Banner by pachi, photos by skAnarky, screenshots from GSL Open Season 1
“Hivemind” Finals Preview
It is not surprising that Rainbow is a top SC2 player. A top-flight Starcraft: Brood War progamer, Rainbow was known for his immaculate reaver micro and interesting strategies. He was also known for his macro management deficiencies, a weakness masked greatly by Starcraft 2's improved UI. This was a player who beat Bisu in the Proleague Grand Finals. Rainbow was Boxer's teammate on SK Telecom, and played Protoss like Boxer would have.
Rainbow even chose Terran at the beginning of the SC2 Beta because he felt they were the most difficult, never knowing that they would become what many regarded as the strongest Starcraft 2 race. His play is creative, aggressive, and full of style. If things went a little differently, he'd be the most popular player in the SC2 scene right now.
But he's not, and for good reason.
Cool, also known as "Fruit Dealer," represents as the last hope for Zerg players and fans everywhere. As we watched more and more Zerg players crumble in each round of the GSL, Cool stood alone, a pillar of high level Zerg play. He is just so much better than the rest of his race. The lack of qualifying Zergs and the troubles they've had in this tournament has been well documented on our forums. Is Cool's success a reason for Blizzard to hold off on "fixing" the Zerg issue? Or is Fruit Dealer simply an anomaly among a mass of dwindling Zerg players all swimming upstream?
Everywhere you can see fans pulling for him. After all, he fights for everyone, against the "evil overpowered Terrans" and GSL's nightmare TvT Finals. Even Artosis and Tasteless could not help but smile giddily as he 6-pooled poor Inca. The sentiment among fans after Cool's all-in rush was not outrage, but relief. Cool the Brood War eStro progamer never achieved glory. But Cool the Starcraft 2 player, a Zerg player, could go all the way. In one Best-of-7, he can out earn his entire Brood War career and give hope to an entire race of players.
Our apologies, Rainbow. In any other situation you'd be the stylish hero that fangirls swoon over and fanboys marvel at. But everyone, save for a few die-hard Terran fans, are in the other camp. They cheer on a Zerg who became a symbol that game balance can be overcome by skill and style.
As some of you from the pre-Starcraft 2 days will remember, I am a big fan of looking at numbers. Unfortunately there isn't enough of that these days, and what is around is merely forum threads with incredibly lackluster presentation. With GSL running, now we have a real league to bring back that style of verbose stat-based prose.
With the finals coming soon, of course the most obvious statistic anyone wants to see is overall race matchup numbers. Here at TL we are dedicated to giving the people what they want. We even did one better and broke everything up by map, thanks to TLPD.
A picture is worth a thousand words. Although this one has about that many already included.
A few things are going on here. You can see that the tournament has been mostly PvT, followed by TvZ and ZvP (not shocking to anyone). You can tell that Zerg on the whole isn't doing great by ZvZ being a nearly non-existent matchup. However, its intriguing that TvZ has shaken down to even footing, ZvP shows the Zerg at a slight disadvantage.
I thought it would be interesting to take it a step further and look at how much a race is winning across both of its non-mirror matchups combined.
Shocking revelation: Terran is winning.
Now now, what do we have here? Looking at it this way, it seems like its not Zerg that is in trouble as a race, but Protoss. This probably isn't a fair representation of total racial strength though, Fruit Dealer has been tearing it up (11-1 going into the finals) despite all his overmind brethren being weeded out several stages earlier.
The natural question here is "What does it look like without Fruit Dealer?" Without him ZvT is 4-14 and ZvP is 9-15, a certainly noticeable difference. It seems unfair to exclude solely him if we're going to play that game though, as Rainbow (I'm refusing to aknowledge the existence of the ID HopeTorture) is doing just as well at 11-1. What about if we decide they're both outliers?
Ahhh, now that is an image more in line with popular opinion.
Interestingly, without those two Terran is somehow winning more. Intuitively, I feel like this is a lot more representative of the "true" winrates for each race across the tournament playing population, but one event really isn't enough to tell.
This certainly helps the "Terran too strong" bandwagon keep momentum, but overall its not significant enough to be evidence on its own. The PvT or TvZ numbers on their own look like a disaster, but I can't help but feel like while watching many of those games the Terrans playing were simply stronger players than their Zerg or Protoss opponents (this is particularly true with TvP). Even not including Rainbow or FruitD (FDealer? FD?) it could still be a case of Terran player quality simply being higher than Zergs or Protosses.
On the flip side, LiveForever making it as far as he did is perhaps evidence of a lesser player riding on the back of his race. We'll know better once Zergs start to emulate Fruit Dealer's style. It should make GSL Season 2 qualifiers very interesting in terms of race qualifying statistics.
Enjoy the finals!
Semifinals Recap
“You're the best, Cool. Nobody's ever done what you've done. Three Terrans and two Protoss in twenty-four days, sir, and you beat every one of them, no matter what they did to you."
Cool checks close position with a drone and hatches first. LiveForever goes fast reaper rax and gas before depot, but has to go cross map to harass. LF sends two SCVs to build bunkers, taking out a few drones and lings. One bunker gets up outside of range of the hatchery, and Cool momentarily stops the constructing bunker, but another SCV completes it. Cool's roaches and queen take out the bunker, but LF does take out the hatchery.
LF gets reaper speed and harass with 4 reapers, taking out some drones. He transitions into one hellion harass and then fast banshees with cloak, getting a CC while his cloak is researching. Cool's lair is barely finished when the banshee arrives in Cool's main, cloaking and getting 10 drone kills before an overseer finshes and queens take it out. LF's second banshee gets a few more kills but Cool kills it very quickly. Cool techs to muta and starts taking his third, while LF gets his expansion up and moves out with a multiple rax army. The MM army forces Cool to cancel, but Cool waits for the stim to run out and attacks with muta ling, submitting his pimpest play application by healing several mutas mid battle with queens that walked all the way over.
LF moves out with his second army, this time with thors, but Cool has too many muta ling baneling. Cool takes a fourth, but LF trades two DS of marines to kill it. LF drops Cool's main, but Cool handles it with minimal drone losses. LF takes his third, and pushes out with a huge marine medivac tank thor army. Cool's hive is done and he adds infestors to his army, slowing down the push with fungal.
Once Cool hatches 6 ultras, he attacks, and does a perfect fungal + baneling on LF's marines. The ultras clean up the thors and tanks and LF's huge shiny army is reduced to nothing. Cool finishes it by taking out LF's third with ultralisks while simulatenously nydusing lings into LF's main.
- Great opening harass by LF netted him dozens of drones, but Cool just absorbed the damage, recovering and managing LF's attacks perfectly. LF played well, but Cool played amazingly.
Cool opens roach before taking his expansion, LF opens hellion but has to run back to his main when he sees the roaches. LF bunkers up and runs his hellions past the roaches, getting quite a few drones before they die. LF techs to vikings and starts killing overlords as well, getting a CC in the process. Cool techs to mutas, getting a few SCVs at LF's natural and taking his own third.
LF moves out with marines tanks and a thor, breaking down the destructable rocks, but Cool backstabs with muta ling, forcing the army to come back. Cool adds infestors to his army. LF starts his attack again, but Cool backstabs a second time with roach ling, and when LF turns around to defend, Cool attacks with everything, a giant mass of lings, roaches, infestors, and banelings loaded into overlords. LF's push is badly crushed, and he has to GG.
- No scary moments for Cool like in game 1, but still showed off his excellent management and push-breaking micro. Amazing baneling drops to go with his flank on the Terran army.
Cool goes 1 base lair, getting a few roaches before spire. LF opens with a few hellions, but they are deflected easily by roaches. LF adds two more raxes, going 1-base MM. LF is a bit confused, constantly scouting the map for an expansion. Cool takes another main's natural while making mutas. LF moves out, while Cool brings his lings and roaches to the Terran main. The game becomes an elimination race, but LF's force dies to building broodlings and mutas due to the low health count from multiple stimpacks.
- Cool has a perfect record on the most anti-Zerg map out there. Excellent awareness and preparation.
CoolTSL - A+ What more can be said about this guy? But Rainbow is not LiveForever, so Cool better bring this sort of effort in finals.
NEXLiveForever - B- Everyone thought LF was outclassed in this matchup, and he just proved everyone right. Nice effort in game 1, but it just wasn't enough.
Cool vs LiveForever, told through pictures. This is Part 1.
Rainbow opens 1-rax expand, adding two more rax. Ensnare opens rax factory starport, attacking with his first 4 marines and a hellion, killing Rainbow's bunker before it completes and killing a ton of Rainbow's SCVs. Ensnare moves out with marines, a tank, and a medivac, and Rainbow is forced to pull SCVs again, chasing Ensnare all the way back to Ensnare's base. Rainbow's only infantry army is quickly becoming weaker as Ensnare stays on one base and gets siege mode and banshees. Ensnare leapfrogs his tanks forward, and Rainbow does not have enough to break the push.
- Nice, aggressive attack by Ensnare, with a bit of luck catching the bunker right before it completed.
Rainbow opens 1-rax expand again, and Ensnare opens blue flame hellion drop. Ensnare nets a good number of SCVs, but Rainbow's extra orbital allows him to stay ahead in economy. Rainbow adds more rax and techs to startport, while Ensnare opts for multiple factories. Ensnare attempts to drop Rainbow's cliff, but his medivac flies right over Rainbow's marines that were clearing out his gold base rocks.
Rainbow then puts on a multitasking clinic, simultaneously marine dropping Ensnare's natural and main. Ensnare cleans it up, but Rainbow has taken his third and fourth base. Ensnare takes his gold, but Rainbow attacks with marauders and tanks and kills a lot of tanks and SCVs. Rainbow takes a fifth base as well. Ensnare finally stabilizes, but Rainbow drops another 3 medivacs worth of infantry into Ensnare's natural. Ensnare eventually handles it, but it costs him many SCVs and buildings. By the time Ensnare stabilizes, the supplies are 150 to 90 and Rainbow just plows through Ensnare's front with marauder tank.
- Rainbow looked like the best player of the tournament in this game, as we've never seen a Terran of Ensnare's level get absolutely peeled apart in this way. Amazing multitask, strategy, and management from Rainbow.
Rainbow opens 1-rax expansion again. Ensnare opens rax-reactor and proxies a factory to produce a thor right next to Rainbow's natural. Ensnare pokes with marines, but Rainbow retreats to his bunker. Ensnare attacks with his thor, reparing SCVs, and marines, and Rainbow has to pull all his SCVs. Rainbow looks like he might die right here, but stimpack completes and 3 marauders pop out of Rainbow's barracks, and he's able to flank and kill the first thor right before the second thor arrived.
Rainbow kills the second thor and counters with his MM. Ensnare expanded behind this attack, but his bunker does not cover the ramp, and Rainbow stims and runs into Ensnare's main. Ensnare pulls SCVs, but Rainbow just has too many infantry units, and by the end of the attack the worker count is 30 to 10 in favor of Rainbow.
Rainbow low-to-high ground pushes with tanks, but Ensnare does a good job defending. However, Rainbow is very far ahead in income and unit count, and when Ensnare pushes out to take his gold, Rainbow flanks and crushes the army.
- Great defense by Rainbow to hold the thor attack. Also, excellent midgame control and decision making to hold his economic lead as well.
Rainbow opens the exact same build, while Ensnare opens rax factory starport as well. Ensnare decides to expand himself, making a banshee to harass as well. Ensnare drops some tanks on Rainbow's back natural ledge, denying one gas and several mineral patches. Both players take their golds. Ensnare catches the units at Rainbow's natural unsieged, and busts Rainbow's front, forcing his natural CC to lift. But Rainbow drops two medivacs worth of infantry in Ensnare's main, killing many SCVs and forcing half of Ensnare's army to come home. This allows Rainbow to engage what's left of Ensnare's army at Rainbow's front, giving him the lead and map control as well. One final double medivac drop by Rainbow ends the game.
- Excellent play by Rainbow, capitalizing on a few of Ensnare's errors. Rainbow's multitasking and dropship harass was just too good for Ensnare to deal with.
Rainbow - A+ Rainbow stuck to his 1-rax fast expand mass infantry build, a strategy that greatly emphasized his strengths: multitasking and medivac harass. After a brief stumble in game 1, he won the next three games easily.
oGsEnsnare - B- Ensnare looked dominant in his earlier round games, dictating play and engagements. But against Rainbow, he often seemed lost and a step behind.
Rainbow flanks Ensnare's thor with infantry and SCVs.
Throughout the series, Ensnare could not handle Rainbow's drops.
Next: Finals Recap and GSL Season 1 Awards
In less than a day, the first season of the GSL will officially conclude. We'll recap the Finals games and hand out awards for the best plays, moments, and players in the tournament.
Both series showed amazing play from Rainbow and Cool, their opponents not so much. I can't wait to see what these two amazing players can do to each other.
I honestly hope Cool wins this because he's shown the most creativity out of any player I've seen so far in SC2. Rainbow is solid, but his wow factor comes from drops, which are already super-popular due to Terran being the only race with powerful enough small units to use small drops to devastating effect.
On October 02 2010 10:25 deth2munkies wrote: I honestly hope Cool wins this because he's shown the most creativity out of any player I've seen so far in SC2. Rainbow is solid, but his wow factor comes from drops, which are already super-popular due to Terran being the only race with powerful enough small units to use small drops to devastating effect.
Statistics are pretty pointless because you could say we already know maka prime and ogs ensnare were very skilled players(outliers and already gonna win vs their opponent) thus thrashing all their WeRRa toss and NEX guys. Also no race is a perfect vehicle whereby they can express their skill. There's only so much one person can do with the race they've chosen. Innate skill level of hopetorture is higher thus hopetorture gonna win because he deserved it.
Likewise idra is b teamer thus remain b teamer forever?
I really hope both players bring their A game and play some epic epic games!!
I've always been a huge fan of ITR for his outstanding micro, especially with reavers and because he's a BW progamer, but as a zerg player i'm also pulling for Cool. Dun really mind who wins, I just want some sweet games! PLEASE
Wow Terran's been raping Protoss and been even vZ, odd. Then again I guess players like Cool and an overall lack of good protoss might skew the statistics.
Cool FTW. Need a Zerg to win a major tourney for once!
Arrr, arise from yer cucoons me hearties! Th' day we Zerg be risin' from the depths o' hell t' strike a mighty blow t' the heart o' the terran scum be soon. Ready yer O'erlords an' Nydas Worms an' prepare t' gi'e 'em such a beatin' th'll shat the'r pants at the sight o' a sin'le Zerglin', arrr!
...
*cough cough* ...ahem...
Anyways, i certainly hope blizzard doesn't take it the wrong way and say ZvT is balanced if Cool wins it... >.<
COOL HWAITING, I am hoping for a 4-2 or 4-3 for cool 4-1 for either side (or 4-0) would just be too boring. Also, having a zerg win would be awesome because Terran seemed too popular and overpowered at the moment.
Both players are amazing, and after all the ranting that fruitdealer did earlier, he seems to be playing spectacularly well. (It makes me wonder what level those practice partners of his must be if he was only averaging like 10% win rate against them!!!! )
I am really rooting for Cool to win this, even though Rainbow is an amazing terran, I just want to see Cool win, he seems to have really turned the whole dynamic of ZVT or ZVP on its head.
When I watched his games I didnt get the sense of a weak zerg or an under powered zerg, just a very "zergy" zerg. Especially after he had brought up his econ to be able to produce out of his hatchs.
Anyways for those of you who are like tl;dr : Cool is amazing.
Besides Tester, is there even another Korean Protoss who is on level with the best Western Protoss players? I honestly think Korean Protoss as a whole are a step below their Western counterparts, which explains the dismal showing at GSL1. I guess the question will be answered in GSL2 when HuK shows up.
I'm not sure you can claim imbalance by dismissing Cool from the statistics. That's like trying to prove that black people can't play golf and then when someone says 'what about Tiger Woods' you say he doesn't count because he's an outlier.
Obviously there are a lot of strong reasons to believe that Zerg is underpowered, but you can't just dismiss one player's results entirely from the equation. If one player is able to do well with Zerg then that has to be taken into account into any balance discussion.
On October 02 2010 11:42 Ocedic wrote: Besides Tester, is there even another Korean Protoss who is on level with the best Western Protoss players? I honestly think Korean Protoss as a whole are a step below their Western counterparts, which explains the dismal showing at GSL1. I guess the question will be answered in GSL2 when HuK shows up.
Huk lost to Artosis in the IEM, who wass eliminated in the Round of 64 in the GSL. The second place finisher Idra, also lost to a Mid-level Protoss in the Round of 32. Not direct evidence, but the results do provide some insight nonetheless.
Thing is, that same mid-level protoss went on to lose because of terrible, terrible force-field placement. There seems to be a very strong correlation between bad force-fields, and defeat in TvP in the GSL.
He wasn't at all better then Idra mechanically - Idra failing to scout 6 o'clock main for 15 minutes is what lost him the game.
I'm a random player and race pick toss or zerg if I have to. I am so torn here, I want Cool to win kinda, but man, it's Rainbow! he makes me all giddy inside. I voted Rainbow, Fruit in the recent poll, and I stick by that.
On October 02 2010 10:09 Hot_Bid wrote: But everyone, save for a few die-hard Terran fans, are in the other camp.
Hey, I've mained zerg sc: bw and currenlty main zerg sc2, and I'm rooting for Rainbow. I simply admire his play more than I do Cool's. That's not to say I don't appreciate Cool for the great player he is, I just prefer IntoTheRainbow.
I'm rooting for FruitDealer. Hell, I'd like it if he wins. But RainBOw's playstyle of insane drop harassments going on in several different areas just seems like it's going to hit FruitDealer where it hurts.
I am so pumped for this. 5am wakeup is totally worth it to cheer on one of the Zerg heroes. I'm hoping it's IdrA in a month that I am waking up early for!
Sorry for the noob question but ... how do I watch this? Am I able to, or did you have to purchase something to view the games?
Speaking of the games, I have no idea who to cheer for. Maybe I'll just view it unbiased and enjoy the game without cheering for one player over the other.
On October 02 2010 14:21 Moonloop wrote: Sorry for the noob question but ... how do I watch this? Am I able to, or did you have to purchase something to view the games?
Speaking of the games, I have no idea who to cheer for. Maybe I'll just view it unbiased and enjoy the game without cheering for one player over the other.
I believe there's a free live stream on gomtv.net, but the quality is kinda poor. Otherwise you can pay $20 there for access to the higher quality stream and all of the VODs.
You can also just wait for them to inevitably make their way to YouTube
On October 02 2010 14:21 Moonloop wrote: Sorry for the noob question but ... how do I watch this? Am I able to, or did you have to purchase something to view the games?
Speaking of the games, I have no idea who to cheer for. Maybe I'll just view it unbiased and enjoy the game without cheering for one player over the other.
I believe there's a free live stream on gomtv.net, but the quality is kinda poor. Otherwise you can pay $20 there for access to the higher quality stream and all of the VODs.
You can also just wait for them to inevitably make their way to YouTube
Ah, awesome. I'll check it out now - thanks.
I'll probably just view it in sub-par quality. Doesn't matter if I can't make out the shiny details, as long as I can see what's going on.
he PvT or TvZ numbers on their own look like a disaster, but I can't help but feel like while watching many of those games the Terrans playing were simply stronger players than their Zerg or Protoss opponents (this is particularly true with TvP)
This is simply a retarded statement. The truth of the matter is, the race mechanics of terran make its player seem better than they actually are. They have a hundred different bag of tricks which they are free to use even and more importantly are not all in. For instance here is a short list of things which I came up with
1) Reapers 2) Hellion drops 3) Floating factory threatening hellion drops with 3 rax pressure at ramp. 4) Stim marauder drops 5) Cloaked Banshees 6) Multiple pronged drops at main and expo 7) Battlecruiser timing all ins (doesnt take much skill, but looks awesome to spectate) 8) Raven timing all ins 9) Thor pushes with multiple scvs
Granted that these take a certain amount of skill to use, but honestly Toss dont have these gimmicks which makes their play seem very passive and defensive and not "skilled". The few gimmicks that they have are all by default all in, with very little room for failure. If a P does a void ray opening or DT opening, and it doesnt go well, he has basically lost the game right there. A T has bazillion more options, and the Toss is FORCED to go down the robot tech route just to scout and play reactively to these options.
TLDR: Terrans are not magically more skilled than toss - the variety of strategies in their playbook forces toss to play ultra defensive with robot openings and also they suffer from a lack of flashy, low cost harassing capabilities which makes their game look "low-skilled".
TLDR: Terrans are not magically more skilled than toss - the variety of strategies in their playbook forces toss to play ultra defensive with robot openings and also they suffer from a lack of flashy, low cost harassing capabilities which makes their game look "low-skilled".
Yeah like 4 warp gate? Real defensive opening right there :x
I disagree with just about everything you said. Terran don't have any gimmicks, and that's ALL toss has. If you scout my base and I'm playing T, guess what, I'm building an army and it's going to be either mech, bio, or a mix. whoopdeedoo.
However, as toss, it's pretty normal to proxy some building, or hid some critical tech structure, just so later you can go "hah, i got you, you didn't have X" x being detection, or anti-air or something stupid. that's what a gimmick is, and toss are the kings.
I've been cheering for Rainbow since this whole thing began and we found out he was in the tourney. He's honestly the most talented SC2 player I've seen, he's on a whole other level from these other competitors.
He's been dismissed as being a micro-only player by many others "all he's GOT is micro!" - Idra
but in his wins over Ensnare, he literally couldn't have used a strategy that was any more macro oriented (no gas, rax, straight into expansion command center with protective bunker).
It's nice that everyone's talking up fruit dealer, but that's all anyone is doing. I'd like to see more stuff on rainbow. It'd be worth a read since all we're seeing from various sites atm is the same perspective: "look at fruit dealer. He's in the finals and.. hes ZERG!" Don't get me wrong, hes a great player and its pretty cool (pun intended) but when it comes down to the finals a preview should really showcase the players and what they're like rather than being a blurb on race choice.
On October 02 2010 11:42 Ocedic wrote: Besides Tester, is there even another Korean Protoss who is on level with the best Western Protoss players? I honestly think Korean Protoss as a whole are a step below their Western counterparts, which explains the dismal showing at GSL1. I guess the question will be answered in GSL2 when HuK shows up.
Huk lost to Artosis in the IEM, who wass eliminated in the Round of 64 in the GSL. The second place finisher Idra, also lost to a Mid-level Protoss in the Round of 32. Not direct evidence, but the results do provide some insight nonetheless.
Huk would be the first to say himself that he played like ass at IEM in his first major online tourney. Also, he's a very new new new pro gamer and he has learned a TON since then. If you're going to discuss his IEM results then it's only fair to include his MLG results, a more recent event that he had the previous lan's experience from to draw on where he placed first. He has great work ethic and dedication, always focusing on getting better, the kind of attitude more people need to adopt if they want to improve. I personally am very excited to see how huk does in the GSL.
On October 02 2010 11:42 Ocedic wrote: Besides Tester, is there even another Korean Protoss who is on level with the best Western Protoss players? I honestly think Korean Protoss as a whole are a step below their Western counterparts, which explains the dismal showing at GSL1. I guess the question will be answered in GSL2 when HuK shows up.
oGs Inca - don't let his loss to Cool fool you, he's just right behind Tester in a lot of ways.
I missed ITR's ro64 match-up because I didn't realize he was ITR. But when I saw him play in the ro32, he instantly became my favorite for the tournament. In spite of minor mistakes, everything about his play feels rock solid, zero holes. Tastosis kept talking about his BW reputation, and I myself had been judging him according to his play in King of the Beta, but all that has to be forgotten. His play this tournament has been as consistent as it has been varied. I couldn't believe how easy he made his games against Check and Tester look (two other players who I have been really impressed with). I would not be surprised if he dominates Fruit Dealer.
However, after the semi-finals, I have come around to Fruit Dealer. I was unsure about him because of his all-ins (I was not a fan of the 6-pool D: ), but his games against LiveForever convinced me that he is as solid a Zerg as can be played right now. I do not know if he is good enough to take out ITR, but this is going to be an awesome finals match. ^_^
I don't much like the talk of "balance" in the OP and think it is wrong to pull stats to measure balance from this tournament. I also think it is bm to say that some players got as far as they did in the tournament on the strengths of their race alone. While the mechanics of Zerg are not as smooth as Terran or Protoss, good play is good play regardless of race. Watching ITR, Tester, or Fruit Dealer, one can easily see that they understand SC and their race better than the majority of their opponents. Let's leave wins and losses according to the merits of the players and circumstances of the game (as in Idra getting beaten by a lesser opponent due to critical, circumstantial mistakes) rather than to something as complex and obscure as "balance".
Finally, my thoughts on the balance issue in relation to the finals: I feel like Terran is the most strategically "developed" race so far, and that Terran players have experimented with and learned their possibilities better than the other races. Zerg feels like the least developed, probably because of imperfect game mechanics and because Zerg is harder to play (from an apm standpoint, they take longer to learn and perfect). That said, I feel I finally caught a glimpse of Zerg's true power in Fruit Dealer's semi finals -- he seems to be one of the few to be playing Zerg the way they are "supposed to be played." Fruit Dealer really understands Z's advantages -- mobility and macro -- and knows how to abuse them. LiveForever looked nearly helpless in his matches. Poor guy.
Anyway, a little over an hour left. :D Not rooting for either player, as both are amazing and the better player will win. Right now, I think ITR has the advantage, but it would please me if Fruit Dealer proved me wrong. ^^
So now it's getting hard to read just the features on TL because of the asinine balance whining. BARRRFFFFFF give it up already jesus christ. (I play random btw and am very happy with the balance of the game, AND I'm rooting for Cool because he is so boss). It's completely amateur to base racial balance on results from one tournament, worse than Blizzard saying the game is balanced by virtue of ladder stats.
I really like both players, and will be happy whatever the outcome (as long as the matches are good), but I must say that I'm rooting for Cool... even though I'm a Terran player myself. >_>
If he were against oGs Top or Inca or someone, I'd be all for Cool. He's been one of my favourite players in the tournament, and I've been hoping for him to get this far the whole time(from the beginning of the round of 64 on). But that whole time, I've been wanting IntoTheRainbow to win. In fact, all month, I've been predicting ITR>Cool for the final. So, Cool, I love you, and you've done a brilliant job representing Zerg(which I play, for the record). Regardless, I'm betting on ITR for the final.
TLDR: Terrans are not magically more skilled than toss - the variety of strategies in their playbook forces toss to play ultra defensive with robot openings and also they suffer from a lack of flashy, low cost harassing capabilities which makes their game look "low-skilled".
Yeah like 4 warp gate? Real defensive opening right there :x
I disagree with just about everything you said. Terran don't have any gimmicks, and that's ALL toss has. If you scout my base and I'm playing T, guess what, I'm building an army and it's going to be either mech, bio, or a mix. whoopdeedoo.
However, as toss, it's pretty normal to proxy some building, or hid some critical tech structure, just so later you can go "hah, i got you, you didn't have X" x being detection, or anti-air or something stupid. that's what a gimmick is, and toss are the kings.
4 Gate perhaps works against terran at your silver level play. Have fun being in silver.
Seriously, I wrote an entire page and all you could say was lolol 4 warpgate and lolol proxy tech.
he PvT or TvZ numbers on their own look like a disaster, but I can't help but feel like while watching many of those games the Terrans playing were simply stronger players than their Zerg or Protoss opponents (this is particularly true with TvP)
This is simply a retarded statement. The truth of the matter is, the race mechanics of terran make its player seem better than they actually are. They have a hundred different bag of tricks which they are free to use even and more importantly are not all in. For instance here is a short list of things which I came up with
1) Reapers 2) Hellion drops 3) Floating factory threatening hellion drops with 3 rax pressure at ramp. 4) Stim marauder drops 5) Cloaked Banshees 6) Multiple pronged drops at main and expo 7) Battlecruiser timing all ins (doesnt take much skill, but looks awesome to spectate) 8) Raven timing all ins 9) Thor pushes with multiple scvs
Granted that these take a certain amount of skill to use, but honestly Toss dont have these gimmicks which makes their play seem very passive and defensive and not "skilled". The few gimmicks that they have are all by default all in, with very little room for failure. If a P does a void ray opening or DT opening, and it doesnt go well, he has basically lost the game right there. A T has bazillion more options, and the Toss is FORCED to go down the robot tech route just to scout and play reactively to these options.
TLDR: Terrans are not magically more skilled than toss - the variety of strategies in their playbook forces toss to play ultra defensive with robot openings and also they suffer from a lack of flashy, low cost harassing capabilities which makes their game look "low-skilled".
I was thinking specifically of the number of gross micro mistakes I saw in games than anything, had nothing to do with anything racially based.
he PvT or TvZ numbers on their own look like a disaster, but I can't help but feel like while watching many of those games the Terrans playing were simply stronger players than their Zerg or Protoss opponents (this is particularly true with TvP)
This is simply a retarded statement. The truth of the matter is, the race mechanics of terran make its player seem better than they actually are. They have a hundred different bag of tricks which they are free to use even and more importantly are not all in. For instance here is a short list of things which I came up with
1) Reapers 2) Hellion drops 3) Floating factory threatening hellion drops with 3 rax pressure at ramp. 4) Stim marauder drops 5) Cloaked Banshees 6) Multiple pronged drops at main and expo 7) Battlecruiser timing all ins (doesnt take much skill, but looks awesome to spectate) 8) Raven timing all ins 9) Thor pushes with multiple scvs
Granted that these take a certain amount of skill to use, but honestly Toss dont have these gimmicks which makes their play seem very passive and defensive and not "skilled". The few gimmicks that they have are all by default all in, with very little room for failure. If a P does a void ray opening or DT opening, and it doesnt go well, he has basically lost the game right there. A T has bazillion more options, and the Toss is FORCED to go down the robot tech route just to scout and play reactively to these options.
TLDR: Terrans are not magically more skilled than toss - the variety of strategies in their playbook forces toss to play ultra defensive with robot openings and also they suffer from a lack of flashy, low cost harassing capabilities which makes their game look "low-skilled".
I was thinking specifically of the number of gross micro mistakes I saw in games than anything, had nothing to do with anything racially based.
I really agree with you here. In most TvPz, I did not see a really good P. Appart for inca and tester, mot P in GSL were good, but far from top players.
On October 02 2010 15:52 Sideburn wrote: A little embarrassing that an interesting article was so marred by extremely biased balance talk that was little more than thinly veiled whining.
On October 02 2010 11:42 Ocedic wrote: Besides Tester, is there even another Korean Protoss who is on level with the best Western Protoss players? I honestly think Korean Protoss as a whole are a step below their Western counterparts, which explains the dismal showing at GSL1. I guess the question will be answered in GSL2 when HuK shows up.
Huk lost to Artosis in the IEM, who wass eliminated in the Round of 64 in the GSL. The second place finisher Idra, also lost to a Mid-level Protoss in the Round of 32. Not direct evidence, but the results do provide some insight nonetheless.
Huk would be the first to say himself that he played like ass at IEM in his first major online tourney. Also, he's a very new new new pro gamer and he has learned a TON since then. If you're going to discuss his IEM results then it's only fair to include his MLG results, a more recent event that he had the previous lan's experience from to draw on where he placed first. He has great work ethic and dedication, always focusing on getting better, the kind of attitude more people need to adopt if they want to improve. I personally am very excited to see how huk does in the GSL.
He also lost pretty bad to Morrow in a showmatch, where it seemed like Morrow was just a huge step ahead. HuK played very well the first game, and it was down hill from there. GSL2 skill wise is gonna be a huge step. Im rooting for Huk to do well, but I'm afraid the foreigners is yet again a dieing breed being internally laughed at by koreans.
I pray that I am wrong, but reality says otherwise
Big fan of Zerg play here, think Terarn is imba against Zerg too.
And I'm pulling for ITR, he's just a boss, sorry but this whole everyone supporting Cool thing out of no where just seems like a fad. I've liked ITR since the King of the Beta and while I think Cool's play is stellar and very fun to watch, I'm not going to get swept up in a fad, most the people cheering for him now won't care in a month or two.
People still slightly overdo the SC2 comparisons based on BW. Time passes, skills develop differently etc. Anyway, my bets are on Won-Ki for this match.
I really think both players are very high level, that final is so hard to predict I'm sick just by trying. I hope (and think) that these games will be awesome.
If cool has mentally prepared for this, I think he can do it. But if he thinks of the first price, or his parents have put too much pressure on him (or fans), I think his nervousness will be in for a quick and brutal loss.
guys, need desperate help! after a month of watching GOMtv, now it says "We cannot find your email. Please re-enter it." I can't log in ... Anyone can help? Again, I logged in without a problem since the beggining of GSL
On October 02 2010 18:08 Kamate wrote: guys, need desperate help! after a month of watching GOMtv, now it says "We cannot find your email. Please re-enter it." I can't log in ... Anyone can help? Again, I logged in without a problem since the beggining of GSL
On October 02 2010 18:08 Kamate wrote: guys, need desperate help! after a month of watching GOMtv, now it says "We cannot find your email. Please re-enter it." I can't log in ... Anyone can help? Again, I logged in without a problem since the beggining of GSL
i logged in fine no problem hope yours get fixed soon.
This is fantastic. I overpay for crappy quality videos and streams and crappy quality now turns into nothing at all on the day of the finals. I couldn't be happier with gomtv right now.
Me too, finally got to log in , but " We apologize for your inconvenience. Currently, simultaneous connection limit has exceeded. Please try to access Live shows after a moment." Really? I mean.... REALLY?
I may be wrong. Either Roffles switched or hasn't switched back from the Korean stream because I opened TUski's stream and Tasteless and Artosis are back.
Gomtv needs help I think, not only are they not accepting my paypal for some reason so I can support them, I log in at 5:10am here 10 min after they start, and their stream is full, I thought they want to show supporters and investers how popular their stream is but if people cant watch it from the legit source then they will go to non legit sources for the stream. I dont know where any are at this time and wouldn't do this anyway but I can see how some people would do this. I really want to watch these finals and want to buy a season ticket so I can watch replays I missed and get more information from ones I did but It isnt accepting any credit card I try. Has anyone else had these problems with gomtv? Sorry for the rant, but I really enjoy watching their product but kinda upset that they dont quite have the support for people who want to watch their product to do so.
On October 02 2010 19:13 Onegu wrote: Gomtv needs help I think, not only are they not accepting my paypal for some reason so I can support them, I log in at 5:10am here 10 min after they start, and their stream is full, I thought they want to show supporters and investers how popular their stream is but if people cant watch it from the legit source then they will go to non legit sources for the stream. I dont know where any are at this time and wouldn't do this anyway but I can see how some people would do this. I really want to watch these finals and want to buy a season ticket so I can watch replays I missed and get more information from ones I did but It isnt accepting any credit card I try. Has anyone else had these problems with gomtv? Sorry for the rant, but I really enjoy watching their product but kinda upset that they dont quite have the support for people who want to watch their product to do so.
You gotta buy ure ticket before the game starts. Seems like a pretty logical setup, if they allowed people to buy a ticket after the show starts people could complain with things like "I was meaning to buy a ticket for the next day's show, why would I pay to watch a game that's already in-progress" thus causing more problems.
The stream is full because its the grand finals and people all over the world are tuning in, if anything this shows "investors and supporters" how popular this really is.
Not to mention if "supporters and investors" are actually serious they would have shelled out the $1.95 for a ticket or the $20 for a season ticket as that's really not much money at all for the hours and weeks of entertainment. Cheaper than a movie ya know
I feel your pain for not being able to tune in, but it isn't GOMTV's fault that you dropped the ball, they're doing an amazing job.
On October 02 2010 18:53 Xeteh wrote: I may be wrong. Either Roffles switched or hasn't switched back from the Korean stream because I opened TUski's stream and Tasteless and Artosis are back.
I am really thankful for Rofflez stream, and that he streams with korean commentators. I cant stand Tasteless another second, especially when he on top of all things, show up sick and still talks alot.
Also korean have emotions, that is all I need to be hyped!
Every zerg player now has a new hero in Fruitseller. Maybe Blizzard was right? Maybe we just need to all play like fruitseller for the game to be balanced. Is he getting lucky? Or am I seeing these games correctly? Pretty crazy what he has been doing this tournament.
fruit pwn!@#$ so awesome amazing play since game 1 everygame he was doing everything right countering everything anything like crazy and omg the only win terran has was desert oasis but fruit destroyed him in that too
The stream is full because its the grand finals and people all over the world are tuning in, if anything this shows "investors and supporters" how popular this really is.
Not to mention if "supporters and investors" are actually serious they would have shelled out the $1.95 for a ticket or the $20 for a season ticket as that's really not much money at all for the hours and weeks of entertainment. Cheaper than a movie ya know
I feel your pain for not being able to tune in, but it isn't GOMTV's fault that you dropped the ball, they're doing an amazing job.
Actually the stream has been full almost everyday since the Ro32. It starts 11 am for me and if I'm lucky I don't have class and can watch from the beginning. Unlucky? 20 minutes late and can't watch at all.
Other than that I can agree on GOMTV doing a good job.
Im not talking about buying the high quality stream I am talking about buying the VODs. Still they need better tech support, investors want to see real numbers. Luckily right after I posted I saw some people on team liquid were showing the finals here and I got to see the end of game 2 and the rest of the games and will be able to see game one Vod, But still dont understand why they arent accepting my CC when I am not having problems using it anywhere else. And I saw one stream here on TL had almost 10000 viewers and another almost 7000, these are people who cant get into the live stream on Gomtv. I want this to be everything the gaming world needs it to be but if people are seeing these numbers because of a tech problem then that is a big deal. Also people not being about to buy the product to support it is another huge deal. My friend just told me he is haveing the same problem being able to purchase the year subscription.
PS I not only tried to buy the year subscription today, but also 2 days ago after the stream was already over.
Here are the results of all the games they played with a few key moments I still remember a few hours later:
First game (Delta Quadrant): They spawn far away from each others. FruidDealer expands quite fast while Rainbow is in turtle mode, probably to use a similar 3 bases timing push to the one he used to destroy CheckPrime. His main problem this game was to be unable to damage even a bit FruitDealer's economy. His hellion gets damaged right outside his own ramp, some mutas luckily intercept a drop aiming for an expand, FruitDealer's economy gets way out of control. When Rainbows decides to go out, zerg's already on 5 bases (Main, natural, gold and the 2 other mains on both sides) ... Terran decides to try to snipe a hatchery sending all his marines while the bulk of his army (thors and tanks) stays in center near the xel naga tower but FruitDealer saves it with banelings and infestators. A few moments later the rest dies to a well mixed zerg army led by ultralisks. Our terran manages to get a counter attack and to destroy the gold, but at the cost of his main. GG, 1-0.
Lost Temple: Felt very similar to that first game. FruitDealer did an even better job with his mutas tho, not to damage Rainbow's economy but to intercept anything he'd throw at him and to contain him. GG, 2-0.
Kulas Ravine: An interresting build from FruitDealer, getting roaches and then taking the gold as his first expand. He built some spine crawlers in the minerals and defended the other side of the high ground with the roaches. Rainbow came with a tank drop anyway but had to delay it quite a bit to take care of the overlord giving vision the the spine crawlers and roaches. And when he finally does, at the same time a nydus worm opens in his main damaging him a lot. GG, 3-0.
Desert Oasis: Rainbow opened with mass marines followed by thors, a blind counter to mutas (his opponent likes them and Desert Oasis a very good map for those). But FruitDealer blindly countered his blind counter by going banelings + infestators, not building a single muta during the all game. His first push with marines was an epic fail and a few moments later he's left on 2 bases with almost no SCVs while the zerg is on like 5 or 6 bases. He did have some forces left, a few thors and tanks, but facing a zerg with such an economy it looked over. How he managed to come back from this, I still don't really understand but it was amazing. Even tho I was rooting for FruitDealer, this game won by Rainbow was (to me) the best of the finals. GG, 3-1.
Scrap Station: Rainbow opens with a proxy reaper while FruitDealer goes hatchery first. He had to defend with drones but once the first zerglings and queen got out he was able to avoid getting hit too hard. And a few moments later he pushed all the way back to Rainbow's main with roaches, even managing to destroy a barrack walling the ramp (a marauder and a bunker made it hard for Rainbow to repair it) and to get in the main to kill some SCVs. Being unable to take his natural Rainbow went for this island and when the mutas came he already had a few turrets and a thor here. However, FruitDealer droped a sizeable army of banelings and zerglings and Rainbow had to load his medivacs with marines to clean the mess. The fun part is he trapped himself that way, as the mutas made sure he wasn't able to leave this expand (being unable to load the marines back into the medivacs). And then came the final push from FruitDealer. GG, 4-1.
ps: Hope it's readable, as I'm not a native English speaker. Did my best.
Here are the results of all the games they played with a few key moments I still remember a few hours later:
First game (Delta Quadrant): They spawn far away from each others. FruidDealer expands quite fast while Rainbow is in turtle mode, probably to use a similar 3 bases timing push to the one he used to destroy CheckPrime. His main problem this game was to be unable to damage even a bit FruitDealer's economy. His hellion gets damaged right outside his own ramp, some mutas luckily intercept a drop aiming for an expand, FruitDealer's economy gets way out of control. When Rainbows decides to go out, zerg's already on 5 bases (Main, natural, gold and the 2 other mains on both sides) ... Terran decides to try to snipe a hatchery sending all his marines while the bulk of his army (thors and tanks) stays in center near the xel naga tower but FruitDealer saves it with banelings and infestators. A few moments later the rest dies to a well mixed zerg army led by ultralisks. Our terran manages to get a counter attack and to destroy the gold, but at the cost of his main. GG, 1-0.
Lost Temple: Felt very similar to that first game. FruitDealer did an even better job with his mutas tho, not to damage Rainbow's economy but to intercept anything he'd throw at him and to contain him. GG, 2-0.
Kulas Ravine: An interresting build from FruitDealer, getting roaches and then taking the gold as his first expand. He built some spine crawlers in the minerals and defended the other side of the high ground with the roaches. Rainbow came with a tank drop anyway but had to delay it quite a bit to take care of the overlord giving vision the the spine crawlers and roaches. And when he finally does, at the same time a nydus worm opens in his main damaging him a lot. GG, 3-0.
Desert Oasis: Rainbow opened with mass marines followed by thors, a blind counter to mutas (his opponent likes them and Desert Oasis a very good map for those). But FruitDealer blindly countered his blind counter by going banelings + infestators, not building a single muta during the all game. His first push with marines was an epic fail and a few moments later he's left on 2 bases with almost no SCVs while the zerg is on like 5 or 6 bases. He did have some forces left, a few thors and tanks, but facing a zerg with such an economy it looked over. How he managed to come back from this, I still don't really understand but it was amazing. Even tho I was rooting for FruitDealer, this game won by Rainbow was (to me) the best of the finals. GG, 3-1.
Scrap Station: Rainbow opens with a proxy reaper while FruitDealer goes hatchery first. He had to defend with drones but once the first zerglings and queen got out he was able to avoid getting hit too hard. And a few moments later he pushed all the way back to Rainbow's main with roaches, even managing to destroy a barrack walling the ramp (a marauder and a bunker made it hard for Rainbow to repair it) and to get in the main to kill some SCVs. Being unable to take his natural Rainbow went for this island and when the mutas came he already had a few turrets and a thor here. However, FruitDealer droped a sizeable army of banelings and zerglings and Rainbow had to load his medivacs with marines to clean the mess. The fun part is he trapped himself that way, as the mutas made sure he wasn't able to leave this expand (being unable to load the marines back into the medivacs). And then came the final push from FruitDealer. GG, 4-1.
ps: Hope it's readable, as I'm not a native English speaker. Did my best.
the zerg wasn't on 5 or 6 bases, he was on 3 base and terran was at 3 but got down to 2 because once fruitdealer got his gold for like 3 minutes hope torture pushed while getting his own gold and took down fruits gold but right after that fruit got another base but then natural got destroyed and etc.. so actually the terran has more income than fruit for the later part of the game thus leading to mass reinforcement and then gg
just saying for all the people who flood forums about imbalance, it is obvious to me that Fruit Dealer is a Savior of sorts *Pre Scandal* and was the revolution that zerg needed. Not saying it isnt completely balanced, but most of the people who complain just need to practice more and stop making excuses for themselves. Nice job fruit =)
I hope that after Zerg is going to take GSL2 and that no protoss is going to make it to the semi once again, people will stop denying the real balance of the game.
On October 03 2010 05:42 Craixs wrote: Lol it is not fair to just take out cool in the racial statistisks then take out some other players to make it look good lol
It makes perfect sense to remove the top two players from the statistics. In theory, you'd have to remove the bottom two as well, but you can't do that for an elimination tournament.
On October 04 2010 13:04 Wayra wrote: too much racial balance talk...can't you just write about the games?
I agree, it sounds like the writer is clearly a jaedong/fruit fan, not saying im not but i believe the game is nearly balanced. I feel like half the reason people claim OP is because they have hopped on the idra band wagon for making excuses of why they r losing. Also in his game against silver on lost temple i think it is just retarded to say imbalance on a map like that, the ledge on that map near the natural expansions have always been abused by players, either by cannon cliffing or lurk/tank drops. So it should just be expected, i mean wasnt that the whole reason people changed from LT to Luna anyway?
there is no "fruitDealer style" of Z. He clearly gambled on adjusting his builds to his opponents by good preparation, you can't do that on ladder. A lot of his openings would have been crushed if his opponents where somewhat unpredictable.
On October 04 2010 13:04 Wayra wrote: too much racial balance talk...can't you just write about the games?
I could have done that, but ignoring one of the larger storylines of the finals is a disservice to fans. Whether or not the game is balanced can be argued, but I believe pretending the discussion doesn't exist is irresponsible.
There's a serious problem with this in one way. It overlaps two patches.
It would be interesting (although not necessarily accurate due to a smaller playerbase/number of games) to do pre-patch vs post-patch statistics. Because some games were played after the changes, overall statistics don't help much when the patch(es) changed things by buffing/nerfing various units. (Also Desert Oasis even though it was only played 4 times).
GSL2 will be more accurate assuming there are no more balance patches mid-way through competition.
(On the patch changing things, one example would by AugustWeRRa's rush to BCs. Not quite so viable post-BC nerf).
How to proof Zerg is UP: First you wanna take a look at an important tournament. All matchups except PvT seem to be pretty fine. And after all T OP, Z fine and P UP. Hmm didnt work. Nevermind, lets just remove the best T and best Z. Hey P is fine and Z UP. Well done. One might argue that there wasnt a dominating P that was worth remove. But, maybe Toss is just to UP for a P to do well.
I do not want to say Zerg is fine or Protoss UP. (T is OP tho :/ ) However you cant just leave two players out and then judge the outcome.
I liked his look at the numbers even if they aren't statistically significant yet. I am going to come right out and say that I believe Terran is overpowered at the pro level, but that isn't based on hard data. That is more of an opinion than anything else. Time will tell.
In any case, math is sort of what I do for a living (statistics). I would say that the main thing one can take from the tournament is that the game's balance isn't too bad at the pro level. The main reason I say this is that outliers such as Cool exist at all. Unless his skill is just far and away better than everyone else (hard to judge this, of course), his 11-1 record could be showing that the game is not so unbalanced that it cannot be overcome with skill. If the numbers eventually prove the alleged Terran imba, blizzard will obviously need to do something. Forcing one race to have more skill to be on an even footing with another would not be a fair situation when $$$ is on the line.
Back in War3 days, there was a time when a properly played NE literally could not lose to Orc, no matter how good they were. We don't have that situation here, and kudos to Blizzard for arriving at such a balanced state so quickly.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Hot_Bid/GSL/gsl_banner_mod.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Hot_Bid/GSL/coolvsrainbow.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Hot_Bid/GSL/Coolapple.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/heyoka/gsl/gsl1mu.png)
![[image loading]](/staff/heyoka/gsl/gsl1race.png)
![[image loading]](/staff/heyoka/gsl/gsl1mufix.png)
![[image loading]](/staff/heyoka/gsl/gsl1racefix.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Zicon_small.png)
CoolTSL < 3-0 > ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Ticon_small.png)
NEXLiveForever - ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/images/blackstar.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/images/blackstarhalf.gif)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Hot_Bid/GSL/SFCool0.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Hot_Bid/GSL/SFCool2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Hot_Bid/GSL/SFCool3.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Hot_Bid/GSL/SFCool4.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Hot_Bid/GSL/SFRainbow1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Hot_Bid/GSL/SFRainbow2.jpg)
Perfect final^^ couldnt have chosen any other final players that would be more exciting than this.
4-1 for either side (or 4-0) would just be too boring. Also, having a zerg win would be awesome because Terran seemed too popular and overpowered at the moment.
