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On May 08 2009 11:44 Fishball wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2009 11:37 Incognito wrote:On May 08 2009 11:34 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On May 08 2009 11:33 Incognito wrote:
If there are dual mafias they have to kill each other to win please. Otherwise town = confused + screwed. I would have forced them to in the end, but as stated many times earlier by mafia members. Its in their best interest to rape the town first then eachother. They happened to trust eachother fully soon as they found eachother which in this game would have led to a double ko of the mafia. Um sure but the point is that if they don't know they have to kill each other till the end then they won't. Until you tell them. Telling them makes them nervous and makes them want to kill each other. Unless they want to be screwed/killed off first. Absolutely. I've already brought up this argument on page 51 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=91680¤tpage=51I've also discussed this topic on MSN with BC. Bottom line, Mafia parties can work together, but not win together. Who the hell would join a FFA Starcraft match, when you know you opponents would just gang up on you then ally end?
If you read the mafia role, you will see that it says nothing about us killing other mafia. Besides, its totally infeasible when you consider our numbers. We HAD to unite. If we hadn't, we would have lost badly.
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On May 08 2009 12:05 Fishball wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2009 11:58 Qatol wrote:On May 08 2009 11:44 Fishball wrote:On May 08 2009 11:37 Incognito wrote:On May 08 2009 11:34 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On May 08 2009 11:33 Incognito wrote:
If there are dual mafias they have to kill each other to win please. Otherwise town = confused + screwed. I would have forced them to in the end, but as stated many times earlier by mafia members. Its in their best interest to rape the town first then eachother. They happened to trust eachother fully soon as they found eachother which in this game would have led to a double ko of the mafia. Um sure but the point is that if they don't know they have to kill each other till the end then they won't. Until you tell them. Telling them makes them nervous and makes them want to kill each other. Unless they want to be screwed/killed off first. Absolutely. I've already brought up this argument on page 51 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=91680¤tpage=51I've also discussed this topic on MSN with BC. Bottom line, Mafia parties can work together, but not win together. Who the hell would join a FFA Starcraft match, when you know you opponents would just gang up on you then ally end? If you read the mafia role, you will see that it says nothing about us killing other mafia. Besides, its totally infeasible when you consider our numbers. We HAD to unite. If we hadn't, we would have lost badly. I know, I never mentioned it was an original rule. It just HAS to be done this way, or else, the game itself would be pointless. When BC told me, "One of the Mafia families would just forfeit.", "Town has no chance, etc.", I said it doesn't matter, even if town is totally wiped out. Even if it is just "symbolic" for the two families to kill each other, the game has to be carried out till the end, or else all would deem pointless. This is also why I said on page 51, the town should not be able to throw the game.
I just saw the multiple families as a way to make the mafia weaker early on. Mentioning to the town that we did not have to kill each other would have been nice, but we obviously weren't going to reveal that. You guys were depending on it and it actually turned hitting Bockit into the best hit of the game for us.
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On May 08 2009 13:09 Incognito wrote:Nice. But on I actually went to Ver accusing Mynock because I thought they were both mafia on opposite sides and I could possibly get one of you to freak out and kill everyone on my list (which I was going to add names to). Unfortunately the rules and the fact that you were already coordinated made my plan useless. That and the fact that Mynock wasn't mafia 
Corrected
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On May 08 2009 16:12 Camlito wrote:
LOL WTF I WAS FULLY RIGHT ON MY CLUES
THIS TOWN SUCKS, LISTEN TO MALONGO MORE.
/end Bragging rant
well played mafia... actually nah you didn't even do anything special.
Thanks a lot! Nice to hear all the hours I spent coordinating things were put to good use!
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On May 08 2009 16:39 Camlito wrote:
<3 you Qatol.
Trust me, you coulda helped the town with those hours and we would have lost still lol.
I admire your work though, and that was just a subtle anger post. Don't mind me when i do that. Well played, seriously.
<3 Yeah I know. I got called out for a few things I would have done as town haha. I DID think it was kinda a tragedy that your work was ignored. I was just hoping it was a testament to my trolling skills.
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On May 08 2009 17:21 iLoveKTF wrote:I want to be mafia next time btw. 
I totally would have traded you before this game!
(Ver and I have a theory that we were made mafia because we both asked BC to make us green before the game)
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On May 08 2009 17:34 Camlito wrote:
There is no way a generator made the roles btw ;p.
I still love being townie, but haven't had a full game as mafia. One game we owned and then Folca decided he's different, and the other stopped because it was thought to be imba. When that game restarted, i died first night.
Well BC already confirmed he tweaked the families. Apparently Ver and I were originally in the same family. He "balanced" the families more. Also I think he said he rolled the CKs off a list of 30 players instead of the full list? Because its a tricky role to play.
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On May 08 2009 17:40 Caller wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2009 17:24 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
fuck that, bandwagon lynch caller for being a bad vig ! ktf was a decent med ! well what the fuck was I supposed to do I pop bottles and hot hollow-points at each and all of you (Come on!)
Maybe it would have been a good idea NOT to hit the player you are sure is a townie?
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On May 09 2009 04:43 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2009 04:30 Ace wrote:I agree Ver, but there were some really, really dumb plays this game. Maybe a lot of it happened because people just "dont know" how to look at the game overall and not just within their roles. Some people probably just didn't care enough to try. Either way some of the decisions this game were pretty bad. In the end I doubt it would have mattered much because Mafia played this round very well and nothing short of a miracle would have won it for the town (or a double backstab by both mafia ) ETA: I also loved the overall format of this game. I think 2 mafia families + CKs was good this time around. It gives the Mafia an element of uncertainty they have to deal with also ^_^ The only thing i can think for this format, reduce overall player count so mafia size is decent, or have low kp mafia with higher numbers.due to the low number on each side neither wanted to hit the other out of fear of being overwhelmed by town. CK win conditions should also be less annoying (mainly chuiu's) Ltt's i think were fine, maybe reduce the number of things he needs from 4 to 3, but overall his was fun 
LTTs weren't the greatest win conditions either. He basically had to hope that 4 random townies were killed with absolutely no way to find them except luck of the draw? His become a lot more fun when you have more than 1 CK scrambling for those documents. I suggest giving documents to CKs only. Basically the CKs have to take each other out to win.
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On May 09 2009 05:02 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2009 04:47 Ace wrote:On May 09 2009 04:41 Tricode wrote:
@ACE i think i should get a break for some of my bad decisions. It's my first time being townie and second game. I have other things i could say though =\ but i guess i shouldn't, don't want to start a stupid argument. Say what you have to say, but if it's your first game don't worry. All of us made bad plays this game so don't think the blame is solely on you. @BC: 3 sounds fine. But as a CK how did you set them up so they would have to figure out who their targets were? The document idea is really good. The collecting objects idea was something my brother actually mentioned he did in larps when he was younger. As for how the CK found the people he needed. At first its infiltrating town to see if he can find them/rolecheck to find them. I think the rolecheck should be instituted a bit after he request the info at night but maybe still on same night (like 4-8 realtime hours). As for another way to find them, clues were left when someone took one from a townie, so vigi's or mafia could become his targets based on their hits.
Yes, but you are basically hoping that everyone with a document is a target. There were players like dreamflower and mikeymoo who were unlikely to take a hit at all. And LTT didn't have a very big chance of finding them on his own.
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On May 09 2009 05:09 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
eh, remember, he only talked to you, he never tried to infiltrate the town circle(to my knowledge) which increases his chance of finding people. But yeah, having ck's hunt down eachother could be interesting.
Was there even a town circle? (I honestly don't know.) The only circle I stumbled upon (vivi + showtime) I wiped out.
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On May 09 2009 06:23 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2009 06:22 L wrote:
I think the best possible suggestion for our games would be to remove the office of mayor and just add more interesting blue roles. mayor was only in this game to stimulate day one posting haha
Problem is that isn't how mayor turns out. At least one elected official is always a figurehead for the town when the roles are present. Especially this game since the 3x votes actually made a difference for like the first time ever.
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On May 09 2009 14:08 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
I think the role finder ability that was discussed in one of the mafia threads a while back should be tested. Maybe a Random role generator? So it allows people to build some trust. In case its not obvious by the name. Just generates a random townie name and you get that role.
Simple enough to allow the town to gain trust or find someone out. But not direct enough where you get the powerful alliances really fast or figure out mafias real fast. I think its a good balance between role finder and role checks.
Also I demand a petition for the mafia forum!
Rolefinder was one of the most imbalanced ideas we had...... It basically just lets all the blues find each other AND the townies are totally ignored. Plus it confirms townies, which is bad.
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On May 09 2009 16:05 Scamp wrote:
The post game discussion has been very interesting and I think I'm now more prepared to play a more active role in the next game played. I'll have to start PM-ing people more and getting more involved with all the discussions. The only PM I got all game was from Qatol and it made me think he was mafia! I guess I should have trusted my instincts more.
This was a very rough game for my first game, I must say. You really couldn't be sure about anyone, and then when the hits started rolling in with an incredible degree of accuracy....it's too hard not to panic.
Actually my PM to you was honest. It had absolutely nothing to do with my role.
(contents below)
+ Show Spoiler +
Don't worry about the more experienced players. Just because they're posting a lot and making accusations doesn't mean that they know what they're talking about any more than anyone else.
Seriously, the biggest thing you can do for this game is just be active. Participate in the game. When someone makes a post that you think is sketchy, call them out on it. When you agree with something, explain why.
Talking to people behind the scenes via PM is also a useful way of staying active. If you think a certain post might be construed as fishy, ask someone behind the scenes about it. I have other players "sanity check" my potential posts ALL THE TIME. Basically just watch people and make your own decisions on whom you think you can trust.
A big way to get better very quickly is to read some of the old games.
With that in mind, who do you think we should be looking at as our next suspect? Who looks suspicious/innocent to you?
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On May 09 2009 17:20 Scamp wrote:
Hey you saved it. Cool beans.
It was that last question that clued me in that you really could be mafia. I suppose it could have just been a friendly question in order to get me thinking and posting but it seemed weird that you would just ask something like that. I kind of got the feeling it was "gauge the new player and if he's insightful then kill him quickly."
But even though you were mafia after all that may not have been the case anyway.
I really should have sent out more PMs and trusted my instincts. Turns out (after the fact, of course) that they were pretty good. Things just got so crazy and confusing that it became impossible to really find someone I felt I could trust. Even though I never protected a mafia I was unfortunate that the mafia never hit anyone I protected other than Pyrr who was double-hit and RoL who was hit when I was also hit. I would have PM-ed whoever I saved even though Qatol's explanation as to why I shouldn't made sense.
Medic is a very stressful role.
Yeah medic is a really hard role to play. 2 saves is incredible for a new player. Excellent work.
And I wasn't checking for insight tbh haha. At that point, Ver was doing the hitlists. I was just trying to get you active in the game since it was so inactive.
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On May 09 2009 17:32 Camlito wrote:You did a great job scamp . Better than previous medics. but.. Scamp protects malongo Mafia family 1 hits Camlito x2
We were sooo happy when that went through haha. None of us read you as a veteran. If it makes you feel better, if I were a medic, you would have gotten a prot every cycle, especially early in the game!
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On May 09 2009 22:10 Ace wrote:
As for balance, this game was balanced. The 2 Mafia would have eventually had to kill each other at some point but the game just ended because of how lopsided it was looking. If the town had managed to kill even 2 more mafia no one would be complaining about balance. From the Mafia point of view they somewhat have to work together if the town is on their shit or else they will both be wiped out.
Incorrect. We were allowed to work together from the start. There was never any condition for us that we had to kill the other family.
To make this perfectly clear: BC told us right after night 1 that we were allowed to unite. Us sharing the full mafia list had nothing to do with anything. There was never a condition where we had to kill each other. Instead, we were told we COULD kill each other, or we could unite. It was totally our choice.
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On May 10 2009 01:50 Malongo wrote:
This is so wrong people. The moment both mafias "found" eachother there was no more balance with these winning conditions. I mean to be "perfectly balanced" the game ended day 5, theres no way you can call this perfect balance even with the town inactive and not playing well.
Then why was chuiu's game seen as balanced possibly favoring the mafia? Same mafia count. Same KP. There was 1 less vigi but 2 veterans. There were 2 CKs but no millers. And there was no sheriff. Oh yeah, and the mafia could kill each other night 1.... Seems to me like the mafia took a pretty big hit when comparing this game to last game.
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On May 10 2009 03:20 Malongo wrote:
I think its clear that Malongo and Mynock share opinions in this case. For those that call this "perfect balance" lets make a small summary of the lynchs (the power of the town):
Day 1: Qatol Mayor, Inerpinept lynched.
Day 2: Multiple discussion, 3 people to lych nobody mafia, versatile lynched.
Day 3: Qatol get away saving his ass, Quickstriker lunched.
Day 4: Qatol annihilated.
Day 5: Town gets 2 mafia, inactivity kills town, mafia sway the votes GG.
I mean wheres the balance? Even with full town activity day 5 mafia could have easily sway the lynch, and in that point numbers were like 25 or so townies to 9 mafia. Assuming the game is "perfectly balanced" means town has to lynch forcefully day 2 or 3, and even then i doubt the result could have change. Lets suppose Qatol lynched day 3, then day 4 what? monoxide? quickstriker? we would have come to day 5 in exaclty the same position AT BEST with an extra mafia lynched. I really think calling the game balanced is nonsense, mafia won i have no trouble about that, they played well and the town bad. However this game was not balanced. Period.
Assuming perfect balance, the town figures out a way to decrease KP before day 5..... With any previous setup, the town still would have lost if they only managed to find 1 mafia on their own before day 5. Are you trying to say the town should be allowed to miss on the first 3 lynches + a vigi hit + lose another vigi without him using his hit and still have a reasonable chance to win?
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EPT
