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On January 07 2010 07:03 imbecile wrote:
Since July is seems to be too old for good now, I'm happy to be rooting for Shine. And once Calm shows up again consistently and Clam stays home ...
Kal and Stork games are still most fun to watch though. Here is hoping Winners League will show us some streaks of them.
I always thought Shine plays like July too - lotsa lair tech to finish the game.
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51497 Posts
On January 07 2010 06:09 BanZu wrote:Neither do it for me lol
it's like they got the ugliest girls in korea.
well not ugliest, but they tried their hardest to get 'cute' but 'really bad looking cute'
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The quarterfinal games were pretty good and fun to watch actually. Too bad Jaedong and Stork got eliminated 
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On January 07 2010 06:00 Chill wrote:She's not suepr cute but that is a bad pic of her.
she was super hot like 1 year ago
then she started gaining weight
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those are terrible pictures of booth girls
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On January 07 2010 06:04 Nal_rAwr wrote:
booth girls are hot lol
+1
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On January 07 2010 12:42 MrHoon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2010 06:00 Chill wrote:On January 07 2010 05:59 Kenpachi wrote:
That first boothgirl is hideous. She's not suepr cute but that is a bad pic of her. she was super hot like 1 year ago then she started gaining weight
got a pic of her one year ago?
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On January 07 2010 10:41 ThunderGod wrote:
I always thought Shine plays like July too - lotsa lair tech to finish the game.
The name makes me giggle though: "Shine, Pure and Light, the holy pony unicorn trinity of starcraft."
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You might consider some of this nitpicking, but I thought a lot of this write-up seemed to make things sound like the opposite of what they were:
On January 07 2010 04:50 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Flash made the standard timing attack while the spire was going up that every Terran facing 3 hatch muta does, but Jaedong was smart enough to have three sunken colonies building when Flash's MnM force moved across the center of the map. Flash was content to prevent Jaedong's third base from going up, instead. This sounds like Flash's game-plan was totally standard, but when Jaedong played well to counter it he had to settle for plan B. On the contrary, I think that Flash's attack was not the standard timing attack; JD's (early) third was his real target all along, and investing in three sunkens in a location that Flash didn't even attack hurt Jaedong rather than helping him.
The problem with the way Flash shut down Jaedong's third base was that his initial army was on the other side of the map when Jaedong's muta/ling army attacked his natural. Flash was OK, though; he had a bunker at his natural and a sizable force in his main and turrets freaking everywhere. Still, having half his army on the other side of the map probably wasn't a good thing. Flash has run into problems in the past when he has felt confident enough in his defense to take chances, with sometimes disastrous results. How can you possibly say that it probably wasn't a good thing after watching the way Flash dismantled JD in this game? The proof of the pudding is in the eating: Flash was never even remotely threatened by Jaedong's attacks on his base this game. It's not even as though you can say that Flash left an opening but got lucky that JD didn't take it: Jaedong's whole game-plan that game was to counter Flash's bases: he tried doing it all game. If Flash's defense had a weakness, don't you think Jaedong would have found it?
Technically, though, Pure spent more minerals to cannon rush the hatchery than it took to build! Pure's core (and thus his tech) was delayed, and, as it happened, Calm's tech was right on schedule. Soon, mutalisks and scourge were flying into Pure's base, killing everything. To me this makes it sound like Pure lost because of the (successful) cannon rush, when all he had to do was place a few extra cannons in his mineral line, and the rush would have put him comfortably ahead.
The hilarious thing is that Shine had a bunch of excess minerals and gas during all this; you'd assume that building mutas isn't that difficult. Why should it be easier or harder than macroing any other unit or combination of units?
In game 3 on HBR, Shine 9 pooled and tried to mine out the minerals above Stork's base. Stork noticed the cheese only at the last second, and was able to get probes in position to defend just in time. After some dancing around, Shine had to leave after doing almost no damage. It's not as if the attempt hurt him badly, though. This sounds like the outcome was neutral with possibly a slight disadvantage to Shine (the lost mining time for the drone that mined out the patch, I suppose). In fact, Stork lost quite a few probe-minutes of mining time when he had to use probes to block: the edge definitely goes to Shine there.
Don't take the criticism the wrong way, please: I definitely appreciate your taking the time to do these lengthy write-ups. I wouldn't have spent so long commenting otherwise.
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On January 08 2010 02:42 qrs wrote:You might consider some of this nitpicking, but I thought a lot of this write-up seemed to make things sound like the opposite of what they were: Show nested quote +On January 07 2010 04:50 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Flash made the standard timing attack while the spire was going up that every Terran facing 3 hatch muta does, but Jaedong was smart enough to have three sunken colonies building when Flash's MnM force moved across the center of the map. Flash was content to prevent Jaedong's third base from going up, instead. This sounds like Flash's game-plan was totally standard, but when Jaedong played well to counter it he had to settle for plan B. On the contrary, I think that Flash's attack was not the standard timing attack; JD's (early) third was his real target all along, and investing in three sunkens in a location that Flash didn't even attack hurt Jaedong rather than helping him. Show nested quote +The problem with the way Flash shut down Jaedong's third base was that his initial army was on the other side of the map when Jaedong's muta/ling army attacked his natural. Flash was OK, though; he had a bunker at his natural and a sizable force in his main and turrets freaking everywhere. Still, having half his army on the other side of the map probably wasn't a good thing. Flash has run into problems in the past when he has felt confident enough in his defense to take chances, with sometimes disastrous results. How can you possibly say that it probably wasn't a good thing after watching the way Flash dismantled JD in this game? The proof of the pudding is in the eating: Flash was never even remotely threatened by Jaedong's attacks on his base this game. It's not even as though you can say that Flash left an opening but got lucky that JD didn't take it: Jaedong's whole game-plan that game was to counter Flash's bases: he tried doing it all game. If Flash's defense had a weakness, don't you think Jaedong would have found it? Show nested quote +Technically, though, Pure spent more minerals to cannon rush the hatchery than it took to build! Pure's core (and thus his tech) was delayed, and, as it happened, Calm's tech was right on schedule. Soon, mutalisks and scourge were flying into Pure's base, killing everything. To me this makes it sound like Pure lost because of the (successful) cannon rush, when all he had to do was place a few extra cannons in his mineral line, and the rush would have put him comfortably ahead. Show nested quote +The hilarious thing is that Shine had a bunch of excess minerals and gas during all this; you'd assume that building mutas isn't that difficult. Why should it be easier or harder than macroing any other unit or combination of units? Show nested quote +In game 3 on HBR, Shine 9 pooled and tried to mine out the minerals above Stork's base. Stork noticed the cheese only at the last second, and was able to get probes in position to defend just in time. After some dancing around, Shine had to leave after doing almost no damage. It's not as if the attempt hurt him badly, though. This sounds like the outcome was neutral with possibly a slight disadvantage to Shine (the lost mining time for the drone that mined out the patch, I suppose). In fact, Stork lost quite a few probe-minutes of mining time when he had to use probes to block: the edge definitely goes to Shine there. Don't take the criticism the wrong way, please: I definitely appreciate your taking the time to do these lengthy write-ups. I wouldn't have spent so long commenting otherwise.
agreed,nothing more to say.
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On January 08 2010 02:42 qrs wrote:You might consider some of this nitpicking, but I thought a lot of this write-up seemed to make things sound like the opposite of what they were: Show nested quote +On January 07 2010 04:50 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Flash made the standard timing attack while the spire was going up that every Terran facing 3 hatch muta does, but Jaedong was smart enough to have three sunken colonies building when Flash's MnM force moved across the center of the map. Flash was content to prevent Jaedong's third base from going up, instead. This sounds like Flash's game-plan was totally standard, but when Jaedong played well to counter it he had to settle for plan B. On the contrary, I think that Flash's attack was not the standard timing attack; JD's (early) third was his real target all along, and investing in three sunkens in a location that Flash didn't even attack hurt Jaedong rather than helping him. Show nested quote +The problem with the way Flash shut down Jaedong's third base was that his initial army was on the other side of the map when Jaedong's muta/ling army attacked his natural. Flash was OK, though; he had a bunker at his natural and a sizable force in his main and turrets freaking everywhere. Still, having half his army on the other side of the map probably wasn't a good thing. Flash has run into problems in the past when he has felt confident enough in his defense to take chances, with sometimes disastrous results. How can you possibly say that it probably wasn't a good thing after watching the way Flash dismantled JD in this game? The proof of the pudding is in the eating: Flash was never even remotely threatened by Jaedong's attacks on his base this game. It's not even as though you can say that Flash left an opening but got lucky that JD didn't take it: Jaedong's whole game-plan that game was to counter Flash's bases: he tried doing it all game. If Flash's defense had a weakness, don't you think Jaedong would have found it? Show nested quote +Technically, though, Pure spent more minerals to cannon rush the hatchery than it took to build! Pure's core (and thus his tech) was delayed, and, as it happened, Calm's tech was right on schedule. Soon, mutalisks and scourge were flying into Pure's base, killing everything. To me this makes it sound like Pure lost because of the (successful) cannon rush, when all he had to do was place a few extra cannons in his mineral line, and the rush would have put him comfortably ahead. Show nested quote +The hilarious thing is that Shine had a bunch of excess minerals and gas during all this; you'd assume that building mutas isn't that difficult. Why should it be easier or harder than macroing any other unit or combination of units? Show nested quote +In game 3 on HBR, Shine 9 pooled and tried to mine out the minerals above Stork's base. Stork noticed the cheese only at the last second, and was able to get probes in position to defend just in time. After some dancing around, Shine had to leave after doing almost no damage. It's not as if the attempt hurt him badly, though. This sounds like the outcome was neutral with possibly a slight disadvantage to Shine (the lost mining time for the drone that mined out the patch, I suppose). In fact, Stork lost quite a few probe-minutes of mining time when he had to use probes to block: the edge definitely goes to Shine there. Don't take the criticism the wrong way, please: I definitely appreciate your taking the time to do these lengthy write-ups. I wouldn't have spent so long commenting otherwise.
I'll PM this to motbob since I didn't write any of that.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
In games involving 3 hatch muta, it seems like Terrans always send out an army to force the zerg to make sunkens. In some recent TvZs, Zergs have neglected to put up enough defense, and the Terran simply kills them in those cases. I wish I had specific examples of those types of games, but, sadly, TLPD doesn't sort games by build order 
It's almost as if zergs have forgotten how to play 3 hatch muta; for about a year, zergs were using 2 hatch almost exclusively. On the new maps, 3 hatch has been making a comeback. At least, that's how I remember things.
Because Jaedong went 3 hatch, not investing in 3 sunkens would have led to an early death.
Having an army on the other side of the map while muta harassment is starting is not ideal for a Terran. However, in this case, Flash reaped greater benefits from having the army on the other side of the map than he did if the army had been in-base. Can you agree that Flash's army being far away increased the likelihood that Jaedong would do massive damage with mutalisks?
I was not saying that the army being on the other side of the map was a mistake. Clearly, it was 100% the correct decision because the only disadvantage it brought was the possibility of an early death for Flash, which was a possibility which did not materialize. I was only saying that it perhaps wasn't a good thing for Flash in general. Jaedong's attack brought to mind visions of Flash's early exit from the MSL against Kwanro, or his loss to Hyun recently, or his loss to Yarnc's muta all-in a season or two ago.
Yes, Pure lost because he didn't put cannons in his mineral line. I agree (and agreed):
Pure typed out, surely with a resolve in his heart to beef up his base defense in game 2.
Pure should have compensated for his late tech by investing in the muta defense that he was missing because of the late stargate.
Stork already had 4 probes at his nat just sitting there, preparing for a ling runby at the front. Stork brought 3 extra probes up to defend after he scouted the lings, probes which were actually sent to mine before the zergling threat was totally gone. I assume that Stork would have kept the lings at the front of his nat if he had not scouted anything, so we have
- 3 probes not mining for less than a minute
vs
- a drone not mining for as long as it takes to go across the map, mine out the min patch, and come back
Shine did not come out appreciably ahead, if at all, in this case.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
Oh, I didn't see the macro thing. The thing is that Shine had an incredibly simple strategy: make lots of mutas and kill the Protoss. The fact that his min and gas count was high is something I find pretty funny. Although, on second thought, maybe he felt he had as many mutas as he could micro.
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On January 08 2010 03:22 motbob wrote:In games involving 3 hatch muta, it seems like Terrans always send out an army to force the zerg to make sunkens. In some recent TvZs, Zergs have neglected to put up enough defense, and the Terran simply kills them in those cases. I wish I had specific examples of those types of games, but, sadly, TLPD doesn't sort games by build order It's almost as if zergs have forgotten how to play 3 hatch muta; for about a year, zergs were using 2 hatch almost exclusively. On the new maps, 3 hatch has been making a comeback. At least, that's how I remember things. Because Jaedong went 3 hatch, not investing in 3 sunkens would have led to an early death. Yes, that would be the standard timing push, but Flash's plan went well beyond that. Usually, the Terran's primary goal is to force the Zerg to place sunken colonies; when that happens, he moves back again. Flash's primary goal was to deny the third here. I don't think "standard timing push" does it justice. Sure, in either case the secondary goal is the same (kill the Zerg if he cuts too many corners on defense) but the primary goal was different.
In light of that, I think that had Jaedong known what Flash was planning, his reaction would have been different as well. I agree that he couldn't have skipped sunkens entirely, but three seems on the cautious side. He probably could have held off any attack with at most two sunken colonies + his army, but he put down an extra sunken to buy some time for a counter (which did nothing).
Put it this way: Jaedong played completely into Flash's hands that game. Do you think that if he could play the game again, he would still put three sunkens there?
Having an army on the other side of the map while muta harassment is starting is not ideal for a Terran. However, in this case, Flash reaped greater benefits from having the army on the other side of the map than he did if the army had been in-base. Can you agree that Flash's army being far away increased the likelihood that Jaedong would do massive damage with mutalisks? Well, given the fact that we know what happened, I think it's fair to say with benefit of hindsight that Flash was totally safe without his army there. I mean, Starcraft is not Risk: it's fairly deterministic. I think that if the exact same scenario is run multiple times (same players, same map, same building placement, timings, etc.) you can expect the same outcome most of the time. Judging from the game, I don't think that Flash ran the risk of an early death at all.
I was not saying that the army being on the other side of the map was a mistake. Clearly, it was 100% the correct decision.... I was only saying that it perhaps wasn't a good thing for Flash in general. Jaedong's attack brought to mind visions of Flash's early exit from the MSL against Kwanro, or his loss to Hyun recently, or his loss to Yarnc's muta all-in a season or two ago. Well, if you were just talking about that sort of aggressive approach in general, I won't argue (although Flash is playing much more dominantly these days than I can ever remember seeing him play, so I don't know if it's fair to make that sort of comparison). When you said that it "probably 'wasn't' a good thing" it sounded like you meant in this game.
Yes, Pure lost because he didn't put cannons in his mineral line. I agree (and agreed): Show nested quote +Pure typed out, surely with a resolve in his heart to beef up his base defense in game 2. Pure should have compensated for his late tech by investing in the muta defense that he was missing because of the late stargate.
Stork already had 4 probes at his nat just sitting there, preparing for a ling runby at the front. Stork brought 3 extra probes up to defend after he scouted the lings, probes which were actually sent to mine before the zergling threat was totally gone. I assume that Stork would have kept the lings at the front of his nat if he had not scouted anything, so we have
- 3 probes not mining for less than a minute
vs
- a drone not mining for as long as it takes to go across the map, mine out the min patch, and come back
Shine did not come out appreciably ahead, if at all, in this case. All right, that's a reasonable point, so I went back and looked at that part of the VOD to actually check the timings. Shine's drone took approximately three minutes to make the round trip (mining included). Stork's mining-time loss was a bit harder to count exactly: the total amount of time that probes were pulled was around a minute, but the number of probes pulled ranged from seven at the beginning to four at the end. Overall I'd say he lost around 5-6 probe-minutes of mining time, still a fair bit more than Shine
If we go with your assumption that he would have kept 4 probes pulled in any case, then Stork's time loss becomes much less, of course, but I don't think that the assumption is a good one. Those initial four probes were blocking as he waited for his second cannon to warp in; once that happened (before Shine's lings got there), I don't think Stork would have kept them pulled; certainly not all four of them.
In any case whomever's reckoning you go with, Stork's mining-time loss was much bigger than the number of pulled probes would indicate. I know I didn't mention this at first--sorry (just refreshed my memory by watching the VOD again)--but besides stopping the probes from mining, Shine denied mining from the mineral patches at the natural entirely: the whole natural for about half a minute, and then half the natural for another half a minute. Since you get diminishing returns as you saturate the mineral patches, that's pretty significant. Finally, Shine also managed to trade a zergling for a probe before he left. So overall, I think Shine gained a fair bit from that skirmish.
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On January 08 2010 03:28 motbob wrote:
Oh, I didn't see the macro thing. The thing is that Shine had an incredibly simple strategy: make lots of mutas and kill the Protoss. The fact that his min and gas count was high is something I find pretty funny. Although, on second thought, maybe he felt he had as many mutas as he could micro. I was just saying that no matter what the strategy is, it requires units and the units require macro, right? What difference does it make which keys you have to press? But I guess you were saying that with such a simple gameplan, he didn't have the excuse that making strategic decisions distracted him from his macro?
Either way, though, I think the second point that you just brought up--micro--is the telling one. Maybe he did feel that he had as many mutas as he could micro, but more than that: if anything directly conflicts with macro, it is micro, since it demands constant attention. Mutalisks demand a lot more micro than most other units, so if anything, on second thought, I would guess that progamers have the worst macro precisely when they use a pure-mutalisk strategy. It would be interesting to check that...
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
I absolutely do think that Jaedong would have done the same thing again. What I am saying is that Jaedong had the choice of either putting up the sunken colonies or dying. If he hadn't put up the sunken colonies, Flash would have changed his plans from delaying the third to killing Jaedong's natural.
I concede the point about Shine's attack. I was lax and I did not watch the VOD closely enough. Shine did in fact come out ahead.
On the other points we seem to have reached an agreement.
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OK, at least where we still disagree we know exactly what we're disagreeing on. Thanks for responding and clarifying.
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United States17042 Posts
I like shine - he plays well ^.^ great writeup.
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EPT
