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Liquipedia Strategic Q&A - Episode II
November 3rd, 2009 09:02 GMT
Banner by SilverskYHopin' for a Revolution
The Making of Modern PvZ
Liquipedia Strategic Q&A
Monday, 9th of November, 3.00 KST
Sunday, 8th of November, 19.00 CET
Sunday, 8th of November, 10.00 PST
Outline
It's almost getting stale: Complaints about this matchup have been numerous in the weeks passed, and no solid judgement has yet been reached. Protoss are sparse in the OSL Ro16, but even fewer Terrans have made it through.
We won't talk about Imbalance, much. But we will analyse the implications of the 3 Base Spire into 5 hatch Hydra Build Order that is causing Protoss so much mischief and be looking into possible causes and solutions.
PreparationAs customary, we will have a set of games to watch beforehand and which we'll analyse live on stage. These are: July vs. BeSt, Game 3 on AndromedaNot the first usage ever, but the moment when the build mentioned inevitably surfaced in all its strength.+ Show Spoiler [The VOD] +Bisu vs. Shine, Game 3 on Heartbreak RidgeParadigmatic display of Protoss not doing many mistakes, but succumbing to the Templar sniping.+ Show Spoiler [The VOD] +BackHo vs. Calm, Game 1 on Eye of the StormWho would have thought some hope would come from Backho ? But he takes a game off Calm with great DT usage.+ Show Spoiler [The VOD] +
More Show
But we have more: A showmatch will be played afterwards, to settle the score between Aiur and the Zerg. The protagonists will be:
We will try to provide 3rd person commentary and two seperate FPview streams from the players involved.
Got Questions?
To cover your needs, we need your questions. Ask them in the strategy forum thread.
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Liquipedia Players Page
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PM a Liquipedia Staff Member: Aesop, Pholon, Imperator, mikeymoo, GHOSTCLAW, cgrinker
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Awesome pick and topic, especially the people discussing it, although I disagree with the games being picked to discuss the topic, Backhos build is terrible and would die to any other build or even cutting some drones to get some hydra, its a timing attack that will only work once vs anyone, + the July/Best game is extremely outdated when discussing 3 hat spire to 5hat hydra, a lot more recent games would do better in presenting the topic/build.
FakeSteve Edit: DustBowl's dick is hard
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United States42676 Posts
Yeah. BackHo vs Calm was just classic BackHo fail. Calm held off the first dt break the way every competent zerg will and was then like "ok, now he'll transition into ht because he's not an idiot so I'll transition with him". Which of course completely missed the point that BackHo never, ever, changes his build based upon what's actually going on in the game. He rolled his build order dice and it said dt.
It didn't work because the build was good. The build was trying to break the first few hydra and get a dt into the main and it completely failed at that. Overlord speed plus a decent wall rapes it. It worked because Calm was doing 4th level thinking whereas BackHo is incapable of anything beyond 1st.
The mass dt into breaking a part of the zerg defence and then creating more fronts with dts than he can handle is a build I am familiar with. The first attack needs to succeed for the build to work because then the dt that gets into his main can start distracting him and then his hydra start moving around and holes appear in his defence and the dts start ninjaing in through the gaps, both in his actual defences and also his attention. Once the first attack fails to break into his main the build has failed, pure and simple. Calm knew this and knew BackHo 'had' to transition into standard play. BackHo may have known this, it's unclear because being BackHo it wouldn't matter if he knew it or not, he still wouldn't change.
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51449 Posts
Holy crap, not only DUAL FPVODS but THE RETURN OF NONY?
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On November 03 2009 18:51 KwarK wrote:
Yeah. BackHo vs Calm was just classic BackHo fail. Calm held off the first dt break the way every competent zerg will and was then like "ok, now he'll transition into ht because he's not an idiot so I'll transition with him". Which of course completely missed the point that BackHo never, ever, changes his build based upon what's actually going on in the game. He rolled his build order dice and it said dt.
It didn't work because the build was good. The build was trying to break the first few hydra and get a dt into the main and it completely failed at that. Overlord speed plus a decent wall rapes it. It worked because Calm was doing 4th level thinking whereas BackHo is incapable of anything beyond 1st.
The mass dt into breaking a part of the zerg defence and then creating more fronts with dts than he can handle is a build I am familiar with. The first attack needs to succeed for the build to work because then the dt that gets into his main can start distracting him and then his hydra start moving around and holes appear in his defence and the dts start ninjaing in through the gaps, both in his actual defences and also his attention. Once the first attack fails to break into his main the build has failed, pure and simple. Calm knew this and knew BackHo 'had' to transition into standard play. BackHo may have known this, it's unclear because being BackHo it wouldn't matter if he knew it or not, he still wouldn't change.
Another fact that indicated that it was an all in was the wall. Calm saw the wall which only let zealots out so he expected standard reaver/sair(well I thought he was going reaver/sair I dont know about calm) or a speedlot build, but then Backho used that really messed up timing push at a weird timing to counter Calm's drone whoring and then continued rallying stuff all over till he won with the mass drone kills.
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Hungary11291 Posts
We might be switching the example games according to your suggestions. Stay tuned.
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lol.
love "the return of the nony" :D
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Awesome experts and showmatch, looking forward to it!
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This is great, can't wait. Good job! 
And of course, I hope there will be FPVOD's, VOD's and mp3's of this chit-chat-playing session.
Thanks!
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Stork's sair/reaver could be tekd into consideration?
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United States17042 Posts
On November 03 2009 23:16 Inzek wrote:
Stork's sair/reaver could be tekd into consideration?
many of stork's sair reaver games happened before 3 hat spire into 5 hat hydra was common. Even worse, most zergs didn't know about the build. However, there are example games of stork where he goes sair reaver against 3 hat spire into 5 hat hydra, although I don't remember any particularly memorable games where stork won against that zerg bo without the zerg making some sort of mistake earlier.
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Wow, this looks like it's going to be awesome. Great choice of topic too.
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I think the Best vs. July game should certainly be kept as an example. It provides an overview of the beginnings of the mentality of the 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra and complies what would happen if the build continued on into "ULTRA"- (see what I did there?) late game. This provides some history as to why the MU is where it is now and how we've shifted from an era of such Protoss dominance to the modern meta-game. Conversely, I believe July's style is SO personalized that trying to analyze the vast majority of his builds is a waste when considered from a meta-game analytical standpoint. I mean, the man hidden proxy hatched in a zvz, he's not exactly "sane".
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This is awesome! I look forward to this.
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holy crap this will be good. sounds record the stream and sound :O
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8748 Posts
On November 04 2009 01:15 motbob wrote:You really need to have  GosI[Flying] vs  great as one of the example games. I watched that game and thought, "Oh, that's how you play pro-level PvZ." I don't think Backho vs Calm is a good game to use as an example of the state of the matchup today or in the future, but flying vs great seems to me to be an indicator of things to come.
I will check out this game.
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Best lineup that can be expected, so looks good.
Although I don't expect anything particularly revealing. There will be talk about maps and general strategy. But each game in itself is an individual entity and just come down to every little decision aggregated. If a zerg like effort has their build down tight you must have your build down equally optimized to have a chance. And I suspect that is the main problem -- whether DA or sairs or whatever, toss don't have their builds down as tight, at least partly because their builds are more complex than zergs. Zergs build plan is very straight forward as to what you need to do exactly (pverpool => 3hat gas => lair, spire, speed, +lings if needed => add 2hat, scourge, den, evo, +sunk if needed => muta or hydra) while toss try many different things.
Also watching vods is like watching half a game.
Effort vs jaystar from ief is a recent replay. Great display of the build and a one sided zerg win.
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We will try to provide 3rd person commentary and two seperate FPview streams from the players involved.
this is especially awesome, imo
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Wow, im totally hyped about this, and I dont play PvZ. Please let there be mp3 downloads available so I can tune in.
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interesting thing, dont leave all the stuff up to the koreans !!
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This is a great topic and I love all of you. Really been having trouble working on my PvZ lately, I'll definitely be checking this out.
And I gotta say I love Day[9] for hooking up the community with so much of his high level analysis lately, he's really helping out ^.^
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
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On November 04 2009 08:35 numLoCK wrote:
This is a great topic and I love all of you. Really been having trouble working on my PvZ lately, I'll definitely be checking this out.
And I gotta say I love Day[9] for hooking up the community with so much of his high level analysis lately, he's really helping out ^.^
Yeah, this might be just fanboyism, but I have a feeling that if Day[9] coached a foreigner team and if that team practiced 8+ hours a day, they'd roll the hell out of all the proteams
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Kewl, not my matchup, but I can't miss hearing some input from some great analyzers on it!
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A foreign team coached by Day[9] would be awesome.
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"Paradigmatic display of Protoss not doing many mistakes, but succumbing to the Templar sniping."
What is this? Bisu didnt make any obvious errors but he was outmanouverd strategically by Shine. He had his strategy completly fail and ended up in a situation where Shine could take advantage on him, and did.
Not good play at all from Bisu and very good play by Shine I must say.
And this game for sure went to the player making the best desicions and not the player using the better race.
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On November 03 2009 19:01 Aesop wrote:
We might be switching the example games according to your suggestions. Stay tuned.
Maybe do the Movie build between Jaedong and Movie on hb ridge. Movie basically skips corsairs to get goon pressure then transitions up to speed zeals tempars and archons. Jaedongs 5 hatch spire build is destroyed.
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On November 04 2009 10:00 Artosis wrote:
amazing set of experts.
it truely is...
I'm looking forward to hearing from nony after he's been absent for so long
edit: damnit I got too excited and somehow overlooked the bottom of the OP
nony oystein showmatch with fpview??!!
Fuck I love you so much TL :'-)
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Nony + Day9 = Overkill :D
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Could it be possible to pull off a Scout/Reaver or scout/DT into carrier build in pro level game? The biggest thing scout has going against it is the long build times (and that's the main reason no one uses it), so it takes a while and you would require at least 2-3 stargates. But you will need those anyway if you go air.
And scouts have some things going for them: cannot be killed by two scourge, and kllls scourge faster (2 scouts one shot it), so they are much more durable. Also kills overlord faster and allows you to kill drones (3 for two shot 5 for one shot).
Not as effective against mass muta as corsair though, and also vulnerable against mass hydra.
So maybe it just shows that I haven't really played SC in ages.
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Hyuk vs Pure G1+G3 were sick PvZs from Protoss side with smart play by hiding templars, although Hyuk is like lux, makes alot of hydra and eats many storms
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After having watched Backho Vs Calm I have to agree that this was not an optimal pick.
While such a crazy strat might be a useful weapon to have in your repertoir, this is not going to change PvZ.
Better examples might have been Bisu vs Jaedong in the All-Star game,
or some game with good successful dark archon usage.
On November 04 2009 11:32 Nick_54 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2009 19:01 Aesop wrote:
We might be switching the example games according to your suggestions. Stay tuned. Maybe do the Movie build between Jaedong and Movie on hb ridge. Movie basically skips corsairs to get goon pressure then transitions up to speed zeals tempars and archons. Jaedongs 5 hatch spire build is destroyed.
While I'm having problems against this build myself, I'm fairly confident that it will work only very rarely against pro zergs. Had Jaedong not gotten greedy and skipped zergling speed this game would have looked very differently.
Movie is certainly a name to consider in general though.
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From the games I've seen, losing 4 templars in the middle of the map that are near full energy and have not used storm to the Zerg mutas usually is what puts a grave on the protoss in that match up. How detrimental would it be to delay the protoss push and replace 2 high templars with 1 dark archon with maelstorm? And have it act as a body guard for the High Templars.
I have heard a counter argument against this that it is really hard to get extra usage out of adding one more unit to all the things players already have to do. Very similar to how zerg dont add the queen/snare because while it is useful, adding one more unit you micro manage is just too much mechanically. That said, I feel that that dark archon, restricted for that single purpose of high templar defense for that mid-game vulnerability would be not too much addition mechanically. I do imagine it would put a greater strain on the 2 base protoss econ.
Game reference would be Free vs yCh[z-zone] in Acro, though the dark archon didnt really see good play.
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Dear Day[9],
Can you guzzle some more bear semen in between the strategic discussion and the showmatch? Wants moar day[9] showmatch commentary.
Love,
Team Liquid
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Can't believe I missed this thread, very much looking forward to it.
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On November 03 2009 18:36 samachking wrote:
FakeSteve Edit: DustBowl's dick is hard
I love Team Liquid
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im really hyped about this. Its very exciting for a protoss player this kind of deep analysis and awesome display of teaching work for the community.
Thanks tl.net for this...
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On November 04 2009 11:32 Nick_54 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2009 19:01 Aesop wrote:
We might be switching the example games according to your suggestions. Stay tuned. Maybe do the Movie build between Jaedong and Movie on hb ridge. Movie basically skips corsairs to get goon pressure then transitions up to speed zeals tempars and archons. Jaedongs 5 hatch spire build is destroyed.
How do you know you opponent is doing 5 hatch hydra if u skip sairs? Forgive me, I haven't seen this game, in case movie had some lucky probe scout or something. IMO u must go for a sair in order to counter 5 hat hydra, or else u could end up countering the wrong build
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It's kind of hard to find any memorable protoss wins against the recent 5-hatch build. Mainly because tosses are winning through various timing attacks and using early game pressure to win. Based mainly specific maps rather than any one counter BO.
Although the common theme throughout seems to be constant, constant pressure. Trying to prevent the drone whoring and macroing that's needed for the unstoppable hydra/muta army.
On November 04 2009 01:15 motbob wrote:You really need to have GosI[Flying] vs great as one of the example games. I watched that game and thought, "Oh, that's how you play pro-level PvZ."
You mean the game where great failed hard and his lings never scouted the initial zealots? Because if his lings had scouted the lots like they were supposed to, the game would've turned out a lot differently.
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PS that banner kicks fucking ass
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United States42676 Posts
On November 06 2009 01:04 baubo wrote:It's kind of hard to find any memorable protoss wins against the recent 5-hatch build. Mainly because tosses are winning through various timing attacks and using early game pressure to win. Based mainly specific maps rather than any one counter BO. Although the common theme throughout seems to be constant, constant pressure. Trying to prevent the drone whoring and macroing that's needed for the unstoppable hydra/muta army. Show nested quote +On November 04 2009 01:15 motbob wrote:You really need to have GosI[Flying] vs great as one of the example games. I watched that game and thought, "Oh, that's how you play pro-level PvZ." You mean the game where great failed hard and his lings never scouted the initial zealots? Because if his lings had scouted the lots like they were supposed to, the game would've turned out a lot differently.
Watch movie vs hero. Fake +1 zealot rush into harass into overwhelming 2 base attacks.
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I'm looking forward to this since Julyzerg vs Best as a zerg player it's my favourite game of all time in SC and i like discussing this game a lot . Also listening to day[9] is always helpful and enjoyable .
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This sounds great. Can't wait to see the commentaries and discussion.
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Hungary11291 Posts
On November 07 2009 06:10 Terranfan wrote:
I cant wait. Where do we watch this though?
Will announce that in time.
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Im a complete newb to downloading stuff. But how can I download fpvods?
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watching the day9 ZvPs would be good preparation for this I think, gosi[flying] vs great especially
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So the "PREMONITION" post had nothing to do with this?
Sure hope not..
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In light of last night's proleague match, I'd like to renew the request for analysis of the movie build. In addition to his famous win over jaedong, he used it to own hyun's face last night. This looks like a promising build and I'd like to hear what some top-level players have to say about it.
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On November 08 2009 13:46 Japakazol wrote:
In light of last night's proleague match, I'd like to renew the request for analysis of the movie build. In addition to his famous win over jaedong, he used it to own hyun's face last night. This looks like a promising build and I'd like to hear what some top-level players have to say about it.
I second this.
Also great banner, looking forward to the interviews!
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Should do ZerO vs. Bisu @ heartbreakridge Where he uses queens
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This timing is beautiful. I am a Protoss player that Plays Terran vs Zerg because of how i wasnt a big fan of having to FE. My TvZ win rate is about 20% so i hope this helps me go back to PvZ and maybe help me beat some zergs
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United States17042 Posts
we should really call these liquicasts >.>
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Ah thanks, found it in the calendar ... Im hung over and stupid today ..
Its really really interesting to listen to these discussions - thank you liquidpedia-crew!
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What did Day[9] said how much we must go forward in Jadeong youtube game?
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Noooo... I missed it because of the time translation thingy thingy T_T Awaits mp3.
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Sorry I couldn't listen live, but I'm excited to check out the mp3 if made available! Thanks!!
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United States17042 Posts
day said that the game should be started at 1:30 into the video, because that's where the game actually starts
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United States17042 Posts
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/SilverskY/HopeforRevolution.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Zicon_small.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Picon_small.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tsld/images/flags/no.png)
Oystein, ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tsld/images/flags/us.png)
Liquid`NonY, ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tsld/images/flags/de.png)
iNfeRnaL.
