At the very least, we can say Blizzcon was memorable.
The multiplayer units for Heart of the Swarm were finally revealed to mixed reception, but they created much excitement among jaded users who were becoming disgruntled with where the game was going. Dustin Browder and David Kim provided some reassurance to the fans, by showing that Blizzard is indeed listening to their complaints and taking balance very seriously.
However, the disconnect between Blizzard and the e-Sports community was on display as well, most notably through the Blizzcon Invitational Tournament, which was a good example of a tournament that had learned nearly nothing from one year of progress in e-Sports. Additionally, the confirmed lack of LAN support in the future came as an expected, but no less hurtful revelation to all.
Blizzard's best move for fans of e-Sports was allowing the GSL to come to Blizzcon and provide a truly amazing event for the thousands of people who had gathered to see their first live GSL event. More so than the players, casters, or games, it was the amazing energy of the audience that stole the show, and made it a historic event for e-Sports.
Blizzcon Finals: MVP vs Nestea
by: WaxAngel
After a largely predictable tournament where Nestea and MVP chewed up the opposition, the two players from Incredible Miracle met in the grand finals. Nestea had defeated MVP 2-0 in the winner's bracket final, forcing the Terran master down to the Loser's bracket where he swiftly 2-0'd GamaniaSen to reach the grand finals. MVP quickly regained lost ground, taking the first best of three series 2-0 and evening the terms. The two teammates traded the first two games in the next best of three series, bringing everything down to one final game...
Grand Finals, Game Three – Shakuras Plateau
The two players spawned across from each other on Shakuras Plateau, MVP at 10:00 and Nestea at 2:00. The first twenty odd minutes of the game were spent doing pretty much nothing, as MVP decided to go for the standard "turtle the hell up" triple orbital build. Now, Zerg has almost zero options to attack into a defensive Terran off lair tech – Even Justin Browder admitted as much at the panel on the preceding day. So Nestea simply did some largely ineffectual mutalisk harass and expanded freely, while keeping up a large enough force to stop MVP in case he forgot his identity as the world's most boring safest player and decided to attack before 200/200.
The situation, twenty minutes in.
MVP looked pretty thoroughly entrenched, but Nestea had a go at him nonetheless once he reached Hive tech. He was starting to bank considerable amounts of money, with a powerful economy making any option seem feasible. His first choice was Greater Spire tech, attacking MVP's top-left-center expansion with Brood Lords supported by Mutalisks.
Aerial assault.
Though MVP had predicted this move, he wasn't quite ready at the time of the attack. His Viking numbers weren't up to snuff, and he was forced to temporarily lift off his Orbital Command. Following this success, Nestea attempted to continue into MVP's with his air units.
However, by this time, MVP had finished his preparations...
Counter ALL THE THINGS.
Alongside some Vikings and Marines, MVP had nine Ghosts awaiting in his main. And as we all know, Ghosts counter pretty much everything Zerg, especially slow, gas-heavy, low HP, end-game biological units.
Oh, you didn't know before Saturday? Then allow me this tangent.
Snipe
Energy Cost: 25 Range: 10 Effect: The ghost snipes a single, biological target for 45 damage. This ability can be queued for multiple instant snipes.
If you think about it, Snipe really is a bit overpowered. Basically, it converts a mostly free resource (energy) into damage, and it does it instantly. Sure, Psi Storm and Fungal Growth have better damage per mana potential, but they deal their damage over time, and can be dodged as well. With snipe, the DPS is only limited by how fast you can shift queue up new targets.
I'm sure Blizzard thought it would be a pretty nifty ability for getting rid of low-hp, high value targets such as High Templar, and they're right about that much. It's just that they didn't give enough thought to large scale scenarios where dozens of Ghosts would be dumping thousands of mana within seconds to instantly erase Ultralisks and Broodlords from the field.
The first widely publicized demonstration of mass Ghosts as practical strategy and not pure theorycraft happened during MVP's second game against July at the Code S August Semi-Finals (sorry, the VOD is paywalled ). Before I go into that game in detail, let's go through the next few important moments in Nestea vs MVP.
With Vikings and Ghosts preventing any aerial bombardment from Brood Lords, Nestea was forced to go for another option. This time, he decided he would try a fifty Baneling Nydus attack into MVP's newly mining 8:00 base. Unfortunately for Nestea, his Nydus placement was lacked guile. He maneuvered a flock of Mutalisks into the 8:00 base to gain sight for the Nydus worm, but mistakenly flew his Mutalisks in further to harass the base as well. This caused MVP to pull some of his marines to 5:00 in defense, where they quite accidentally discovered and destroyed the morphing Nydus Canal.
Loading fifty banelings one by one takes quite a while.
Having another route of attack thwarted, Nestea moved onto his third plan: Baneling and Ultralisk drops. Unfortunately, this attack also suffered from a lack of crisp execution. Though Nestea safely entered MVP's main, he had only Ultralisks and Banelings. He was forced to choose between blowing up buildings with his banelings, or waiting for MVP to come defend his main so he could drop them on his head. He chose the latter option, which ended up being a poor one indeed. Baneling bombs are essentially an airborne melee attack, which does not fair well against hypermobile Marines or range ten sniper Ghosts.
Owch.
***
From these three failed attacks, we can discern a pattern. Nestea wanted NOTHING to do with MVP's defensive line in the middle.
In consideration of those with heart problems and pregnant women, I took this screenshot before it got REALLY scary.
"But he had 15,000 minerals banked! Couldn't he have just swarmed the middle?" Yes, he could have tried.
Ballin'!
The thing is, Nestea knew better. As a player who had played a hundreds of games against high level Terrans on Shakuras Plateau, and certainly dozens against MVP himself, Nestea would have known precisely what kind of position he was in, with all of its advantages and disadvantages. The fact that he did not in fact, try an all-out ground attack showed that he knew it would have been the wrong decision. And that brings us back to that other game.
At the time of MVP vs July, people were complaining about Zerg being too powerful in the end-game. If Zerg could only get a strong enough economy to produce only high value units such as Brood Lords, Infestors, and Ultralisks, there was no way Terran could compete.
Game two of the semi-finals was a furious macro game on Metalopolis. July combined his reckless aggression with a powerful economy as well, keeping MVP at bay with attacks while he quickly expanded to every spot on his side of the map.
Despite his furious attacks, July found his opponent not just holding his ground every time, but slowly pushing out and taking each base, one by one on his side of the map. Having reached the limitations of Mutas and Doublelings, he went up to Hive tech to add Ultralisks and Broodlords to his attack...
Suck it, Ultras!
Suck it, Brood Lords!
Er, suck it again, Ultras!
July may as well have stuck to the Lair unit combination he excells at. Whatever he tried, he found his expensive Hive units getting quickly erased by MVP's mass ghosts. Wave after wave was sent, yet nothing yielded results. In many cases MVP showed an utter disregard for Ultralisks, just walking his ghosts straight up to the behemoths and sniping them down.
Inevitably, after repeated losing engagements, JulyZerg ran out of steam and was forced to GG out. And with that, the Terran vs Hive situation was resolved (Well, it's more complicated than that. Making a mass Ghost transition isn't the easiest thing in the world, especially if you've taken damage and are heading into the late-game stage on unequal terms. However, the important point is that if Terran can play well enough and get to the mass Ghost late game phase on roughly even ground, they can be practically impenetrable on maps that allow half/half splitting).
It's entirely possible that Nestea would have managed an all-out late game attack better than JulyZerg. In fact, it's also entirely possible that he could have won. The point is, that Nestea knew all these things, and chose not to go for a full frontal attack because his chances of success were astronomically low against a turtling Terran on Shakuras Plateau.
It's disappointing that the alternatives Nestea came up with were so poorly executed and rather uninspired given the high standards we have for him. But if the supposedly smartest player in the world is semi-giving up on a situation, then I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and agree: Ghost-turtling is just too strong on certain maps.
***
It's not like MVP was just sitting back all this time, teaching himself the banjo while he staved off the occasional Zerg attack in between. Though his main defensive tank line was going to maintain stationary at all costs, MVP had more than enough money to finance constant guerrilla attacks on Nestea.
Financing small guerrilla armies in the far corners of the world. CIA Terran?
Though it started off as minor nuisances, MVP's drops actually started to do real damage. While Nestea had a considerable amount of money banked, he was limited in how fast he could spend it by his hatcheries and queens. Nestea made a critical mistake in not making many macro hatcheries (perhaps because he never planned to do the attack-instant remax strategy), and MVP actually hurt his production capacities heavily in that regard.
Also, even the biggest surpluses run dry if expenditures stay higher than income. Even though Nestea was bathing in minerals for a while, MVP made sure to put the hurt on his future income by taking out his mining bases.
As an added bonus, MVP even managed to fit in several nukes against Nestea, who was looking obviously flustered from his own failed attacks, and MVP's constant drop harassment.
The funny thing is, the earlier nukes weren't actually super damaging at the time. Arguably, Nestea could have afforded to have sacrificed twenty to thirty of his drones for a bigger army.
***
By the time of Nestea's failed drop, MVP's harassment had actually begun to take a toll. Nestea's still had over 10k minerals, but he had very little additional income while his infrastructure had been effectively reduced to a three base level. On the other hand, MVP had taken all six bases on his side of the map in a safe and steady manner, repelling all of Nestea's attacks in the process. When Nestea had controlled seven bases, it had looked like time was still on his side in spite of impenetrable nature of the Terran position. Now, there was a sense of urgency to return parity to the game.
Surprisingly – and this is the only move I really fault Nestea for – he didn't decide to gather himself, retake the central, top and bottom bases, and rebuild his infrastructure so he could play a late-game war of attrition (I mean, for even longer than they already had at this point).
Instead, he decided to gather all of his strength for what looked very much like a desperation attack – Twenty seven Brood Lords supported by a motley of Zerg troops. It was inexplicable and poor for reasons that should be self-evident. Nestea had a smaller Brood Lord attack easily thwarted by Ghosts earlier, so was he just hoping that MVP forgot to make enough ghosts? Perhaps it was because in Nestea's mind, every permutation of the scenario he had worked out ended in inevitable defeat, and it was just one last gesture to finalize the result.
In any case, Nestea's last ditch attack (funny to say that bout a guy who still had 6k in the bank) went exactly as expected. Ghosts EMP'd the infestors, sniped the Brood Lords, while siege tanks and Planetary Fortresses pummeled the few ground troops that tagged along.
Sad Brood Lords
Out of an army, income, or the infrastructure to rebuild either, Nestea GG'd out, surrendering the Blizzcon Invitational Championship to MVP.
And that was that.
...okay, I'll bite. Kind of.
Let's pretend that MVP and Nestea did indeed decide to split the 1st and 2nd place prize money equally, as many people have speculated. Well, why does that matter then?
On one hand, you can't say that prize splitting will definitely reduce match quality (whatever that term even means). The only thing we can be certain of is that it DOES affect the players and the match, but the effect could be of any kind.
A player could just as easily play better because he is feeling less pressure and is not suffering from jitters, as it could be the case that he plays more sloppily because there is less on the line. Who knows? Different players, different strokes.
No matter how tournament organizers try to hype it to the fans, grand finals are NOT an indication of who is a better overall player. They only tell you who is a better player under very specific and volatile circumstances, among which prize money plays a definite, but not overly consequential part. Let's put it this way. When MVP was playing MMA for $2,000 more at the grand finals of MLG Anaheim, do you really think it was those two thousand greenbacks that put MVP over the top and inspired him to victory?
That's not to say the $25,000 that was on line for MVP and Nestea at Blizzcon was insignificant. We just need to understand that it's not just the allure of money (or lack thereof) that's the driving force behind people's play.
On the other hand, prize splitting does create a discrepancy between what is advertised by the organizers and expected by the fans, and what is actually delivered by the tournament. At a fundamental level, I don't know if Blizzcon (or any other tournament organizer for that matter) is guaranteeing that "two players will play in the finals with $50,000 on the line." Maybe they're merely guaranteeing that a first place prize for $50,000 will exist, and any other complications are out of their hands.
It's disingenuous, though it's debatable as to what degree. For example, when GomTV very strongly sold the idea of players fighting it out for a $100,000 first place prize purse in order to get viewers, then I would consider it quite a serious breach of trust if they didn't take measures to prevent and punish any prize splitting (and there lies another folly of top-loading and promoting your first place prize, instead of beefing up and advertising your total prize pool).
Even knowing that prize splitting would play a mostly indeterminable and unpredictable role in how the finals would play out, I would still feel cheated if it happened because I wouldn't be getting exactly what I paid for.
Of course, all of this talk is pretty much pointless. Prize splitting is not just inevitable, but it's also pretty much unprovable unless one of the parties involved straight out admits it. We may talk about the rights and wrongs of this morally complex issue all we like – it's still going to happen.
So, Nestea and MVP, whatever actually went on: Thanks for the games.
Blizzard: Helping ESPORTS by Making Other Tournaments Look Good
by: Heyoka
I want to love you Blizzcon, I really do. I like Starcraft and I enjoy tournaments. I have fun watching MVP wreck lesser players, picking them apart piece by piece. The components are there, I should be able to sit down and enjoy some Starcraft action when players have a $50,000 prize to fight over.
Why do you make it so hard?
Streaming Experience
In an age where MLG has four streams simultaneously showing games, and Dreamhack has eight, why would an organizer of a large event only show a single game? Especially at an event that is already running four streams. Blizzcon, I want be closer to you. I want to know what you're really like.
With only a single stream you might think well at least that means they can pack it with content. Averaging about an hour in between games shut down that theory. You might also hope that showing only a few games means quality over quantity, but given the number of ZvZs chained together this sadly was not the case either.
Do you know how frustrating it is to hear that NaNiwa is playing NesTea, only to find out you're going to be watching Jazbas against TooDming? “Very” doesn't accurately capture the sentiment. It seems clear that at certain point they were attempting to show variety of players over more popular, which is at times fine. We need up and coming stars, we need to see fresh blood here and there. Showing endless Zerg mirrors seems far from the optimal way of accomplishing that however.
The Maps
Abyssal Caverns? Slow down there, now you're going a little fast. We don't know each other well enough yet Blizzard, let's save that one for later.
Close positions? Now we're way over the line. Blizzard, the collective community has worked hard for the last year to figure out the best ways to utilize the maps we have, and you just ignored that progress entirely. Why? Make me understand you.
At least now the versions on the ladder have close positions removed. But why would it take your own invitational to learn this? Maybe this is the kind of conflict that makes us all stronger.
Don't do this to me Blizzcon. Let's be friends. Let's chill out and watch some fun games. Let's get nice interviews with players, and see some nice matches without close spawn Shattered Temple. Let's fall in love next year.
Hi! Welcome to my summaries/analysis of the GSL Finals games. If you have any additional questions about the strategies or my thoughts on any particular game or anything about the series, feel free to post in the thread, and I’ll happily respond. However, I don’t have a ton of background on watching Korean players, so I can’t really identify trends in Korean gameplay or anything like that. But I will be able to answer most general questions on these games. Enjoy :D
Game 1 – Daybreak
Mvp @ 7, MMA @ 1
Summary Mvp opens with a no-gas expand off one Barracks, and MMA opens up with a unique 2-proxy Barracks siege push, using the second Barracks to scout and spot for the tanks. Some nice control allows MMA to take control of Mvp’s natural with two sieged tanks, killing many SCVs and Marines in the process and putting him up ten supply in the early stages of the game. MMA proceeds to use his sieged tanks to push up the ramp and starts a Starport in his main, sensing blood and choosing not to expand. MMA continues to siege the production facilities of Mvp, and eventually moves in for the kill when he is double the supply of Mvp.
Analysis This game was primarily decided by MMA’s clearly prepared build on Daybreak. Mvp would be confident going into this series, and therefore would be quite comfortable in opening up with standard play to get a quick lead. MMA completely predicted his opponent’s opening, and played an opening that would defeat the 1 rax expand regardless of how safe Mvp played (bunkers) or which followup he used (fast tech, extra rax). Mvp’s only chance was to take out the initial force of one tank and Marines before a second tank and siege were finished by using the power of multiple SCVs in small-scale fights, but MMA carefully controlled his units to avoid a surround and pushed in slowly. At that point there was really nothing Mvp could do, even with decently fast siege tech.
MMA’s build was carefully designed and thought out, and the architecture of the map gave MMA a really solid proxy location that wouldn’t be scouted on Mvp’s normal scout path, as well as making it likely Mvp would fast expand. This game was extremely important in giving MMA some momentum – taking even single game off of Mvp is extremely difficult, and Mvp is not used to playing catchup. It was an excellently planned strategy for this map, but past that, this game wasn’t too telling of the players’ condition for the match – the importance of this game is definitely the confidence and momentum factor in such a tense series on a big stage.
Game 2 – Dual Sight
Mvp @ 2, MMA @ 8
Summary Both players open with some standard builds, Mvp again with the 1 rax no-gas expand and MMA with the Reaper expand. MMA does play it a bit uniquely with a three-Reaper followup, quickly going up to three Barracks and upgrading combat shields. Mvp transitions into double-gas mech play with blue flame Hellions and a Starport. MMA chooses to take an extremely fast third at the top left gold base while Mvp adds blue flame Hellions and cloaked Banshees.
Mvp spots the gold base with blue flame Hellions, and begins to harass the main and natural with the first Banshee and sends the second over to the gold. Mvp’s Banshee falls at the gold, but blue flame Hellions police the area and prevent MMA from mining too much there. Mvp continues to build up mech while MMA chooses to stay on bio, and armies engage in the middle of the map with players trading Marines and Hellions, in MMA’s favor. MMA now has a solid advantage, having established the gold base with an even SCV count to Mvp.
MMA continues to upgrade and begins dropping, and Mvp attempts to establish his third base. MMA begins to produce tanks while establishing his fourth base at his gold and trying to pressure the PF third of Mvp. MMA sends his first tanks to pressure the third while countering the main with a drop. Mvp chooses to deny the gold base on MMA's side with his main army instead of retreating, and is able to force a lift on the gold while defending his main and natural. Mvp seems to be in good shape with a 20 supply advantage and large tank count, but he gets caught unsieged and loses more than half his tanks. He retains his supply advantage, but now has a much lower tank count. MMA manages to establish the 9 o'clock base as well as the bottom right gold base, giving himself a decisive economy advantage while both players rebuild their armies.
Mvp attempts to push the gold, but a counter at his third forces him to pull his entire army all the way across the map. MMA then drops Mvp’s main with three Medivacs full of units, keeping Mvp back even longer. He then attacks the third and kills a large number of tanks, leaving Mvp extremely far back in map control, economy, and army. MMA continues to poke at the edges of Mvp’s bases, and Mvp pulls a lot of SCVs to accompany his meager 10 tank count and push across the map. Both players push into the naturals of their opponents, but MMA has a larger army and more of the map, so he is unable to take down MMA before losing all of his production and bases and is forced to GG as MMA whittles down Mvp’s forces while continuing to destroy his bases.
Analysis Mvp seemed to have a stable mindset going into this game, trusting his standard play versus MMA even after the fiasco of game 1. It is important for a player to maintain faith in their skills and preparation even if they are nervous or worried during the match, as on-the-spot decisions very often are clouded in judgment. However, Mvp again played into the hands of MMA, who was completely prepared for every one of Mvp’s tactics and kept himself in the lead. The early-midgame looked solid for MMA, with him managing to hold on to the gold base, but a mech player grows more dangerous every second his army is allowed to mass without the bio player doing some kind of damage. Things looked a bit dangerous for MMA as Mvp grew his tank count and established a third, but MMA kept his cool and just waited for Mvp to make one mistake. The one mistake cost Mvp the game, as MMA was completely on top of everything all over the map, never leaving Mvp a chance to rethink his plan, staying one step ahead in tactics and strategy.
With game two, MMA had proven he could defeat Mvp’s standard play both with a unique prepared build and a calm, calculating style. Had Mvp been more careful with his one big tank push, the game may have turned out differently, but MMA certainly played his part in delaying and harassing Mvp into making mistakes. Mvp was in a very dangerous place going into game 3, as MMA had outclassed him in both games in a unique fashion.
Game 3 – Tal’darim Altar
Mvp @ 2, MMA @ 5
Summary MMA opens with a command center first, while Mvp opens with something similar to MMA’s game 1 build, making two Barracks (one with reactor) and tanks with siege out of one Factory. MMA goes up to four Barracks with combat shields right away after his command center, scouting Mvp’s early tank and lack of an expansion. Mvp moves out, pulling five SCVs, while MMA creates bunkers to buy time to build up Marines. Mvp pushes into the natural with two tanks, forcing a lift as MMA waits for combat shields to finish. MMA blunders a bit and lets the command center fall, pulls many SCVs but fails to break the contain of Mvp, and is forced to tap out of a quick third game.
Analysis Mvp used a nearly identical strategy to MMA’s game one strategy, and it worked out in almost the same fashion. Also like the first game, there was very little MMA could do, even though he had slightly less of a build order disadvantage than Mvp did in game 1. This build is specifically designed as a counter to the popular fast expand builds, and it seems like both players were well aware of that and picked good games to use this potent build in. Other than that there honestly isn’t much to say; the game doesn’t say too much about the condition or mindset of the players.
Game four would likely be the most important game in the series. Mvp got a win similar to MMA’s game 1 win, and now it was up to him to match the standard game win of MMA. Mvp still might have been feeling a bit uncomfortable even with this win, as MMA seemed confident in his abilities and his builds after the initial two games. Mvp really needed to take a solid win in game four in order to bring momentum back to his side in the macro game, and if he could do that, his experience and solid mechanics could definitely pull him through.
Game 4 – Xel’Naga Fortress
Mvp @ 3, MMA @ 7
Summary MMA opens with a 1 rax Command Center into a fast three Barracks before adding gas, and Mvp opens with cloak Banshee. MMA gets an early lead, destroying the two supply depots at Mvp’s wall while warding off two Banshees with fairly minimal losses, getting a 15 supply advantage. Mvp expands, beginning tank production and adding factories for mech play. MMA attempts to drop a bit but is denied, and both players stabilize and head into the midgame, with MMA starting up a third base.
MMA begins tank production and establishes a light contain, preventing Mvp from putting down a third base. Mvp gets some SCV kills at the third with Hellions, but MMA meanwhile takes out a Factory and a pair of tech labs with a drop in the main supported by tanks from the low ground. Mvp seems to have the more optimal composition with Hellion/tank/Viking/Banshee, but MMA has complete map control and is beginning his fourth base before the third of Mvp is even complete.
Mvp finally takes his third, but it is immediately spotted by MMA, who promptly harasses the main from low ground while delaying the third. Mvp attempts to bust the contain with SCVs and tanks, trading a lot of SCVs and a few tanks for a lot of MMA’s tank/bio. However, MMA’s reinforcements are enough to hold Mvp from pushing farther out on the map. Mvp slowly uses his tank count to push forward and attempting to land his orbital at his central expansion, while eventually beginning to push MMA’s central expand as well. MMA counters the third of Mvp, taking out a few tanks, but is warded off. Mvp then sweeps around the back for a push into MMA’s natural, using cloaked Banshees to cover his tanks to great effect. However, Mvp leaves his center base completely undefended during this attack, and it goes down to a counter-attack as both players push into the each other’s naturals.
MMA resumes mining at his fourth while a base race ensues, with Mvp having the stronger but less mobile army. Hellions clean up some SCVs, but Mvp has lost all mining and production and sacrifices vital units to push deeper into MMA's main. Using his single mining base, MMA gets a few Barracks out on the map and continues to produce while delaying Mvp from killing off all of his structures. MMA eventually catches a late siege from Mvp with stimmed bio and cleans up his forces, ending the game.
Analysis This game was surely a big confidence booster for MMA, as he again won a fairly standard game (although the outcome was a bit weird) and swung the series back in his favor. MMA continued to take advantage of Mvp’s positional mistakes, using all sorts of angles and units to pressure Mvp into making mistakes and getting advantages everywhere he could. MMA was never really in grave danger of losing map control even when Mvp pushed out, and he always had the mobility and positioning advantage he needed to take advantage of Mvp’s lacking tank count.
At this point, Mvp was entering dangerous territory. He tried to begin his comeback, but was unable to keep any momentum. His standard game had been shut down twice, so he probably didn’t have too much chance at outplaying MMA three times in a row, even though he would have traditionally been considered the superior overall player.
So going into game five, Mvp’s best chance to take the series was to use an unusual strategy to take game five, hopefully shaking MMA up a bit, and then proceeding to use macro play in games six and seven. However, momentum and mindset were too far on MMA’s side for Mvp to straight up outplay him the rest of the series, so some cleverness would definitely be needed to take him down. Mvp did have the finals experience to not be too badly shaken, but it was clear at this point that MMA was in better shape at that point in the series, and not simply for the number of games that he had won.
When you are defeated multiple times using your best strategies, it really damages your confidence – you feel as if there is nothing you can do to beat this player, no matter how experienced you are. Mvp really needed to find a clever way to take the next game and throw MMA off balance going into the tail end of the series.
Game 5 – Terminus
Mvp @ 12, MMA @ 3
Summary Both players go for a fast expand, with Mvp opting for the greedier Command Center first and MMA putting up a Barracks followed by a Command Center as well. Interestingly, MMA puts up two gas immediately after his command center, but Mvp only takes one gas after his Barracks. However, both players do go for a similar followup, adding tech labs on their Factories and getting Starports.
Mvp chooses to upgrade blue flame and begin producing Hellions, while MMA begins tank production while getting siege mode. MMA moves out with a couple tanks with siege and some Marines to do some pressure, and finds Mvp is completely lacking tanks at that point. MMA pushes far into the natural, forcing a lift on the command center and a retreat of Mvp’s forces. Multiple SCVs die before they can retreat into the main, and MMA secures a 15 supply advantage and a contain on Mvp’s ramp. MMA begins his third base and gets air control with a Viking advantage, but Mvp’s superior tank count with Hellion support eventually allows him to push out to his natural and evens up the supply. Mvp also begins his third base, but MMA leads 60 to 40 in SCV count.
Both players kill a few SCVs/units with drops and Hellion runbys, but MMA is able to use his SCV advantage and bringing himself to a 20 supply lead. Mvp attempts to hide a fourth base on the bottom edge of the map, and MMA drops the third base, delaying mining significantly. MMA finishes his fourth base and attempts to create a 5th and 6th, while dropping also in the main of MVP. MMA then tries to bust the front with marauders, but reinforcements quickly arrive after a few tanks fall.
At about 150 supply, Mvp begins to gather his forces and attempt to push across the map, using Vikings to kill off many medivacs and get positioning. However, Mvp has again failed to prepare defenses for drop counter-attacks, and a large drop kills off a lot of buildings and delays Mvp from moving further on the map. Mvp pulls many SCVs and begins pushing back MMA, but he is taking heavier losses than MMA with less bases up. Drops continue to do minor damage and distract Mvp, who attempts to take his fourth base in the center.
The game gets a bit more interesting as we see multiple ghost academies planted for MMA and a fusion core down for Mvp. Mvp still has not really established a fourth base, and is down 40 supply and lacking map control while running out of money. However, his strong army composition still keeps him in the game, as MMA has no way to engage the well positioned mech army. Mvp uses Battlecruisers to push his way across the map, while MMA prepares nukes at home. More drops in the main continue to damage Mvp, as he still has not placed any turrets and his main orbital falls.
Yet another base trade ensues with Mvp pushing across the map with the superior army, and MMA using drops and map control to delay MMA. Nukes go down to delay Mvp from pushing, but both main bases fall while MMA continues mining with minimal production on the south part of the map. However, MMA manages to put up some Starports and delay Mvp with nukes, eventually taking the Viking advantage. After some massing, he is able to defeat MVP's BC-Viking in a straight air engagement, becoming the first player to defeat Mvp in the GSL Code S finals.
Analysis This game was another byproduct of Mvp’s sloppy play and inability to cover his back. While Mvp tried to use mech every game, the weakness of such a composition has always been its mobility and its need to be in one spot to dominate opposing armies. Even knowing this, Mvp allowed his base to get destroyed repeatedly by drops nonetheless. Simple Viking/turret coverage could have won Mvp this game, but instead his stubbornness to just push across the map haphazardly earned him another base race loss against an opponent who had used his map control to expand multiple times. MMA was very clever with his units delaying Mvp across the map, and it ended up being the most interesting base race of the three, but honestly all three loses were pretty similar for Mvp.
The key point in this game was when Mvp left his base with Tank/Viking/BC and never came back. Prior to that the drops were primarily used to harass and delay Mvp’s advance, but when Mvp left his base with his full army to slow push, it became clear that these drops were more than just a Thorn in his side. They were now an infected wound, seeping over his buildings and eventually sapping enough strength from Mvp for his army to be crushed.
Overall, MMA was just a step ahead all series long. He was prepared to react to every part of Mvp’s play, while Mvp always seemed to struggle to adapt to MMA’s tactics. It was a well deserved win over the best player in StarCraft 2, and MMA can go home satisfied with his performance.
Mvp’s play was certainly disappointing. His builds and mechanics were solid as always, but in many games his decision making was suspect and he seemed a bit lost once he had macroed a large mech army of optimal composition. He constantly was making sub-optimal reactions to MMA’s somewhat unique plays, and he just never seemed to be in control of any of the games.
Wearing his Detroit Tigers baseball cap and clad in his blue Slayers uniform, MMA exited from his booth and was crowned GSL champion after a hard fought five game victory over previously undefeated in finals, three time champion, MVP. With the crowd chanting his name, pure happiness and exhilaration poured from MMA's face, taking in every cheer from the crowd like it was his last match of his career. With the spotlight directly on him, in front of thousands upon thousands of die hard foreigner fans, MMA finally completed his journey to the top of the mountain by placing his lips on the trophy that eluded him four months earlier.
Was it the closest final that we've even seen? No, it ended in a four to one victory for MMA; the only win MVP was able to secure was an all-in in game three. In terms of game quality, did it blow away every single GSL final before it? In all honesty, I thought the first game between TOP and MVP in the last GSL final was better than anything I saw on Friday night in the final.
So, the question is, why is this the best final of all-time? It's simple. The fans. The emotion. The storybook ending. Did it matter that the finals started twenty minutes late due to headphone issues? No, the crowd soaked up every second of the Tasteless documentary they put up on the screen. Did it matter that the first game wasn't an all-time classic with MMA outsmarting MVP with a quick timing attack? Of course not, the pro-MMA crowd jumped out of their seats and went crazy for the underdog.
In short, the final was great not because it was the closest series or the games blew anyone away, but because the pure emotion that was on display at Blizzcon on that night. From the time MMA and MVP walked down the long aisle of fans and they entered, high-fiving everyone like they were pro fighters entering the ring for a heavyweight title fight, to the moment Tastosis asked which fans were rooting for MMA and everyone went insane with applause, you could feel that something special was going to happen.
MMA, even as a Korean who hasn't spoken a word of English to any of the crowds he has entertained in the past five months, is beloved by the American crowd as if he was one of their own. When polled by Tastosis on which side they were taking in the finals, the crowd went ballistic when he said MMA's name.
It might be the connection to Boxer, his entertaining drop play style, or the fact that he destroyed his own Commander Center against Idra and still won, but whatever the reason, MMA has truly taken one step forward in his goal of connecting the Korean and foreign Starcraft communities into one. Even without speaking the native language of the audience or being able to interact with them fully, MMA has made a direct connection with the American crowds that no other Korean has been able to make except for maybe the Emperor himself.
Now, in the preview article, I said that MMA had to do three things to defeat MVP:
1. Polt was head and shoulders above MMA in terms of planning. Polt had the better builds planned out and was able to use his strategies to the best of his ability. MMA didn't have terrible builds or use the same one four straight times (I'm looking at you, Inca), but Polt was three many steps ahead of MMA at every turn in the four games they played
MMA cleared up this point in the first game. He showed that he had builds specifically to play against MVP and used them to perfection. If MMA and MVP played ten straight macro games, at both their peak conditions, do I think MMA would win the majority? No, more than likely, MVP would win seven or eight of the games and show dominance in his play.
MMA didn't let this happen. He came out of the gates with a tricky build to catch MVP by surprise, using a proxy marine-tank push to destroy MVP before he even knew what hit him. MVP, who was confident he would beat MMA before the final, was now down one game and had the entire crowd against him.
This continued onto the second game where MMA showed another specific build he planned. Again, it caught MVP off guard, and MMA capitalized on the advantage and took the second game. In a matter of twenty minutes, MVP went from being on top of the world to being two games away from losing his title.
MMA had perfect builds to tip MVP off balance, and he executed them perfectly. Compared to his builds against Polt, it was like night and day how much MMA prepared more for this match than the Super Tournament final.
2. MMA was worn out. While Polt didn't have GSTL or any foreigner tournaments to prepare for, MMA was flying to Columbus, carrying his team to a team league title, and making his run through the Super Tournament. When it came down to the final moments, Polt was more well rested and had the advantage in having had more time to prepare extensively for MMA.
MMA was physically rested as much as he was mentally rested. MVP, on the other hand, had to play in the Blizzcon Invitational all day and had to play three series, two of them going to a third game. I don't care how good MVP is or how much better he was than his opponents, having to play three series throughout the entire day and then switch your entire mindset to a best-of-seven series is going to be hard for anyone.
In the meanwhile, MMA was able to focus completely on preparing for MVP, watching MVP play his games and preparing for the finals with his team and taking practice and rest as he pleased. In the meanwhile, his opponent was battling to stay alive in the Blizzcon Invitational. This time, MMA was the one who was able to prey on the player who had the hard workload and took advantage of it. I think not going to Orlando was a great decision by him and it really paid off in the long run.
3. Even though MMA had won at Columbus and was able to win a final on a big stage with loads of fans in attendance, he showed lots of nerves. While his opponent played with confidence of a champion and went for attacks that could have spelled death if they didn't go perfect, MMA had shaky control of his units and couldn't keep up with the micro of Polt in key situations.
This might be the biggest point of them all. In the Super Tournament final, MMA did not play like a champion. He played tentatively, let Polt dictate the play, and took almost no chances until the last game when he was already down three games. Polt showed that he believed in his talent and tried moves that could have easily lost him games if he failed. but because he was able to pull them off, he gained a commanding victory over MMA.
MMA did not only show that he had the spirit of a champion, but he also showed everyone that he had the balls of a champion. The first two games showed how much MMA believed in himself and the builds that his team helped him prepare. Both games could have gone horribly wrong and led to MMA being down 0-2 with almost zero chance of coming back, but he went for the kill, didn't let the pressure get to him, and executed his builds to the best of his ability.
At the end of the day, I still believe MVP is the better player overall, but that doesn't matter. On that night, MMA would not be defeated. He planned better. He got into MVP's head and was able to dictate how the games went. MVP, for the first time, wasn't the player in control and had to react to everything his opponent was doing. MMA stood up to the bully and didn't back down like the rest. Before MVP could even start attacking, MMA had already knocked MVP off his feet and onto the canvas.
With this victory, MMA has stricken his name from ever being mentioned next to the Kong Line again and has begun his quest to protect his newly won throne. MVP won't be happy with this defeat and will come back better than ever; Nestea still has his sights on his fourth title and will not rest until it his; MMA's rival, DongRaeGu will be waiting in the wings to tear him down from the mountain; MarineKing, seeing MMA avoid the Kong Line, will do anything he can to get back into another final and put the name of Kong to rest for good; and finally, Polt, the only person to eliminate MMA in the three main GSL tournaments he has entered into, and will be ready to show that he really is in MMA's head.
With these challengers and more converging on MMA in November, remember this, TeamLiquid. The boy in the blue shirt and baseball cap might not look the strongest or scariest, and he might have gotten his Code S spot from MLG, but he is the champion. He has proven not only he is worthy of the championship and the title of Son of Boxer, but that he also has things Boxer has carried throughout his career.
The confidence of a champion.
The pride of a champion.
The heart of a champion.
Art by fishuu
Writers: fionn, Pokebunny, Heyoka, and Waxangel. Graphics and Art: fishuu and SilverskY Editor: WaxAngel
In The Snipe Spell ability Section i think i found an Error. Last Paragraph in the Snipe spell Ability Section*
"The first widely publicized demonstration of mass Ghosts as practical strategy and not pure theorycraft happened during MVP's second game against July at the Code S August Semi-Finals (sorry, the VOD is paywalled ). Before I go into that game in detail, let's go through the next few important moments in .Nestea vs July"
Shouldn't the Bolded Part be Nestea vs MVP
Thanks for the Write-up Guys haven't had the time to read it all but just noticed the slight error; it confused me lol.
Sick writeup. I haven't had time to watch much SC2 lately, but its nice to get an idea of what the scene's thinking through TL's excellent coverage. <3
Interesting read. I guess prize splitting isn't as bad as match fixing, but to say that when the prize pool is smaller, it's less of a deal is sort of dodging the issue...
What a great writeup!! Love this stuff couldn't watch the gsl finals because of the time so great to have a great description so keep up the great work!!
On October 26 2011 13:54 Gnaix wrote: Interesting read. I guess prize splitting isn't as bad as match fixing, but to say that when the prize pool is smaller, it's less of a deal is sort of dodging the issue...
that's not what I'm suggesting, just stating an example to demonstrate that money is just one of the many many factors that affects play :o
God, i'm so glad that I went to Blizzcon. They were amazing matches. I am still disapointed though that Nestea didn't leave a few corruptors so he could take out the vikings.
Yea I agree with the OP Pretty much; hrmm how to break a Terran on Shakuras Plateau with 20 Ghosts and PF's in the middle of the Map Creating a Wall. The Ghosts can just snipe all the Overseers too.
Woah i just realised Zerg won't have any overseers in HOTS . So much For Detection
One thing I don't understand from the prize-splitting allegations - if they did indeed decide to do so, then why did they play such a long game? The likely reason why it was such a strange game is that Nestea has not encountered such a unique situation before and didn't know what to do.
The "prize-splitting accusations" to me seem to stem from the heavy zerg bias TL seems to have. Anyways, MVP has already unveiled another occasion of his heavy-turtle into ghosts transition strategy. As pointed out by Waxangel, it was done to July in GSL Aug, ro4, set2 on Metalopolis. So, it was not remarkable that he pulled it out again on a turtle friendly map such as Shakuras.
It's fascinating how people can accuse without any concrete proof.
It's worth mentioning that MVP also had 14-18 Vikings in the mix when Nestea's desperation Broodlord Attack came.
I don't think you're intentionally misleading anyone into thinking that Ghosts alone took out the Broodlords, but its probably a good idea to include that as well. It only serves as more evidence that Nestea's final attack was more out of desperation and frustration than clear calculation. Sending Broodlords in solo against Ghosts and Vikings is not a good plan even for him.
nice writeup. shift queuing snipe doesn't work exactly as yoou'd think though, as ghosts will walk to locations and regular attack and not actually snipe from what I've been able to test.
Great write-up and analysis (with the comparison to MMA's performances in the Super Tournament). The art at the end made me want to do a portrait of MMA holding the trophy while basked in the stage lights, but I have an assignment to finish in two days (which I'm holding off due to procrastination lolol) so I wouldn't be able to finish it.
The fact that you even mentioned prize splitting as a possibility through the assumption that nestea threw the games is pretty moronic. The prize splitting only came up because people felt Nestea had thrown the game, with no other evidence, and you should at least have addressed why this would not make sense.
Why would Nestea throw the game? Why would 2 of the most competitive players in the world ever not think about winning the game in front of a huge live audience and a huge tournament thus proving who's better? So Nestea threw the game out of pity because MVP lost the GSL tournament? Yeah, I'm sure Nestea felt pretty bad for MVP, I mean, the guy only won the last GSL and is in the finals of the November tournament as well as the finals of blizzcon. It's been a whole month since MVP won a tournament.
On October 26 2011 15:23 Itsmedudeman wrote: The fact that you even mentioned prize splitting as a possibility through the assumption that nestea threw the games is pretty moronic. The prize splitting only came up because people felt Nestea had thrown the game, with no other evidence, and you should at least have addressed why this would not make sense.
Why would Nestea throw the game? Why would 2 of the most competitive players in the world ever not think about winning the game in front of a huge live audience and a huge tournament thus proving who's better? So Nestea threw the game out of pity because MVP lost the GSL tournament? Yeah, I'm sure Nestea felt pretty bad for MVP, I mean, the guy only won the last GSL and is in the finals of the November tournament as well as the finals of blizzcon. It's been a whole month since MVP won a tournament.
Great write up. I actually downloaded GOM.TV player at 12 AM just to watch the GSL finals, and it was worth it!!! M-M-A!!! Believe!!!!! Best GSL, EVER!
I personally felt that Nestea was just discouraged against Mvp, especially on Shakuras Plateau. He's already said in interviews that it's "depressing" playing against Mvp. In other words, he completely lacked confidence after losing his series advantage. The map pool probably made him generally depressed about the tournament as well.
"If you think about it, Snipe really is a bit overpowered. Basically, it converts a mostly free resource (energy) into damage, and it does it instantly. Sure, Psi Storm and Fungal Growth have better damage per mana potential, but they deal their damage over time, and can be dodged as well. With snipe, the DPS is only limited by how fast you can shift queue up new targets."
WTF is this crap? What has TL become, making unfounded QQ statements. Fungals is NOT dodgable, and also STOPS THE UNIT FROM MOVING AT ALL, making all zerg's melee units just wreck everything. Furthermore, those area of effect spells are tremenously easier to pull off, as that many snipes not only requires ridiculous attention and apm (only MVP can even pull that off), but you have to have good mouse precision and speed as well as you are clicking targets, rather than general areas.
Furthermore, the concept that a zerg should be able to 1a victory every game is just saddening. If you lazily 1a your BL with no ground support right into a terrans base after you've given him time to prepare, you better expect something to come up and kill them. With support, the BL plus fungal there is really no way to even touch BL.
Ever notice how this strategy doesn't catch on? That's because you basically have to be a super human to pull it off, and even then Nestea made so many mistakes he basically handed MVP the game. Even with all those huge mistakes, MVP had to act like a god to pull of the narrow victory.
Was the OP not at Blizzcon? You should have been watching the player cam and you would have seen how the game was really going. During the second half the obs missing most everything going on, and most of the time there was no way to even expect to keep track of all the ungodly amazing things mvp was doing, while Nestea was just kinda sitting there.
Its odd how the community decides who to be a fan of. For whatever reason Mvp is never the fan favourite - almost everyone acknowledges him as one of the best, and frequently THE best player of sc2. Maybe in part its because people like to cheer for the underdog, but even so people will cheer for NesTea against unknowns but cheer for unknowns against Mvp.
On October 26 2011 15:41 NATO wrote: "If you think about it, Snipe really is a bit overpowered. Basically, it converts a mostly free resource (energy) into damage, and it does it instantly. Sure, Psi Storm and Fungal Growth have better damage per mana potential, but they deal their damage over time, and can be dodged as well. With snipe, the DPS is only limited by how fast you can shift queue up new targets."
WTF is this crap? What has TL become, making unfounded QQ statements. Fungals is NOT dodgable, and also STOPS THE UNIT FROM MOVING AT ALL, making all zerg's melee units just wreck everything. Furthermore, those area of effect spells are tremenously easier to pull off, as that many snipes not only requires ridiculous attention and apm (only MVP can even pull that off), but you have to have good mouse precision and speed as well as you are clicking targets, rather than general areas.
Furthermore, the concept that a zerg should be able to 1a victory every game is just saddening. If you lazily 1a your BL with no ground support right into a terrans base after you've given him time to prepare, you better expect something to come up and kill them. With support, the BL plus fungal there is really no way to even touch BL.
Ever notice how this strategy doesn't catch on? That's because you basically have to be a super human to pull it off, and even then Nestea made so many mistakes he basically handed MVP the game. Even with all those huge mistakes, MVP had to act like a god to pull of the narrow victory.
On October 26 2011 13:38 GoodRamen wrote: thanks for the write up!!!!! and a slight typo dustin browder not Justin Browder lol
lol
I agree entirely! The difference being that I got banned for 3 days for saying the same thing (Nestea had no way to win that game) while your writeup is a featured article.
One thing that I think it's important to note is the different levels of multitasking required when it comes to sending drops vs. defending them (applies to all races really, but Terran more than the other 2).
You can queue up drops with shift and even make them autodrop while moving whenever you want, but the defender has to react after it happens (or after he sees it) and split his armies on the fly, usually defending with ground units that have to follow map architecture to reach the drop (while the drop just flies over everything). You can use air units, but really only Z or P drops can be cleaned up cost effectively with air. When a T drops 8 marines, he has only invested 100 gas, which doesn't really affect his defense (meaning counter attacks don't become more likely to succeed) since T's defense is generally based around their gas investment (Tanks/Ghosts/Vikings), while their minerals are not capped (except in bio TvP). There is nothing in the air worth 500/100 that can clean up 8 marines and a medivac. Thus you have to use ground units and go around buildings/map/cliffs/minerals.
Defending drops are a multitasking nightmare, and I think we saw it take a huge tole on Nestea in that game. Mvp probably has better multitasking/APM in the first place (since Nestea has a history of being more of a "smart" player, not a "fast" player), and he exacerbated that difference masterfully.
I can't believe so little people didn't noticed Nestea lost the last engagement because his broodlords couldn't attack the cloaked ghosts (he forgot to bring the 5 overseers he made, watch the vod carefully and you'll see)
About the prize splitting, why should nestea split when he beat mvp 2-0 in winners bracket finals and he had to win 1 bo3 out of 2? Seems -EV to me. And even if they did, they are widely considered as the best two players in the world so the rivalry for titles should be more important than money anyways (What I want to say here is that I'm pretty sure they played their best. )
About the Shakura's game, I've read so many comments like "I'm in silver and even I could have won this game if I was playing instead of Nestea, when he had 15k/5k resources", I'm sorry but probably not. IIRC there were like 2 Planetaries in the front of the siege line, and tanks were nicely split, so how are you going to break this as zerg? (It would be very cool if someone could test it with different army compositions and see was it possible to break it with reasonable costs for Nestea's ammount of resources) It would probably be possible by attacking with maxed army for three waves, but then MVP's drops would make you regret the decision (Although Nestea could have planted like 5 spines into every base... but again this would cost like 4k minerals... but again he had 15k.) Weird thing was that for some time Nestea was defending from drops with his whole army, he just sent all his unit to one place, and then there was another drop in the same time in another base which he could not defend (And ofcourse losing 20 banes to kill 8 marines isn't probably the perfect trade).
About the ghosts, I don't think thay are as OP as MVP shows us.(but they are definately not perfectly balanced, Cloak, EMP and Snipe, TvZ you can kill everything, and TvP you have like by far the craziest nuke in the game) Transitioning into ghosts is tricky, but on the maps like Shakura's where you can easily play this turtling terran style you can get almost maxed and then start to replenish your army with ghosts. As zerg you need like crazy ammount of overseers for the dedection because if you have less, they get instantly sniped and your army is removed. Maybe HotS's changes will fix ghost, but they should in my opinion fix it in WoL too. Atleast they are saying that they will continue to patch WoL but that's what they said about BW.
How can people not think this was a great final based on game play. everyone figured MVP would sweep this solid. I myself was cheering for MMA as im a huge SlayerS fan. but to witness games where they traded bases and armies, and knowing it all came down to position and who made that one critical mistake in each game was a joy to watch. because both players made them.
no one closed down a game after taking advantage of a mistake, even game 2 MMA had trouble closing it out after taking many tanks away from MVP. this is one of the best finals i have seen, and this comes from a ZERG. yes i would have loved to see it go a few more games, but to see a convincing 4-1 win over MVP who everyone was expecting to pick up a 100 grand that week, it was unheard of.
i hope MLG will start doing their finals Bo5 or Bo7 because, with finals like this from GSL. they will only fall further behind.
Heyoka's writing is right on the money. Blizzard are doing so many things right but they seem a bit disconnected with the E-sport scene. Close spawn position on Shatt. was removed ages ago in all serious SC2 tournaments. It's like they don't understand that in a lot of cases it's a problem with maps being imbalanced not the actual units.
I also felt cheated of some good games, having bought the virtual ticket and all.
Was amazing to be there Live. That hall was packed with people on the floor along with people in the next hall watching it on big screens.
Cheered for MMA all the way.
Damn camera dolly was on the right side, was in the 2nd section left mid, front row. I see my fuzzy outline. Was seating next to a group of guys all the way from Denmark.
Pros like Ret, MoonGlade, Nestea and others were among the crowd in the seats along with top Blizzard employees (Morhaime, Bowyder all I could see).
On October 26 2011 16:58 RobX wrote: Heyoka's writing is right on the money. Blizzard are doing so many things right but they seem a bit disconnected with the E-sport scene. Close spawn position on Shatt. was removed ages ago in all serious SC2 tournaments. It's like they don't understand that in a lot of cases it's a problem with maps being imbalanced not the actual units.
I also felt cheated of some good games, having bought the virtual ticket and all.
Caught 2 of the Shattered close spawn games while there. /facepalmed
Could tell the loser was not prepared or did not know how to deal with it.
On October 26 2011 13:38 GoodRamen wrote: thanks for the write up!!!!! and a slight typo dustin browder not Justin Browder lol
lol
Confused, can't you edit the post, Wax? It still reads Justin Browder.
Edit: I was actually going to write a blog post about the BlizzCon invitational criticism, and I may still, but I'll respond here briefly.
I think the hour breaks between the games serve the live attendees, who have a plethora of panels, demos, and other activities. DirecTV PPV was only introduced in 2008 and internet streaming of the event in 2009, to allow Blizzard fans who are financially or geographically unable to attend to get a sense of what it's like to attend, but the focus has always been on the live attendees.
Along the lines of that, I don't think Blizzard's main goal is to make a tournament-worthy tournament, if that makes sense. Again, I think the tournament is there to showcase StarCraft II to non-StarCraft players, who they hope to get sucked into the games whether it's NaNiWa vs. MVP or ... those other guys.
Furthermore, BlizzCon only runs once a year. GSL, MLG, and even IPL have been able to improve their tournaments each iteration. Of course, Blizzard can learn from other tournaments, like IPL did to make IPL3 an amazing first-time live event, but again, I don't think Blizzard's goal was to have the tournament-of-tournaments that would put those other events to shame.
Anyway, just my 2 cents. I may write more later, but must go to bed.
the last map of blizzcon final was so crappy... seriously how nestea could lose this he had 10k minerals and 3k 200/200 when mvp had only 500 minerals and 200/200 . He let mvp kills his hatch with only one medivac 8 marines per hatch with all this minerals couldn't he recreate hacths? seriously the worst game i've ever seen in sc2 it disgusted me nestea gave him the game.
<3 MMA since i saw him playing in the first GS team league . the little emperooooooaaar
On October 26 2011 15:41 NATO wrote: "If you think about it, Snipe really is a bit overpowered. Basically, it converts a mostly free resource (energy) into damage, and it does it instantly. Sure, Psi Storm and Fungal Growth have better damage per mana potential, but they deal their damage over time, and can be dodged as well. With snipe, the DPS is only limited by how fast you can shift queue up new targets."
WTF is this crap? What has TL become, making unfounded QQ statements. Fungals is NOT dodgable, and also STOPS THE UNIT FROM MOVING AT ALL, making all zerg's melee units just wreck everything. Furthermore, those area of effect spells are tremenously easier to pull off, as that many snipes not only requires ridiculous attention and apm (only MVP can even pull that off), but you have to have good mouse precision and speed as well as you are clicking targets, rather than general areas.
Furthermore, the concept that a zerg should be able to 1a victory every game is just saddening. If you lazily 1a your BL with no ground support right into a terrans base after you've given him time to prepare, you better expect something to come up and kill them. With support, the BL plus fungal there is really no way to even touch BL.
Ever notice how this strategy doesn't catch on? That's because you basically have to be a super human to pull it off, and even then Nestea made so many mistakes he basically handed MVP the game. Even with all those huge mistakes, MVP had to act like a god to pull of the narrow victory.
caaaalm down ^_^
NATO has a good point though. I'm pretty sure he's raging after the (very biased) opinion in the OP post.
After watching MVP vs Nestea I hopped on a custom unit test map to try to snipe as fast as I can...man do you ever need high APM, otherwise you won't be able to do anything else but snipe. Plus as far as I can tell, Nestea's final engagement with the ghosts was horrid, he sent in his Overseers last when they didn't matter, and the few infestors were late to the party.
While it was obvious Nestea was fucked once MVP got his mass ghost snipe squad up, it was disappointing to see Nestea basically give up and half ass it the rest of the way. A-moving broodlords into a mass of ghosts and vikings with very little support is a lame end of a tournament.
MMA has made a direct connection with the American crowds that no other Korean has been able to make except for maybe the Emperor himself.
Anyone that was at MLG Orlando can tell you that you forgot about someone: MarineKing.
Blizzard's best move for fans of e-Sports was allowing the GSL to come to Blizzcon
How so? One of the biggest concerns with Blizzard is that they are trying to control the professional scene too much. Surely bringing the finals in as an advertising stunt while confirming that vital features for a professional game will never be made available is an insult if anything.
About the lack of more stream-channels - it SO F*CKIN TRUE! The Match, i, personally was excited to see the most is Brat_OK vs. Nestea (best russian player vs. best korean zerg). They didn't show it', instead they showed a ZvZ. Mirror match on main stage?! WTF?
Theory on that 3rd Nestea vs MVP game : what would be a better place than Blizzcon to show that a turtling terran with mass ghost is not well balanced ?
Anyway, I'm so happy for MMA, but I feel sad for MVP as well, because crowd didn't make him feel he was loved too. Great read as always.
Waxangel I share your passion to do something about the ghost snipe! Awesome write up as usual! Its hilarious that TLs coverage widely exceeds the coverage blizzard did for their own tournament.
how can you claim that nestea knows better than to swarm the middle and that he has played hundreds of games like that? The fact that he went Broodlord/infestor only against mass ghost in my opinion proves the exact opposite. Or do you think making 20+ Broods was the correct choice against mass ghost?
I disagree with adding in balance discussion into 'news' articles. It makes reading the articles much less enjoyable and more like reading a regular forum page. I sure as hell didn't see a similar post back when the metagame still favored brood/infestor heavily. The defeatist 'x is OP' attitude, which is engrained it seems in the entire SC2 community by this point, is doing nothing but creating worse games and turning people away from the game.
Not to mention that the comparison with the July game is incorrect, what July did was exactly what Nestea didn't; a giant 2 base (almost) all-in, after which the game was simply decided on economy alone.
Discussing the possibility of prize-splitting is absolutely terrible aswell. Can I go an insinuate the same thing about other tournaments also? I know what I'll be doing come TSL4 :/.
Speculations on how Nestea could have won that last game:
1. Make more overseers and actually use them. Maxed out on supply with a trust fund in the bank? Make 20+ overseers and ball them up with the broodlords.
2. Don't attack the middle? Obviously there's tanks, PFs and ghosts sitting there so why not attack the unit producing structures in the main instead with either drops or broodlords? Or both? Or even split up those 20+ broodlords and send them to different objectives? Why slam your head against the brick wall defense in the middle instead of picking apart MVPs ability to remake units? If MVP wants to sit and turtle in the middle, fine. Kill everything else. Sure, this was a split map scenario, but MVP didn't set up the new Iron Curtain.
I only bring these up because I'm not totally sold on the ghost OP sentiment. Sure, zerg has to pull some shenanigans, but it seems that there are definitely ways around this.
I'm sorry to say it, but I'm not a fan of articles like this. In fact, I didn't though I would see such heavy balance whining implications in battle report featured on TL. Well, times are changing it seems. For the worse dare I say.
It's basically blatant theorycraft, although well written. Current mass ghost transition is quite new trend, heavily unexplored, yet this article treats it like already broken thing, because "the supposedly smartest player in the world" played like crap against it in one game.
Making such heavy implications from basically two games is something I wouldn't expect from Featured News article, which should have more professional standards than common SC2 strategy subforum threads.
The live report thread erupted into a terrible shitstorm after the game. Something I though TL wanted to avoid. But this article seems to imply the opposite, as it basically says "you were right people, the ghost are indeed broken!".
I would prefer battle reports split from balance theorycraft altogether AND having balance theorycraft articles only after some trend is well established, with a lot more evidence.
edit: To be fair though, the nonbalance parts are quite enjoyable!
Nice write up, and I agree that long ZvTs on Shakuras are just plain frustrating. The middle of the map becomes impassable once ghosts are out. But I have to say, I don't think Nestea was taking the last game seriously, or if he was, I've never seen him play so underwhelmingly.
His macro was horribad near the end - watch how much of the time he is supply blocked, well short of 200 supply, despite having a semi-infinite supply of larvae and resources. Nestea is not the greatest macro player in the world, but he's pretty damn good, and it's unusual to see him supply blocked more than a handful of times in a game (and then only briefly).
Moreover, his drone management was extremely disappointing. Why keep 100 supply in drones when you're facing a maxed Terran and you've banked half a map? And then at the end, it was the complete opposite - he didn't bother trying to restart his economy. The whole nydus full of banelings, and the 25 broodlord attack... they are just things that could never work, and Nestea had to know that. Whether it was out of frustration or showboating I'm not sure. But for me as a viewer, it made for a pretty disappointing conclusion to an epic match.
Spectacular write-up, thanks so much. It was very interesting to read about the analyses of those games versus Mvp and Nestea, which was most definitely a stunning finals for the Blizzcon Invitational. Although I actually wanted Nestea to win rather than Mvp, I think that Mvp deserved it with his well-timed and greatly executed timing attacks where he caught his teammate entirely off-guard.
Ultimately Blizzcon 2011 was a fantastic event and huge success, and as such, I eagerly await Blizzcon 2012 :D I know it is a bit early, but one just cannot contain one's excitement for all the great things which are happening so quickly in the wonderful world of eSports.
Interesting read, I did not know TL was bringing balance discussion into the tournament write ups. I am not sure how I feel about that just yet. I think I would prefer to hear just about the tournament(s). That is not to say I disliked the write up, I thought it was very well done. However, some parts felt like I was in the balance discussion threads.
I completely understand the rage at 1 game at a time, with long breaks inbetween.
However, I don't see why people are angry that they didnt show the "best" games early in the tournament. Blizzcon is a global invitiational, for a global audience - and Blizzard has almost a duty to perform in letting regional fans see their players after all the effort put in for them to be at the event.
It was almost inevitable that the koreans, naniwa, select and sen were going to progress far into the tournament, and that the SEA, LA and so on were not. You dont have to be a genius to see that was a very probably outcome - so how can you blame blizzard for giving the SEA/LA players some coverage whilst they were still in the tournament....
Especially given the korea-fest that was likely to occur on day2 and at the GSL.
Of course multiple streams would fix this "issue", but really it seems very childish for players to kick up a fuss that blizzard has an obligation to their global audience - not just to fans of korean players.
I feel mvp would have won if he would have just made a turret ring in 2 of the games. Just an opinion of mine. Can't beleive he got dropped that many times in the same 2-3 spots over and over again.
Liked reading the part about Pot-Splitting, thanks for that (and actually the Ghost part was interesting aswell, but i have to agree with my pre-posters, that it could've been more neutral towards them and more analytic of MVPs play instead of focused on the Unit that destroyed Nesteas hope of winning)
Considering Pot splitting: Especially in Communitys simmilar, but smaller and less professional to SC2, i think Pot "Splitting" may be an honorable thing, if you share you're winnings with your Team or Trainingpartner. Optimaly, the winner should still make more than the second place finisher, but if you as Winner feel your Team deserves some, it should not be "forbidden", and it cannot be. But it is always inapropriate to announce it openly, or to let it show during the finals that you dont really care about what happens, as it is your responsibility as a player to give your best. You owe it to Fans, Sponsors and your Opponent.
That said, I do not believe it is possible to condemn anyone for Pot-Splitting if it isn't "admitted" by the player and no one should be denounced for doing so because of not playing his best, because that can have 2 Billion and more reasons.
Love the writeup, especially Poke's section on MMA v MVP. THere's really something to be said about the underdog coming around and showing his stuff against someone thought to be completely superior.
To be honest, I think that Snipe, Psionic Storm, and Fungal Growth all have their advantages. We've seen the merits of snipe in the Mvp/Nestea and Mvp/July games. Psionic storm is AOE and does more damage but can be dodge for the most part. Fungal growth holds the units in place and is generally for positioning purposes with banelings etc. So all this talk about snipe being OP is a little ridiculous. It's a very good spell, yes, but it's on the same footing with these other spells in terms of usefulness.
Just my opinion anyway.
I agree with Blizzcon being a little lackluster. One thing I enjoyed out of it was the trivia questions. I think if MLG can add something like that between games instead of showing the crowd it would be a nice addition.
While there are certain prize-spliting allegations, I think it simply just leads us to another issue: The fact that two of the most dominant players are on the same team. While I dont see anything necessarily wrong with Nestea and MVP being on the same team, I feel that the scene could grow if the two of them were on separate teams and were actually rivals rather than teammates, similar to Boxer-Yellow and Flash-Jaedong. Such a rivalry would generate interest in the scene. Nestea-MVP matches are already highly watched and anticipated, simply imagine if there were more of a rivalry and storyline with the two players.
I find it quite distasteful how many people discredit MMA's SKILL. When I hear people talk about the GSL Finals people always attribute MMA's win to his prepared builds(or spirit, or balls). But I think his builds were only a small factor of it. The proxy tank marine timing was ingenious in the fact that MMA proxied it, usually you only proxy racks or hellions but siege tank and a full timing force? MVP had no idea what was coming. MMA mind-tricks: 1 MVP: 0. Then through out the entire series MMA was consistently up in supply, his macro I daresay was on par if not at times above MVPs, at the very least his multitasking definitely was. You have to also note that MVP was using full force Mech builds, which should ultimately steam roll any bio composition late game, but does MMA care? Nope, he simply turned his game up a notch and picked MVP apart, I'd say Outclassed. Alot of you cheerleaders on that MVP wagon fail to observe and RECOGNIZE MMA's uncanny ability to juggle the SHIT out of MVP, out Microing, out APMing, out Expanding and simply out Playing MVP. Lets pay some respect where its due, it was MMA's AMAZING battle sense, offensive abilities and ingenious tactics backed by solid overarching macro which won him the game, I understand that players' performances are hugely dependent on their conditions, and I agree MVP wasn't at his prime at all, but MMA was, in almost every way a superior player.
On October 26 2011 23:29 risque wrote: I find it quite distasteful how many people discredit MMA's SKILL. When I hear people talk about the GSL Finals people always attribute MMA's win to his prepared builds(or spirit, or balls). But I think his builds were only a small factor of it. The proxy tank marine timing was ingenious in the fact that MMA proxied it, usually you only proxy racks or hellions but siege tank and a full timing force? MVP had no idea what was coming. MMA mind-tricks: 1 MVP: 0. Then through out the entire series MMA was consistently up in supply, his macro I daresay was on par if not at times above MVPs, at the very least his multitasking definitely was. You have to also note that MVP was using full force Mech builds, which should ultimately steam roll any bio composition late game, but does MMA care? Nope, he simply turned his game up a notch and picked MVP apart, I'd say Outclassed. Alot of you cheerleaders on that MVP wagon fail to observe and RECOGNIZE MMA's uncanny ability to juggle the SHIT out of MVP, out Microing, out APMing, out Expanding and simply out Playing MVP. Lets pay some respect where its due, it was MMA's AMAZING battle sense, offensive abilities and ingenious tactics backed by solid overarching macro which won him the game, I understand that players' performances are hugely dependent on their conditions, and I agree MVP wasn't at his prime at all, but MMA was, in almost every way a superior player.
Yup, i agreed with you that. MMA' s macro and micro were better than Mvp. Mvp wasn't as active as MMA, Mvp played like turtle a bit (but he' still a very very steady turtle), but MMA was not. Mvp's resources reached above 1k many times blah, ..blah ...blah...... Just wait and see how MMA defeat Mvp in MLG Global invitational.
On October 26 2011 23:24 Bagration wrote: While there are certain prize-spliting allegations, I think it simply just leads us to another issue: The fact that two of the most dominant players are on the same team. While I dont see anything necessarily wrong with Nestea and MVP being on the same team, I feel that the scene could grow if the two of them were on separate teams and were actually rivals rather than teammates, similar to Boxer-Yellow and Flash-Jaedong. Such a rivalry would generate interest in the scene. Nestea-MVP matches are already highly watched and anticipated, simply imagine if there were more of a rivalry and storyline with the two players.
You mean like the rivalry between MMA and MVP?
I think at this point it's safe to call it a bit of a rivalry, between MLG Anaheim, GSPA, MLG Global Invitational, and GSL October.
I thought this was the most interesting finals because even though it was 4-1 the games were all very close and back and forth. It really put the players decision making on display, and I hated the TvT round with Ganzi in the semis. I was considering not watching this final because of that display.
One thing I've noticed lately about Nestea's play is that his infestor control is a little weak compared to say DRG's or even Stephano's. For example one thing they always do when attacking a seiged army with ling/infestors is throw in a few infested terrans to absorb the first few tank shots. I've never seen Nestea do this and more than a few times I've seen him bring in his lings first while his infestors lingered far behind. Can't say if that match was fixed or not, maybe they agreed on splitting but Nestea definitely shipped in his performance in the second half of the game.
Nestea could've literally made mass hatcheries and spammed lings at so many points in that final game. Literally overwhelming MVP but instead in an effort to "show the best games" as Koreans always seem to be trying to do he tried to win via mass banelings and nydus worms multiple times as that seems to be the korean zerg fallback (moon, losira, and july)and when that failed he make a ton of broodlords with no support but like 4 infestors....uh...what? That was the worst strategical move I've seen in a while. Not to mention all of MVP's nukes landed!!! Oh and btw snipe isn't easy at all. You can't shift cue or ghosts will get stuck freaking out instead of sniping. The way I've read that is the fastest involves hold position hold fire and then shift cuing which usually leaves your ghosts vulnerable but Nestea didn't even have detection if I remember correctly. Terran needed to win this Blizzcon. Next year when zerg can't be beat (infester+viper+burrow move banelings) zerg will win all the tournaments and zerg can explain why they aren't overpowered. Even thought it's the zerg expansion so they should be.
The prize-splitting does effect the quality of the game. That shakuras game was probably the biggest WTF moment in all of SC2 to date. At one point he had a 120 banelings with tons of larva stacked and a huge amount of resources banked. He easily could of just A moved and killed half the army and Instantly remax of roach/ling and win. But instead he does rookie movies like defend drops with his entire army, uncharacteristically bad nydus ( I mean with those resources why not at least make 2-3 nydus networks). Then the baneling drop was a total fail. MVP had been going heavy marines due to Nestea's earlier muta harras, which also caused him to build a ton of turrets. Nestea had to know he was going into a death trap. And then to do it with no AA support I mean come on. Then to waste all his resources on broodlords with no AA support when he already saw viking ghost combo is ridiculous.
Prize splitting ruins the integrity of the competition and degrades the value of their achievements, as well as provide worse entertainment. I mean this is like the match fixing that occurs in BW except no one we know of at the moment is betting on the game.
On October 26 2011 14:25 Vindicare605 wrote: It's worth mentioning that MVP also had 14-18 Vikings in the mix when Nestea's desperation Broodlord Attack came.
I don't think you're intentionally misleading anyone into thinking that Ghosts alone took out the Broodlords, but its probably a good idea to include that as well. It only serves as more evidence that Nestea's final attack was more out of desperation and frustration than clear calculation. Sending Broodlords in solo against Ghosts and Vikings is not a good plan even for him.
Other than that, awesome write up.
That’s what I was thinking….even if he didn’t have ghosts, he had a crap load of Vikings, which hard counter broodlords. He would have won in that situation anyways. Especially, after MVP took out some of his hatcheries and Nestea even though he banked 15K decided not to build anymore (which I thought was a little weird). If he kept up on his hatcheries he could have just kept remaxing, but this time with something different that would take out Ghosts.
Definitely a great write up though!! Wax you are the man! Minus the ghost comment. You can’t exactly attack with 95% broodlords (ground only) against 14 vikings (Air) with or without the ghosts. It was a bad engagement no matter how you look at it.
Meh to partial in one direction with the MVP v NesTea game, your screenshoots does not show the obvious flaws and mistakes that NesTea did that he had never ever come close to doing before.
Someone said
It's fascinating how people can accuse without any concrete proof.
That's what the definition of accuse is, else I PROVE that NesTea was doing something fishy. Tosser.
All I can say is I'm a heardcore NesTea fan and this just was the shittiest he's ever played ever for no apparent reason other than to lose. To go from playing godly first 15 minutes to just blatantly fail and fail again with no thought behind the failing just makes this, atleast for me, obvious that not everything was right.
By far my favorite component of this writeup is the discussion of the evolution of the late-late game ghost play. I've been worried about this kind of play for a while and, sadly, since Zerg doesn't have any EMP / feedback equivalent, late-late-game energy units are a big problem. Anything that does big energy-to-damage conversion can become quite dangerous.
The first article part is really anti-T biased...snipe is not as OP as the article makes out, and also Nestea did many *cough* weird things such as bringing zero overseers with his *cough* 27 broodlords, not utilizing multiple nydus, morphing *cough* once again, only broodlords with zero corruptors vs vikings...*cough* suiciding banelings and overlords for no reason..doing *cough* many questionable things.
For a player of nestea's calibre he was in more than a winnable situation. It's interesting that instead of analyzing all of the obvious things nestea did wrong, and the things that were so obviously bronze of the best zerg in the world...you instead decided to write the most slanted article about how ghosts are somehow OP.
....
At least you got the second half of that biased article somewhat right...as there was much more going on in that game than the game itself...*cough money*
Everyone could see something was wrong with that game...
Also, you conveniently failed to mention their reactions after the games, nestea all smiles after losing like he had no care in the world, and MVP leaving the booth almost sickened with himself, not even going to shake his teammates hand - he just left the stage.
Can someone just go ahead and make the custom map that allows you to play from Nestea's position in that game? someone out there has the time to duplicate the specifics of that game from the replay, since the replays are out.
I'm particularly curious to see what would have happened if Nestea just rammed those 120 banelings down the middle and refilled with lings or something instead of pussyfooting around with drops and anti-harassment.
Nice writeup! I don't think they would fix the matches but i don't really care if they did. Also, i don't think you can shift-queue snipe.. the ghosts will get confused with walking and firing .. unless maybe you do hold fire first? So far i'm only able to click snipe-click-snipe-click-etc.
Do I sense Terran OP in waxangel's write up? Ye ghosts are good, but they cam be dealt with Wow, its amazing how much Terran OP there is going on! Let's enjoy the game, and be happy Blizz says that WoL is balanced, cos their stats show that (except in Korea). I think that pretty much ends the discussion, esp seen as most of us live in NA / EU.
I for one really enjoyed the Blizzcon event, and certainly had my share of nerdchills and memorable games. :D
Very nice writeup. Waxangel, your recaps are more and more interesting, I'm under the feeling that you find the game itself to be more and more interesting (as I do) and it shows on your writings
If you're not going to address balance when the best in the world play then you might as well stfu about it since lower level tactics and strategy will always be countered by higher level tactics and strategy. I'm not saying I agree with Wax's assessment but to claim he shouldn't be talking about it since it's official tl news or w/e is ridiculous, it seems really relevant as a possible cause for one player to lose a 10k mineral advantage. I think Nestea was defeated mentally once MVP setup his defense though, nothing else to me explains how utterly he failed all his executions and drop defense. I can only imagine the horror of practicing against the best turtle terran in the world every day and then have him achieve full turtle successfully on this huge stage, lol...
On October 27 2011 05:17 TrivialRiot wrote: If you're not going to address balance when the best in the world play then you might as well stfu about it since lower level tactics and strategy will always be countered by higher level tactics and strategy. I'm not saying I agree with Wax's assessment but to claim he shouldn't be talking about it since it's official tl news or w/e is ridiculous, it seems really relevant as a possible cause for one player to lose a 10k mineral advantage. I think Nestea was defeated mentally once MVP setup his defense though, nothing else to me explains how utterly he failed all his executions and drop defense. I can only imagine the horror of practicing against the best turtle terran in the world every day and then have him achieve full turtle successfully on this huge stage, lol...
When you put it that way, there's no way he hasn't tried hundreds of times to break MVP's front via ground after the late game approaches, no wonder he was doing all that risky play.
Great write up. It's nice to be able to read this because i missed a lot of the Blizzcon ( was at ESWC ) I saw the Blizzcon final tho, and i hope people will not take the last game as balance argument
Nestea and MVP were both tired as fuck at this point. Peopne were saying Nestea was sleeping between matches. Decision making in this state is not great, remember that.
Great reads as usual, but I'm a little disappointed that Wax's writeup suggests Terran/Snipe OP. That game could have gone either way, and he even pointed out some of the mistakes that Nestea made (such as the terrible drop decisions). I don't think it's fair to say that ghost-turtling is OP, given that the primary examples where it has worked it was being executed by Mvp's godly micro and his Zerg opponents didn't exactly have an inspired response.
The other game that comes to mind besides the two you mentioned was Puma vs Idra at IEM. We know Puma has great micro and Idra let him get a powerful army, but Idra was still able to dismantle him gradually.
Don't like the whole Terran OP stuff. Everyone knows MVP is the best player in the world, even Nestea has attested to this. No one complained about game one of the 2nd bo1 when nestea was able to max out by the time MVP was only at 120 supply and just slaughter him.
As for the whole match fixing thing, seriously guys? It's not like they just worker rushed eachother. They played entertaining games, very entertaining games.
Set 2 - maybe should be added for complete clarity. (it's still clear, of course)
On MVP Nestea, lategame mass ghost isn't unbeatable in general, only unbeatable with what Nestea was doing this game. He commited too far into a direction that was bound to fail more and more, and he didn't adapt quickly enough, otherwise he had the game. He made these mistakes, sure, but it doesn't seem to have been on purpose, at all. It also doesn't make him "bad", it's difficult to estimate.
Its funny, protoss and zergs dont even mention the snipe write-up because its just like a "well...yeah? we know its messed up" kinda reaction but terrans are all indignant as fuck
Really enjoyed the read.One of my goals for 2012 is Blizzcon tickets so i can experience the crowds for myself. Wish Nestea would have taken the Con down for the swarm though.
On October 26 2011 16:13 FidoDido wrote: I can't believe so little people didn't noticed Nestea lost the last engagement because his broodlords couldn't attack the cloaked ghosts (he forgot to bring the 5 overseers he made, watch the vod carefully and you'll see)
This. I was watching it live and I was shouting at the screen that Nestea should bring his overseers from the top right corner of the map. Cloaked units stomp anything without detection.
On October 26 2011 15:41 NATO wrote: "If you think about it, Snipe really is a bit overpowered. Basically, it converts a mostly free resource (energy) into damage, and it does it instantly. Sure, Psi Storm and Fungal Growth have better damage per mana potential, but they deal their damage over time, and can be dodged as well. With snipe, the DPS is only limited by how fast you can shift queue up new targets."
WTF is this crap? What has TL become, making unfounded QQ statements. Fungals is NOT dodgable, and also STOPS THE UNIT FROM MOVING AT ALL, making all zerg's melee units just wreck everything. Furthermore, those area of effect spells are tremenously easier to pull off, as that many snipes not only requires ridiculous attention and apm (only MVP can even pull that off), but you have to have good mouse precision and speed as well as you are clicking targets, rather than general areas.
Furthermore, the concept that a zerg should be able to 1a victory every game is just saddening. If you lazily 1a your BL with no ground support right into a terrans base after you've given him time to prepare, you better expect something to come up and kill them. With support, the BL plus fungal there is really no way to even touch BL.
Ever notice how this strategy doesn't catch on? That's because you basically have to be a super human to pull it off, and even then Nestea made so many mistakes he basically handed MVP the game. Even with all those huge mistakes, MVP had to act like a god to pull of the narrow victory.
Dude, are you serious? For one fungal is not instant, it does move quite fast, but similar to storm where if you know where it is going to land you can move away and you can avoid some of the area if not the whole thing. Snipe is different once it has been fired it does not miss. So quit making your own unfounded QQ statements.
Secondly it really isn't that hard to mass snipe, just hold down the snipe button and spam click, sure it is definitely more efficient for someone like MVP who has better mouse precision but it's not hard to pull off.
Thirdly, this "Furthermore, the concept that a zerg should be able to 1a victory every game is just saddening." unless you are talking about the opinons of other users, this was not implied at all in the write up. What was stated in this situation was that "MVP had finished his preparations..." and Ghosts counter pretty much everything Zerg, especially slow, gas-heavy, low HP, end-game biological units., which is NOT the same thing at all and does not even complain that Nesteas attack failed, it simply states what happened. So quit trying to put down the writers by putting false arguments that you have pulled out of nowhere.
If you want to challenge the writers for the articles on a site like Team Liquid that does so much for the community, at least do them the respect of making valid arguments.
Dude, are you serious? For one fungal is not instant, it does move quite fast, but similar to storm where if you know where it is going to land you can move away and you can avoid some of the area if not the whole thing. Snipe is different once it has been fired it does not miss. So quit making your own unfounded QQ statements.
Thats utter bullshit. Fungal is instant, you cast it and the growth appears. Time doesnt pass between you clicking and it happening if you are within range. Even if there is a tiny delay, its so small you couldnt possibly predict which way the fungals gonna hit and dodge
Nestea didn't bring 5 or overseers with him the last engagement. Not only would that the overseers tanked a good amount of damage if target fired. A single wave of broodlings would've taken out a good 3rd of MVP's ghosts, before they could snipe again, and I feel that's a conservative estimate. 24 broods... that's no joke.
Anyway infestor anti air = the vikings would have won out anyway. Seriously sloppy play by Nestea. It wasn't a final stand it was surrender with a flair.
On October 26 2011 15:41 NATO wrote: "If you think about it, Snipe really is a bit overpowered. Basically, it converts a mostly free resource (energy) into damage, and it does it instantly. Sure, Psi Storm and Fungal Growth have better damage per mana potential, but they deal their damage over time, and can be dodged as well. With snipe, the DPS is only limited by how fast you can shift queue up new targets."
WTF is this crap? What has TL become, making unfounded QQ statements. Fungals is NOT dodgable, and also STOPS THE UNIT FROM MOVING AT ALL, making all zerg's melee units just wreck everything. Furthermore, those area of effect spells are tremenously easier to pull off, as that many snipes not only requires ridiculous attention and apm (only MVP can even pull that off), but you have to have good mouse precision and speed as well as you are clicking targets, rather than general areas.
Furthermore, the concept that a zerg should be able to 1a victory every game is just saddening. If you lazily 1a your BL with no ground support right into a terrans base after you've given him time to prepare, you better expect something to come up and kill them. With support, the BL plus fungal there is really no way to even touch BL.
Ever notice how this strategy doesn't catch on? That's because you basically have to be a super human to pull it off, and even then Nestea made so many mistakes he basically handed MVP the game. Even with all those huge mistakes, MVP had to act like a god to pull of the narrow victory.
Dude, are you serious? For one fungal is not instant, it does move quite fast, but similar to storm where if you know where it is going to land you can move away and you can avoid some of the area if not the whole thing. Snipe is different once it has been fired it does not miss. So quit making your own unfounded QQ statements.
Secondly it really isn't that hard to mass snipe, just hold down the snipe button and spam click, sure it is definitely more efficient for someone like MVP who has better mouse precision but it's not hard to pull off.
Thirdly, this "Furthermore, the concept that a zerg should be able to 1a victory every game is just saddening." unless you are talking about the opinons of other users, this was not implied at all in the write up. What was stated in this situation was that "MVP had finished his preparations..." and Ghosts counter pretty much everything Zerg, especially slow, gas-heavy, low HP, end-game biological units., which is NOT the same thing at all and does not even complain that Nesteas attack failed, it simply states what happened. So quit trying to put down the writers by putting false arguments that you have pulled out of nowhere.
If you want to challenge the writers for the articles on a site like Team Liquid that does so much for the community, at least do them the respect of making valid arguments.
Couple of points wrong with this.
Try and mass snipe. It's very clear you play Protoss or Zerg and have never tried to mass snipe. The A requirements are extremely high.
And really, TL is no place for balance discussion even Less so in news written by staff. Regular members get banned for that. Sigh, kinda sucks having a player based with a large percentage that plays Zerg.
The complaints about Blizzcon coverage are understandable, but you must look at it from Blizzard's point of view. Blizzcon is not about competitive gaming. It's a showcase of the game. And one might argue that you want to put the best players up there, but getting people to just watch SC2 matches arguably makes less money for Blizzard and the surrounding sponsors than putting up people who haven't really been seen before. Additionally, it's obvious that many of these players aren't going to make it deep into the tournament, and getting as many of them on stage as possible is a priority. MVP and Nestea will be almost guaranteed to be featured in 4 of the matches (one of them in the winners semi, winners final, losers final, and grand finals).
Additionally, there was essentially no room for additional streams. The only even possible method to cast another game would have been on the DirectTV stream only, as, if you've never been to Blizzcon before, the place is stuffed. In the end, it's about Blizzard featuring their products and generating hype about their games, with tournament coverage being a secondary draw. MLG is all about the games, and that's what allows it to survive, despite its relatively paltry prize pools. I don't even understand why people would complain about gaps in scheduling either - what if a match set went epic-style? Scheduling is tight.
And before you say that there are so many people watching these games in the crowd, it must be a huge draw - in the two Blizzcons I have gone to, being able to sit down, relax, and watch SC2 feels so good, no matter which no names might be playing.
Fact is, if Blizzard wanted to feature a tournament and sell stream tickets, they could have just invited like 12 Koreans and the 4 most popular foreigners like Huk and Idra and it would have been a lot more fun for us, but would accomplish little for Blizzard.
Finally, I did find that there was too much complaining about balance stemming from an unusual final game. General opinion at Blizzcon and from many people on these boards is that Nestea didn't play particularly well. The thing is Nestea has never defeated MVP in the GSL, so why would that change here? I mean, he did 2-0 MVP in the winners bracket final, but that still wasn't an elimination match. Fact is, MVP is better than Nestea, head-to-head, at least based on the results we've been given so far. Don't forget, Nestea has never even lost to anyone else in GSL Code S outside of group stages. And even then, who knows what would have happened if Nestea actually had played closer to a "perfect" game instead of spending like 10 banelings on each 8 marine drop.
In the end, drawing conclusions about balance from a single game of pretty unusual circumstance is relatively pointless. When we really look at it, MVP has a really strong style against Nestea's play style, especially considering late game TvZ on that map. If I would conclude anything from the game, it would be more about map balance than race balance.
ofcourse turteling is gonna seem better when u have maps like shakuras. setting up any form of defense in the center of that map u will make it look it "imba" to casual viewers. kinda silly to call ghosts imba when on other maps its so different. but even so, kinda silly go talk about snipe being imba in general as most times we see broodlord corruptor infestor roll through in the lategame. just reminds me of the biased people watching me. when i win with massghost late game vs zerg they call ghost imba and when i use mass broodlord spine crawler infestor corruptor they say that is imba. can you please just leave balance out of the topic? maybe talk about how good mvp was instead of giving all credits to his unit
zvt is no balance problem here. its just a very very few amounts of maps that are silly in situations. for example shakuras is silly late game, aswell as shattered temple being silly early and late game. but really on the avarage maps u play zvt is really fine, and mass ghost is not really something terran can just pull out of their hat. you need massive economy and production to do something like this
On October 26 2011 15:41 NATO wrote: "If you think about it, Snipe really is a bit overpowered. Basically, it converts a mostly free resource (energy) into damage, and it does it instantly. Sure, Psi Storm and Fungal Growth have better damage per mana potential, but they deal their damage over time, and can be dodged as well. With snipe, the DPS is only limited by how fast you can shift queue up new targets."
WTF is this crap? What has TL become, making unfounded QQ statements. Fungals is NOT dodgable, and also STOPS THE UNIT FROM MOVING AT ALL, making all zerg's melee units just wreck everything. Furthermore, those area of effect spells are tremenously easier to pull off, as that many snipes not only requires ridiculous attention and apm (only MVP can even pull that off), but you have to have good mouse precision and speed as well as you are clicking targets, rather than general areas.
Furthermore, the concept that a zerg should be able to 1a victory every game is just saddening. If you lazily 1a your BL with no ground support right into a terrans base after you've given him time to prepare, you better expect something to come up and kill them. With support, the BL plus fungal there is really no way to even touch BL.
Ever notice how this strategy doesn't catch on? That's because you basically have to be a super human to pull it off, and even then Nestea made so many mistakes he basically handed MVP the game. Even with all those huge mistakes, MVP had to act like a god to pull of the narrow victory.
Dude, are you serious? For one fungal is not instant, it does move quite fast, but similar to storm where if you know where it is going to land you can move away and you can avoid some of the area if not the whole thing. Snipe is different once it has been fired it does not miss. So quit making your own unfounded QQ statements.
Secondly it really isn't that hard to mass snipe, just hold down the snipe button and spam click, sure it is definitely more efficient for someone like MVP who has better mouse precision but it's not hard to pull off.
Thirdly, this "Furthermore, the concept that a zerg should be able to 1a victory every game is just saddening." unless you are talking about the opinons of other users, this was not implied at all in the write up. What was stated in this situation was that "MVP had finished his preparations..." and Ghosts counter pretty much everything Zerg, especially slow, gas-heavy, low HP, end-game biological units., which is NOT the same thing at all and does not even complain that Nesteas attack failed, it simply states what happened. So quit trying to put down the writers by putting false arguments that you have pulled out of nowhere.
If you want to challenge the writers for the articles on a site like Team Liquid that does so much for the community, at least do them the respect of making valid arguments.
Couple of points wrong with this.
Try and mass snipe. It's very clear you play Protoss or Zerg and have never tried to mass snipe. The A requirements are extremely high.
And really, TL is no place for balance discussion even Less so in news written by staff. Regular members get banned for that. Sigh, kinda sucks having a player based with a large percentage that plays Zerg.
While I don't 1v1 as Terran I play team games as random, so I have some experience as Terran, and believe it or not, I have played around with mass Ghosts before. Since you posted this I started to doubt myself as it was quite a while ago. However I just tried it out again, and yes I do still find it easy to mass snipe. I'm not saying I could do it as well as MVP by any means but I still don't see what the big deal is.
On October 27 2011 22:29 MorroW wrote: ofcourse turteling is gonna seem better when u have maps like shakuras. setting up any form of defense in the center of that map u will make it look it "imba" to casual viewers. kinda silly to call ghosts imba when on other maps its so different. but even so, kinda silly go talk about snipe being imba in general as most times we see broodlord corruptor infestor roll through in the lategame. just reminds me of the biased people watching me. when i win with massghost late game vs zerg they call ghost imba and when i use mass broodlord spine crawler infestor corruptor they say that is imba. can you please just leave balance out of the topic? maybe talk about how good mvp was instead of giving all credits to his unit
zvt is no balance problem here. its just a very very few amounts of maps that are silly in situations. for example shakuras is silly late game, aswell as shattered temple being silly early and late game. but really on the avarage maps u play zvt is really fine, and mass ghost is not really something terran can just pull out of their hat. you need massive economy and production to do something like this
doesn't that make you happy metal is back in the map pool :D
NesTea just wasn't playing late-game well... His multitasking was not very good. I know he didn't need those drones... but If he had just attacked all mining bases at once with a full supply of upgraded zerglings continiously for 5 minutes he still would've had money left... and would've won the game through brute force...
As a spectator (online, not in person) I really enjoyed watching the Blizzcon final. While it is possible that a Terran with 20 ghosts and a fortified middle is virtually impossible for zerg to beat and Nestea was well aware of it. However, my thought (and I'm not that good so I could be out to lunch here) is that if Nestead knew that a late game turtling terran with mass ghosts would be virtually impossible to beat, then why didn't he add more macro hatchries earlier and spend those extra funds as he was making them so he could apply more pressure earlier on. Why didn't he work harder to stop MVP from getting to that position? He appeared to have the resources to do something about it earlier on. By the time MVP was established with many ghosts it was likely too late - his stockpiled minerals didn't help him win.
On October 27 2011 18:41 thepuppyassassin wrote: Nestea didn't bring 5 or overseers with him the last engagement. Not only would that the overseers tanked a good amount of damage if target fired. A single wave of broodlings would've taken out a good 3rd of MVP's ghosts, before they could snipe again, and I feel that's a conservative estimate. 24 broods... that's no joke.
Anyway infestor anti air = the vikings would have won out anyway. Seriously sloppy play by Nestea. It wasn't a final stand it was surrender with a flair.
Yeah been meaning to say this somewhere myself, though I doubt anybody would listen. Ghosts can only spam snipe for 30 seconds straight if there cloaked and the opponent has no vision. Nestea coulda made like 50 overseers (literally) and gone with that. 20+ broods insta kills like 20 ghosts and that woulda been that.
Nice write up but I resent the balance statements.
LOL, seriously, people who said bronze silver could win the game did not understand that game at all.
OK try to walk 120 or 200 banelings into middle of the map where there is a siege tank line + 2 PF off creep as well....... and see what happen lol, even if he can remax ling banelings 10 times not 3 times like you said..... or do you think MVP did not clear creeps in the middle of the map?
what can nestea do in that game at the very late, he try to do the doom drop, people said it do no damage and a waste drop. Of course he have to do something, he try to drop them on top of tank + ghost but he did not expect them to be snipe that fast, or he try to gamble on MVP snipe ability.
OK some of you guys heard Destiny whine about anyone could win that game. But Dimaga and Huk also said that what Nestea did and his thought process in that game is normal, and Do you think Dimaga opinion < than Destiny????
Dont forget Nestea Infestor get EMPed, not Snipe alone. Ultralisks are sucked vs Ghosts.
what else can he do? mutas suck vs ghosts?
Ling banelings vs tank + pf ROLF.
roach hydra? hahahahahahaha
what is left of Zerg can beat that army??? Infestor + Broodlords alone lose to 2 ability of ghosts (Snipe +EMP) People saying he bank 15k, but with only 5k gas how many time can you remax with a late game army??????
MVP have the same gas as him but lower minerals. he can still mine from 6 bases while nestea get drop and nuke everywhere.
Game is not fixed, people are completely stupid or try to be SMART ass when assume game was fixed.
I posted MVP's mass ghost style on strat forum much earlier and got banned by trolling, still this style of mass ghost Terran is unbeatable after having half of the map and make a strong tank line. KJI build <3
I don't think anything can accurately be deduced from that last blizzcon game besides the fact that half way through nestea fell apart and gave up what should have been a win. He didn't even need to get tier 3 units. All he needed to do was just keep attacking MVP's tank line relentlessly, over and over until it broke. He had 15k for god's sake T_T Eventually with that many resources the line in the middle will break and you will be able to overrun your opponent.
I hadn't really watched many of Nestea's games before the blizzcon final, but it is obvious that he is highly regarded as the best zerg, and I'm not going to disagree. But I was really disappointed with the blizzcon games I watched and I feel like he could have played that last game A LOT better. That's why i think its unfair to make any kind of balance judgement based on that game. It was like two different caliber players fighting against eachother.
Anyways, I appreciate the write up, but I don't think its fair to speculate on the OPness of ghosts based on that final blizzcon game. I like write-ups on tournaments better without balance discussion anyway
I didn't like how you were whinning about the blizzcon stream. While I agree that there should have been more streams, their space was definitely limited with that many people there, aisde from that they probably should have streamed the more interesting games but chose to stream the more important ones to provide coverage for all the players. They also released replays so I think the complain you made was a little overboard and childish, at the very least it sounded like it.
As for prize money, korean progamers have said it over and over again. They don't play for money, they play for pride. So regardless of whether or not they split the money as long as they win the trophy they really don't care.
Good article but i think the insertion of opinion regarding snipe being over powered deserves my opinion that it's not.
Also, when you say that Fungal Growth can be dodged, what do you mean? it's an instant cast with a pretty long range, so when you say it can be dodged, you're talking about fungal growthing an area out of range , and by the time the FG goes off, the army isn't there any more. That seems more like sloppy play than expert 'dodging'. Just my two pennies.
Also keep in mind PSI storm can do a maxiumum for 4350 damage for 75 energy and snipe can do a maximum of 45 damage for 25 energy.
EPT![[image loading]](/images/forum/wiki_icon.png){kind=icon}
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/blizzcon/mvpnesteamini.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/blizzcon/broodlords1.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/blizzcon/ghosts.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/blizzcon/broodlords2.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/blizzcon/broodlords3.jpg)
). Before I go into that game in detail, let's go through the next few important moments in Nestea vs MVP.![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/blizzcon/banenydus1.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/blizzcon/banenydus2.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/blizzcon/bizzarodrop.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/blizzcon/bizzarodrop2.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/blizzcon/mvpcenter.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/blizzcon/nesteabank.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/blizzcon/drop1.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/blizzcon/drop2.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/blizzcon/drop3.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/blizzcon/drop4.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/blizzcon/drop5.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/blizzcon/gratuitousnukeshot1.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/blizzcon/gratuitousnukeshot2.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/blizzcon/drop6.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/blizzcon/drop7.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/4/40/Snipe.png/61px-Snipe.png)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/blizzcon/mvpjuly.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/blizzcon/mvpjuly3.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/blizzcon/mvpjuly2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UkxHD.png)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/GSL/Oct11/blizzconcrowd.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/GSL/Oct11/mma.jpg)
