• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 20:19
CEST 02:19
KST 09:19
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 20256RSL Season 1 - Final Week8[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16
Community News
Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17
StarCraft 2
General
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 Why doesnt SC2 scene costream tournaments Heaven's Balance Suggestions (roast me) Magnus Carlsen and Fabi review Clem's chess game. Who will win EWC 2025?
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo)
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion Corsair Pursuit Micro? Pro gamer house photos Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET The Casual Games of the Week Thread BWCL Season 63 Announcement
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 607 users

Liquipedia Strategic Q&A - Episode II

Forum Index > News
65 CommentsPost a Reply
1 2 3 4 Next All

Liquipedia Strategic Q&A - Episode II

Text byAesop
November 3rd, 2009 09:02 GMT
[image loading]

Banner by SilverskY

Hopin' for a Revolution
The Making of Modern PvZ


Liquipedia Strategic Q&A
Monday, 9th of November, 3.00 KST
Sunday, 8th of November, 19.00 CET
Sunday, 8th of November, 10.00 PST


Experts
[image loading][image loading][image loading] Oystein, [image loading][image loading] Liquid`NonY, [image loading][image loading] Day[9], [image loading][image loading] iNfeRnaL.


Outline

It's almost getting stale: Complaints about this matchup have been numerous in the weeks passed, and no solid judgement has yet been reached. Protoss are sparse in the OSL Ro16, but even fewer Terrans have made it through.

We won't talk about Imbalance, much. But we will analyse the implications of the 3 Base Spire into 5 hatch Hydra Build Order that is causing Protoss so much mischief and be looking into possible causes and solutions.

Preparation

As customary, we will have a set of games to watch beforehand and which we'll analyse live on stage. These are:
July vs. BeSt, Game 3 on Andromeda
Not the first usage ever, but the moment when the build mentioned inevitably surfaced in all its strength.
+ Show Spoiler [The VOD] +


Bisu vs. Shine, Game 3 on Heartbreak Ridge
Paradigmatic display of Protoss not doing many mistakes, but succumbing to the Templar sniping.
+ Show Spoiler [The VOD] +


BackHo vs. Calm, Game 1 on Eye of the Storm
Who would have thought some hope would come from Backho? But he takes a game off Calm with great DT usage.
+ Show Spoiler [The VOD] +



More Show

But we have more: A showmatch will be played afterwards, to settle the score between Aiur and the Zerg. The protagonists will be:
+ Show Spoiler [Dramatic Spoiler ...] +
[image loading][image loading] Liquid`NonY vs. [image loading][image loading] Oystein
<Andromeda>
<Heartbreak Ridge>
<Eye of the Storm>


We will try to provide 3rd person commentary and two seperate FPview streams from the players involved.

Got Questions?

To cover your needs, we need your questions. Ask them in the strategy forum thread.


Useful Liquipedia Links:
Liquipedia Feedback Thread
Liquipedia Players Page
Liquipedia Teams Page
PM a Liquipedia Staff Member: Aesop, Pholon, Imperator, mikeymoo, GHOSTCLAW, cgrinker
Facebook Twitter Reddit
ModeratorNon veritas sed auctoritas facit legem. | Liquipedia: Don't ask me, I'm retired.
samachking
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Bahrain4949 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-04 05:25:01
November 03 2009 09:36 GMT
#2
Awesome pick and topic, especially the people discussing it, although I disagree with the games being picked to discuss the topic, Backhos build is terrible and would die to any other build or even cutting some drones to get some hydra, its a timing attack that will only work once vs anyone, + the July/Best game is extremely outdated when discussing 3 hat spire to 5hat hydra, a lot more recent games would do better in presenting the topic/build.

FakeSteve Edit: DustBowl's dick is hard
"And then Earthlings discovered tools. Suddenly agreeing with friends could be a form of suicide or worse. But agreements went on, not for the sake of common sense, or decency, or self preservation, but for friendliness."
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42638 Posts
November 03 2009 09:51 GMT
#3
Yeah. BackHo vs Calm was just classic BackHo fail. Calm held off the first dt break the way every competent zerg will and was then like "ok, now he'll transition into ht because he's not an idiot so I'll transition with him". Which of course completely missed the point that BackHo never, ever, changes his build based upon what's actually going on in the game. He rolled his build order dice and it said dt.
It didn't work because the build was good. The build was trying to break the first few hydra and get a dt into the main and it completely failed at that. Overlord speed plus a decent wall rapes it. It worked because Calm was doing 4th level thinking whereas BackHo is incapable of anything beyond 1st.

The mass dt into breaking a part of the zerg defence and then creating more fronts with dts than he can handle is a build I am familiar with. The first attack needs to succeed for the build to work because then the dt that gets into his main can start distracting him and then his hydra start moving around and holes appear in his defence and the dts start ninjaing in through the gaps, both in his actual defences and also his attention. Once the first attack fails to break into his main the build has failed, pure and simple. Calm knew this and knew BackHo 'had' to transition into standard play. BackHo may have known this, it's unclear because being BackHo it wouldn't matter if he knew it or not, he still wouldn't change.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
GTR
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
51444 Posts
November 03 2009 09:53 GMT
#4
Holy crap, not only DUAL FPVODS but THE RETURN OF NONY?
Commentator
samachking
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Bahrain4949 Posts
November 03 2009 09:57 GMT
#5
On November 03 2009 18:51 KwarK wrote:
Yeah. BackHo vs Calm was just classic BackHo fail. Calm held off the first dt break the way every competent zerg will and was then like "ok, now he'll transition into ht because he's not an idiot so I'll transition with him". Which of course completely missed the point that BackHo never, ever, changes his build based upon what's actually going on in the game. He rolled his build order dice and it said dt.
It didn't work because the build was good. The build was trying to break the first few hydra and get a dt into the main and it completely failed at that. Overlord speed plus a decent wall rapes it. It worked because Calm was doing 4th level thinking whereas BackHo is incapable of anything beyond 1st.

The mass dt into breaking a part of the zerg defence and then creating more fronts with dts than he can handle is a build I am familiar with. The first attack needs to succeed for the build to work because then the dt that gets into his main can start distracting him and then his hydra start moving around and holes appear in his defence and the dts start ninjaing in through the gaps, both in his actual defences and also his attention. Once the first attack fails to break into his main the build has failed, pure and simple. Calm knew this and knew BackHo 'had' to transition into standard play. BackHo may have known this, it's unclear because being BackHo it wouldn't matter if he knew it or not, he still wouldn't change.


Another fact that indicated that it was an all in was the wall. Calm saw the wall which only let zealots out so he expected standard reaver/sair(well I thought he was going reaver/sair I dont know about calm) or a speedlot build, but then Backho used that really messed up timing push at a weird timing to counter Calm's drone whoring and then continued rallying stuff all over till he won with the mass drone kills.
"And then Earthlings discovered tools. Suddenly agreeing with friends could be a form of suicide or worse. But agreements went on, not for the sake of common sense, or decency, or self preservation, but for friendliness."
Aesop
Profile Joined October 2007
Hungary11291 Posts
November 03 2009 10:01 GMT
#6
We might be switching the example games according to your suggestions. Stay tuned.
ModeratorNon veritas sed auctoritas facit legem. | Liquipedia: Don't ask me, I'm retired.
s.a.y
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
Croatia3840 Posts
November 03 2009 10:22 GMT
#7
lol.

love "the return of the nony" :D
I am not good with quotes
538
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Hungary3932 Posts
November 03 2009 12:01 GMT
#8
Awesome experts and showmatch, looking forward to it!
BW fighting!
ReiKo
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Croatia1023 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-03 13:55:53
November 03 2009 13:55 GMT
#9
This is great, can't wait. Good job!

And of course, I hope there will be FPVOD's, VOD's and mp3's of this chit-chat-playing session.

Thanks!
Inzek
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
Chile802 Posts
November 03 2009 14:16 GMT
#10
Stork's sair/reaver could be tekd into consideration?
Stork FAN!!!
GHOSTCLAW
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States17042 Posts
November 03 2009 16:03 GMT
#11
On November 03 2009 23:16 Inzek wrote:
Stork's sair/reaver could be tekd into consideration?


many of stork's sair reaver games happened before 3 hat spire into 5 hat hydra was common. Even worse, most zergs didn't know about the build. However, there are example games of stork where he goes sair reaver against 3 hat spire into 5 hat hydra, although I don't remember any particularly memorable games where stork won against that zerg bo without the zerg making some sort of mistake earlier.
PhotographerLiquipedia. Drop me a pm if you've got questions/need help.
motbob
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States12546 Posts
November 03 2009 16:15 GMT
#12
You really need to have (P)GosI[Flying] vs (Z)great as one of the example games. I watched that game and thought, "Oh, that's how you play pro-level PvZ." I don't think Backho vs Calm is a good game to use as an example of the state of the matchup today or in the future, but flying vs great seems to me to be an indicator of things to come.
ModeratorGood content always wins.
Sentient66
Profile Joined July 2009
United States651 Posts
November 03 2009 16:29 GMT
#13
Wow, this looks like it's going to be awesome. Great choice of topic too.
seNsiX.421
Kimaker
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States2131 Posts
November 03 2009 16:41 GMT
#14
I think the Best vs. July game should certainly be kept as an example. It provides an overview of the beginnings of the mentality of the 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra and complies what would happen if the build continued on into "ULTRA"- (see what I did there?) late game. This provides some history as to why the MU is where it is now and how we've shifted from an era of such Protoss dominance to the modern meta-game. Conversely, I believe July's style is SO personalized that trying to analyze the vast majority of his builds is a waste when considered from a meta-game analytical standpoint. I mean, the man hidden proxy hatched in a zvz, he's not exactly "sane".
Entusman #54 (-_-) ||"Gold is for the Mistress-Silver for the Maid-Copper for the craftsman cunning in his trade. "Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall, But Iron — Cold Iron — is master of them all|| "Optimism is Cowardice."- Oswald Spengler
nosliw
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States2716 Posts
November 03 2009 16:46 GMT
#15
This is awesome! I look forward to this.
SwEEt[TearS]
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Canada1575 Posts
November 03 2009 17:58 GMT
#16
holy crap this will be good. sounds record the stream and sound :O
#1 arb fan -- Raelcun is Nuclear backwards. Rekrul is Lurker backwards. Grobyc is Cyborg backwards. Eniram is Marine backwards.
NonY
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
8748 Posts
November 03 2009 18:03 GMT
#17
On November 04 2009 01:15 motbob wrote:
You really need to have (P)GosI[Flying] vs (Z)great as one of the example games. I watched that game and thought, "Oh, that's how you play pro-level PvZ." I don't think Backho vs Calm is a good game to use as an example of the state of the matchup today or in the future, but flying vs great seems to me to be an indicator of things to come.

I will check out this game.
"Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'
Knickknack
Profile Joined February 2004
United States1187 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-03 19:49:41
November 03 2009 19:32 GMT
#18
Best lineup that can be expected, so looks good.
Although I don't expect anything particularly revealing. There will be talk about maps and general strategy. But each game in itself is an individual entity and just come down to every little decision aggregated. If a zerg like effort has their build down tight you must have your build down equally optimized to have a chance. And I suspect that is the main problem -- whether DA or sairs or whatever, toss don't have their builds down as tight, at least partly because their builds are more complex than zergs. Zergs build plan is very straight forward as to what you need to do exactly (pverpool => 3hat gas => lair, spire, speed, +lings if needed => add 2hat, scourge, den, evo, +sunk if needed => muta or hydra) while toss try many different things.


Also watching vods is like watching half a game.
Effort vs jaystar from ief is a recent replay. Great display of the build and a one sided zerg win.
| www.ArtofProtoss.vze.com |
0neheart
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States92 Posts
November 03 2009 21:53 GMT
#19


We will try to provide 3rd person commentary and two seperate FPview streams from the players involved.


this is especially awesome, imo
DyEnasTy
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States3714 Posts
November 03 2009 22:39 GMT
#20
Wow, im totally hyped about this, and I dont play PvZ. Please let there be mp3 downloads available so I can tune in.
Much better to die an awesome Terran than to live as a magic wielding fairy or a mindless sac of biological goop. -Manifesto7
1 2 3 4 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 9h 41m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 198
StarCraft: Brood War
NaDa 41
Stormgate
Vindicta6
League of Legends
Grubby4248
JimRising 674
Counter-Strike
Fnx 1854
taco 308
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox312
AZ_Axe90
Other Games
summit1g15216
tarik_tv9303
shahzam757
Maynarde185
Trikslyr69
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick2057
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 107
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota23013
League of Legends
• TFBlade873
Counter-Strike
• Shiphtur708
Other Games
• Scarra956
Upcoming Events
Esports World Cup
9h 41m
ByuN vs Astrea
Lambo vs HeRoMaRinE
Clem vs TBD
Solar vs Zoun
SHIN vs Reynor
Maru vs TriGGeR
herO vs Lancer
Cure vs ShoWTimE
Esports World Cup
1d 9h
Esports World Cup
2 days
Esports World Cup
3 days
CranKy Ducklings
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
5 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
5 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
5 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.