominating past at some points while displaying inexplicable decision making at others.
This was all on display during his recent games against Mvp at MLG Providence, WCG Korea, and during the second GomTV Arena of Legends tournament. MC both lived up to his reputation, and become utterly anonymous over a closely contested series.
Mvp > MC: Though MC trails only four games to five in recent weeks, his unpredictability makes Mvp the safer bet.
HerO vs Stephano on Daybreak
For foreigners, this is the blockbuster game of the group stages. The best foreign Zerg, playing his very best match-up, against the best Korean Protoss, also playing his best match-up. After disappointments at NASL and DreamHack, it's time to show that foreigners are relevant.
What I fear for here is Stephano's ability to prepare for Korean tournaments. His frequent ladder sessions on the Korean server are quite welcome for viewers, but on the other hand it's not like we've seen the stream-fiend HerO online for the last few weeks. As much as they are meticulous at practicing, Koreans are also very serious about their stream-studying as well. If Stephano thinks that he can go into this tournament with regular practice, and just play his regular game, then he's in for some trouble.
HerO > Stephano: Narrow margin, but HerO should prevail.
Mvp vs DongRaeGu on Tal'Darim Altar
Though he's an absolute annihilator of rank and file Terrans (especially good at stopping their pitiful early game gambits), DRG has suffered as of late against top-tier Terran players. FXOGumiho and IMHappy denied him in Code S, while SuperNova ended his AoL II tournament run in the RO8. Their play style was the boring, safe, macro Terran type that frustrates so many opponents.
No one is better at that suffocatingly solid macro Terran than Mvp. I expect DRG to valiantly bash his head against a brick wall for 30 minutes before GGing out.
Mvp > DRG: At least it's on Tal'Darim Altar. If it was Shakuras Plateau, I was going to pencil in a 100% win for Mvp.
HerO vs MC on Calm Before the Storm
Top tier Protoss players in a mirror-matchup?
Flip a coin: Off-hand, I'll say one of the players will exploit the other player trying to greedily play a macro game based on the back-door expansion.
Stephano vs DongRaeGu on Crossfire
According to reports, ZvZ has been the major obstacle in Stephano's Korean-LadderQuest 2011. Even though Stephano's tournament ZvZ record has been pretty decent as of late, he's going to have a hard time against one of the most skilled, steadiest ZvZ players in Korea.
DRG > Stephano: DRG, to retain his perfect ZvZ series record against foreigners.
Stephano vs MC on Dual Sight
As mentioned above, Stephano's ability to prepare in Korean style for a tournament is questionable until proven. Now, here's MC, a guy who did some of the best prepared one-base and two-base timings during his championship runs earlier this year. On top of that, he's playing on Dual Sight, a map that's notoriously bad for PvZ. He has to have something cute up his sleeve.
At the same time, I'm horribly worried that this will be one of MC's off games, and that he'll try something cute that fails miserably and die to a macrolling from Stephano. You know what I mean: This game is just begging for the infamous oGs 'DT into lose' strategy.
Stephano > MC: I don't think Stephano will go 0-4. Favorable map, favorable race, favorable opponent (relatively). This will be the game he takes.
HerO vs Mvp on Antiga Shipyard
Facing off against the indisputable most valuable player of 2011, HerO must feel strangely optimistic. Antiga Shipyard is one of his favorite maps in this match-up, one he has favored repeatedly against TvP master EG.Puma in their past meetings. On that note, HerO has also been preparing for and playing against Puma – who I'm hard pressed to say Mvp is clearly better than at TvP – for the last three weeks. Add to that the fact that Mvp's WCG sojourn has taken away valuable preparation time, and HerO appears to be in good shape going into this match-up.
On the other hand, Mvp is Mvp, and there's no such thing as a 'weak' match-up for him. TvP is just the one that makes him seem slightly more human. His record against HerO is 4-1, and he's beat him in solid macro games as well.
HerO > MvP: Despite the head to head record, I think the map and preparation time favor HerO by just enough to get him the win.
DongRaeGu vs HerO on Shakuras Plateau
Before HerO and Puma got into some of the bloodiest slugfests in recent memory, DongRaeGu was HerO's original 'rival.' At least in the sense that any two players who face each other often and trade games can be called rivals. DongRaeGu at least partially owes the repairing of his "bad at ZvP" reputation to some of his hard fought games against HerO.
Though DongRaeGu is slightly ahead in overall record and won their most recent series (in which we saw the suicidal side of HerO that shows up when he's at his worst), HerO seems slightly favored. The two seem awfully close in skill, but this time the momentum and map favor HerO. If DRG wins, I expect it to be through a clever early game timing, while HerO will probably win in a longer macro game.
HerO > DRG: Paper thin.
Stephano vs Mvp on Shakuras Plateau
No, just no.
Mvp > Stephano: I started writing something and then I saw it was on Shakuras.
MC vs DongRaeGu on Crossfire
The record of risk-taking Protoss players on non-forge-FE maps is pretty atrocious. How many times are we going to see one Gate Nexus die to speedlings? Alas, that's the story I see unfolding on Crossfire SE once more. That, or another Forge-FE getting busted by roaches (of course, I just happened to watch a VOD of DRG dying after failing to Roach bust HuK on Crossfire. Eh, still not changing my mind!).
DRG > MC: Could MC have gotten worse maps? Unlike Obama, MC will have to pull out all the stops to get re-elected in 2012.
Final Predictions 1st: HerO 3-1 2nd: Mvp 3-1 3rd: DRG 2-2 4th: Stephano 1-3 5th: MC 1-3
I don't think you were very fair to Stephano. Who knows? He's probably been preparing incredibly hard for this match, and there are some really awesome nydus/muta plays Zerg can do on Shak.
For what reasons is Hero being given title of 'best Protoss player in the world'? He can't get past 2nd round of Code A, has an awful win rate in Korea, and stomps foreigners. He is incredibly creative and smart, but trashing around foreigners will always make you look good.
Where is the oZ hype? Brown? Parting? Heck, MC deserves more hype, guy is goooood.
When you read it, Hero wins 3 out of 4 and coinflip on the other, then at the results it says 2-2 I wont enter to talk about calling him several times the best protoss in Korea wich sounds rather biased, but at least make the maths properly xD
On December 12 2011 10:40 mbr2321 wrote: I don't think you were very fair to Stephano. Who knows? He's probably been preparing incredibly hard for this match, and there are some really awesome nydus/muta plays Zerg can do on Shak.
For which match up? Vs hero who makes every zerg look like their nothing? against mvp who has a 68% vZ win rate and has a record like 10-3 or something stupid like that against nestea, or against drg who has a perfect zvz record? It seems like he was pretty fair.
As much as I am a huge Stephano fanboy who is awed every time I see him play, I have to agree with the sentiment of this preview. Stephano plays a specific, safe style possibly better than anyone else in the world, but that's not good enough to beat well prepared Koreans in a tournament setting.
Unless Stephano's been preparing something special, things will be pretty depressing 12 hours from now.
Drg is the mOst consistent player out of all these players. If he does not win the tour ament he enters he usually places 2 or 3 that's impressive. team liquid writers lol
Hero is awesome, but when did he get the title "best korean protoss"...
his KOREAN results certainly don't indicate so, he's been ripping the foreign scene, but that's about it, and it's only because he was given the opportunity to due to his priviledge being on TL a foreign team.
Way to harsh on MC! I can see it being really tight, I really doubt stephano will even will a single game for some reason. MVP seems like the safest bet to win this, but if he doesn't, DRG HerO or MC can easily take it, I think it would be awesome if MC were to win, I feel like it will be a 4 way tie :S MC 2-2 MVP 2-2 DRG 2-2 HerO 2-2 Stephano 0-4 Kinda feel bad doubting the stephano so much, but oh well, its always better when your surprised!
On December 12 2011 10:46 CoolSea wrote: Hey, does anybody know where i can find the interview Thisisgame conducted with Mvp that was mentioned in his excerpt?
I've been wondering where I could find this as well.
On December 12 2011 10:46 CoolSea wrote: Hey, does anybody know where i can find the interview Thisisgame conducted with Mvp that was mentioned in his excerpt?
I've been wondering where I could find this as well.
It's never been fully translated on TL, as far as I can tell
On December 12 2011 10:34 TeamLiquid Writers wrote:
Final Predictions 1st: Mvp 3-1 2nd: HerO 2-2 3rd: DRG 2-2 4th: Stephano 1-3 5th: MC 1-3
Wait. You favor HerO in there out of four matches with the fourth being a coin flip with no actual prediction given, and yet his final stats are 2-2? I am assuming that this is an oversight, as your analysis has him at least at 3-1 and the only way for the final prediction stats to have a balanced win to loss ratio for all five players combined is to have him at 3-1.
While I do not disagree with some of the match specific analysis as such, I think it is very optimistic and Liquid friendly. I can understand the discrepancy with favouring him in individual games yet putting him at 2-2; for one reason or another it is very hard to see him come out with a positive record after four games. Yes, he has been very lucky with the maps, but I cannot think of many good reasons to put him as likely to defeat neither Mvp nor DRG, much less winning both.
He has losing records both to DRG and Mvp, with losses occuring quite recently in both circumstances. At Dreamhack of course he had no choice over maps versus DRG, but versus Mvp he lost even at what he thought was his most favourable map.
I would not be very surprised with Hero going 2-2, though neither would I be confident in a score better than 1-3 or surprised at a 0-4. He can of course beat MC, though MC has a monstrous PvP record in Korea, only notable loss being against HongUn in a rather strange series that in many ways predicted his fall from grace in the GSL. His late game versus Zerg is absolutely fantastic, his early game is decidedly exploitable and I would be surprised if both Stephano and DRG let the game go very late without taking risks to punish him severely. His late game versus Terran is also quite good, though not as mind bogglingly powerful as in the Zerg matchup. Worryingly, his early game versus Terran looks to involve a lot of risk, either through very greedy play or through being very aggressive. Against Mvp I think there is a strong probability that this will once more be punished.
It is not as if I do not rate HerO as a player. In fact, I will cheer for him tomorrow. But this is an insane group and I have no idea how his proven Korean record can be disregarded. While it is not expansive and perhaps skewed from not having had much face time for one reason or another, nerve issues have been a deal breaker for him before, and while his composure might be improving, this being his most competitive tournament ever will probably not help.
Hoping for the best, but competition is stiff and HerO has to raise his game considerably to be able to get through this group. It is not impossible, but at the very least it is a bold, bold choice to make.
On December 12 2011 10:59 Joshacdcfan1 wrote: Drg is the mOst consistent player out of all these players. If he does not win the tour ament he enters he usually places 2 or 3 that's impressive. team liquid writers lol
Hero's match vs MC is going to be absolutely crucial for his run. He NEEDS to win there, because even if he's somewhat favored in PvZ, he'll probably need that extra match to give him a solid footing for his match against MVP, which is probably the match in which he has the biggest chance of losing. He'll want a 3-1 as "target", he can't afford losing to MC.
Meanwhile, for MC, it's even more important, considering the crap maps he got against Zerg. MC can beat MVP, so he'll need the win vs Hero to secure 2 wins. Against the zergs, he's gonna need the matches of his life. Yeah, these maps are THAT horrible for PvZ. Don't be so quick to count him out though. MC is a very wild card, he can play amazing games one day and look like a noob the next. If he brings his A-game, he's got potential to 4-0 this group.
On December 12 2011 11:18 monXikk wrote: I think PuMa is arguably the current best Terran player in the world. GL to Stephano!
what kind of troll is this
it makes sense by team liquid logic, he won one tournament, and got second in another big one in the course of one week. therefore he must be the best player of his respective race! (see where im going with this)
On December 12 2011 11:18 monXikk wrote: I think PuMa is arguably the current best Terran player in the world. GL to Stephano!
what kind of troll is this
it makes sense by team liquid logic, he won one tournament, and got second in another big one in the course of one week. therefore he must be the best player of his respective race! (see where im going with this)
And he also has no success in GSL. He's the whole package!
On December 12 2011 11:18 monXikk wrote: I think PuMa is arguably the current best Terran player in the world. GL to Stephano!
what kind of troll is this
it makes sense by team liquid logic, he won one tournament, and got second in another big one in the course of one week. therefore he must be the best player of his respective race! (see where im going with this)
And he also has no success in GSL. He's the whole package!
on a serious note though, he has like the 4th highest winnings of any player with no GSL wins lol (MVP, Nestea, and MC are the only ones beating him)
no, this doesnt mean i think he's the best terran, however its hard to say that him not having GSL results matters when he's making more money than the overwhelming majority of them
As much as I love TL, I don't predict Hero to come out 1st... I think a bit of bias showing when you predict an (relative to MVP) unproven player, based mostly on games that I didn't think were that 'spectacular' or next level. (I like JYP/WhiteRa's PvX warp prism based matchups more than I like Hero's)
The recent record on Dual Sight paints quite a different picture. Protoss have figured out how to forge expand on Dual Sight quite well. The map has a tendency to be a coin-flippy 'guess my two-base all-in', and as can be seen from results, that can be a hard thing to do.
Overall the maps favor Hero and MVP, while MC and Stephano are disadvantaged. But Gom, if there ever was a time to come out with one your trademark convoluted tournament-systems to get the most matches possible, this would be the time. Instead we get bo1 map-wins. Why, oh, why? Such a shame.
On December 12 2011 11:18 monXikk wrote: I think PuMa is arguably the current best Terran player in the world. GL to Stephano!
what kind of troll is this
it makes sense by team liquid logic, he won one tournament, and got second in another big one in the course of one week. therefore he must be the best player of his respective race! (see where im going with this)
And he also has no success in GSL. He's the whole package!
Although Hero probably isn't the best protoss player right now, this really isn't a fair comparison. Terran has an undisputed best player who happens to also be the undisputed best player of any race in the world by a wide margin. Protoss on the other hand has been notoriously leaderless since MC's fall.
The point is that it's a lot easier to be in contention for best Protoss player in the world than it is to be in contention for best Terran player right now.
On December 12 2011 11:18 monXikk wrote: I think PuMa is arguably the current best Terran player in the world. GL to Stephano!
what kind of troll is this
it makes sense by team liquid logic, he won one tournament, and got second in another big one in the course of one week. therefore he must be the best player of his respective race! (see where im going with this)
And he also has no success in GSL. He's the whole package!
on a serious note though, he has like the 4th highest winnings of any player with no GSL wins lol (MVP, Nestea, and MC are the only ones beating him)
no, this doesnt mean i think he's the best terran, however its hard to say that him not having GSL results matters when he's making more money than the overwhelming majority of them
Money =/= performance
Particularly when most of his money comes from a very small amount of wins, and in the foreigner scene.
Even if GSL had 1/10 of the prize money, and it had the same players, winning the GSL would be much more important and prestigious than winning any of Puma's tourneys.
On December 12 2011 11:18 monXikk wrote: I think PuMa is arguably the current best Terran player in the world. GL to Stephano!
what kind of troll is this
it makes sense by team liquid logic, he won one tournament, and got second in another big one in the course of one week. therefore he must be the best player of his respective race! (see where im going with this)
And he also has no success in GSL. He's the whole package!
Although Hero probably isn't the best protoss player right now, this really isn't a fair comparison. Terran has an undisputed best player who happens to also be the undisputed best player of any race in the world by a wide margin. Protoss on the other hand has been notoriously leaderless since MC's fall.
The point is that it's a lot easier to be in contention for best Protoss player in the world than it is to be in contention for best Terran player right now.
"being capable of defeating all sorts of Code S class players on the ladder." Ehh.. I dont even know how to start on that one :D - people do all sort of weird shit on ladder, I think most of us know that... Rank 1 in GM doesnt give you any money. Doing the best builds in tournaments and keeping your dark secrets hidden from the public is what _ I think _ many do. A huge amount of players refuse to share their replays for good reason !
"arguably the best protoss in the world <right now>" Hehe......................
Anyways...I know TL.net almost has to be biased with its own players but yeah I didnt find it amusing at all - just my opinion.. (and quite many others as well it seems) - - -
Lets enjoy Blizzard Cup anyhow. MVP will not spare anyone T_T
On December 12 2011 11:18 monXikk wrote: I think PuMa is arguably the current best Terran player in the world. GL to Stephano!
what kind of troll is this
it makes sense by team liquid logic, he won one tournament, and got second in another big one in the course of one week. therefore he must be the best player of his respective race! (see where im going with this)
And he also has no success in GSL. He's the whole package!
on a serious note though, he has like the 4th highest winnings of any player with no GSL wins lol (MVP, Nestea, and MC are the only ones beating him)
no, this doesnt mean i think he's the best terran, however its hard to say that him not having GSL results matters when he's making more money than the overwhelming majority of them
Money =/= performance
Particularly when most of his money comes from a very small amount of wins, and in the foreigner scene.
Even if GSL had 1/10 of the prize money, and it had the same players, winning the GSL would be much more important and prestigious than winning any of Puma's tourneys.
On December 12 2011 11:18 monXikk wrote: I think PuMa is arguably the current best Terran player in the world. GL to Stephano!
what kind of troll is this
it makes sense by team liquid logic, he won one tournament, and got second in another big one in the course of one week. therefore he must be the best player of his respective race! (see where im going with this)
And he also has no success in GSL. He's the whole package!
Although Hero probably isn't the best protoss player right now, this really isn't a fair comparison. Terran has an undisputed best player who happens to also be the undisputed best player of any race in the world by a wide margin. Protoss on the other hand has been notoriously leaderless since MC's fall.
The point is that it's a lot easier to be in contention for best Protoss player in the world than it is to be in contention for best Terran player right now.
edit: spelling
They're discussing Puma, not HerO
They're discussing Puma to make a point about Hero (one I consider unfair). Read the subtext.
On December 12 2011 11:18 monXikk wrote: I think PuMa is arguably the current best Terran player in the world. GL to Stephano!
what kind of troll is this
it makes sense by team liquid logic, he won one tournament, and got second in another big one in the course of one week. therefore he must be the best player of his respective race! (see where im going with this)
And he also has no success in GSL. He's the whole package!
on a serious note though, he has like the 4th highest winnings of any player with no GSL wins lol (MVP, Nestea, and MC are the only ones beating him)
no, this doesnt mean i think he's the best terran, however its hard to say that him not having GSL results matters when he's making more money than the overwhelming majority of them
Money =/= performance
Particularly when most of his money comes from a very small amount of wins, and in the foreigner scene.
Even if GSL had 1/10 of the prize money, and it had the same players, winning the GSL would be much more important and prestigious than winning any of Puma's tourneys.
On December 12 2011 11:18 monXikk wrote: I think PuMa is arguably the current best Terran player in the world. GL to Stephano!
what kind of troll is this
it makes sense by team liquid logic, he won one tournament, and got second in another big one in the course of one week. therefore he must be the best player of his respective race! (see where im going with this)
And he also has no success in GSL. He's the whole package!
Although Hero probably isn't the best protoss player right now, this really isn't a fair comparison. Terran has an undisputed best player who happens to also be the undisputed best player of any race in the world by a wide margin. Protoss on the other hand has been notoriously leaderless since MC's fall.
The point is that it's a lot easier to be in contention for best Protoss player in the world than it is to be in contention for best Terran player right now.
edit: spelling
They're discussing Puma, not HerO
it started as a Hero discussion... albeit a sarcastic one.
noone is seriously arguing performance.... but discounting money from the equation is seriously flawed... at the end of the year, im pretty sure most pros would rather by PuMA with over 100k in winnings than Clide with nothing, etc etc
normally i would agree with your comment of "most of his money came from only a couple tournaments"
however, nobody seems to hold Stephano or Polt(btw ALL of polt's money came from a single tournament, 95,000 of his total 110,000 in one tournament) and many others to that same principle sooooo why single out players like PuMa?
On December 12 2011 11:18 monXikk wrote: I think PuMa is arguably the current best Terran player in the world. GL to Stephano!
what kind of troll is this
it makes sense by team liquid logic, he won one tournament, and got second in another big one in the course of one week. therefore he must be the best player of his respective race! (see where im going with this)
And he also has no success in GSL. He's the whole package!
on a serious note though, he has like the 4th highest winnings of any player with no GSL wins lol (MVP, Nestea, and MC are the only ones beating him)
no, this doesnt mean i think he's the best terran, however its hard to say that him not having GSL results matters when he's making more money than the overwhelming majority of them
Money =/= performance
Particularly when most of his money comes from a very small amount of wins, and in the foreigner scene.
Even if GSL had 1/10 of the prize money, and it had the same players, winning the GSL would be much more important and prestigious than winning any of Puma's tourneys.
On December 12 2011 11:32 frogrubdown wrote:
On December 12 2011 11:26 Olinimm wrote:
On December 12 2011 11:24 cavalier117 wrote:
On December 12 2011 11:22 zyzq wrote:
On December 12 2011 11:18 monXikk wrote: I think PuMa is arguably the current best Terran player in the world. GL to Stephano!
what kind of troll is this
it makes sense by team liquid logic, he won one tournament, and got second in another big one in the course of one week. therefore he must be the best player of his respective race! (see where im going with this)
And he also has no success in GSL. He's the whole package!
Although Hero probably isn't the best protoss player right now, this really isn't a fair comparison. Terran has an undisputed best player who happens to also be the undisputed best player of any race in the world by a wide margin. Protoss on the other hand has been notoriously leaderless since MC's fall.
The point is that it's a lot easier to be in contention for best Protoss player in the world than it is to be in contention for best Terran player right now.
edit: spelling
They're discussing Puma, not HerO
it started as a Hero discussion... albeit a sarcastic one.
noone is seriously arguing performance.... but discounting money from the equation is seriously flawed... at the end of the year, im pretty sure most pros would rather by PuMA with over 100k in winnings than Clide with nothing, etc etc
normally i would agree with your comment of "most of his money came from only a couple tournaments"
however, nobody seems to hold Stephano or Polt(btw ALL of polt's money came from a single tournament, 95,000 of his total 110,000 in one tournament) and many others to that same principle sooooo why single out players like PuMa?
Polt has shown a rather consistent skill level throughout half this year (more, probably) in the GSL, so that's why he's considered good. He's been able to stay and compete in Code S for a long time now.
In Stephano's case, his success is just overblown, just like PuMa's.
On December 12 2011 11:18 monXikk wrote: I think PuMa is arguably the current best Terran player in the world. GL to Stephano!
what kind of troll is this
it makes sense by team liquid logic, he won one tournament, and got second in another big one in the course of one week. therefore he must be the best player of his respective race! (see where im going with this)
And he also has no success in GSL. He's the whole package!
on a serious note though, he has like the 4th highest winnings of any player with no GSL wins lol (MVP, Nestea, and MC are the only ones beating him)
no, this doesnt mean i think he's the best terran, however its hard to say that him not having GSL results matters when he's making more money than the overwhelming majority of them
Money =/= performance
Particularly when most of his money comes from a very small amount of wins, and in the foreigner scene.
Even if GSL had 1/10 of the prize money, and it had the same players, winning the GSL would be much more important and prestigious than winning any of Puma's tourneys.
On December 12 2011 11:32 frogrubdown wrote:
On December 12 2011 11:26 Olinimm wrote:
On December 12 2011 11:24 cavalier117 wrote:
On December 12 2011 11:22 zyzq wrote:
On December 12 2011 11:18 monXikk wrote: I think PuMa is arguably the current best Terran player in the world. GL to Stephano!
what kind of troll is this
it makes sense by team liquid logic, he won one tournament, and got second in another big one in the course of one week. therefore he must be the best player of his respective race! (see where im going with this)
And he also has no success in GSL. He's the whole package!
Although Hero probably isn't the best protoss player right now, this really isn't a fair comparison. Terran has an undisputed best player who happens to also be the undisputed best player of any race in the world by a wide margin. Protoss on the other hand has been notoriously leaderless since MC's fall.
The point is that it's a lot easier to be in contention for best Protoss player in the world than it is to be in contention for best Terran player right now.
edit: spelling
They're discussing Puma, not HerO
it started as a Hero discussion... albeit a sarcastic one.
noone is seriously arguing performance.... but discounting money from the equation is seriously flawed... at the end of the year, im pretty sure most pros would rather by PuMA with over 100k in winnings than Clide with nothing, etc etc
normally i would agree with your comment of "most of his money came from only a couple tournaments"
however, nobody seems to hold Stephano or Polt(btw ALL of polt's money came from a single tournament, 95,000 of his total 110,000 in one tournament) and many others to that same principle sooooo why single out players like PuMa?
Polt has shown a rather consistent skill level throughout half this year (more, probably) in the GSL, so that's why he's considered good. He's been able to stay and compete in Code S for a long time now.
In Stephano's case, his success is just overblown, just like PuMa's.
On December 12 2011 11:18 monXikk wrote: I think PuMa is arguably the current best Terran player in the world. GL to Stephano!
what kind of troll is this
it makes sense by team liquid logic, he won one tournament, and got second in another big one in the course of one week. therefore he must be the best player of his respective race! (see where im going with this)
And he also has no success in GSL. He's the whole package!
on a serious note though, he has like the 4th highest winnings of any player with no GSL wins lol (MVP, Nestea, and MC are the only ones beating him)
no, this doesnt mean i think he's the best terran, however its hard to say that him not having GSL results matters when he's making more money than the overwhelming majority of them
Money =/= performance
Particularly when most of his money comes from a very small amount of wins, and in the foreigner scene.
Even if GSL had 1/10 of the prize money, and it had the same players, winning the GSL would be much more important and prestigious than winning any of Puma's tourneys.
On December 12 2011 11:32 frogrubdown wrote:
On December 12 2011 11:26 Olinimm wrote:
On December 12 2011 11:24 cavalier117 wrote:
On December 12 2011 11:22 zyzq wrote:
On December 12 2011 11:18 monXikk wrote: I think PuMa is arguably the current best Terran player in the world. GL to Stephano!
what kind of troll is this
it makes sense by team liquid logic, he won one tournament, and got second in another big one in the course of one week. therefore he must be the best player of his respective race! (see where im going with this)
And he also has no success in GSL. He's the whole package!
Although Hero probably isn't the best protoss player right now, this really isn't a fair comparison. Terran has an undisputed best player who happens to also be the undisputed best player of any race in the world by a wide margin. Protoss on the other hand has been notoriously leaderless since MC's fall.
The point is that it's a lot easier to be in contention for best Protoss player in the world than it is to be in contention for best Terran player right now.
edit: spelling
They're discussing Puma, not HerO
it started as a Hero discussion... albeit a sarcastic one.
noone is seriously arguing performance.... but discounting money from the equation is seriously flawed... at the end of the year, im pretty sure most pros would rather by PuMA with over 100k in winnings than Clide with nothing, etc etc
normally i would agree with your comment of "most of his money came from only a couple tournaments"
however, nobody seems to hold Stephano or Polt(btw ALL of polt's money came from a single tournament, 95,000 of his total 110,000 in one tournament) and many others to that same principle sooooo why single out players like PuMa?
Polt has shown a rather consistent skill level throughout half this year (more, probably) in the GSL, so that's why he's considered good. He's been able to stay and compete in Code S for a long time now.
In Stephano's case, his success is just overblown, just like PuMa's.
ehh, i think your wording is a little harsh yet. saying PuMa(or Hero) is not code S potential, whether they are in it or not, is pretty silly. Unlike DRG, who was literally handed his code S title,(3 MLGS and like a 5 place later bc ALL of the other Koreans were already in code S) they have to do it the hard way.
On December 12 2011 11:18 monXikk wrote: I think PuMa is arguably the current best Terran player in the world. GL to Stephano!
what kind of troll is this
it makes sense by team liquid logic, he won one tournament, and got second in another big one in the course of one week. therefore he must be the best player of his respective race! (see where im going with this)
And he also has no success in GSL. He's the whole package!
on a serious note though, he has like the 4th highest winnings of any player with no GSL wins lol (MVP, Nestea, and MC are the only ones beating him)
no, this doesnt mean i think he's the best terran, however its hard to say that him not having GSL results matters when he's making more money than the overwhelming majority of them
Money =/= performance
Particularly when most of his money comes from a very small amount of wins, and in the foreigner scene.
Even if GSL had 1/10 of the prize money, and it had the same players, winning the GSL would be much more important and prestigious than winning any of Puma's tourneys.
On December 12 2011 11:32 frogrubdown wrote:
On December 12 2011 11:26 Olinimm wrote:
On December 12 2011 11:24 cavalier117 wrote:
On December 12 2011 11:22 zyzq wrote:
On December 12 2011 11:18 monXikk wrote: I think PuMa is arguably the current best Terran player in the world. GL to Stephano!
what kind of troll is this
it makes sense by team liquid logic, he won one tournament, and got second in another big one in the course of one week. therefore he must be the best player of his respective race! (see where im going with this)
And he also has no success in GSL. He's the whole package!
Although Hero probably isn't the best protoss player right now, this really isn't a fair comparison. Terran has an undisputed best player who happens to also be the undisputed best player of any race in the world by a wide margin. Protoss on the other hand has been notoriously leaderless since MC's fall.
The point is that it's a lot easier to be in contention for best Protoss player in the world than it is to be in contention for best Terran player right now.
edit: spelling
They're discussing Puma, not HerO
it started as a Hero discussion... albeit a sarcastic one.
noone is seriously arguing performance.... but discounting money from the equation is seriously flawed... at the end of the year, im pretty sure most pros would rather by PuMA with over 100k in winnings than Clide with nothing, etc etc
normally i would agree with your comment of "most of his money came from only a couple tournaments"
however, nobody seems to hold Stephano or Polt(btw ALL of polt's money came from a single tournament, 95,000 of his total 110,000 in one tournament) and many others to that same principle sooooo why single out players like PuMa?
Polt has shown a rather consistent skill level throughout half this year (more, probably) in the GSL, so that's why he's considered good. He's been able to stay and compete in Code S for a long time now.
In Stephano's case, his success is just overblown, just like PuMa's.
So how you will describe Heros succes? over-9000-blown? I always thought it is better to win few tournaments than just one and earn like 3-4 more money than the other player.
On December 12 2011 11:18 monXikk wrote: I think PuMa is arguably the current best Terran player in the world. GL to Stephano!
what kind of troll is this
it makes sense by team liquid logic, he won one tournament, and got second in another big one in the course of one week. therefore he must be the best player of his respective race! (see where im going with this)
And he also has no success in GSL. He's the whole package!
on a serious note though, he has like the 4th highest winnings of any player with no GSL wins lol (MVP, Nestea, and MC are the only ones beating him)
no, this doesnt mean i think he's the best terran, however its hard to say that him not having GSL results matters when he's making more money than the overwhelming majority of them
Money =/= performance
Particularly when most of his money comes from a very small amount of wins, and in the foreigner scene.
Even if GSL had 1/10 of the prize money, and it had the same players, winning the GSL would be much more important and prestigious than winning any of Puma's tourneys.
On December 12 2011 11:32 frogrubdown wrote:
On December 12 2011 11:26 Olinimm wrote:
On December 12 2011 11:24 cavalier117 wrote:
On December 12 2011 11:22 zyzq wrote:
On December 12 2011 11:18 monXikk wrote: I think PuMa is arguably the current best Terran player in the world. GL to Stephano!
what kind of troll is this
it makes sense by team liquid logic, he won one tournament, and got second in another big one in the course of one week. therefore he must be the best player of his respective race! (see where im going with this)
And he also has no success in GSL. He's the whole package!
Although Hero probably isn't the best protoss player right now, this really isn't a fair comparison. Terran has an undisputed best player who happens to also be the undisputed best player of any race in the world by a wide margin. Protoss on the other hand has been notoriously leaderless since MC's fall.
The point is that it's a lot easier to be in contention for best Protoss player in the world than it is to be in contention for best Terran player right now.
edit: spelling
They're discussing Puma, not HerO
it started as a Hero discussion... albeit a sarcastic one.
noone is seriously arguing performance.... but discounting money from the equation is seriously flawed... at the end of the year, im pretty sure most pros would rather by PuMA with over 100k in winnings than Clide with nothing, etc etc
normally i would agree with your comment of "most of his money came from only a couple tournaments"
however, nobody seems to hold Stephano or Polt(btw ALL of polt's money came from a single tournament, 95,000 of his total 110,000 in one tournament) and many others to that same principle sooooo why single out players like PuMa?
Polt has shown a rather consistent skill level throughout half this year (more, probably) in the GSL, so that's why he's considered good. He's been able to stay and compete in Code S for a long time now.
In Stephano's case, his success is just overblown, just like PuMa's.
So how you will describe Heros succes? over-9000-blown? I always thought it is better to win few tournaments than just one and earn like 3-4 more money than the other player.
I don't know why we're discussing hero right now, since this was originally about money and performance. But I think Hero's performance is overblown too, less than Stephano's though, that overhype is pretty crazy.
On December 12 2011 10:40 mbr2321 wrote: I don't think you were very fair to Stephano. Who knows? He's probably been preparing incredibly hard for this match, and there are some really awesome nydus/muta plays Zerg can do on Shak.
Maybe he has been preparing, he might be able to beat Hero or DRG... But beating MVP on shakuras?! It's going to be a long while yet before any zerg manages that feat.
On December 12 2011 11:18 monXikk wrote: I think PuMa is arguably the current best Terran player in the world. GL to Stephano!
what kind of troll is this
it makes sense by team liquid logic, he won one tournament, and got second in another big one in the course of one week. therefore he must be the best player of his respective race! (see where im going with this)
And he also has no success in GSL. He's the whole package!
on a serious note though, he has like the 4th highest winnings of any player with no GSL wins lol (MVP, Nestea, and MC are the only ones beating him)
no, this doesnt mean i think he's the best terran, however its hard to say that him not having GSL results matters when he's making more money than the overwhelming majority of them
Money =/= performance
Particularly when most of his money comes from a very small amount of wins, and in the foreigner scene.
Even if GSL had 1/10 of the prize money, and it had the same players, winning the GSL would be much more important and prestigious than winning any of Puma's tourneys.
On December 12 2011 11:32 frogrubdown wrote:
On December 12 2011 11:26 Olinimm wrote:
On December 12 2011 11:24 cavalier117 wrote:
On December 12 2011 11:22 zyzq wrote:
On December 12 2011 11:18 monXikk wrote: I think PuMa is arguably the current best Terran player in the world. GL to Stephano!
what kind of troll is this
it makes sense by team liquid logic, he won one tournament, and got second in another big one in the course of one week. therefore he must be the best player of his respective race! (see where im going with this)
And he also has no success in GSL. He's the whole package!
Although Hero probably isn't the best protoss player right now, this really isn't a fair comparison. Terran has an undisputed best player who happens to also be the undisputed best player of any race in the world by a wide margin. Protoss on the other hand has been notoriously leaderless since MC's fall.
The point is that it's a lot easier to be in contention for best Protoss player in the world than it is to be in contention for best Terran player right now.
edit: spelling
They're discussing Puma, not HerO
it started as a Hero discussion... albeit a sarcastic one.
noone is seriously arguing performance.... but discounting money from the equation is seriously flawed... at the end of the year, im pretty sure most pros would rather by PuMA with over 100k in winnings than Clide with nothing, etc etc
normally i would agree with your comment of "most of his money came from only a couple tournaments"
however, nobody seems to hold Stephano or Polt(btw ALL of polt's money came from a single tournament, 95,000 of his total 110,000 in one tournament) and many others to that same principle sooooo why single out players like PuMa?
Polt has shown a rather consistent skill level throughout half this year (more, probably) in the GSL, so that's why he's considered good. He's been able to stay and compete in Code S for a long time now.
In Stephano's case, his success is just overblown, just like PuMa's.
Man he doesn't think much of Stephano. I'm going to have to disagree with him on multiple fronts. Stephano is definitely going to take out Hero and I've seen him beat DRG on ladder...
To be honest, I think that picking HerO over Mvp seems a little bit crazy. Yes, Mvp's TvP is his weakest match-up, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's bad. Mvp is Mvp, he's a monster, and I'll be really surprised to see if he loses to anybody in this group. Maybe MC if MC plays the MC style (god I just used his name far too much) and hits some really nice timings. Mvp seems to always play for the macro-game, and a well executed 3 Gate Void Ray or 6 Gate might just be what it takes to take him down, and--not to dis HerO--but MC's timing attacks are insane.
On December 12 2011 10:40 mbr2321 wrote: I don't think you were very fair to Stephano. Who knows? He's probably been preparing incredibly hard for this match, and there are some really awesome nydus/muta plays Zerg can do on Shak.
What do you think the other four players have been doing?
On December 12 2011 11:18 monXikk wrote: I think PuMa is arguably the current best Terran player in the world. GL to Stephano!
what kind of troll is this
it makes sense by team liquid logic, he won one tournament, and got second in another big one in the course of one week. therefore he must be the best player of his respective race! (see where im going with this)
And he also has no success in GSL. He's the whole package!
on a serious note though, he has like the 4th highest winnings of any player with no GSL wins lol (MVP, Nestea, and MC are the only ones beating him)
no, this doesnt mean i think he's the best terran, however its hard to say that him not having GSL results matters when he's making more money than the overwhelming majority of them
Money =/= performance
Particularly when most of his money comes from a very small amount of wins, and in the foreigner scene.
Even if GSL had 1/10 of the prize money, and it had the same players, winning the GSL would be much more important and prestigious than winning any of Puma's tourneys.
On December 12 2011 11:32 frogrubdown wrote:
On December 12 2011 11:26 Olinimm wrote:
On December 12 2011 11:24 cavalier117 wrote:
On December 12 2011 11:22 zyzq wrote:
On December 12 2011 11:18 monXikk wrote: I think PuMa is arguably the current best Terran player in the world. GL to Stephano!
what kind of troll is this
it makes sense by team liquid logic, he won one tournament, and got second in another big one in the course of one week. therefore he must be the best player of his respective race! (see where im going with this)
And he also has no success in GSL. He's the whole package!
Although Hero probably isn't the best protoss player right now, this really isn't a fair comparison. Terran has an undisputed best player who happens to also be the undisputed best player of any race in the world by a wide margin. Protoss on the other hand has been notoriously leaderless since MC's fall.
The point is that it's a lot easier to be in contention for best Protoss player in the world than it is to be in contention for best Terran player right now.
edit: spelling
They're discussing Puma, not HerO
it started as a Hero discussion... albeit a sarcastic one.
noone is seriously arguing performance.... but discounting money from the equation is seriously flawed... at the end of the year, im pretty sure most pros would rather by PuMA with over 100k in winnings than Clide with nothing, etc etc
normally i would agree with your comment of "most of his money came from only a couple tournaments"
however, nobody seems to hold Stephano or Polt(btw ALL of polt's money came from a single tournament, 95,000 of his total 110,000 in one tournament) and many others to that same principle sooooo why single out players like PuMa?
Polt has shown a rather consistent skill level throughout half this year (more, probably) in the GSL, so that's why he's considered good. He's been able to stay and compete in Code S for a long time now.
In Stephano's case, his success is just overblown, just like PuMa's.
I wouldn't call 2 NASLs overblown..
It was more like 1 NASL and beating HerO.
What are you talking about? I think that in the two NASL final events, PuMa managed to have the most difficult roads: first Ret, Squirtle, July, and MC and then Sheth, IdrA, ThorZaIN, and HerO.
Ret is one of the best foreign Zergs and one of the best macro players in the world (2-0), Squirtle is a Korean and a pretty good Protoss player from what we've seen in the team leagues (2-1). July has a Golden Mouse, GSL-semifinalist, and one of the scariest opponents (3-1). MC is a two time GSL winner, considered by many the best Protoss at the time, and had demolished everybody at NASL (4-3).
Sheth is a ridiculous ZvTer (3-2). IdrA is known for his ZvT, is one of the best macro players, and consistently is one of the top competing foreigners (3-0). ThorZaIN had been tearing up the competition up to that point without dropping a game and had claimed that his best match-up was his TvT, and given the fact that he had plenty of time before, I'm sure that he had prepared to play PuMa beforehand (4-2). HerO, who had beaten PuMa in their last finals 4-3 who had been destroying everybody recently (4-3).
I consider both of those huge achievements, don't try to downplay them.
On December 12 2011 12:25 tkRage wrote: Stephano is being way way way underestimated.
He's going to win this tournament in unbelievable fashion.
He may not win, but i think he will certainly do much better than this OP projected. People seem to say 1-3 and 0-4 throughout this post. That just seems like a huge underestimation of his skill.
I love Liquid Hero and I really hope for him to do well, but this article overhypes him and puts upon him unrealistic expectations.
he's arguably the current best Protoss player in the world.
Careful now, let's not forget about Puzzle (GSL RO8) or Oz (GSL RO4, taking out MMA). Hero's done phenomenally well at Dreamhack and NASL, but those tournaments had very few Koreans.
Predicting that Hero will beat MVP and win the group is very unrealistic in my opinion. It can happen, but you usually risk setting yourself up for disappointment. I think a more reasonable goal for Hero is to simply make it out of the group stages.
For those of you that know Korean, here is the link to the IMMVP's interview. It's a bit old (April 27th), but very interesting nonetheless. I wish I had the permission to translate it T.T
Nice write-up, though I think some of your predictions are overly confident (i.e. Hero). Nevertheless, it should be an exciting tournament and I'm definitely looking forward to it.
Stephano will do well, but I'm going to have to agree with the MVP assessment.
Not so much because MVP is better (though I do give him an edge), but because the map just favors T in the match up too much I think, especially with Stephano's style.
I just got done watching an older game of Stephano vs MMA on Shakuras and MMA abused the shit out of the platforms in the mid-area, pretty much forcing Stephano to spend tons of energy and micro dropping infested terrans on the platforms any time he tried to push, only to take out one or two tanks. Was pretty sad.
Yeah this...doesn't sound a bit biased in anyway lol...
HerO's great don't get me wrong, but being the best toss in the world because he won dreamhack? Great accomplishment and I love the guy but seriously just stop jumping the gun, because if he doesn't fill your insane expectations of him now you have only yourself to blame :|
On December 12 2011 11:54 dacimvrl wrote: seeing as how stephano got *aped in the IPL TAC by Bischu, odds are against him in this tournament.
Pretty much exactly what i was thinking.... I just don't see the stephano spark
Also......stop whining about hero. There Is no protoss best player, the bias is tolerable HerO is the protoss hope, mc is the protoss bad memories. Whos da best?
On December 12 2011 11:54 dacimvrl wrote: seeing as how stephano got *aped in the IPL TAC by Bischu, odds are against him in this tournament.
Pretty much exactly what i was thinking.... I just don't see the stephano spark
Also......stop whining about hero. There Is no protoss best player, the bias is tolerable HerO is the protoss hope, mc is the protoss bad memories. Whos da best?
On December 12 2011 11:54 dacimvrl wrote: seeing as how stephano got *aped in the IPL TAC by Bischu, odds are against him in this tournament.
Pretty much exactly what i was thinking.... I just don't see the stephano spark
Also......stop whining about hero. There Is no protoss best player, the bias is tolerable HerO is the protoss hope, mc is the protoss bad memories. Whos da best?
There was a time when MC was the scariest player to play, not only because of his skill, but because he got into your head with his ceremonies and swagger. He attended several foreign tournaments, and there was a feeling of general doom whenever MC came to a tournament.
Hero is not "the" protoss hope, he is "a" protoss hope. He won Dreamhack and did great at NASL, but these tournaments were largely foreigners (DRG did go to Dreamhack, where he beat Hero in the group stages, but was knocked out by Puma). Another reason for Hero's recent success is the fact that he has the opportunity to begin with. Liquid does a great job sending him to tournaments, when there a many Koreans that never have this opportunity to participate in this many tournaments.
Hero is good, but this article does him no favors by overhyping him to a point where he is likely to disappoint his fans, Team Liquid, and most importantly himself. Hero suffers from nerves, he does not need to have all of these expectations on him, weighing him down each time he disappoints.
Nice write up. I generally can't quibble too much with your predictions although I think Stephano has a better chance to make it out of the group stages than you probably think he does. As someone mentioned he just took out DRG on ladder and he also just beat July twice. (Thus it seems like his zvz is improving -- perhaps he's made some adjustments.) Now ladder is ladder but given that Koreans haven't quite "figured out" his play style (at least that's what the experts are saying the ladder might not be that bad of a proxy for how he'll perform here -- said another way, if he's a bit of an unknown, then his performance on ladder (where he's truly an unknown) isn't the worst predictor. As much remarked his performance on ladder (at least to his fans) is remarkable -- somewhere around a 74% win rate (taking into account the account he's using already had some activity on it, I believe), which on the KR server makes you the man. At a minimum, his recent ladder performance is a positive.
Match analysis:
It's difficult to see how Stephano beats MVP on Shakuras. His muta-bling game is not nearly as good as his other zvt builds. If he goes mass melee I don't think he survives if he's stick with that composition for too long in the late game. On the other hand, I think if this game goes to the late stages Stephano's ultra, brood lord, infestor army (assuming he goes that route and has the opportunity to put that composition together) may give him a small chance; he was able to steam roll Thorzain's mass ghost build, which is the closest (albeit an imperfect) proxy to MVP's terrifying ultimate late game Terran death ball, so perhaps there's at least a faint glimmer of hope. Also MVP has shown (at least once) vulnerability to upgraded ling timing / counters. NesTea beat him on Shakuras with upgraded lings and ended the game early. Stephano probably would be advised to do a 7 minute roach ling push to punish MVP if he's doing the reactor helions into 3 cc build that seems so common (and that DRG destroyed punished MMA for doing twice at MLG).
I'm going to give Stephano the edge over Hero. One of Stephano's greatest strengths is the ability to multitask and shut down harass. Among Zerg, perhaps only Leenock is better than Stephano at doing so.
Stephano's defense is great; I think he makes MC look bad on dual site if MC goes for a timing attack or a harass based build (DTs or stargate).
Stephano v DRG -- DRG is very solid; I'd give DRG a slight edge but this is a very close match up.
In sum, I think there's a good chance he goes at least 2-2 but it could very easily be a long day for him. I'm not sure he's quite ready for prime time although he has the talent IMO to excel at the highest levels of SC2.
Not that Hero is bad or anything, but I really do think calling him the "best protoss player in the world" is still way too soon to call. Dreamhack and NASL aren't exactly the most competitive tournaments to win. As of right now, there are tons of player like Puzzle, Brown, MC, Sage, naniwa, etc. who may be the best protoss in the world but just haven't had the chance to show exactly how dominant they are yet. So please stop with the bias :/ no need to badmouth hero but don't call him the best toss in the world after placing high in two not very difficult tournaments
i havent seen many of mvp's tvz's but i've seen as of late plenty of stephano's zvt especially vs jjakji. i'm going to call it be a very very long macro game on shakura's but mvp will still win. 45minutes most likely if stephano goes for his strat
On December 12 2011 11:18 monXikk wrote: I think PuMa is arguably the current best Terran player in the world. GL to Stephano!
what kind of troll is this
it makes sense by team liquid logic, he won one tournament, and got second in another big one in the course of one week. therefore he must be the best player of his respective race! (see where im going with this)
And he also has no success in GSL. He's the whole package!
on a serious note though, he has like the 4th highest winnings of any player with no GSL wins lol (MVP, Nestea, and MC are the only ones beating him)
no, this doesnt mean i think he's the best terran, however its hard to say that him not having GSL results matters when he's making more money than the overwhelming majority of them
The fact that Puma won that money by winning way easier tournamets like dreamhack and NASL does actually matter when it comes to determining their skill in terms of tournament results
On December 12 2011 14:27 ch33psh33p wrote: Liquid bias never fails to shine through anywhere!
Good writeup regardless. =)
Yeah, the article was falling in line with my predictions until I saw that basically hero wins everything except a coin flip...
I mean, I don't doubt that MVP can be beaten in TvP, but on evidence along that's a long shot in itself. Hero's PvZ is decent, and though it's DRG's worst MU it's also Stephano's best MU. To be honest, MC's PvT is still above hero's PvT, so if anyone has a chance at shaking MVP's "weak" MU it's going to be MC.
Not saying Hero can't make it, in my prediction I have a 3 way tie for second with MVP at the top, but it's hard to miss bias when you go "Here's head to head stats...I think Hero will take it".
On December 12 2011 14:27 ch33psh33p wrote: Liquid bias never fails to shine through anywhere!
Good writeup regardless. =)
Yeah, the article was falling in line with my predictions until I saw that basically hero wins everything except a coin flip...
I mean, I don't doubt that MVP can be beaten in TvP, but on evidence along that's a long shot in itself. Hero's PvZ is decent, and though it's DRG's worst MU it's also Stephano's best MU. To be honest, MC's PvT is still above hero's PvT, so if anyone has a chance at shaking MVP's "weak" MU it's going to be MC.
Not saying Hero can't make it, in my prediction I have a 3 way tie for second with MVP at the top, but it's hard to miss bias when you go "Here's head to head stats...I think Hero will take it".
I agree, MVP's weakest match up is vP, and he hasn't had time to prepare for blizz cup.
HerO is my hero, but he certainly can't be deemed the best Korean protoss considering his KOREAN performance is less than subpar. Him and Puma only look super good to foreigners because they have most opportunities to play internationally, consider the scenario where the every single participant of GSL had the same opportunities as Hero and Puma, and most likely they wouldnt "achieve" so much.
I've felt Hero has had some nervousness being on the big stage in the past. Although it looks like that might have become a thing of the best with his recent performance, I think this might come back in the equation performing in Korea. His performance may be evident of this or it might have been all the traveling. Either way, I certainly hope these predictions are true.
On December 12 2011 14:27 ch33psh33p wrote: Liquid bias never fails to shine through anywhere!
Good writeup regardless. =)
yeah, not sure how he can be considered the top protoss in the world. In Dreamhack he was 1-1 against koreans (lost vs DRG, beat Puma) and in NASL he was 1-1 as well (beat hwangsin, lost vs Puma) and also beat sen. Then in code A he beat crazymoving before losing to asd. That is not nearly as impressive as it seems.
On December 12 2011 14:27 ch33psh33p wrote: Liquid bias never fails to shine through anywhere!
Good writeup regardless. =)
yeah, not sure how he can be considered the top protoss in the world. In Dreamhack he was 1-1 against koreans (lost vs DRG, beat Puma) and in NASL he was 1-1 as well (beat hwangsin, lost vs Puma) and also beat sen. Then in code A he beat crazymoving before losing to asd. That is not nearly as impressive as it seems.
But when you start looking at what other protoss players there are in the GSL you can certainly make a case for Hero. With all respect to Puzzle and Oz (the two tosses that went furthest in code s), I can see why people don't put them or other protoss players much higher than Hero atm. All I'm saying it's not that far-fetched to make such a case. MC is really inconsistent, Huk is slumping a bit. Who else? Alicia, Jyp or Sage? It's not like they have performed amazing results either.
You know I wouldn't mind the Hero bias ( it's TL they should be allowed to hype their own players ) if it weren't for the analysis of drg afterwards.
Drg has been undeniably more successful than Hero this year. His mlg placements are 5th at anaheim, 3rd raleigh ( knocks out hero), 3rd providence.
Hero's are 6th raleigh, 13th orlando, 10th providence. Yes hero had to run the open bracket at raleigh and drg didn't ( Hero did make pool play), hero was then seeded for orlando and yet finished 3 places and a rank section behind polt who had to fight from the open losers bracket.
Drg has a 71% winrate in korea, Hero has 39%,
Both have won events to get to the blizzard cup, both have been noticeable this year in several tournaments/events but Drg has been far more consistent at making deep runs and beating other korean and high profile players.
Again I like Hero and it's cool to see his praises being sung but it seems awfully hypocritcal to do that then turn around and look at the more successful DRG and be like " Omg why aren't you winning all the things!" Either both have broken out this year and should be watched carefully and critically to see how they develop or both are showing potential but are not ready to truly be compared to the big names.
It's not even that I mind the criticism of DRG because he hasn't been the new zerg boss we thought could sweep into Code S and make terrans cower. It's that he's being criticised for not doing this at the same time Hero is being congratulated while not honestly being the new protoss hope everyone has been insisting he could be since he joined liquid. I have high hopes for both players, I want them both to do well ( I want Hero to pass his up/down group as well) but I still think Hero has more to prove then DRG does.
That said I like most of the preview ( lack of new fishuu art makes me sad though). Everyone else's bio looks nice and a lot of the match predictions make a lot of sense. The infamous oGs 'DT into lose' strategy. is a hilarious line and I will be waiting to see whether or not it gets used by MC or Hero on any of their opponents tonight.
Haha, the part that MVP has auto-win on Shakuras vs Zerg is hilarious lol. So true, I don't think any Zerg could break 3 PFs, 15 siege tanks and 50 ghosts by MVP lol
This thread is going to explode if Hero doesn't do well now. -_-
I don't see him doing well right now for a variety of reasons, but at the same time predicting him to top his group is not so outrageously biased at all as he has the ability to beat everyone in this group without depending on luck.
As for the best Protoss argument, it has nothing to do with the DH victory. He is the best Protoss because when his mind is in the game, he plays better than others - he has better mechanics and a more fundamentally correct style.
On December 12 2011 17:34 Talin wrote: This thread is going to explode if Hero doesn't do well now. -_-
I don't see him doing well right now for a variety of reasons, but at the same time predicting him to top his group is not so outrageously biased at all as he has the ability to beat everyone in this group without depending on luck.
As for the best Protoss argument, it has nothing to do with the DH victory. He is the best Protoss because when his mind is in the game, he plays better than others - he has better mechanics and a more fundamentally correct style.
On December 12 2011 17:34 Talin wrote: This thread is going to explode if Hero doesn't do well now. -_-
I don't see him doing well right now for a variety of reasons, but at the same time predicting him to top his group is not so outrageously biased at all as he has the ability to beat everyone in this group without depending on luck.
As for the best Protoss argument, it has nothing to do with the DH victory. He is the best Protoss because when his mind is in the game, he plays better than others - he has better mechanics and a more fundamentally correct style.
To everyone who furiously refuses to believe HerO to be the [l]currently[l] best Protoss in the world, then who do you guys think is? MC? Oz? Genius? Killer? Huk? Naniwa? Sase?
On December 12 2011 19:31 LittLeD wrote: To everyone who furiously refuses to believe HerO to be the [l]currently[l] best Protoss in the world, then who do you guys think is? MC? Oz? Genius? Killer? Huk? Naniwa? Sase?
Just out of curiousity.
I'd say Huk or MC, since Hero has consistently failed at everything in Korea. He's a lot like Puma in that regard. Does really well in foreign events, but couldn't play well in the GSL to save his life.
Well there goes HerO, sucks he couldn't show his great PvT on his favourite map against MVP. MVP cheesed hard, but it doesn't change the results, HerO certainly can't be deemed as the top protoss considering his build decisions, its often very poor.
lol... HerO's canons at DRG's natural coulda worked if he placed them farther back i think, but mayb not, got too greedy and invested on some poor cutesey plays. Once again, cutesy plays that simply doesn't work enough times on the better players, it might work on the regular foreigners we see how dominate, but this is why HerO just isnt a top Korean protoss yet.
On December 12 2011 20:28 MildSeven wrote: lol... HerO's canons at DRG's natural coulda worked if he placed them farther back i think, but mayb not, got too greedy and invested on some poor cutesey plays. Once again, cutesy plays that simply doesn't work enough times on the better players, it might work on the regular foreigners we see how dominate, but this is why HerO just isnt a top Korean protoss yet.
And the curse of terrible team liquid predictions continues haha. When writing these articles just pick the exact opposite of what your planning to write up and you should get over 50% correct
On December 12 2011 19:15 [F_]aths wrote: I cannot watch it right now, but I need DRG to win the whole thing. I am tired of the naysayers.
If he manage to win the whole thing he'll win me over I promise.
Call me a fanboy but I saw grandeur in his play. But then the naysayers assembled and called DongRaeGu overrated. I so need them to be proven wrong. DRG FIGHTING!
On December 12 2011 21:00 MildSeven wrote: can someone explain to me why MC auto moves through, while DRG has to win to even it up for chance to go through vs Stephano?
If MC wins its 3-1 MVP 3-1 MC 2-2 DRG 2-2 Stefano since Stefano beat DRG Stefano advances. If MC loses its 3-1 DRG 3-1 MVP 2-2 MC 2-2 Stefano since MC beat Stefano MC advances.
On December 12 2011 21:00 MildSeven wrote: can someone explain to me why MC auto moves through, while DRG has to win to even it up for chance to go through vs Stephano?
MC have 2 wins already and 1 lose and a win vs Stephano who is 2-2. So even if he loses since he won vs Stephano he is in. DRG is 2-1 also but he lost to Stephano. If he loses vs MC than Stephano moves on thanks to the fact he won vs DRG.
For foreigners, this is the blockbuster game of the group stages. The best foreign Zerg, playing his very best match-up"
What am i reading?
Im pretty sure the vast majority of the sc2 community considers IdrA and a few others to be far superior to Stephano... this doesng belong in a TL preview i think
On December 12 2011 19:02 Opasnii wrote: AHAHAHAHAH RETARD AND NOOB WHO SAYS STEPHANO LOOSE HERO AND WILL BE HAVE 0-4 AHAHA NOOB! hi your mother/ STEPHANO BEST!!!!!
On December 12 2011 21:41 Cyro wrote: "HerO vs Stephano on Daybreak
For foreigners, this is the blockbuster game of the group stages. The best foreign Zerg, playing his very best match-up"
What am i reading?
Im pretty sure the vast majority of the sc2 community considers IdrA and a few others to be far superior to Stephano... this doesng belong in a TL preview i think
The "sc2 community" isn't writing articles for TL though.
On December 12 2011 21:41 Cyro wrote: "HerO vs Stephano on Daybreak
For foreigners, this is the blockbuster game of the group stages. The best foreign Zerg, playing his very best match-up"
What am i reading?
Im pretty sure the vast majority of the sc2 community considers IdrA and a few others to be far superior to Stephano... this doesng belong in a TL preview i think
The "sc2 community" isn't writing articles for TL though.
Fortunately, I might add.
I just had a horrible vision of the Featured News. "Idra leaves early. Was his opponent too BM?" or sth along that lines.
Stephano won 2 major competitions, is top 10 GM in korea (beated Bomber and others a lot of time on ladder) and now beated DRG, HerO, and only losed againt MVP and MC (fail all in) in bo1.
Please don't compare him to idra, who for example lost against unknowed players at WCG.
On December 12 2011 21:41 Cyro wrote: "HerO vs Stephano on Daybreak
For foreigners, this is the blockbuster game of the group stages. The best foreign Zerg, playing his very best match-up"
What am i reading?
Im pretty sure the vast majority of the sc2 community considers IdrA and a few others to be far superior to Stephano... this doesng belong in a TL preview i think
Fanboyism strikes again. IdrA is really, really good and yes, he's one of the best zergs out there but Stephano is just one step ahead
On December 12 2011 21:57 Mr.xyz wrote: Hello world,
Stephano won 2 major competitions, is top 10 GM in korea (beated Bomber and others a lot of time on ladder) and now beated DRG, HerO, and only losed againt MVP and MC (fail all in) in bo1.
Please don't compare him to idra, who for example lost against unknowed players at WCG.
He is top 10GM korea? Stephano is a great player, but this is hard for me to believe that he would be top 10GM korea in such a short time? Where do you have that information from? Any reliable source?
On December 12 2011 21:57 Mr.xyz wrote: Hello world,
Stephano won 2 major competitions, is top 10 GM in korea (beated Bomber and others a lot of time on ladder) and now beated DRG, HerO, and only losed againt MVP and MC (fail all in) in bo1.
Please don't compare him to idra, who for example lost against unknowed players at WCG.
didn't DRG lost to stephano due to a failed all in? AND A BEST OF 1 AT THAT :O
stephano also beat Hero... damn... quite a shocker since the rest of the players had a hard time against hero tonight...
Great post tl^^ But the thing I want to point out is that i think your underestimating Stephano even though he hasn't done much lately I think he will go far, but that's propably partly because im a zerg player myself ;P
I hope everyone who keeps praising the "ladder heroes" finally have a wake up call today, because ladder performance doesn't equal tournament performance. I don't care how good someone does in ladder, he could be top 1 in all ladders world wide for all I care, but if they don't consistently win tournaments it doesn't equal shit.
Stephano is a good player I'll give him that, but people are blowing him way, way out of proportion. Best foreginer is overly exaggerated when we have the likes of Naniwa, HuK and IdrA, who have way more results under their belts and more consistency so far. Stephano has only 2 tournaments and recently came from DH in what he called one of his most embarrassing SC2 runs. Wake the hell up people, he is good, but not best in the world, not best zerg nor best foreigner.
Who cares if Stephano beat Bomber in stupid Ladder, IdrA beat Bomber at MLG Orlando, in a god damn huge tournament where its all at (a tournament in which Stephano didn't even make it to championship sunday) , IdrA had the more impressive performance in one of his greatest macro games.
I never said he was the best, I mean since september, compare his results to Idra and Huk ? He lost against NaNiwa at dreamhack, but Naniwa is at the same level, he is in blizzard cup, not Idra and Huk.
Stephano won IPL3 (beated MMA 2-0 in qualifs, Inori, lucky) and ESWC (beated MKP). Now he is in korea and beats every korean 'star' on ladder.
How the fuck could it be "overly" exaggerated ?
Idra and Huk are very good players, like him, that's all. But Idra doesn't have "way more results".
Yeah he is the america and stuff, but stephano is in korea for 3 months, we'll see him against Idra after that
Dunno if anyone shares my view but i feel like the fact that these matches are best of 1 are an insult to the players and the community It sure as hell doesn't feel like the hyped 'last tourmanent of the year that shows off all this year's champions'.
On December 12 2011 22:33 Destructicon wrote: I hope everyone who keeps praising the "ladder heroes" finally have a wake up call today, because ladder performance doesn't equal tournament performance. I don't care how good someone does in ladder, he could be top 1 in all ladders world wide for all I care, but if they don't consistently win tournaments it doesn't equal shit.
Stephano is a good player I'll give him that, but people are blowing him way, way out of proportion. Best foreginer is overly exaggerated when we have the likes of Naniwa, HuK and IdrA, who have way more results under their belts and more consistency so far. Stephano has only 2 tournaments and recently came from DH in what he called one of his most embarrassing SC2 runs. Wake the hell up people, he is good, but not best in the world, not best zerg nor best foreigner.
Who cares if Stephano beat Bomber in stupid Ladder, IdrA beat Bomber at MLG Orlando, in a god damn huge tournament where its all at (a tournament in which Stephano didn't even make it to championship sunday) , IdrA had the more impressive performance in one of his greatest macro games.
Please, Idra have more restults then Stephano? Is more consisttent player? How blind are you?
Idra had one good period of time, when he play realy well - from IEM Guangzhou to MLG Orlando. Now he play like a shit, losing to some low/mid TOP EU players...
Naniwa had one (ONE!) realy good event, MLG...
Only Huk doing great all the time, in GSL, MLG etc.
On December 12 2011 10:42 DreamScaR wrote: I have to say, I think MVP gets destroyed and only gets a win off of MC.
To even think that Stephano would do better then MVP is false even in the most vivid of dreams. MVP is the greatest player in the world that only a select few can even hope to match (ie. MMA and NesTea) all others have to get extreamly lucky to find that extreamly small chink in his armor. Him losing even a single match in this group is less then likely to occur. The one getting destroyed in these matchups will in all likelyhood be Stephano seeing how all the Koreans in here are all far superior to him.
On December 12 2011 22:33 Destructicon wrote: I hope everyone who keeps praising the "ladder heroes" finally have a wake up call today, because ladder performance doesn't equal tournament performance. I don't care how good someone does in ladder, he could be top 1 in all ladders world wide for all I care, but if they don't consistently win tournaments it doesn't equal shit.
Stephano is a good player I'll give him that, but people are blowing him way, way out of proportion. Best foreginer is overly exaggerated when we have the likes of Naniwa, HuK and IdrA, who have way more results under their belts and more consistency so far. Stephano has only 2 tournaments and recently came from DH in what he called one of his most embarrassing SC2 runs. Wake the hell up people, he is good, but not best in the world, not best zerg nor best foreigner.
Who cares if Stephano beat Bomber in stupid Ladder, IdrA beat Bomber at MLG Orlando, in a god damn huge tournament where its all at (a tournament in which Stephano didn't even make it to championship sunday) , IdrA had the more impressive performance in one of his greatest macro games.
Please, Idra have more restults then Stephano? Is more consisttent player? How blind are you?
Idra had one good period of time, when he play realy well - from IEM Guangzhou to MLG Orlando. Now he play like a shit, losing to some low/mid TOP EU players...
Naniwa had one (ONE!) realy good event, MLG...
Only Huk doing great all the time, in GSL, MLG etc.
I think you mean idra had one bad period of time that being over the summer. An since then has rebounded amazingly. Players lose all the time an to variations of skill levels. NesTea losing to Naniwa twice dosnt mean that NesTea is trash cause he lost to a lesser player. Stephano is far from the best foreigner in the land seeing as how he hasn't even made it to a single GSL like Huk, Nani, IdrA, an Sjow to name a few. All of these players are better then him cause of that singular fact even though all are of far more skill an achievement then him not only over this year but lifetime as well. So to even begin to think that Stephano is better then any other foreigner is just outright false in my opinion based on the facts. He's never made a GSL an just isn't as good as many of the Top tier or even 5 foreigners we currently have today.
Stephano 2-2 in his group - Koreans are realy far superior... He would win with MC in macro game, he made a bad decision (going all in), and is the only reason why he didnt advance. Format didnt help too, bo1 is just stupid idea...
On December 12 2011 22:33 Destructicon wrote: I hope everyone who keeps praising the "ladder heroes" finally have a wake up call today, because ladder performance doesn't equal tournament performance. I don't care how good someone does in ladder, he could be top 1 in all ladders world wide for all I care, but if they don't consistently win tournaments it doesn't equal shit.
Stephano is a good player I'll give him that, but people are blowing him way, way out of proportion. Best foreginer is overly exaggerated when we have the likes of Naniwa, HuK and IdrA, who have way more results under their belts and more consistency so far. Stephano has only 2 tournaments and recently came from DH in what he called one of his most embarrassing SC2 runs. Wake the hell up people, he is good, but not best in the world, not best zerg nor best foreigner.
Who cares if Stephano beat Bomber in stupid Ladder, IdrA beat Bomber at MLG Orlando, in a god damn huge tournament where its all at (a tournament in which Stephano didn't even make it to championship sunday) , IdrA had the more impressive performance in one of his greatest macro games.
Please, Idra have more restults then Stephano? Is more consisttent player? How blind are you?
Idra had one good period of time, when he play realy well - from IEM Guangzhou to MLG Orlando. Now he play like a shit, losing to some low/mid TOP EU players...
Naniwa had one (ONE!) realy good event, MLG...
Only Huk doing great all the time, in GSL, MLG etc.
I think you mean idra had one bad period of time that being over the summer. An since then has rebounded amazingly. Players lose all the time an to variations of skill levels. NesTea losing to Naniwa twice dosnt mean that NesTea is trash cause he lost to a lesser player. Stephano is far from the best foreigner in the land seeing as how he hasn't even made it to a single GSL like Huk, Nani, IdrA, an Sjow to name a few. All of these players are better then him cause of that singular fact even though all are of far more skill an achievement then him not only over this year but lifetime as well. So to even begin to think that Stephano is better then any other foreigner is just outright false in my opinion based on the facts. He's never made a GSL an just isn't as good as many of the Top tier or even 5 foreigners we currently have today.
On December 12 2011 22:33 Destructicon wrote: I hope everyone who keeps praising the "ladder heroes" finally have a wake up call today, because ladder performance doesn't equal tournament performance. I don't care how good someone does in ladder, he could be top 1 in all ladders world wide for all I care, but if they don't consistently win tournaments it doesn't equal shit.
Stephano is a good player I'll give him that, but people are blowing him way, way out of proportion. Best foreginer is overly exaggerated when we have the likes of Naniwa, HuK and IdrA, who have way more results under their belts and more consistency so far. Stephano has only 2 tournaments and recently came from DH in what he called one of his most embarrassing SC2 runs. Wake the hell up people, he is good, but not best in the world, not best zerg nor best foreigner.
Who cares if Stephano beat Bomber in stupid Ladder, IdrA beat Bomber at MLG Orlando, in a god damn huge tournament where its all at (a tournament in which Stephano didn't even make it to championship sunday) , IdrA had the more impressive performance in one of his greatest macro games.
Just poor hate buddy.
Idra WCG 3-3 vs no names Stephano 2-2 vs the best players in the world. MVP even goes out and say how good a player Stephano is and says he can get into code S
It was one tiny mistakes vs MC or els he would have gone true
And you talking about results fact is Stephano won ESWC IPL 3 and IPL 4 UK qualifier while Idra won vs a horrible opposition at IEM china where he beat Elfi in the final.
On December 12 2011 22:33 Destructicon wrote: I hope everyone who keeps praising the "ladder heroes" finally have a wake up call today, because ladder performance doesn't equal tournament performance. I don't care how good someone does in ladder, he could be top 1 in all ladders world wide for all I care, but if they don't consistently win tournaments it doesn't equal shit.
Stephano is a good player I'll give him that, but people are blowing him way, way out of proportion. Best foreginer is overly exaggerated when we have the likes of Naniwa, HuK and IdrA, who have way more results under their belts and more consistency so far. Stephano has only 2 tournaments and recently came from DH in what he called one of his most embarrassing SC2 runs. Wake the hell up people, he is good, but not best in the world, not best zerg nor best foreigner.
Who cares if Stephano beat Bomber in stupid Ladder, IdrA beat Bomber at MLG Orlando, in a god damn huge tournament where its all at (a tournament in which Stephano didn't even make it to championship sunday) , IdrA had the more impressive performance in one of his greatest macro games.
Please, Idra have more restults then Stephano? Is more consisttent player? How blind are you?
Idra had one good period of time, when he play realy well - from IEM Guangzhou to MLG Orlando. Now he play like a shit, losing to some low/mid TOP EU players...
Naniwa had one (ONE!) realy good event, MLG...
Only Huk doing great all the time, in GSL, MLG etc.
I think you mean idra had one bad period of time that being over the summer. An since then has rebounded amazingly. Players lose all the time an to variations of skill levels. NesTea losing to Naniwa twice dosnt mean that NesTea is trash cause he lost to a lesser player. Stephano is far from the best foreigner in the land seeing as how he hasn't even made it to a single GSL like Huk, Nani, IdrA, an Sjow to name a few. All of these players are better then him cause of that singular fact even though all are of far more skill an achievement then him not only over this year but lifetime as well. So to even begin to think that Stephano is better then any other foreigner is just outright false in my opinion based on the facts. He's never made a GSL an just isn't as good as many of the Top tier or even 5 foreigners we currently have today.
Do you really think all of that 0_o ? Wow... For Huk ok, but Idra, naniwa and sjow in GSL ? they didn't perfom well at all, so it's easy to say that if a player go to gsl, he is one of the best.
Stephano could go to GSL since he was invited to GSL too, ahem... He refused it, cause he doesn't want to stay too long in korea (the next gsl will be for 4 months). But he played a bo7 against MVPTAils (who is in code A) and won 4-1.
I will not go ahead to prove something which in my opinion, is obvious.. He is NOT the best foreigner, but he is one of the best, obviously !
On December 12 2011 23:24 Catatonic wrote: I think you mean idra had one bad period of time that being over the summer. An since then has rebounded amazingly. Players lose all the time an to variations of skill levels. NesTea losing to Naniwa twice dosnt mean that NesTea is trash cause he lost to a lesser player. Stephano is far from the best foreigner in the land seeing as how he hasn't even made it to a single GSL like Huk, Nani, IdrA, an Sjow to name a few. All of these players are better then him cause of that singular fact even though all are of far more skill an achievement then him not only over this year but lifetime as well. So to even begin to think that Stephano is better then any other foreigner is just outright false in my opinion based on the facts. He's never made a GSL an just isn't as good as many of the Top tier or even 5 foreigners we currently have today.
I hope you are trolling... Stephano never had a chance to play in Korea before, so your argument is just stupid
Imho Stephano is not best foreigner, but right now is much better then Sjow (lol!), Nani, and Idra ez. Players lose all the time? Well Idra for sure... With some random players...
Huk train in Korea for so long time that he must preform well, and he have results.
Back to the topic. Since Part 2 should be posted in a few hours lets hope some other staffer will predict the results. Preferably zere or tree.hugger. (due to their LB rank^^)
IdrA in 2011 has won, Asus RoG Stars Invite, MLG North American Invitational, IEM Guangzhou, IGN Proleague S1 and WCG US Qualifier 2011. Not only that IdrA has consistently finished in the top 2-4 at least in MLGs and other international tournaments, which is quite remarkable. Yes he had a reached a very low period in the summer but rebound quite nicely and is now a force to be reckoned with.
Stephano has posted good results yes, but not in any big international tournament until IPL 3 and ESWC, Stephano also seems to lack consistency since he failed to get deep at MLG Orlando or Dreamhack Winter. In my opinion its too soon to label him as top foreigner or top foreign zerg, not enough tournaments played, not enough consistency seen.
IdrA is an absolute monster at the moment. I also fail to see how Stephano is better then Nani when just as of recently Nani won the MLG Global Invitational, and also got 2nd at MLG Providance after a great run, as well as consistently posting top 1 and 2 finishes trough out the year.
DRG also pointed out that Stephano seems to have a simple to figure out style that, once Koreans and everyone else gets used to, he can become a comfortable opponent, MVP proved just that when he hard countered Stephano after studying some replays that his GF sent him of Stephano's ladder run.
Liquipedia is your friend, if you don't believe me the results speak for themselves, and that's what matters.
3/10 predictions right...well I guess that's Starcraft. Some great games tonight and I actually enjoyed the BO1 format it made it exciting up until the final game.
On December 12 2011 23:50 Destructicon wrote: IdrA in 2011 has won, Asus RoG Stars Invite, MLG North American Invitational, IEM Guangzhou, IGN Proleague S1 and WCG US Qualifier 2011. Not only that IdrA has consistently finished in the top 2-4 at least in MLGs and other international tournaments, which is quite remarkable. Yes he had a reached a very low period in the summer but rebound quite nicely and is now a force to be reckoned with.
Stephano has posted good results yes, but not in any big international tournament until IPL 3 and ESWC, Stephano also seems to lack consistency since he failed to get deep at MLG Orlando or Dreamhack Winter. In my opinion its too soon to label him as top foreigner or top foreign zerg, not enough tournaments played, not enough consistency seen.
IdrA is an absolute monster at the moment. I also fail to see how Stephano is better then Nani when just as of recently Nani won the MLG Global Invitational, and also got 2nd at MLG Providance after a great run, as well as consistently posting top 1 and 2 finishes trough out the year.
DRG also pointed out that Stephano seems to have a simple to figure out style that, once Koreans and everyone else gets used to, he can become a comfortable opponent, MVP proved just that when he hard countered Stephano after studying some replays that his GF sent him of Stephano's ladder run.
Liquipedia is your friend, if you don't believe me the results speak for themselves, and that's what matters.
Stephano wins 40% of all the tournament he enters. And lets disect you list shall we. MLG was like a year ago vs only NA players. IPL 1 was an online cup vs only NA players. WCG US qualifier you mistaken there was no qualifier. Idra only represented US becuase his team was kind enough to send him there
At the same time Idra been knocked out in ESWC by a relative unknown zerg. Knocked out in IPL 3. Knocked out in dreamhack winter just like Stephano. Knocked out in WCG by unknowns. You cant really say Stephano is inconsistence when Idra is even more so. And Idra havent really looked good at all in all the MLG only MLG he did look good was the one where he beat a Bomber. And then again Bomber is in a massive slump atm. Didnt Idra lose to trimaster like 2 mlg ago and finish like very low
And DRG pointed out nothing he sayd there is hardcounters to stephano ZvZ build on that map and ofcourse there is. its a ZvZ. There is hard counters to everything.
I am not saying Idra is a bad zerg but Stephano´s achivements is clearly much more impressive l8tly. His great run at blizzard cup and his insane ladder run on the korean GM that gaved him a rank 10 spot with an insane win ratio is also something to take into account.
Just to put it into perspective Idra is in masters with a 51% win ratio and Stephano is top 10 GM with a 72% win ratio. Ofcourse ladder dont mean much but it means something an ofcourse Stephano and Idra are not gonna trow games simply becuase they so competitive in nature.
And finaly this argument I keep having vs the Idra fans are starting to become really pointless. Yes im a Stephano fan but I used to be an Idra fan but if you have to be 100% objective Stephano atm got bigger achievements then Idra. And so what who the feck cares.
Fact : MVP is overwhemling against MC in score actually.
1.GSTL Feb IM vs oGs: MVP wins 2.GSL August Ro.32 : MVP wins 3 WCG 2011 Korean quialifier Ro.16 : 2-1 for MVP 4.MLG Providence : 4-2 for MVP 5.Blizzard Cup : MVP wins.
On December 12 2011 23:50 Destructicon wrote: IdrA in 2011 has won, Asus RoG Stars Invite, MLG North American Invitational, IEM Guangzhou, IGN Proleague S1 and WCG US Qualifier 2011. Not only that IdrA has consistently finished in the top 2-4 at least in MLGs and other international tournaments, which is quite remarkable. Yes he had a reached a very low period in the summer but rebound quite nicely and is now a force to be reckoned with.
Stephano has posted good results yes, but not in any big international tournament until IPL 3 and ESWC, Stephano also seems to lack consistency since he failed to get deep at MLG Orlando or Dreamhack Winter. In my opinion its too soon to label him as top foreigner or top foreign zerg, not enough tournaments played, not enough consistency seen.
IdrA is an absolute monster at the moment. I also fail to see how Stephano is better then Nani when just as of recently Nani won the MLG Global Invitational, and also got 2nd at MLG Providance after a great run, as well as consistently posting top 1 and 2 finishes trough out the year.
DRG also pointed out that Stephano seems to have a simple to figure out style that, once Koreans and everyone else gets used to, he can become a comfortable opponent, MVP proved just that when he hard countered Stephano after studying some replays that his GF sent him of Stephano's ladder run.
Liquipedia is your friend, if you don't believe me the results speak for themselves, and that's what matters.
Going by your (and most of TL) definition of big tournaments* - MLG North American Invitational, IPL 1, WCG US Qalifier aren't big tournaments. That leaves Asus RoG and IEM Guangzhou and the questionable MLG's (sorry the MLG ranking system makes it easy for Idra to get top 8).
Also "Yes he had a reached a very low period in the summer but rebound quite nicely and is now a force to be reckoned with." His result in WCG 2011 makes your claim questionable. Loosing to Capoh (who the hell is he... Like 1 result in the last year according to liquipedia), and Orly.....
The Stephano part is mostly valid. But you forgot about IPL4 UK qualifier (and you mentioned the WCG qualifier for Idra) - which even have some koreans in it (Ryung or Tail ring any bell?). Still i have to agree that Stephano doesn't always win - DHW2011 being the prime example.
In my opinion, I believe that Stephano validated himself today. Yes he did not advance, but he did manage to go 2-2 in a group of some of the world's best players. There were people saying that he was the best player in the world, and people saying that he is just another guy who would flop in Korea. In the end, he did neither, and proved that while he may not be the "world's best player", he can certainly hold with Korea's finest. I'd say he is high Code A or low Code S level right now.
As for Hero, I just feel really bad for him. Unrealistic expectations are put upon him every time he enters a tournament. There was a reason why Hero was relatively unknown while part of oGs: There were several members on the team that were better than him. When Liquid picked him up on their roster, suddenly everyone had these expectations of him, and they just were not realistic. Hero did well at a lot of tournament because he suddenly has so many new opportunities to play in tournaments with Liquid, and that is great. However, compared to other Koreans, Hero unfortunately is still just above average.
On December 13 2011 00:31 Bagration wrote: In my opinion, I believe that Stephano validated himself today. Yes he did not advance, but he did manage to go 2-2 in a group of some of the world's best players. There were people saying that he was the best player in the world, and people saying that he is just another guy who would flop in Korea. In the end, he did neither, and proved that while he may not be the "world's best player", he can certainly hold with Korea's finest. I'd say he is high Code A or low Code S level right now.
As for Hero, I just feel really bad for him. Unrealistic expectations are put upon him every time he enters a tournament. There was a reason why Hero was relatively unknown while part of oGs: There were several members on the team that were better than him. When Liquid picked him up on their roster, suddenly everyone had these expectations of him, and they just were not realistic. Hero did well at a lot of tournament because he suddenly has so many new opportunities to play in tournaments with Liquid, and that is great. However, compared to other Koreans, Hero unfortunately is still just above average.
I think thats abit hard towards Hero, Bagration. Everyone can have a bad day and lets not forget this was the hardest group with some of the worlds best players in.
On December 13 2011 00:35 Acidosis wrote: DRG is back. Too bad he lost to Stephano but ZvZ is always so volatile.
Did you watch the match? becuase what I saw was 2 amasing zerg playing an incredible high lvl ZvZ with some insane micro that Stephano somehow came out stronger then his opponent
Stephano´s is an amasing ZvZ player and that was the only result I was sure Stephano would take
On December 13 2011 00:35 Acidosis wrote: DRG is back. Too bad he lost to Stephano but ZvZ is always so volatile.
Did you watch the match? becuase what I saw was 2 amasing zerg playing an incredible high lvl ZvZ with some insane micro that Stephano somehow came out stronger then his opponent
Stephano´s is an amasing ZvZ player and that was the only result I was sure Stephano would take
yeah build order-wise..I thought stephano was dead by the 3rd minute of the game, he held with micro and crucial targeting. it was a beautiful outplay by stephano. not giving him credit for that game would be pretty selfish
On December 13 2011 00:31 Bagration wrote: In my opinion, I believe that Stephano validated himself today. Yes he did not advance, but he did manage to go 2-2 in a group of some of the world's best players. There were people saying that he was the best player in the world, and people saying that he is just another guy who would flop in Korea. In the end, he did neither, and proved that while he may not be the "world's best player", he can certainly hold with Korea's finest. I'd say he is high Code A or low Code S level right now.
As for Hero, I just feel really bad for him. Unrealistic expectations are put upon him every time he enters a tournament. There was a reason why Hero was relatively unknown while part of oGs: There were several members on the team that were better than him. When Liquid picked him up on their roster, suddenly everyone had these expectations of him, and they just were not realistic. Hero did well at a lot of tournament because he suddenly has so many new opportunities to play in tournaments with Liquid, and that is great. However, compared to other Koreans, Hero unfortunately is still just above average.
I think thats abit hard towards Hero, Bagration. Everyone can have a bad day and lets not forget this was the hardest group with some of the worlds best players in.
Yes, I agree this was a bad day for Hero. I also feel that being on Liquid and gaining so much tournament experience has certainly helped his play. But as a player that suffers from nerves, I just feel that having all of these high expectations on Hero is not the best thing to do for his development as a player. I want Hero to do well, and hope he does better in the future. But part of the problem is the expectation gap. Hero is better than most Koreans, but when tournament previews like this one predict that he wins the entire group, and predicts that he takes out players like MVP, 9 times out of ten, people will be disappointed.
I think that a more reasonable expectation for Hero this tournament was to simply advance from the group stage. We expect him to win everything, especially after his Dreamhack performance, and as a player, it is difficult to fall short of expectations. He is a great player, certainly better than many Korean pros, but he is not Code S caliber (yet).
On December 12 2011 23:46 Sailincieri wrote: Its bo1 so any predictions are just useless... With that format even TLO could win this group 4-0...
This is kinda stupid statement. GSL has been bo1 in ro16 since forever, and in most cases better players still advanced. But bo3 is of course much better.
On December 13 2011 00:31 Bagration wrote: In my opinion, I believe that Stephano validated himself today. Yes he did not advance, but he did manage to go 2-2 in a group of some of the world's best players. There were people saying that he was the best player in the world, and people saying that he is just another guy who would flop in Korea. In the end, he did neither, and proved that while he may not be the "world's best player", he can certainly hold with Korea's finest. I'd say he is high Code A or low Code S level right now.
As for Hero, I just feel really bad for him. Unrealistic expectations are put upon him every time he enters a tournament. There was a reason why Hero was relatively unknown while part of oGs: There were several members on the team that were better than him. When Liquid picked him up on their roster, suddenly everyone had these expectations of him, and they just were not realistic. Hero did well at a lot of tournament because he suddenly has so many new opportunities to play in tournaments with Liquid, and that is great. However, compared to other Koreans, Hero unfortunately is still just above average.
I think thats abit hard towards Hero, Bagration. Everyone can have a bad day and lets not forget this was the hardest group with some of the worlds best players in.
The thing is it's not just one day. It's everyday he plays a tournament in Korea.
On December 12 2011 23:46 Sailincieri wrote: Its bo1 so any predictions are just useless... With that format even TLO could win this group 4-0...
This is kinda stupid statement. GSL has been bo1 in ro16 since forever, and in most cases better players still advanced. But bo3 is of course much better.
On December 13 2011 01:27 FuFighter wrote: Why do people seem to think that articles posted on TL have to be unbiased?
Anyways: MC fightiiiiiing!
They don't HAVE to be. But especially when they turn out completely wrong of course you are gonna get criticized for them .
People should criticize them for being wrong then, not for being biased. ;-) I think the article was fine and well written. Maybe it was biased but it wasn't like "Hero is gonna win because he is a liquid player". Most of the time he was given a slight edge so I think it's fine. It's definitely more fun than picking MVP
On December 13 2011 01:27 FuFighter wrote: Why do people seem to think that articles posted on TL have to be unbiased?
Anyways: MC fightiiiiiing!
They don't HAVE to be. But especially when they turn out completely wrong of course you are gonna get criticized for them .
People should criticize them for being wrong then, not for being biased. ;-) I think the article was fine and well written. Maybe it was biased but it wasn't like "Hero is gonna win because he is a liquid player". Most of the time he was given a slight edge so I think it's fine. It's definitely more fun than picking MVP
It was more like "Hero is gonna win because he's the best Korean protoss. And we wouldn't think that if he wasn't on teamliquid" .
Hero > MVP is like the least expected result out of any prediction made in this post... Hero is so scared of MVP he'll self destruct before mid late game.
On December 12 2011 10:45 Micket wrote: For what reasons is Hero being given title of 'best Protoss player in the world'? He can't get past 2nd round of Code A, has an awful win rate in Korea, and stomps foreigners. He is incredibly creative and smart, but trashing around foreigners will always make you look good.
Where is the oZ hype? Brown? Parting? Heck, MC deserves more hype, guy is goooood.
Yup, if Hero were still in oGs he would still be a middle of pack protoss. He deserves credit though for being able to consistently beat weaker players than him, I don't think his problem is being 'nervous' from that perspective.. it's more like in Korea there aren't too many pro players weaker than him.
On December 12 2011 10:45 Micket wrote: For what reasons is Hero being given title of 'best Protoss player in the world'? He can't get past 2nd round of Code A, has an awful win rate in Korea, and stomps foreigners. He is incredibly creative and smart, but trashing around foreigners will always make you look good.
Where is the oZ hype? Brown? Parting? Heck, MC deserves more hype, guy is goooood.
Yup, if Hero were still in oGs he would still be a middle of pack protoss. He deserves credit though for being able to consistently beat weaker players than him, I don't think his problem is being 'nervous' from that perspective.. it's more like in Korea there aren't too many pro players weaker than him.
Yes, he was considered a top prospect while being on oGs by people who paid attention to the scene.
You don't think his problem is nerves, yet today he played a self-destructive game in each set, and playing like that would have been beaten by most mid-tier foreigners as well?
- Slamming his army into Roaches chasing a Queen that he has no chance of killing, then giving up. - Cannoning DRG's natural in the midgame, then giving up. - Losing a Warp Prism to one single Queen. - Going Nexus first in PvP without being aware of the map features or blocking / chasing down the Probe in his base. - Going Nexus first in PvT without even fully scouting mvp's base (and his Probe was basically free to look anywhere for a full minute).
Anyone with a modicum of common sense would realize that the games he played today were OBVIOUSLY not representative of his skill level and that none of those mistakes and decisions are actually normal when his mind is in the right place. But then again, there isn't much of common sense on TL these days.
He's only been exposed to playing games on the big stage for the last 2 or 3 months, it's not his skill (or lack thereof) that is holding him back. He has confidence issues, nerve issues, and at a stretch his decision making isn't the best, but these things come naturally from maturity and experience.
On December 13 2011 01:27 FuFighter wrote: Why do people seem to think that articles posted on TL have to be unbiased?
Anyways: MC fightiiiiiing!
They don't HAVE to be. But especially when they turn out completely wrong of course you are gonna get criticized for them .
People should criticize them for being wrong then, not for being biased. ;-) I think the article was fine and well written. Maybe it was biased but it wasn't like "Hero is gonna win because he is a liquid player". Most of the time he was given a slight edge so I think it's fine. It's definitely more fun than picking MVP
It was more like "Hero is gonna win because he's the best Korean protoss. And we wouldn't think that if he wasn't on teamliquid" .
Fair enough :D Though I think it's fair to say that - in his current form - he is better or at least more consistent than MC which would make him the best Protoss at this particular Tournament
So the real question would be: is the article "just" biased or flat out wrong. I think it's just biased and not 100% wishful thinking. Then again... I'm a TL and Hero fanboy
On December 12 2011 10:45 Micket wrote: For what reasons is Hero being given title of 'best Protoss player in the world'? He can't get past 2nd round of Code A, has an awful win rate in Korea, and stomps foreigners. He is incredibly creative and smart, but trashing around foreigners will always make you look good.
Where is the oZ hype? Brown? Parting? Heck, MC deserves more hype, guy is goooood.
Yup, if Hero were still in oGs he would still be a middle of pack protoss. He deserves credit though for being able to consistently beat weaker players than him, I don't think his problem is being 'nervous' from that perspective.. it's more like in Korea there aren't too many pro players weaker than him.
Yes, he was considered a top prospect while being on oGs by people who paid attention to the scene.
You don't think his problem is nerves, yet today he played a self-destructive game in each set, and playing like that would have been beaten by most mid-tier foreigners as well?
- Slamming his army into Roaches chasing a Queen that he has no chance of killing, then giving up. - Cannoning DRG's natural in the midgame, then giving up. - Losing a Warp Prism to one single Queen. - Going Nexus first in PvP without being aware of the map features or blocking / chasing down the Probe in his base. - Going Nexus first in PvT without even fully scouting mvp's base (and his Probe was basically free to look anywhere for a full minute).
Anyone with a modicum of common sense would realize that the games he played today were OBVIOUSLY not representative of his skill level and that none of those mistakes and decisions are actually normal when his mind is in the right place. But then again, there isn't much of common sense on TL these days.
He's only been exposed to playing games on the big stage for the last 2 or 3 months, it's not his skill (or lack thereof) that is holding him back. He has confidence issues, nerve issues, and at a stretch his decision making isn't the best, but these things come naturally from maturity and experience.
Oh don't get me wrong, he is incredibly talented and creative, and will continue to develop every matchup in the right direction. He just ain't the best Protoss in the world and I simply hate blind overhyping.
On December 12 2011 10:45 Micket wrote: For what reasons is Hero being given title of 'best Protoss player in the world'? He can't get past 2nd round of Code A, has an awful win rate in Korea, and stomps foreigners. He is incredibly creative and smart, but trashing around foreigners will always make you look good.
Where is the oZ hype? Brown? Parting? Heck, MC deserves more hype, guy is goooood.
Yup, if Hero were still in oGs he would still be a middle of pack protoss. He deserves credit though for being able to consistently beat weaker players than him, I don't think his problem is being 'nervous' from that perspective.. it's more like in Korea there aren't too many pro players weaker than him.
Yes, he was considered a top prospect while being on oGs by people who paid attention to the scene.
You don't think his problem is nerves, yet today he played a self-destructive game in each set, and playing like that would have been beaten by most mid-tier foreigners as well?
- Slamming his army into Roaches chasing a Queen that he has no chance of killing, then giving up. - Cannoning DRG's natural in the midgame, then giving up. - Losing a Warp Prism to one single Queen. - Going Nexus first in PvP without being aware of the map features or blocking / chasing down the Probe in his base. - Going Nexus first in PvT without even fully scouting mvp's base (and his Probe was basically free to look anywhere for a full minute).
Anyone with a modicum of common sense would realize that the games he played today were OBVIOUSLY not representative of his skill level and that none of those mistakes and decisions are actually normal when his mind is in the right place. But then again, there isn't much of common sense on TL these days.
He's only been exposed to playing games on the big stage for the last 2 or 3 months, it's not his skill (or lack thereof) that is holding him back. He has confidence issues, nerve issues, and at a stretch his decision making isn't the best, but these things come naturally from maturity and experience.
No it's not. Nerves or not he was the weakest player in this group and taking a look at Heros history, the results that occurred today are exactly what should have happened.
Truly a pleasure to read something this well written. I might not agree with the predictions, but they are interesting and expressed with a strong personal voice. Well done!
On December 13 2011 01:27 FuFighter wrote: Why do people seem to think that articles posted on TL have to be unbiased?
Anyways: MC fightiiiiiing!
They don't HAVE to be. But especially when they turn out completely wrong of course you are gonna get criticized for them .
People should criticize them for being wrong then, not for being biased. ;-) I think the article was fine and well written. Maybe it was biased but it wasn't like "Hero is gonna win because he is a liquid player". Most of the time he was given a slight edge so I think it's fine. It's definitely more fun than picking MVP
well in the end he was giving him a slight edge because he is liquid. so i dont get ur point really ;(
On December 12 2011 10:45 Micket wrote: For what reasons is Hero being given title of 'best Protoss player in the world'? He can't get past 2nd round of Code A, has an awful win rate in Korea, and stomps foreigners. He is incredibly creative and smart, but trashing around foreigners will always make you look good.
Where is the oZ hype? Brown? Parting? Heck, MC deserves more hype, guy is goooood.
Yup, if Hero were still in oGs he would still be a middle of pack protoss. He deserves credit though for being able to consistently beat weaker players than him, I don't think his problem is being 'nervous' from that perspective.. it's more like in Korea there aren't too many pro players weaker than him.
Yes, he was considered a top prospect while being on oGs by people who paid attention to the scene.
You don't think his problem is nerves, yet today he played a self-destructive game in each set, and playing like that would have been beaten by most mid-tier foreigners as well?
- Slamming his army into Roaches chasing a Queen that he has no chance of killing, then giving up. - Cannoning DRG's natural in the midgame, then giving up. - Losing a Warp Prism to one single Queen. - Going Nexus first in PvP without being aware of the map features or blocking / chasing down the Probe in his base. - Going Nexus first in PvT without even fully scouting mvp's base (and his Probe was basically free to look anywhere for a full minute).
Anyone with a modicum of common sense would realize that the games he played today were OBVIOUSLY not representative of his skill level and that none of those mistakes and decisions are actually normal when his mind is in the right place. But then again, there isn't much of common sense on TL these days.
He's only been exposed to playing games on the big stage for the last 2 or 3 months, it's not his skill (or lack thereof) that is holding him back. He has confidence issues, nerve issues, and at a stretch his decision making isn't the best, but these things come naturally from maturity and experience.
He went for cannon rush because he was already out of the tournament. He only lost to MC because he blocked his ramp with his cannon, which was at the time a difficult decision to make, and his zealots couldn't chase after the probe. Antiga Shipyard is possibly the most common map for terrans to do 1 rax expand against toss, so going nexus first isn't exactly showing "nerves". Tbh, those games WERE representative of his skill, people just hype him up too much
I think HerO's problem is just that he's too cutesy ingame. I was sure he would go for a fast expansion build vs MC and get rolled. Against a player as aggressive as MC, playing greedily is really bad decision-making.
On December 12 2011 10:45 Micket wrote: For what reasons is Hero being given title of 'best Protoss player in the world'? He can't get past 2nd round of Code A, has an awful win rate in Korea, and stomps foreigners. He is incredibly creative and smart, but trashing around foreigners will always make you look good.
Where is the oZ hype? Brown? Parting? Heck, MC deserves more hype, guy is goooood.
Yup, if Hero were still in oGs he would still be a middle of pack protoss. He deserves credit though for being able to consistently beat weaker players than him, I don't think his problem is being 'nervous' from that perspective.. it's more like in Korea there aren't too many pro players weaker than him.
Yes, he was considered a top prospect while being on oGs by people who paid attention to the scene.
You don't think his problem is nerves, yet today he played a self-destructive game in each set, and playing like that would have been beaten by most mid-tier foreigners as well?
- Slamming his army into Roaches chasing a Queen that he has no chance of killing, then giving up. - Cannoning DRG's natural in the midgame, then giving up. - Losing a Warp Prism to one single Queen. - Going Nexus first in PvP without being aware of the map features or blocking / chasing down the Probe in his base. - Going Nexus first in PvT without even fully scouting mvp's base (and his Probe was basically free to look anywhere for a full minute).
Anyone with a modicum of common sense would realize that the games he played today were OBVIOUSLY not representative of his skill level and that none of those mistakes and decisions are actually normal when his mind is in the right place. But then again, there isn't much of common sense on TL these days.
He's only been exposed to playing games on the big stage for the last 2 or 3 months, it's not his skill (or lack thereof) that is holding him back. He has confidence issues, nerve issues, and at a stretch his decision making isn't the best, but these things come naturally from maturity and experience.
Errr. A lot of the points you bring up are exaggerated and wrong. Cannoning the natural of DRG was not mid game at all. He didn't give up, he misplaced his second cannon slightly so that lings had a slightly larger surface area. He lost his warp prism to 2 queens, not 1. It's kinda impossible to lose a warp prism to 1 queen unless you're hellen keller. He went nexus first pvp BECAUSE HE WAS AWARE OF THE MAP FEATURES. I mean come on, really? He could have done a better job with the probe, he pulled probes as if to surround it and then pulled them back. So that ended up costing him the game I guess. And then in the PvT he did scout mvp's base, then he left it. Then he tried to go back in but there were marines there. You can't blame that on hero. He picked a greedy build and lost a build order game. Woo.
And he's been playing gsl games for a lot longer than 2 months. He gets far in the code a qualifiers almost every season, and yes, he hasn't done very well in them, but hey, that's super duper stressful.
I'm no protoss player, but I do support Hero because he's so creative and fun to watch. I think his lack of success in this tournament is mostly because he played what? 4 tournaments in the last month? He's been flying everywhere and hasn't had the time to practice as he wants, and he's probably incredibly tired and jet lagged.
On December 13 2011 01:27 FuFighter wrote: Why do people seem to think that articles posted on TL have to be unbiased?
Anyways: MC fightiiiiiing!
They don't HAVE to be. But especially when they turn out completely wrong of course you are gonna get criticized for them .
People should criticize them for being wrong then, not for being biased. ;-) I think the article was fine and well written. Maybe it was biased but it wasn't like "Hero is gonna win because he is a liquid player". Most of the time he was given a slight edge so I think it's fine. It's definitely more fun than picking MVP
well in the end he was giving him a slight edge because he is liquid. so i dont get ur point really ;(
My point is that Hero, at least in my opinion, can beat those players if he has a slight edge (eg. no nerve issues or something like that) whilst players of the TL roster that have been struggeling lately would probably not win against those players even if they had a slight edge (eg MVP having nerve issuses). Therefore predicting that HerO will win might be biased but it's a bias I personally don't mind.
If on the other hand I was picked up by TL today and they predicted me to win anything against any progamer I would mind since it was completly biased and like saying "he will win JUST BECAUSE he is on TL".
In my opinion the TL articles don't have to be completly unbiased and as long as it's reasonable like giving a player HerO an edge... at least that's what I was trying to say.
Somehow, I am a bit content seeing that cocky prediction of him going 3,5 to 0,5 (the one against MC being a coinflip). Somehow, I am a bit sad that he was eliminated. It would've been a great moment for him to shine... :-(
TL has always been biased in its writing, but at least it hasn't been so apparent. With the recent MLG article and now this write up, the quality and just any pretense of rational analysis has gone out the window. How do you pick these writers? You guys are like the Fox news of esports.
Please take a deep breath, look inward, and try, just try to find a bit of common sense next time. And think to yourself before you post, " is this a bit too extreme, am I currently of a sound mind? "
On December 13 2011 12:48 Flare23 wrote: TL has always been biased in its writing, but at least it hasn't been so apparent. With the recent MLG article and now this write up, the quality and just any pretense of rational analysis has gone out the window. How do you pick these writers? You guys are like the Fox news of esports.
Please take a deep breath, look inward, and try, just try to find a bit of common sense next time. And think to yourself before you post, " is this a bit too extreme, am I currently of a sound mind? "
I rarely quote someone like this but honestly I think this about covers it. I read a final edit jammed into the middle of a preview for mlg where someone had a bone to pick with EG. Im reading and have read just sheer silliness about liquid players and continue to read it. Look man I support liquid players, Ive supported them with actual expenditures. But dont make up a new article and "horse" shit around with your bias pretending your some sort of journalist.
Do you really use this for your resume? I hope not.
On December 13 2011 12:48 Flare23 wrote: TL has always been biased in its writing, but at least it hasn't been so apparent. With the recent MLG article and now this write up, the quality and just any pretense of rational analysis has gone out the window. How do you pick these writers? You guys are like the Fox news of esports.
Please take a deep breath, look inward, and try, just try to find a bit of common sense next time. And think to yourself before you post, " is this a bit too extreme, am I currently of a sound mind? "
Well I think after this pitiful performance it will be toned down at least.
On December 13 2011 12:48 Flare23 wrote: TL has always been biased in its writing, but at least it hasn't been so apparent. With the recent MLG article and now this write up, the quality and just any pretense of rational analysis has gone out the window. How do you pick these writers? You guys are like the Fox news of esports.
Even if some parts of the article are arguable, I think "Fox news" is an insult in this context.
Reading this annoyed me, both for it's odd tone and sloppy writing like the following.
"Though he's only half rehabilitated, you can't count MC out. Flip 'inconsistent' on its head, and you can call a player 'streaky.' I'm not saying it's definitely going to happen, but there's a definitely a strong five day run in MC if he puts it all together."
I personally really want HerO to win against MVP. Besides that, I'm only really interested in watching DongRaeGu vs MVP, even though I'm confident that MVP is going to win it.
EPT
IMMvp
Liquid`HerO
MVPDongRaeGu
. Don't worry... Bo1s are nearly impossible to predict because of this cheese fest making it very coin flippy. 
