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United Kingdom1732 Posts
On November 17 2011 20:17 kinglemon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 12:02 cLutZ wrote:
I really have to question anyone who thinks it is wise to practice 8+ hours a day. Most scientific studies show terrible diminishing returns after 4 hours of intense practice in any field. why are all bw gosus players that train 8+ a day ? ur statement seems stupid. there are a lot of fields where the best of the best train more than 4 hours. maybe u just meant more then 4 hours straight without pausing.
Yeah, it's 4 hours without pausing. I take breaks from guitar practice every 30 minutes, for a couple of minutes only. This means i can practice at least 7 hours each day, and effectively.
There is always a law of diminishing returns when it comes to excellence. The higher you go, the harder it is to improve even slightly. This kind of article which pops up now and then seems more like propaganda than anything else, in a "Believe in what we are selling!" kind of way. It's absolutely hilarious to me that at the start of SC2 people were thinking "foreigners now have an even footing, in BW we were just late to the party, not our fault". I said it was rubbish, and that Koreans would overtake soon enough. Now people are trying to make businesses out of the idea, even while it fades away as quickly as it was imagined- all that's left is to try and sustain it on the occasional glimmer of hope.
And no article is going to make it otherwise. Though having said that, people seem to love being told what to think/given excuses/false hope/weird theories that less=more. Probably because many can apply it to their own lives and take belief that they don't have to work that hard (ie slogging for hours on end to achieve something truly remarkable), because here, someone is telling you that other people can do it because they're just smarter than all those who work harder than them.
No wonder good writers are sought after. It's them making the money, generating the hits for TL. It's certainly not the game, or the players...
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On November 17 2011 12:02 cLutZ wrote:
I really have to question anyone who thinks it is wise to practice 8+ hours a day. Most scientific studies show terrible diminishing returns after 4 hours of intense practice in any field.
Diminishing returns does not mean no returns. Even if they only get 1/4 of the return for the extra 4 hours, that'd still work out to 20% better than 4 hours.
IE, more is better.
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On November 16 2011 10:37 BrosephBrostar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 01:34 n0btozz wrote:
So then Stephano is some kind of savant who learns twice as much from every game compared to other pros? Or does Huk have a learning disability that makes it so that he has to work twice as hard to improve to the same degree? There's no such thing as "natural ability" when it comes to learned skills.
Natural ability certainly exists. You should read up on it, for example twins given the same training, they don´t get to the same skill level. Some people are just born for sports, they have the body, the mindset and everything to become good, becoming as good and/or even better then some other people who do nothing but practice. But eventually, if one practices 10 hours and the other 2 hours, the one who practices 10 hours will catch up and surpass the naturally talented one. The twins example just shows that natural ability doesn't exist. If there's no genetic advantage the only difference is dedication to improving.
So if my dedication is big enough i could be as good as Flash in BW, as good as Messi in soccer, as good as Michael Jordan in basketball ??? Are you really believing in what you said?
In every sports there are thousands of dedicated people who won't be ever able to keep up with the mentioned players. And that is caused by natural talent.
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On November 17 2011 21:18 MapleLeafSirup wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 10:37 BrosephBrostar wrote:On November 16 2011 01:34 n0btozz wrote:
So then Stephano is some kind of savant who learns twice as much from every game compared to other pros? Or does Huk have a learning disability that makes it so that he has to work twice as hard to improve to the same degree? There's no such thing as "natural ability" when it comes to learned skills.
Natural ability certainly exists. You should read up on it, for example twins given the same training, they don´t get to the same skill level. Some people are just born for sports, they have the body, the mindset and everything to become good, becoming as good and/or even better then some other people who do nothing but practice. But eventually, if one practices 10 hours and the other 2 hours, the one who practices 10 hours will catch up and surpass the naturally talented one. The twins example just shows that natural ability doesn't exist. If there's no genetic advantage the only difference is dedication to improving. So if my dedication is big enough i could be as good as Flash in BW, as good as Messi in soccer, as good as Michael Jordan in basketball ??? Are you really believing in what you said? In every sports there are thousands of dedicated people who won't be ever able to keep up with the mentioned players. And that is caused by natural talent.
The thing is that your dedication isn't enough. I remember hearing that Flash's teammates had to take his keyboard away at one point because he practiced so much his hands were bleeding. Can you honestly see yourself doing that? I'm willing to bet the answer for you and all of the rest of us that aren't champions is "no."
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On November 17 2011 21:15 Dogsi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 12:02 cLutZ wrote:
I really have to question anyone who thinks it is wise to practice 8+ hours a day. Most scientific studies show terrible diminishing returns after 4 hours of intense practice in any field. Diminishing returns does not mean no returns. Even if they only get 1/4 of the return for the extra 4 hours, that'd still work out to 20% better than 4 hours. IE, more is better.
The 4 hours per day rule has become pretty widely accepted. In many medical programs, the traditionally long hours that Doctors face coming out of Med school are being replaced with new programs. For example read this:
http://www.cmaj.ca/content/180/12/1272.full.pdf
Another number appears in studies across disciplines: 5 hours. From virtuoso musicians to elite athletes, top performers spend 4 to 6 hours daily in intensely focused, deliberate practice. Above this level, concentration and
performance levels drop off and diminishing returns are received from time invested, a phenomenon known as “effort
constraint.”
I mean, sure some people could practice more, but I really think the problem is not time invested, but time wasted. How many times a day does a pro do his standard opening? Does a pro ever screw up his 9-Pylon? As much as "playing games" is useful, its probably not a really good use of time. Dwight Howard doesn't play entire games to work on his free throws, why should a Toss play an entire game to work on his storm placement in a fluid game?
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I think giving Stephano boobies isnt very nice.
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For those who do understand the picture, it's a photoshop of a famous French painting, the name escapes me, but it has to do with a French woman who represents freedom and hope leading men to victory in a revolution. Because of Stephano being French, he put his face in place of the womans, and put the faces of other western players as the revolutionary men, and the Koreans as the dead bodies, which were Europeans in the original.
So, instead of a French woman leading the French to freedom, it's Stephano leading the foreigners to victory over Koreans.
I'm taking an art class atm so this is all fresh for me 
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Awesome read, really not much more I can say or add to this. We can only hope that SC2 forms into the balanced game BW was and hope that it stays on top of the E-Sports scene.
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Great article.
As for Stephano's training method, I wouldn't doubt that some people can just get away with that method. Notable progamers who have been known to practice very infrequently includes himself, Fruitdealer and a not so motivated Savior during his prime (he admitted that he does not practice much). There are certain characteristics and strengths that allow a player to get by with minimal practice.
Its too early to say foreigners can compete against the tip top Koreans just yet. I'm not entirely convinced. Its too early to say, we'll have to wait until more matches are played to get better samples.
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i'm sure this has been said, but the october revolution was in Russia, the revolution that this pic is from i believe is the July revolution in france, the October one has a lot of photos too, but that was in Russia, and technically it was in february O.o, all that crazy modern history aside, i like this post, i've really wanted to say this, but i'm not very pro at TL posts and highschool junior year is killing me lol. I also would get flamed because i don't have the background, but this is what i've seen. I think stephano could be elaborated on more considering that his hardcore training isn't crazy like that of Boxer's, but its very, very focused with the same build on his stream what seems like constantly. He's like a vortex and just warps you into his play.
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It's a nicely written article, but I have to agree with some of the negative statements. It's a little presumptuous to make general statements after the results of just one month. Idra, Huk and Stephano are all great players, and what was interesting was how the article demonstrated that different players have different ways of getting as good as they are. Does this dispel the idea that there is not one model that is more effective than others (i.e. the Korean model)? No, because the sample size i.e. the time over which the sudden bout of decent foreigner (and please when are we going to stop using that term and refer to each other by the servers we play on?) results has been too small to come to any meaningful conclusions. That's not to say that this isn't the beginning of a trend, but it's a poor methodological practice to state that there is a trend on the basis of what may only look like the beginning of one. The past somewhat speaks for itself. Koreans have almost always beaten other Asian, NA and European players whenever they have gone head to head. To provide an analogy, water almost always boils at 100C. If one day it boiled at 99C, you would not jump the gun and state that this is how it will always be in the future, more likely to see it as an anomaly until it occurs more regularly. Give it a couple of more months and a couple of more tournaments and we'll start to see a better picture.
Before I get e-lynched; I really do hope that this is a sign that things are evening out in terms of skill across servers and that there are equally as effective alternative training models to the Korean one, but it's only a hope, and hope is not a strategy.
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November Revoution: The sudden rise of protoss in Code S
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very well written article! great job as always tree.hugger!
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We need more articles like this on TL, they are great, analytical and informative. Also, I love the pictures, particularly the first one. Great!
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Great photoshop idea! 
Jesus..that is not "nudity"..Be more afraid of the machine-gun in your neighbours house..Only in america ;-)
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
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remember when people said that NaNiWa hadn't beaten any good Koreans yet? I giggling like a school girl at his epic defeat of Mvp and NesTea right now. Giggle giggle giggle
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ALb6n.png)
