The TSL Qualifiers are just around the corner. Come Saturday, results and replays will be blazing across the front page for you all to gawk at. Due to the sheer number of games and the immense organizational task the Qualifiers impose on us, we will only be broadcasting a select few replays via Day[9]'s livestream.
However, we still want to hear what YOU have to say about the games, so, we invite you all to participate in the PokerStrategy.com TSL Commentary Contest!
Contest Details
We are going to be releasing all of the replays from the qualifiers held this weekend (including those casted by day). You may pick any replay from the pack and do a commentary for it. You are allowed to submit one entry for the contest! So make sure you pick the perfect game to complement your Brood War knowledge and one with plenty of action!
UPDATE: lot's of people have been asking if dual commentaries are allowed. Yes, they are allowed - but you'll have to split the prize between you!
Deadline for submission is the 17th of January at 23:59 KST
There will be a new thread once the qualifiers are over where you will be able to submit your commentaries which will include the rules for the contest.
Once all the submissions are in, everyone will vote on the commentaries. Anyone with a non-banned TL.net account with 10 posts or more is eligible to vote. Got two TL.net accounts with over 10 posts? Don't bother trying to vote twice, we know how to catch you! More information about the voting process will be released closer to the time.
Prizes
Winner may choose: $100 USD or a Hwaseung Oz Jacket
Want this jacket? Just win the contest!
Runner-up may choose: $50 USD or a Hwaseung Oz Shirt
This shirt could be yours!
Many thanks to lilsusie for making the Hwaseung swag happen! For regular orders you can check out her thread here - preorders have started!. The winners will be announced on air during the first TSL Ro16 broadcast.
Best of luck everyone!
How to make VODs
These guides are brought to you by Diggity and Moletrap.
How to make commentary on a PC:
How to make commentary replays on a Mac:
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On January 08 2010 06:28 motbob wrote: I am going to win this contest. + Show Spoiler +
I am going to try my best to win this contest.
EDIT: oh god husky is doing this I am not going to win this contest
There are plenty of people out there who despise my style.
Was just talking to my SC friends about how much I wanted that jacket but cannot afford it. Even the shirt is completely badass.
This contest is epic.
Ha thats funny yesterday was the first time I saw a commentary of yours. There were certain things I liked and some I didn't, if you want I could pm you about it but I dont wanna stop you from doing your thing =)
Anyways back to topic, maybe I'll have a try at it, I got good micros to do it at least har. I'll probably suck but itll be fun anyways. thank you for doing this, awesome idea TL (Though I hope noone from sc2gg will be like "hey fuckers you stole our idea")
Great news for all those commentators doing it for the community on youtube. But honestly, it's most likely just going to be alot of fanboyism for their favorite commentator.
Personally I love cholera / rise when they were more active, and lately husky has provided with some great commentary. Entertainment counts more than actual knowlege in the end, and there are few out there that can combine knowledge with entertainment. Day9 <3
On January 08 2010 07:01 rafaliusz wrote: native english speakers have an unfair advantage
True but this is an english-speaking site so I think it's only fair :p
Only reason I would do this would be if I was familiar enough with contemporary commentators that I could actually imitate all of them for a semi-entertaining mimicry.
On January 08 2010 07:05 PokePill wrote: Are parodies/satire eligible?
Anything is eligible.
The purpose of this contest is not just to give $100 to whoever gets the most votes but also to entertain the community too. So be as creative as you want!
On January 08 2010 06:48 Diggity wrote: Would it be unfair to enter?
Of course not! Why would it be unfair?
Contest is open to anyone, aside from the four TSL commentators.
Diggity means that since has been commentating for a long time and has amassed a large fanbase during that span, it would be unfair for someone with his experience to enter this contest which is primarily directed at "amateurs." To give an example, it would not be fair for estro_sea.really to play in TSL since his superior terran skills would destroy the competitive spirit of the tournament.
I personally vote no since Diggity is already leaps and bounds ahead of any English commentator out there today (yes that includes tasteless and day9), though that is only my humble opinion. Nonetheless good luck Diggity and looking forward to your MSL commentaries!
User was banned for trolling (alternate account of TL regular).
On January 08 2010 07:14 Trozz wrote: A contest you say? This sounds like a lot of fun. I just might compete.
;D
AHHH Fuck. Why you Trozz, why you? Why YOU?
Anyways, I'm certainly all for Diggity. I don't see why anyone should be excluded from this aside from the four actually commentating. The more the merrier, as we get to see everyone's commentating and personalities come out.
On January 08 2010 06:48 Diggity wrote: Would it be unfair to enter?
Of course not! Why would it be unfair?
Contest is open to anyone, aside from the four TSL commentators.
Diggity means that since has been commentating for a long time and has amassed a large fanbase during that span, it would be unfair for someone with his experience to enter this contest which is primarily directed at "amateurs." To give an example, it would not be fair for estro_sea.really to play in TSL since his superior terran skills would destroy the competitive spirit of the tournament.
I personally vote no since Diggity is already leaps and bounds ahead of any English commentator out there today (yes that includes tasteless and day9), though that is only my humble opinion. Nonetheless good luck Diggity and looking forward to your MSL commentaries!
You can feel free to vote for Diggity if/when he enters then
Not sure how everyone thinks that day9 commentating is good. His tips might be good but the way he comments is utterly unprofessional, ie. making fun of players, making rude and cruel jokes, bashing them, turning camera in the middle to feature his face, offering biased viewpoints, blah blah. Jeez, can't stand it.
For example, Olympics games's commentators are very professional, offering unbiased views, and never do any of such childish acts.
Another example is that when Tasteless and/or Artosis were commentating GOMTV games, they were very professional. Imagine if they make childish jokes, they would never get hired in the first place.
On January 08 2010 07:22 Crt wrote: Not sure how everyone thinks that day9 commentating is good. His tips might be good but the way he comments is utterly unprofessional, ie. keep on making fun of players, make rude and cruel jokes, bashing them, turning camera in the middle to feature his face, biased viewpoints, blah blah. Jeez, can't stand it.
For example, Olympics games's commentators are very professional, offering unbiased views, and never do any of such childish acts.
Another example is that when Tasteless and/or Artosis were commentating GOMTV games, they were very professional. Imagine if they make childish jokes, they would never get hired in the first place.
He's entertaining. Isn't that the number one thing that casual viewers like us want? He might not be professional, but he makes good points on stream, is helpful, and is a pleasure to watch day in and day out.
On January 08 2010 07:22 Crt wrote: Not sure how everyone thinks that day9 commentating is good. His tips might be good but the way he comments is utterly unprofessional, ie. making fun of players, making rude and cruel jokes, bashing them, turning camera in the middle to feature his face, offering biased viewpoints, blah blah. Jeez, can't stand it.
For example, Olympics games's commentators are very professional, offering unbiased views, and never do any of such childish acts.
Another example is that when Tasteless and/or Artosis were commentating GOMTV games, they were very professional. Imagine if they make childish jokes, they would never get hired in the first place.
He can turn on and off the professionalism as needed. I doubt he's only capable of casting when making random references to bear semen.
On January 08 2010 07:22 Crt wrote: Not sure how everyone thinks that day9 commentating is good. His tips might be good but the way he comments is utterly unprofessional, ie. making fun of players, making rude and cruel jokes, bashing them, turning camera in the middle to feature his face, offering biased viewpoints, blah blah. Jeez, can't stand it.
For example, Olympics games's commentators are very professional, offering unbiased views, and never do any of such childish acts.
Another example is that when Tasteless and/or Artosis were commentating GOMTV games, they were very professional. Imagine if they make childish jokes, they would never get hired in the first place.
Tasteless made jokes about monkey breast milk, i doubt that's "professional" in your view, but it is entertaining, and the rest is informative, putting day 9 and tasteless leagues ahead of most commentators out there.
also why shouldn't diggity be able to join, he isn't a tsl commentator and his commentary might be one i'd like to listen to.
On January 08 2010 07:22 Crt wrote: Not sure how everyone thinks that day9 commentating is good. His tips might be good but the way he comments is utterly unprofessional, ie. making fun of players, making rude and cruel jokes, bashing them, turning camera in the middle to feature his face, offering biased viewpoints, blah blah. Jeez, can't stand it.
For example, Olympics games's commentators are very professional, offering unbiased views, and never do any of such childish acts.
Another example is that when Tasteless and/or Artosis were commentating GOMTV games, they were very professional. Imagine if they make childish jokes, they would never get hired in the first place.
A non-professional commentator doing a non-professional program in a non-professional fashion? THIS IS AN OUTRAGE.
Also, I'm not sure if you've ever listened to a GOMTV game casted by Tasteless. Your claim that he never makes "childish jokes" makes me think you haven't.
I know that the Iccup forums is filled with "skilless fucking newbies" but I made this thread about a month ago. It's about favorite amateur commentator.
On January 08 2010 07:22 Crt wrote: Not sure how everyone thinks that day9 commentating is good. His tips might be good but the way he comments is utterly unprofessional, ie. making fun of players, making rude and cruel jokes, bashing them, turning camera in the middle to feature his face, offering biased viewpoints, blah blah. Jeez, can't stand it.
There have been a good number of Collegiate Starleague casters, but Day9 is one of the few commentators who can acknowledge the amateur level of gameplay and then continue to respectfully commentate a game. I'd say that he's the most professional caster out there because of his ability to get people to enjoy the game at the most basic level, rather than bashing on tiny mistakes that Korean progamers would never make.
If I weren't so bad at SC I would take up commentating again -_- blahh
Why is it that every time someone drops the word "commentator" a bunch of 5-post people crawl out of the woodwork to profess their love for Diggity/Moletrap/Klazart and the likes and compare them to awesome casters like Day[9]. -_-
On January 08 2010 07:50 foeffa wrote: Why is it that every time someone drops the word "commentator" a bunch of 5-post people crawl out of the woodwork to profess their love for Diggity/Moletrap/Klazart and the likes and compare them to awesome casters like Day[9]. -_-
On January 08 2010 07:50 foeffa wrote: Why is it that every time someone drops the word "commentator" a bunch of 5-post people crawl out of the woodwork to profess their love for Diggity/Moletrap/Klazart and the likes and compare them to awesome casters like Day[9]. -_-
I have 4999 posts, can I like Cholera/Diggity? Because, I do.
On January 08 2010 07:50 foeffa wrote: Why is it that every time someone drops the word "commentator" a bunch of 5-post people crawl out of the woodwork to profess their love for Diggity/Moletrap/Klazart and the likes and compare them to awesome casters like Day[9]. -_-
because they are the best around? Don't like Klazart personally but Diggity/Moletrap are the absolute best at what they do.
On January 08 2010 07:50 foeffa wrote: Why is it that every time someone drops the word "commentator" a bunch of 5-post people crawl out of the woodwork to profess their love for Diggity/Moletrap/Klazart and the likes and compare them to awesome casters like Day[9]. -_-
because they are the best around? Don't like Klazart personally but Diggity/Moletrap are the absolute best at what they do.
LOL I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE
Anyways, looking forward to this. Good luck all participants.
On January 08 2010 07:50 foeffa wrote: Why is it that every time someone drops the word "commentator" a bunch of 5-post people crawl out of the woodwork to profess their love for Diggity/Moletrap/Klazart and the likes and compare them to awesome casters like Day[9]. -_-
because they are the best around? Don't like Klazart personally but Diggity/Moletrap are the absolute best at what they do.
You say that with such confidence.. I can't help but like those guys (diggity, moletrap, etc), but a person like Day9 who is witty, a great speaker, strategically way beyond Moletrap & friends (because he actually plays the game at a high level).. how do you beat the perfect combo? You don't, unless your audience doesn't know the game well enough to tell good analysis from mediocre insight..
On January 08 2010 07:50 foeffa wrote: Why is it that every time someone drops the word "commentator" a bunch of 5-post people crawl out of the woodwork to profess their love for Diggity/Moletrap/Klazart and the likes and compare them to awesome casters like Day[9]. -_-
because they are the best around? Don't like Klazart personally but Diggity/Moletrap are the absolute best at what they do.
On January 08 2010 07:50 foeffa wrote: Why is it that every time someone drops the word "commentator" a bunch of 5-post people crawl out of the woodwork to profess their love for Diggity/Moletrap/Klazart and the likes and compare them to awesome casters like Day[9]. -_-
because they are the best around? Don't like Klazart personally but Diggity/Moletrap are the absolute best at what they do.
You say that with such confidence.. I can't help but like those guys (diggity, moletrap, etc), but a person like Day9 who is witty, a great speaker, strategically way beyond Moletrap & friends (because he actually plays the game at a high level).. how do you beat the perfect combo? You don't, unless your audience doesn't know the game well enough to tell good analysis from mediocre insight..
What does playing the game at a high level have to do with anything? They're commentating starcraft, not playing it. All you need for a great commentary is a nice voice and positive energy. Diggity has both. Sure he may not be the highest ranked ICCUP player but he can still understand 90% of what goes on in a progaming match just from having so much experience, reading forums and thinking about strategical issues.
On January 08 2010 07:50 foeffa wrote: Why is it that every time someone drops the word "commentator" a bunch of 5-post people crawl out of the woodwork to profess their love for Diggity/Moletrap/Klazart and the likes and compare them to awesome casters like Day[9]. -_-
Easy: because they constantly introduce a lot of new people to the game, who would never pick up on following korean starcraft if it was only accessible to them with korean casting. (and Day[9] has only started commentating as of late as far as i know.)
On January 08 2010 07:50 foeffa wrote: Why is it that every time someone drops the word "commentator" a bunch of 5-post people crawl out of the woodwork to profess their love for Diggity/Moletrap/Klazart and the likes and compare them to awesome casters like Day[9]. -_-
because they are the best around? Don't like Klazart personally but Diggity/Moletrap are the absolute best at what they do.
You say that with such confidence.. I can't help but like those guys (diggity, moletrap, etc), but a person like Day9 who is witty, a great speaker, strategically way beyond Moletrap & friends (because he actually plays the game at a high level).. how do you beat the perfect combo? You don't, unless your audience doesn't know the game well enough to tell good analysis from mediocre insight..
What does playing the game at a high level have to do with anything? They're commentating starcraft, not playing it. All you need for a great commentary is a nice voice and positive energy. Diggity has both. Sure he may not be the highest ranked ICCUP player but he can still understand 90% of what goes on in a progaming match just from having so much experience, reading forums and thinking about strategical issues.
I like Diggity and Moletrap a lot, but I don't see how anyone reasonable can say that they understand what's going on even half as well as Day[9] does.
On January 08 2010 07:50 foeffa wrote: Why is it that every time someone drops the word "commentator" a bunch of 5-post people crawl out of the woodwork to profess their love for Diggity/Moletrap/Klazart and the likes and compare them to awesome casters like Day[9]. -_-
because they are the best around? Don't like Klazart personally but Diggity/Moletrap are the absolute best at what they do.
You say that with such confidence.. I can't help but like those guys (diggity, moletrap, etc), but a person like Day9 who is witty, a great speaker, strategically way beyond Moletrap & friends (because he actually plays the game at a high level).. how do you beat the perfect combo? You don't, unless your audience doesn't know the game well enough to tell good analysis from mediocre insight..
What does playing the game at a high level have to do with anything? They're commentating starcraft, not playing it. All you need for a great commentary is a nice voice and positive energy. Diggity has both. Sure he may not be the highest ranked ICCUP player but he can still understand 90% of what goes on in a progaming match just from having so much experience, reading forums and thinking about strategical issues.
I like Diggity and Moletrap a lot, but I don't see how anyone reasonable can say that they understand what's going on even half as well as Day[9] does.
Day's analysis is simply on another level.
Yeah, but Moletrap/Diggity mostly do play by play. Isn't there a difference? No, they dont massive amounts of A level knowledge like Day, but they are pretty damn good at talking about the game as opposed to analyzation.
On January 08 2010 07:50 foeffa wrote: Why is it that every time someone drops the word "commentator" a bunch of 5-post people crawl out of the woodwork to profess their love for Diggity/Moletrap/Klazart and the likes and compare them to awesome casters like Day[9]. -_-
On January 08 2010 07:50 foeffa wrote: Why is it that every time someone drops the word "commentator" a bunch of 5-post people crawl out of the woodwork to profess their love for Diggity/Moletrap/Klazart and the likes and compare them to awesome casters like Day[9]. -_-
because they are the best around? Don't like Klazart personally but Diggity/Moletrap are the absolute best at what they do.
You say that with such confidence.. I can't help but like those guys (diggity, moletrap, etc), but a person like Day9 who is witty, a great speaker, strategically way beyond Moletrap & friends (because he actually plays the game at a high level).. how do you beat the perfect combo? You don't, unless your audience doesn't know the game well enough to tell good analysis from mediocre insight..
What does playing the game at a high level have to do with anything? They're commentating starcraft, not playing it. All you need for a great commentary is a nice voice and positive energy. Diggity has both. Sure he may not be the highest ranked ICCUP player but he can still understand 90% of what goes on in a progaming match just from having so much experience, reading forums and thinking about strategical issues.
It's tough to talk about those "90%" since you just pulled that number out of your ass but the fact is that commentators like day9 and artosis add SO much more strategical depth to their commentaries and people like diggity and moletrap often dont even just lack the strategical depth but simply say things that are wrong. I still like them.. well maybe not moletrap but I like diggity and cholera in terms of voice and speaking skills, and I think the fact that they do what they do is great because it brings more people to starcraft, hell I'm probably one of them, but it's just frustrating when they say things that are wrong or make it sound like they dont know anything about the game. Anyways we dont need another sc2gg discussion thread and I'm sorry for derailing, it's just.. when somebody talks about how they are miles ahead of someone like day9 thats just.. ugh.. (I bet the guy who said day9 is horribly unprofessional was a combat-ex fan)
I hope that when diggity and others enter they dont automatically get the win cause their famous, would seem wrong to not allow them to participate though.
Wohoo! This is going to be fun. I'm actually decent at talking, but have very shallow knowledge of Starcraft, I'm participating just for the lulz anyway=).
I find most casting like listening to football on the radio, lots of excitement and play by play reporting but that's about it. And given that I watch vods rather than listen to them I don't really need that. If something is exciting I'll get excited without someone telling me to. If something happens on screen I'll see it for myself. Because of this I never really got into casting. I can appreciate that they're good at what they're doing but it's just not for me. Whereas Day9 is interesting because he breaks shit down. He combines all the passion and fluidity of other commentators with the knowledge of the metagame and ability to explain it. That's way more interesting for me.
I suspect it's just a personal preference issue though.
i would really like if this event would bring back Cholera. Klazart doesnt have a chanse, there' s a huge anti-fan club of him here around TL. Diggity should take it.
And those who say the sc2gg casters are better than the professional ones, just don't know what are they talking about. I love all of them, but it's just stupid to compare a ~ B iccup ranked (or even former WCG USA winners) professional/experienced caster with those who do this just for fun and arent very good at starcraft.
On January 08 2010 07:22 Crt wrote: Not sure how everyone thinks that day9 commentating is good. His tips might be good but the way he comments is utterly unprofessional, ie. making fun of players, making rude and cruel jokes, bashing them, turning camera in the middle to feature his face, offering biased viewpoints, blah blah. Jeez, can't stand it.
For example, Olympics games's commentators are very professional, offering unbiased views, and never do any of such childish acts.
Another example is that when Tasteless and/or Artosis were commentating GOMTV games, they were very professional. Imagine if they make childish jokes, they would never get hired in the first place.
But that's what we like about Day[9] I don't watch SC with commentary to hear professionalism it's to be entertained and sometimes learn some stuff with which Day[9] does a superb job.
On January 08 2010 07:50 foeffa wrote: Why is it that every time someone drops the word "commentator" a bunch of 5-post people crawl out of the woodwork to profess their love for Diggity/Moletrap/Klazart and the likes and compare them to awesome casters like Day[9]. -_-
because they are the best around? Don't like Klazart personally but Diggity/Moletrap are the absolute best at what they do.
You say that with such confidence.. I can't help but like those guys (diggity, moletrap, etc), but a person like Day9 who is witty, a great speaker, strategically way beyond Moletrap & friends (because he actually plays the game at a high level).. how do you beat the perfect combo? You don't, unless your audience doesn't know the game well enough to tell good analysis from mediocre insight..
What does playing the game at a high level have to do with anything? They're commentating starcraft, not playing it. All you need for a great commentary is a nice voice and positive energy. Diggity has both. Sure he may not be the highest ranked ICCUP player but he can still understand 90% of what goes on in a progaming match just from having so much experience, reading forums and thinking about strategical issues.
Yes they know what's going on but who couldn't say 'we have some vultures moving over to 9 o clock those will likely be trying to harass the protoss' economy by killing some probes' but with Day[9] you'd hear something more along the lines of 'now here we see Hiya's vultures going to 9 o clock and as you can see on the minimap the mines here are not only to hold back the protoss from reaching the vultures but also are in a premium position for him to take a 4th base behind them etc. etc. etc.'
It's just so much more in depth and as opposed to saying just what's happening he can explain why it's happening and what they intend to do because of it. I feel like I worded this horribly but what I'm basically trying to say is it's just so much more in depth.
Although I have a snowball`s chance in hell of winning this contest, I am going to try and participate regardless. I have always wanted to try my hand in commentating and contests such as this are a perfect chance.
Established commentators will certainly have an advantage. Not just from the point of experience, but also due to their established fanbases (see "Klazart Authonomy controversy" for reference). Still, knowing Diggity, he will produce a commentary that can win the contest on it`s own merit just fine.
I still dislike the entire "this commentator is better than that commentator" discussion.
It is an opinion and like all opinions it is exposed to a variety of factors that generate bias.
To flush this out a bit, the core bias I see on a regular basis is the player versus the spectator. If you play a ton of starcraft you usually don't view the games to be entertained. You view the games to copy builds and improve your play. For these viewers Day9 is by far the best caster since he is casting from an entirely technical perspective. I would expect the majority of active TL users to prefer day9 since they are looking for ways to improve their game.
The spectator on the other hand generally isn't interested in technical details. Spectators are more interested in whether or not Flash will beat Jaedong or if Boxer will ever return to a finals match.
In principle its the same reason I want G5 to win the TSL. G5 is a friend (how can I not root for a friend) G5 is American (so I am GO USA) G5 is awesome (how can you not root for an awesome guy).
There is nothing morally reprehensible about rooting for someone else, you will just be wrong. Also oranges are way better than bananas.
On January 08 2010 09:35 Diggity wrote: [edit for some spelling right quick]
I still dislike the entire "this commentator is better than that commentator" discussion.
It is an opinion and like all opinions it is exposed to a variety of factors that generate bias.
To flush this out a bit, the core bias I see on a regular basis is the player versus the spectator. If you play a ton of starcraft you usually don't view the games to be entertained. You view the games to copy builds and improve your play. For these viewers Day9 is by far the best caster since he is casting from an entirely technical perspective. I would expect the majority of active TL users to prefer day9 since they are looking for ways to improve their game.
The spectator on the other hand generally isn't interested in technical details. Spectators are more interested in whether or not Flash will beat Jaedong or if Boxer will ever return to a finals match.
In principle its the same reason I want G5 to win the TSL. G5 is a friend (how can I not root for a friend) G5 is American (so I am GO USA) G5 is awesome (how can you not root for an awesome guy).
There is nothing morally reprehensible about rooting for someone else, you will just be wrong. Also oranges are way better than bananas.
Hmm, I think there are plenty of people on TL don't play SC (anymore). For example I pretty much stopped playing SC years ago and even when I played I never played really competitively. And I still prefer technical commentaries by far.
Diggity is saying his audience is mostly people who watch starcraft for fun instead of watching to improve and learn all the technical details, which I agree. Day9 is ok but he doesn't provide the positive energy Diggity does and gets lost too much in the technical details. Most of Diggity's audience couldn't care less about the difference between a 6 pool and a 8 pool, they watch starcraft for the excitement and spectacle. If you wanna know if Savior 8 pooled or not watch Day9, sorry to repeat but I feel most people aren't aware of the difference between the two group.
On January 08 2010 10:01 jkim89 wrote: Diggity is saying his audience is mostly people who watch starcraft for fun instead of watching to improve and learn all the technical details, which I agree. Day9 is ok but he doesn't provide the positive energy Diggity does
COMPLETELY DISAGREE. How can you possibly not agree with me about the fact that Day[9] has more positive energy than you can imagine?
and gets lost too much in the technical details.
Getting lost because you don't understand it at all isn't the same as the commentator doing something wrong which Day does not.
Most of Diggity's audience couldn't care less about the difference between a 6 pool and a 8 pool, they watch starcraft for the excitement and spectacle.
Complete exaggeration... do you even watch starcraft?
If you wanna know if Savior 8 pooled or not watch Day9, sorry to repeat but I feel most people aren't aware of the difference between the two group.
On January 08 2010 09:35 Diggity wrote: [edit for some spelling right quick] ...For these viewers Day9 is by far the best caster since he is casting from an entirely technical perspective...
take it back! day9 is also entertaining as fuck.. throwing in asides and giggling like a little bitch when a "bzillion" probes go down,.. I don't know how many actual commentaries you've seen of day9.. don't confuse them with his 'Day9 Daylies' (or whatever he calls them). His commentary is just superior. The only thing that can tip the balance any other way is 'style'. If you find his rants/voice/jokes annoying then it's totally fine to prefer someone else. I'm telling people how they are allowed to think now.. lol.. awesome
So as voters, we're going to have to watch the same games over and over and over again just to vote on some commentaries? lol... I don't think anyone that's not already a non-TL caster will will.
I dont see why people are turning this into a discussion on who the best commentator is. Vote for the one you like. It is your own personal opinion, you aren't going to convince someone who likes Commentator A to like Commentator B more.
Anyone who contributes to the SC community is a good thing imo.
Amen Husky!! That's why you're the best commentator! I'm sorry, I just couldn't help it. Bottom line - this brilliant commentary contest ensures that we all get to be entertained by a variety of great commentators. A sincere thanks to everyone who participates!
On January 08 2010 11:06 HuskyTheHusky wrote: I dont see why people are turning this into a discussion on who the best commentator is. Vote for the one you like. It is your own personal opinion, you aren't going to convince someone who likes Commentator A to like Commentator B more.
Anyone who contributes to the SC community is a good thing imo.
+1
Yeah, that's I think what Diggity meant. People like different stuff. Don't trip out so much if someone else likes something else... everyone is always going to have their own set of preferences and you telling them they're wrong isn't going to change how they feel, so there's no point.
To each his own.. even if they are an orange-sucking n00b.
On January 08 2010 10:01 jkim89 wrote: Diggity is saying his audience is mostly people who watch starcraft for fun instead of watching to improve and learn all the technical details, which I agree. Day9 is ok but he doesn't provide the positive energy Diggity does and gets lost too much in the technical details. Most of Diggity's audience couldn't care less about the difference between a 6 pool and a 8 pool, they watch starcraft for the excitement and spectacle. If you wanna know if Savior 8 pooled or not watch Day9, sorry to repeat but I feel most people aren't aware of the difference between the two group.
Have you ever seen any commentating he's done?
On January 08 2010 11:14 404.TooEz wrote: Is dual commentary allowed lululu? Obviously not like two prizes for both but jw
On January 08 2010 07:01 rafaliusz wrote: native english speakers have an unfair advantage
True but this is an english-speaking site so I think it's only fair :p
Only reason I would do this would be if I was familiar enough with contemporary commentators that I could actually imitate all of them for a semi-entertaining mimicry.
While the contest is a good idea, I feel that people are going to end up voting on name recognition than on actual quality. If there was a way to force them to watch all of the commentaries before voting... I might even consider coming up with something myself.
On January 08 2010 11:40 pewny wrote: If my voice didn't sound lika an six-year old girl's voice I would totally commentate
That is all the more reason to do it imo.
I agree, do it!
On January 08 2010 11:58 Caznode wrote: While the contest is a good idea, I feel that people are going to end up voting on name recognition than on actual quality. If there was a way to force them to watch all of the commentaries before voting... I might even consider coming up with something myself.
I also think this'll happen... Although because they've spent so much effort they definitely deserve the fanbases they have I guess
On January 08 2010 10:01 jkim89 wrote: Diggity is saying his audience is mostly people who watch starcraft for fun instead of watching to improve and learn all the technical details, which I agree. Day9 is ok but he doesn't provide the positive energy Diggity does and gets lost too much in the technical details. Most of Diggity's audience couldn't care less about the difference between a 6 pool and a 8 pool, they watch starcraft for the excitement and spectacle. If you wanna know if Savior 8 pooled or not watch Day9, sorry to repeat but I feel most people aren't aware of the difference between the two group.
Hope they cover a lot of the upcoming games, so every game of the tsl has commentaries good luck to every one, personally I'm rooting for HUSKY! but GL HF TO EVERYONE!!
Day9 isn't just vastly better from a technical perspective than SC2GG commentators, he's a lot more funny/engaging also. He's simply the best.
Cholera might be comparable in terms of being entertaining, and Diggity might compare in a technical sense. A dual commentary with those two might compare somewhat favorably with Day's stuff.
On January 08 2010 13:09 Imagist wrote: I may submit an entry, though I have to admit, this thread doesn't give me much hope for even getting constructive feedback out of it.
Don't worry!
There will be feedback, and people will definitely listen to your commentary.
On January 08 2010 13:09 Imagist wrote: I may submit an entry, though I have to admit, this thread doesn't give me much hope for even getting constructive feedback out of it.
Don't worry!
There will be feedback, and people will definitely listen to your commentary.
I'm sure of both of those, it was the "constructive" part I was emphasizing in my previous comment. While all the opinions put forward about commentators in this thread are valid (as subective opinions, of which I have more than a few), most of them are also dismaying and something of a put-off.
On January 08 2010 13:04 LunarDestiny wrote: Damn, this contest is becoming a popularity contest...
Yeah I gotta admit, the idea is great and all but anybody who is already a commentator basically will win simply from all the fanboy votes. The voting system doesn't really seem fair, since whatever husky or some other commentator will throw out will get voted for.
Then again I don't know and can't think of another voting system that would be more even.
On January 08 2010 13:04 LunarDestiny wrote: Damn, this contest is becoming a popularity contest...
Yeah I gotta admit, the idea is great and all but anybody who is already a commentator basically will win simply from all the fanboy votes. The voting system doesn't really seem fair, since whatever husky or some other commentator will throw out will get voted for.
Then again I don't know and can't think of another voting system that would be more even.
Just thought I would mention this.
We can... do what the SC2GG commentator idol did... 50% from TL user votes and 50% from the "appointed judges"
I don't know why people say the SC2GG commentators have no game knowledge, the only mistakes I've heard are in very early Klazart commentaries.
Like, multiple youtube commentators were able to see that Stork was going carriers against Flash from the cybernetics core spinning, and the Korean commentators still screamed when they saw the fleet beacon.
After hardcore lurking in these forums for several months I'm now crazy sad I haven't been posting this whole time. I have no doubt my comentary would suck but it would be really fun to try... I might just do it even if I'm not eligible to recieve votes.
Is there any chance that reading 10k+ posts will get me in?
On January 08 2010 13:04 LunarDestiny wrote: Damn, this contest is becoming a popularity contest...
Yeah I gotta admit, the idea is great and all but anybody who is already a commentator basically will win simply from all the fanboy votes. The voting system doesn't really seem fair, since whatever husky or some other commentator will throw out will get voted for.
Then again I don't know and can't think of another voting system that would be more even.
Just thought I would mention this.
hopefully it doesnt come to that... from what i've seen/read, i think it won't come to that, but i guess you can never be too sure
On January 08 2010 16:16 CakeOrI)eath wrote: After hardcore lurking in these forums for several months I'm now crazy sad I haven't been posting this whole time. I have no doubt my comentary would suck but it would be really fun to try... I might just do it even if I'm not eligible to recieve votes.
Is there any chance that reading 10k+ posts will get me in?
You don't have to have 10 posts to enter just 10 posts to cast a vote!
On January 08 2010 07:22 Crt wrote: Not sure how everyone thinks that day9 commentating is good. His tips might be good but the way he comments is utterly unprofessional, ie. making fun of players, making rude and cruel jokes, bashing them, turning camera in the middle to feature his face, offering biased viewpoints, blah blah. Jeez, can't stand it.
For example, Olympics games's commentators are very professional, offering unbiased views, and never do any of such childish acts.
Another example is that when Tasteless and/or Artosis were commentating GOMTV games, they were very professional. Imagine if they make childish jokes, they would never get hired in the first place.
If I can get past my idiocy at technology I will certainly give this a shot! I've been looking for a reason to commentate games and my playing activity+watching pro games obsessively should help.
As for the popularity contest drama; Day[9], tasteless, diggity and moletrap and all the other commentators have completely different styles. They are all very entertaining to listen to on different levels, and based solely on that fact all you really need to do is appeal to an audience; realizing that your audience is a strategy loving data hoarding group of people is key to winning this contest!
I got to know about teamliquid from the 'youtube' commentators, so thats one convert for you. Just wondering, does Day9 have a youtube account? Or are there any other ways to view his commentaries other than livestream? Interested in listening to a different commentator style.
sweet i doubt i will win but now i can attempt to show off my day9 levels of replay analysis! unfortunately i don't have a mic, so i will be commentating through the speaker in my webcam that i use for skype
On January 08 2010 09:35 Diggity wrote: [edit for some spelling right quick]
I still dislike the entire "this commentator is better than that commentator" discussion.
It is an opinion and like all opinions it is exposed to a variety of factors that generate bias.
To flush this out a bit, the core bias I see on a regular basis is the player versus the spectator. If you play a ton of starcraft you usually don't view the games to be entertained. You view the games to copy builds and improve your play. For these viewers Day9 is by far the best caster since he is casting from an entirely technical perspective. I would expect the majority of active TL users to prefer day9 since they are looking for ways to improve their game.
The spectator on the other hand generally isn't interested in technical details. Spectators are more interested in whether or not Flash will beat Jaedong or if Boxer will ever return to a finals match.
In principle its the same reason I want G5 to win the TSL. G5 is a friend (how can I not root for a friend) G5 is American (so I am GO USA) G5 is awesome (how can you not root for an awesome guy).
There is nothing morally reprehensible about rooting for someone else, you will just be wrong. Also oranges are way better than bananas.
I really really doubt that there's many people on TL who watch korean VODs to copy build orders. That's what replays are for. I'm pretty sure that most people on TL, including me, watch VODs largely just for entertainment, but it's simply more interesting and entertaining when the commentator tells you something you didnt know already. Like when day9 tells you how player x did this certain thing amazingly well and if he hadnt said that you wouldnt even have noticed since you dont have that much starcraft knowledge. Whereas other commentators just point out whats painfully obvious.
Example: Flash vs Calm game 3, when Flash did an eraser with two science vessels on calms 3o clock day9 mentioned how he did it by putting both vessels on patrol so he can go back to his army/base or whatever. I thought that was a great idea and it was just fun to realise this. (I never play Terran, so I definitely wont implement it into my play) I hadnt noticed it when I watched the game the first time, and apparently neither did you, moletrap definitely didn't as he just said that "Flash didn't get as many drones as he wanted to" in your dual commentary
On January 08 2010 16:16 CakeOrI)eath wrote: After hardcore lurking in these forums for several months I'm now crazy sad I haven't been posting this whole time. I have no doubt my comentary would suck but it would be really fun to try... I might just do it even if I'm not eligible to recieve votes.
Is there any chance that reading 10k+ posts will get me in?
On January 08 2010 16:16 CakeOrI)eath wrote: After hardcore lurking in these forums for several months I'm now crazy sad I haven't been posting this whole time. I have no doubt my comentary would suck but it would be really fun to try... I might just do it even if I'm not eligible to recieve votes.
Is there any chance that reading 10k+ posts will get me in?
You could just make 5 more posts and be fine
I thought the 10 post minimum is only for getting to vote, not for entering the contest anyways? So he doesn't even need 5 more posts
On January 08 2010 16:16 CakeOrI)eath wrote: After hardcore lurking in these forums for several months I'm now crazy sad I haven't been posting this whole time. I have no doubt my comentary would suck but it would be really fun to try... I might just do it even if I'm not eligible to recieve votes.
Is there any chance that reading 10k+ posts will get me in?
You could just make 5 more posts and be fine
I thought the 10 post minimum is only for getting to vote, not for entering the contest anyways? So he doesn't even need 5 more posts
On January 08 2010 23:20 7mk wrote:Example: Flash vs Calm game 3, when Flash did an eraser with two science vessels on calms 3o clock day9 mentioned how he did it by putting both vessels on patrol so he can go back to his army/base or whatever. I thought that was a great idea and it was just fun to realise this. (I never play Terran, so I definitely wont implement it into my play)
I am sorry, but that was a very bad example. Namely beacuse that was easy to figure out just by seeing the fact that the Science Vessels were moving back and forth in an empty expansion. Day[9] was merely stating the obvious.
Also, while Day[9] is a brilliant commentator who`s game knowledge and witty humour is unsurpassed, his Dailies are not really commentaries. They are more of a post-game analysis, where he takes the liberty to forward and rewind the video as he pleases. As such, he has much more freedom in terms of noticing the intricacies of the game then someone who has to commentate the game as it is running.
Is Day[9] still the better commentator? Yes. Would he still notice some of the minor details even if it was a normal commentary? Yes. But the example you provided hardly highlights this.
On January 09 2010 01:15 Ignorant prodigy wrote: IMO the 10 post rule should be changed.. It should only restrict people who have become members after this contest was announced...
How about this:
Let's argue about this for a page or 2 and you'll be all set.
On January 09 2010 01:15 Ignorant prodigy wrote: IMO the 10 post rule should be changed.. It should only restrict people who have become members after this contest was announced...
How about this:
Let's argue about this for a page or 2 and you'll be all set.
Hope NukeTheStars enters this competition - I really like his commentating. He doesn't only do playbyplay which is awesome, he's extremely skilled when it comes to hype videos as well!
I'm sure this will be TLDR so I will bold the highlights
Also, while Day[9] is a brilliant commentator who`s game knowledge and witty humour is unsurpassed, his Dailies are not really commentaries. They are more of a post-game analysis, where he takes the liberty to forward and rewind the video as he pleases. As such, he has much more freedom in terms of noticing the intricacies of the game then someone who has to commentate the game as it is running
I would call it a technical commentary. It is still there for entertainment. It is still a commentary. Its not weaker or stronger than any other type of commentary it just appeals to different people. Phreak of Warcraft 3, for example, does a more technical style of commentary as well.
Day9 is great at this since he definitely has way more technical knowledge than the rest of us AND he is extremely good at conveying the information. I am not sure people really appreciate this as much as they should.
I think a lot of people make the mistake of thinking that tons of knowledge = good commentator. Its the same mistake as brilliant scientist = great professor. Most of the time when you find people at that level, they have invested so much in their expertise that they fail to develop accompanying communication skills. Perhaps that is why there are so many emotionally underdeveloped trolls in these forums.
Commentary is all about communicating information in an entertaining way. It is a focus on the communication, not the information. You can be conveying all sorts of different information. This is why a really good play by play commentator can still be entertaining for many or a joke commentary can be a blast.
I know that a lot of people don't like play by play so they won't like that style of commentary. Believe it or not I have noticed that A to B+ ranked players prefer play by play so they can shut their brain off. They aren't really going to learn much from any commentary so that portion of the entertainment is minimized. Point being your own personal experiences and backgrounds will help determine the type of commentary you enjoy.
On that line of thought Day9 possesses a very high level of technical knowledge that will appeal to certain viewers and turn other viewers off (mostly at the fringes I think). The rest of us possess much more widespread or "common" information on the technical side of things. That is to say, there are a LOT more C- to D- players in the world than A+ to C. We are only trying to communicate the technical information portion of the commetnary at our own level and as a result the pure technical information will appeal to a smaller subsection of player.
At the same time we aren't focusing on the technical information for our commentary to make our commentary entertaining. I would suck at a technical commentary. I can only commentate to my level of understanding and that is all I have every tried to do. That is not to say I haven't tried to improve over time. I definitely think my technical knowledge is better now than it was even a month ago and I think it gets better all the time. Day9 is in part to thank for that and as always I have to continuously thank all the EG and pandemic guys as well as key other people that discuss starcraft with me and enlighten me on a regular basis. I love learning about the game.
But knowing my technical knowledge will probably never be A+ I instead try to convey the emotional or historical information involved in a match. I have noticed that many times technical commentators downplay the emotions of the players in a match. It just makes sense for that style of commentary.
For example, in my commentary I will put emotional pressure on a 2 hatch muta whether they players are going through the motions or not. I think it creates tension for the viewer and as a result it makes the game exciting and entertaining to watch. In a technical commentary 2 hatch muta is something you don't emotional respond to generally. It is something you have seen a million times in game, it is something that you try to respond to with subconscious action.
Now each commentator tries to communicate the information that he/she possesses in a a unique way. However Day is communicating a type of information that the rest of us simply cannot and therefore his commentary is unique.
But when it comes to "better commentator" or "better commentary" its still a matter of what floats your boat.
On a side note I think people shouldn't overvalue technical information as "good commentary". Technical information as an information "commodity" is somewhat expensive (or cheap depending on your perspective). Technical information is only new to a viewer once and its super easy to plagiarize since once you hear someone else say something you now know it as well. Thus with a finite amount of knowledge in a semi-repetitive game technical information is easy to acquire and difficult to keep fresh. I may be wrong in this assumption, but I assummmme (and you know what they say about assumptions.... they are bad) that people who watch or put high value on technical information tend to view more casually.
In general I think its important to devalue the information that is being conveyed and to inflate the value of how it is communicated in commentary.
To wrap this up with a crude metaphor.... Good commentary is like making love to a women, you can have huge "equipment" but if you don't know how to use it she will just be bored. Stretching that metaphor to Day9, he not only has a huge ePeen, he knows how to use it.
Now noting that commentary entertainment is based on communication and not raw information input, and noting that different types of communication appeal to different people, everyone is going to have an opinion on what they think is better. And that is okay.
Hence oranges are way better than bananas. First of all they are way more fun to peel. Secondly they are a citrus. Third, they have the same name as their color. Also its easier to say orange than banana.
On January 08 2010 09:35 Diggity wrote:Also oranges are way better than bananas.
You just lost my vote.
DAMN a banana fan!
Yeah, that's I think what Diggity meant. People like different stuff. Don't trip out so much if someone else likes something else... everyone is always going to have their own set of preferences and you telling them they're wrong isn't going to change how they feel, so there's no point.
A lot of people is comparing the commentaries of Day9 with other commentators. I just want to state one important difference between them. Day9 watched the game before hand (maybe multiple times), but other commentators tend to do the commentaries on their first watch to avoid being spoiled the match. That is one reason why Day9 might notice small things and also the flow of the game itself.
On January 09 2010 03:11 Diggity wrote: [large post edited out]
I agree that it just comes down to preferences mostly. I wouldn't take "so and so is better" guys too seriously -- once you get past certain basic levels of commentating, its all a matter of opinion anyway. And as usual for most threads about commentators, there will be those that want to start a fight about how A is better than B.
Ultimately "finding out which commentator is better" is not really the goal of this contest, it's more to encourage participation and involvement with the community and with TSL. I hope nobody is discouraged by any sort of insulting or overly aggressive responses in this thread, thats just what naturally tends to happen when excited fans judge people based solely on their spoken personalities.
Let's hope the contest provides many commentaries and feedback.
it's more to encourage participation and involvement with the community and with TSL.
TSL is the best event for foreigners period. It is the non-korean MSL/OSL . As such I think we should all pool our support in it to make it the best event possible.
I definitely recommend participating here and also rooting for your favorite player G5 (and lets not forget Nyoken either).
On January 09 2010 03:13 LunarDestiny wrote: A lot of people is comparing the commentaries of Day9 with other commentators. I just want to state one important difference between them. Day9 watched the game before hand (maybe multiple times), but other commentators tend to do the commentaries on their first watch to avoid being spoiled the match. That is one reason why Day9 might notice small things and also the flow of the game itself.
Day9 also does live commentary. Your point is therefore just wrong.
On January 09 2010 03:13 LunarDestiny wrote: A lot of people is comparing the commentaries of Day9 with other commentators. I just want to state one important difference between them. Day9 watched the game before hand (maybe multiple times), but other commentators tend to do the commentaries on their first watch to avoid being spoiled the match. That is one reason why Day9 might notice small things and also the flow of the game itself.
Day9 also does live commentary. Your point is therefore just wrong.
Yes, Day9 did do a few live commentaries, but you would have to agree that his live commentaries are less indepth and less insightful compare with his usual day9 daily.
On January 09 2010 07:05 Sl4ktarN wrote: You can still participate even if you live outside the US, right? Just a Swede who really wants a Whaseung-shirt asking!
On January 09 2010 03:13 LunarDestiny wrote: A lot of people is comparing the commentaries of Day9 with other commentators. I just want to state one important difference between them. Day9 watched the game before hand (maybe multiple times), but other commentators tend to do the commentaries on their first watch to avoid being spoiled the match. That is one reason why Day9 might notice small things and also the flow of the game itself.
Day9 also does live commentary. Your point is therefore just wrong.
Yes, Day9 did do a few live commentaries, but you would have to agree that his live commentaries are less indepth and less insightful compare with his usual day9 daily.
I found his live Chill-Combat commentary extremely insightful.
On January 09 2010 07:58 BisuDagger wrote: When and where can we get the replays? I dont remember seeing a time for when the replay pack is released. Sorry if this was answered already.
The replays will be released after the games are played this weekend.
I'm willing to do a dual commentary with someone. Whenever I try to start doing commentaries I end up thinking "I'm talking to a computer screen...". It's much easier when the screen talks back. But when we win I call dibs on the left half of the jacket.
But on a more serious note...what if a dual commentary wins first place? Can they elect to each get a shirt instead of the $100 or jacket?
On January 09 2010 09:12 tofucake wrote: But on a more serious note...what if a dual commentary wins first place? Can they elect to each get a shirt instead of the $100 or jacket?
Plexa already pointed out that they wouldn't give two prizes... but didn't specify how they would resolve disagreements about who gets it :p
On January 09 2010 11:40 mattandstevesc wrote: Diggity wins with his fantastic commentating thesis. - Matt
To throw my 5 cents at the issue: I think professional television sportscasters are a good comparrison for all of this. They do a lot of play by play and the best ones use creative, entertaining terminology to do so. Still, they all use their high level of technical knowledge to attempt to give the audience a better picture of what is going on. Both are needed for a comentary to be good. I would say, at least from what I've seen, that the forgien sc community is rather lacking in the technical knowledge part (With the exception of Day[9]). I could spot more things than most of the youtube commentators and many were saying things that even I knew were wrong (and I'm D-). That being said, I respect those commentators for getting out there and trying to improve the community and make sc more entertaining for people.
I once watched a game with a translation of the korean commentators and I was blown away by how deep the technical aspects of their comentaries were while still bring all the hype of the personallities of the players and still doing a rough play-by-play. I realize that the Korean casters are paid professionals and so their quality will be much higher than the amatuer forgein scene. Still, we have something we can strive to copy, great examples of combining flair and technical ability.
I'm really glad the community is doing this contest! Its a great chance for the casters to have fun and try something new as well as getting feedback on how to become a better. Sc players keep getting better and better, and so the casters should keep up and strive for that professional level!
This thread has derailed and this is my last contribution to this perversion. Diggity seriously, c'mon man.. (technical) information is repetitive? Are you trolling or something? The games are always different. So having a really good understanding of basic builds and strategy overall is vital for appreciating what's going on in the players minds. What do their deviations mean. Which of the things we're seeing on screen are mistakes or due to poor scouting and which are concious adaptations? You have to guess in these matters because you don't have a clue. I respect you for your contributions to the community. I dispise you for your lack of repect for the (richness of) the game. And don't even think that I'm some kind of elitist. After I got reintroduced to starcraft via TSL I used to prefer klazart over tasteless, because klazart is and will always be a noobie (he was at my level) and an extremely good talker. Now I can't stand listening to him, because he's so stubborn in his ignorance. And proud of it, like you. Cholera was pretty good though.. Anyways, I and many others don't really care about the hierarchy of commentators, but don't even try to shove Day9 into some 'technical' corner to make yourself look better. He doesn't fit into a box. You do.
wadadde, I'll bet you like apples, don't you. Typical appleist.
By the way, I just rewatched my how to vid on making replay commentaries on a mac. It's a bit out of date.. I might make another one but in the mean time if anyone has any questions feel free to PM me.
On January 08 2010 23:20 7mk wrote:Example: Flash vs Calm game 3, when Flash did an eraser with two science vessels on calms 3o clock day9 mentioned how he did it by putting both vessels on patrol so he can go back to his army/base or whatever. I thought that was a great idea and it was just fun to realise this. (I never play Terran, so I definitely wont implement it into my play)
I am sorry, but that was a very bad example. Namely beacuse that was easy to figure out just by seeing the fact that the Science Vessels were moving back and forth in an empty expansion. Day[9] was merely stating the obvious.
Also, while Day[9] is a brilliant commentator who`s game knowledge and witty humour is unsurpassed, his Dailies are not really commentaries. They are more of a post-game analysis, where he takes the liberty to forward and rewind the video as he pleases. As such, he has much more freedom in terms of noticing the intricacies of the game then someone who has to commentate the game as it is running.
Is Day[9] still the better commentator? Yes. Would he still notice some of the minor details even if it was a normal commentary? Yes. But the example you provided hardly highlights this.
Yeah I was really sleepy when I watched game 3 the first time, but that is the thing, you dont need A- lvl knowledge to point out things like this, yet most commentators fail to do it.
You are absolutely right about day9 daily though, I shouldn't have picked an example out of that one, day9 daily for once really is for improving as a player, not just for pure entertainment.
OK now on to Diggity's epic post
Ok first paragraph has the same topic:
"I would call it a technical commentary. It is still there for entertainment. It is still a commentary. Its not weaker or stronger than any other type of commentary it just appeals to different people. "
Like I said though, I shouldn't have picked something from day9 daily, it's not fair to compare your commentaries to post game analysis like this, it's way too different in the way it's done and it is more than just a difference in style and commentating skill.
But in TSL2 for example we will definitely see great commentating with great focus on entertainment, and the excitement of the question who's gonna win, rather than a sole focus on strategy and this will be the kind of commentating that will - in my opinion - be superior to that of any sc2gg commentator, simply because those 4 really know what they're doing (especially Artosis imho (I can only talk about those sc2gg commentators I have watched though obviously). Chill out of those 4 is the only one where you could criticise him for not bringing enough excitement in his voice, it's something that people like you and cholera do better than him. (He said he wanted to work on that though after the first TSL)
Now each commentator tries to communicate the information that he/she possesses in a a unique way. However Day is communicating a type of information that the rest of us simply cannot and therefore his commentary is unique.
I just wanna point out here that it's not like day9 is this professor who only does super technical analysis. I'm sure you have seen chill vs combat-ex right? now that was just such ridiculous entertainment. And it had lots of jokes and was utterly unproffessional (which was a good thing). But that doesn't mean that he couldn't talk about the game itself, too.
I think a lot of people make the mistake of thinking that tons of knowledge = good commentator. Its the same mistake as brilliant scientist = great professor. Most of the time when you find people at that level, they have invested so much in their expertise that they fail to develop accompanying communication skills. Perhaps that is why there are so many emotionally underdeveloped trolls in these forums.
I don't think anybody said that. Nobody said that a good player automatically is a good commentator. But if you are a commentator, and your good at talking, bringing over excitement etc., you also need to know what you are talking about, and you don't need to be an A- lvl player to do this, your in game mechanics can be D- level, but you need to have a certain level of knowledge about the game.
Commentary is all about communicating information in an entertaining way. It is a focus on the communication, not the information.
Well this is where I just have to disagree, that's like saying it doesn't matter what you say, as long as you say it with a nice voice/lots of enthusiasm. So lets expand your little metaphor, when you're with a girl it's not just about the physical aspect of sex, it's also about intellectual stimulation because a lot of what happens when you have sex/how enjoyable it is is all in your brain (especially true for women).
But even if it's true that the focus on the way you communicate is much much much more important than what you communicate, you'd have to agree that if someone does both well, it's better than doing just one well ,right?
Now, don't get me wrong, I think what you're doing is great. I'd rather have someone like Artosis do this all the time, but none of my favourite casters do (of course day9 is doing a ton right now, but again that's different, except for his OSL live casts which are pretty rare) , and what you do draws a whole lot of people to starcraft. If I want to introduce a friend to korean progaming I do it with an english commentary, not with a korean one. It's just that, since you must put so much time into this, I just always wish you would put more time into learning the game better, and maybe do a little less commentaries for a while. I felt so even more when I saw for the first time that you guys are hanging out with EG players on ventrillo quite often. Cause damn that makes it SO much easier. Now funnily enough you actually mention this in your post, and you say you have improved, so I can't say much except that that's a very good thing - I definitely didn't realise when I watched your commentaries, but nowadays I do it only quite rarely, so that's not too surprising I guess. + Show Spoiler +
maybe you should cut off moletrap more often he's generally the one imo who gives me goosebumps of the negative kind by saying certain things. Sorry if you read this ^^
I'd just like to see you put even more time into it, since you must already put a ton of time into starcraft anyways, I think it would be more rewarding for everyone if you rearranged that time and used it a little differently for a bit. (more learning, less commentaries, and I mean osl/msl will be over soon anyways)
Of course it's your life and you can do whatever the fuck you want, and I'm just some random dude on the internet. Anyways, rock on
I was thinking about this earlier more and I realized I lumped in a lot of stuff into "technical information" that should be segregated. Additionally I think going in depth on this stuff helps explain the differentiation of viewers and might help people understand how to target a viewing audience and additionally might help people understand which audience they inhabit.'
First of all there is player mechanics. Player mechanics involve micro tricks, macro movement, basically any interaction physically between the player and the game. Sometimes its important to move 7 control groups of medic/marines across the field, but for some players that is not mechanically feasible.
I would put the science vessel on patrol thing into the "player mechanics" portion of technical information. This is what I was directly listing when I was talking about "expensive" information. The only way to gain it is through obsessive amounts of playing and then when you say it, it is out there. Players like Day9 possess this information but at the same time I don't think it should be overvalued in the commentary process. Yes it adds nice information quirks but ultimately if you said this same information every commentary viewers would get bored extremely quickly.
This is also information that appeals almost exclusively to the player who is looking to "improve his game". Its less vital to the spectator. Usually this is the D+ to C+ range on iccup. I have no interest in casting to this group of people. I don't expect you to enjoy my commentary. Sorry but you guys are too high maintenance. (see italics at end of post reply to 7mk to elaborate on this)
There is then also flat line "game mechanics" knowledge. I would call this cheap information with cheap distribution. Protoss should stay 1 base ahead of terran and the strengths of lurker ling against protoss would fall into this category. Its really easy to pick this up and really easy to disseminate this information as well. I would also put map features into this section. This is the core section of knowledge that most sc2gg commentators generally focus on.
Yes its obvious to the more skilled player, but it is not obvious or known information to the BGH battle net player or the viewers who played nothing but the single player campaign. This is the core audience we try to draw in.
Then there is meta game information. Day9 will always be better at this source of information than the rest of us. Meta game information involves timing attacks, popular styles of play, the rotation of build orders since 1999 etc. This is expensive information to obtain and expensive information to disseminate. What I mean by that is, it takes years of play time to develop this information. Then even when you have this information, when you divulge it to the audience it generally goes way over their head. This is the information that again appeals heavily to the hardcore player.
Day9 will always be ahead of us when it comes to this information since he played at an extremely high level. Additionally the rest of us either don't have the capacity or the time to focus on obtaining a high proficiency in this type of information.
I think Day9's core strength is his ability to effectively communicate this particular type of information to the viewers.
I will generally either avoid or intentionally skew this type of information to make commentary more appealing to a wider audience. For example there are many times in a match when I know the game is absolutely over, one player has won and its going to be another 15 minutes before we see a "gg". However I will intentionally not divulge that fact to keep the commentary entertaining. You will also never/rarely see me ever say "timing attack" or go to depth into anything that takes more than 2 minutes to explain.
Very few viewers have a conception of a "timing attack" and I have noticed that generally when they hear the words or something that is out of the realm of their current knowledge their brain shuts down and the commentary becomes much less entertaining. I am not saying this is the case for every viewer. I am sure there are plenty of higher level players that love this, but draw back for a second and realize that there are a lot of viewers who will be lost with this sort of information.
This is information that guys like Day9 Artosis etc will be wayyyyyy better at providing than we will. I can see where many people would say "ok that makes them better commentators and therefore their commentary is superior and everyone should love it best". I would agree that it makes them more knowledgeable commentators. They will definitely catch meta game stuff the rest of us don't. But again commentary is about conveying information in an entertaining way. It should now be obvious how this style and type of information conveying is more entertaining for some but not others depending on their own personal experience.
I know its extremely difficult but I am asking you the reader to step back a second and evaluate yourself as a starcraft fan. That way you can better understand how to interact with other starcraft fans rather than turning these topics into regular flame wars. Lofty goal I know. Additionally if you aim to provide your own commentary this information is vital.
I reallllllly want to nip this in the bud before SC2 hits full swing because I think its going to be incredibly important that the community act together as a unified whole to see amazing things happen.
On to responses
I just wanna point out here that it's not like day9 is this professor who only does super technical analysis. I'm sure you have seen chill vs combat-ex right? now that was just such ridiculous entertainment. And it had lots of jokes and was utterly unproffessional (which was a good thing). But that doesn't mean that he couldn't talk about the game itself, too.
I am talking more about Day9's general commentating style. Unprofessional goofy commentary is another style of commentary I didn't address here at all. It is a valid style though.
Day9 isn't unique for that style though. Almost everyone is capable of doing a solid goofy commentary I think. But Day9 realllllly excels when it comes to his technical teaching style.
I don't think anybody said that. Nobody said that a good player automatically is a good commentator. But if you are a commentator, and your good at talking, bringing over excitement etc., you also need to know what you are talking about, and you don't need to be an A- lvl player to do this, your in game mechanics can be D- level, but you need to have a certain level of knowledge about the game.
I dont think you personally said this, but I have run into this a lot in two years. I agree with you entirely that your game mechanics can be D - level. I am a really bad player for example but I feel like I can convey information beyond my playing level.
Well this is where I just have to disagree, that's like saying it doesn't matter what you say, as long as you say it with a nice voice/lots of enthusiasm.
Going to walk on egg shells with this one. One of the WCG commentators they had to Starcraft stuff instead of tasteless was Bruce. Bruce is an excellent commentator. His starcraft commentary was terrible just because of how unique the game is. Bruce will fully admit that this commentary was bad, but he is still a great commentator.
But even if it's true that the focus on the way you communicate is much much much more important than what you communicate, you'd have to agree that if someone does both well, it's better than doing just one well ,right?
What I am saying is when you provide commentary you are going to have a target demographic. Just like TV shows or commercials. The information is going to determine your demographic, the way you communicate that information is going to determine if the commentary is "good" or not.
Have you ever seen a movie that was well made but you just didn't like it? I think Public Enemies was the most recent movie like that for me. I think that is a decent metaphor.
response to spoiler
Sometimes being a good "dual" commentator involves not interrupting. Believe me every single multi-person commentary I am DYING to get the mic back to mention something that is happening that I feel that the other commentator is not focusing on. Sometimes though the moment has passed and its better to move on and "feed a line" to your partner. I could come up with a lot of examples of this but the post is really long already.
I'd just like to see you put even more time into it, since you must already put a ton of time into starcraft anyways, I think it would be more rewarding for everyone if you rearranged that time and used it a little differently for a bit. (more learning, less commentaries, and I mean osl/msl will be over soon anyways)
(this is the high maintence portion referenced earlier)
I don't think its possible to put any more time into this. I don't think I would want to unless I was paid full time. Allow me to explain my logic
1) Starcraft commentating takes a ton of time. Try making a commentary sometime and you will see. The majority of commentating involves video processing and splitting videos. Its not glamorous. I think day9 has found a bit of a shortcut for this using livestream but there are costs and benefits to having stuff on livestream. Most of my aims preclude me from using it.
2) Starcraft playing using up the same type of energy that commentating does. Not sure why this is the case, it just is.
3) Starcraft playing is fun for me but not relaxing. (I am sure that a lot of people will agree with me on this). The onlllly gaming I do right now is league of legends with the EG guys. Its 2 games a night when I come stumbling in at 11pm. I do it because its relaxing for me. Starcraft just keeps me up all night.
4) I have a full time job 5) I have a girlfriend 6) I have a social life 7) I have bills that preclude me from not working.
Now what I could do is stop commentating altogether and play instead. But then I would have a lot of angry youtube fans.
If I did do that, what am I logically gaining?
I would be aiming to envelop an audience that is mostly disinterested in my style of commentary to begin with and is already in my opinion mentally segregated (which is frustrating but that is life). Basically the people I would be gaining are more interested in playing than watching to start with. On top of that even with the improvements I have made I doubt I will ever break the general stigma of "lack of knowledge" or whatever here in the community even if I hit B-. I see a ton of people go "moletrap and diggity have zero game knowledge... but cholera is good". Cholera is at the same level in both playing and knowledge as the rest of us. As far as play style goes he tends to be a lot more cheesy than I. As far as commentary style he tends to be more goofy. The difference? Word of mouth reputation etc. I started off a total newbie, he didn't. FYI Psyonic is the best player among us. I think Rise managed to cheese his way to C- but don't quote me on that. I don't put a lot of faith in the community at large to tell the difference anyway.
Side story: I was on louder's stream awhile ago when he was playing a TvP. Louder was under heavy vulture harass pressure but holding 2 expansions. I was like, well looks like louder will win the game. Some TL guy who had been a steady anti-Diggity advocate chimed in, "he is totally done you sc2gg newbie". Two minutes later Louder steam rolled his base. Lesson: a lot of people that pretend to be able to judge the difference in reality can't.
So I could invest a ton of time in playing but I don't think it would gain me anything. Put looming Starcraft 2 on the horizon and I have even less interest.
That being said I do play when I can and tend to play more on the off commentary season (inbetween all the finals).
Ultimately though I think having this players player commentator come out of the woodwork is just silly. I wouldn't want anyone investing the hours of play time and hours it takes to do the commentary, particularly without pay. Their lives would be starcraft and there would be zero appreciation for it in my opinion. There are better things to prioritize in life.
anyhow thanks for the support 7mk I really appreciate it.
I love to watch commentated games over raw games for sure, and I really like diggitys commenties. Its not only the tactical commentry of the VOD thats important. Its also nice to have someone present you the statistics for the map, current league standings etc etc.
The most important to me is however that I get to share the experiance with someone. It might sound stupid but thats the best part about SC commentaries. I get to listen to someone that has a passion for the game and want to share that passion with me.
i've been watching commentaries for years now (mostly SC2GG stuff tbh) i don't think i have the technical know-how for colour tho so i'd have to dual,
edit: all I know about the finer points of commentating i picked up watching SC2GG's presentation of "Commentator's Idol" i didn't really like everyone who was in it - there was one funny game in the entire "show" but the bonefide commentators, diggity, klazart (IMO), cholera, chill was on for one, and moletrap gave great analysis of the commentaries themselves and shared what they had garnered from commentating these years.
@Diggity OK, there's a few things that I think you misunderstood in my post (for example I never wanted you to invest more time into sc overall than you already do) but oh well they're not too imporant so I'll just go to the main point.
Maybe you're right, maybe I should have thought about the demographic a bit more, in your previous post you already made that point but you were largely referring to day9 daily which is obviously super technical and only for some, therefore you didn't convince me in that post.
I still really disagree that commentators like the TSL commentators are only for people who want to improve their game. I don't plan on ever learning PvT/TvP but Nony vs Idra was great to watch and it was great to listen to all the stuff that Chill and especially Artosis had to say about the strategical/tactical side of things. I probably forgot everything that they said right after the matches but it still imo made it more entertaining. Now would your demographic not enjoy commentary like this? I honestly don't know, I guess that's possible, even though there certainly are a LOT of D-/D players on TL.
I still have one thing to complain about though (I'm pretty good at that), which is when commentators simply say things that immediately make you aware that they dont know the game well. Because your point is that you focus on other things, on more obvious things, and that's fine but when people say things that are just wrong it always makes me shiver. Like I am pretty sure it was moletrap in a ZvT not too long ago, where Zerg did 2hatch muta, laid down the 3rd hatch at pretty standard timing but for some reason he talked about how that was a super early 3rd hatch and about how this was sort of a mix of 2hatch and 3 hatch. It's just a bit frustrating to hear stuff like that. (I do know about the cutting off thing btw, I did watch that sc2gg commentary contest thingy that kenny won.)
However, you've explained yourself very well and I can see pretty much all your points, so there's nothing left for me to argue about... And sadly you are probably right about the stigma part, certainly there would be lots of people who are not that stupid but there wouldn't exactly be a lack of them either.
But oh well, good discussion, gg
Btw. starcraft isn't relaxing for me either. Not at all.
On January 09 2010 02:20 Lazzarus wrote: Hope NukeTheStars enters this competition - I really like his commentating. He doesn't only do playbyplay which is awesome, he's extremely skilled when it comes to hype videos as well!
Wow, I thought your first post was long diggity! I couldn't make it through your second one, sorry
I'm a big fan of your commentary and I appreciate the nature of it and tend to enjoy it more than the technical commentary of TL casters even though I enjoy playing Starcraft and do want to get better at it.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Kennigit/TSL2_Banners/CommentaryContest_banner.png)
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