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Eversince
Profile Joined October 2015
Philippines2301 Posts
July 04 2019 06:44 GMT
#921
On July 04 2019 14:09 Eversince wrote:
I was curious because m!HF can push t!ES there super easy. He was early but didn't vote me until later. I thought it was opportunistic! I had a meta read on HF (That I'm lynch with fire yesterday), wasn't ENITRELY wrong to have though becauses here HF playing townie! I get why he would not like my meta read when I can't prove it. I wanted to make sure m!HF isn't pushing easy town lynch. So I talked to him. He still wants to lynch me and I feel like his reason is crap but I think it's more likely t!HF here is trying to reach for straws than m!HF kill the easiest town! I get how he got there and I felt for a second there he wash pushing on me for easy reasons..That's why I said I don't think it's coming from m!HF but you can't say his read there isn't weak in reasons.


To explain!!
Life's too short to be black and white. Make the world tie-dye!
Eversince
Profile Joined October 2015
Philippines2301 Posts
July 04 2019 06:48 GMT
#922
The way I see it though is either Eywa/Pand or Grack. I have not had the time to do vote analysis yet so meh.
Life's too short to be black and white. Make the world tie-dye!
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
July 04 2019 06:59 GMT
#923
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Eversince I noticed you'd just discussed it right after I posted. Can I ask what in particular you liked about Holyflare's reasoning?

I went through Holyflare's filter and there's some stuff I don't like but I'm not sure what it means. Need to think more.

Holyflare, why do you think Pandain is town? Or do you still? What do you think about Grackaroni?
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
July 04 2019 07:15 GMT
#924
Also, I reread Eversince's filter. I still kinda think she is town but I'm not going to try and save her again, if she is lynched so be it. I accept the possibility that I could be wrong.

The vast majority of her filter is defending herself, which makes a ton of clutter and makes it hard to know what she's actually been doing. But occasionally she has been pushing her own ideas and suggesting things, it feels to me like there's a thought process behind it. I fear I'm underestimating her mafia capabilities though, boredom is a powerful motivation.
Eversince
Profile Joined October 2015
Philippines2301 Posts
July 04 2019 07:19 GMT
#925
@Truffles See me and HF confo.I can go dig up quotes when I get home.
HF is just trying to figure thing out there. I just eventually said 'screw this!' and moved on because I don't actually think HF is mafia for it.
Life's too short to be black and white. Make the world tie-dye!
Eversince
Profile Joined October 2015
Philippines2301 Posts
July 04 2019 07:31 GMT
#926
No time for quotes, if you want a place to start pg44/45 I think is good.
Life's too short to be black and white. Make the world tie-dye!
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
July 04 2019 07:37 GMT
#927
I am going to say nothing more on Eversince since all the evidence is wildly abundant and hopefully getting her to do something that isn't defending herself will make her generate some semblance of content.

I don't think she understands the points against her totally still either lol.
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
July 04 2019 07:39 GMT
#928
On July 04 2019 15:59 Trfel wrote:
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Eversince I noticed you'd just discussed it right after I posted. Can I ask what in particular you liked about Holyflare's reasoning?

I went through Holyflare's filter and there's some stuff I don't like but I'm not sure what it means. Need to think more.

Holyflare, why do you think Pandain is town? Or do you still? What do you think about Grackaroni?


Elaborate.

I've lost my read on Pandain after the deadline slightly. It was more the interaction with Jock and myself with him there calming jock down with reasonable assumptions that made me town read him but I realise this can be someone trying to pocket me with perfect information.
Jockmcplop
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom9705 Posts
July 04 2019 07:42 GMT
#929
On July 04 2019 16:39 Holyflare wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2019 15:59 Trfel wrote:
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Eversince I noticed you'd just discussed it right after I posted. Can I ask what in particular you liked about Holyflare's reasoning?

I went through Holyflare's filter and there's some stuff I don't like but I'm not sure what it means. Need to think more.

Holyflare, why do you think Pandain is town? Or do you still? What do you think about Grackaroni?


Elaborate.

I've lost my read on Pandain after the deadline slightly. It was more the interaction with Jock and myself with him there calming jock down with reasonable assumptions that made me town read him but I realise this can be someone trying to pocket me with perfect information.


Where are you on rayn currently hf (other than the fact he voted for someone you also think is scum)?
RIP Meatloaf <3
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
July 04 2019 07:55 GMT
#930
On July 04 2019 16:42 Jockmcplop wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2019 16:39 Holyflare wrote:
On July 04 2019 15:59 Trfel wrote:
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Eversince I noticed you'd just discussed it right after I posted. Can I ask what in particular you liked about Holyflare's reasoning?

I went through Holyflare's filter and there's some stuff I don't like but I'm not sure what it means. Need to think more.

Holyflare, why do you think Pandain is town? Or do you still? What do you think about Grackaroni?


Elaborate.

I've lost my read on Pandain after the deadline slightly. It was more the interaction with Jock and myself with him there calming jock down with reasonable assumptions that made me town read him but I realise this can be someone trying to pocket me with perfect information.


Where are you on rayn currently hf (other than the fact he voted for someone you also think is scum)?


He agrees with me and pretty much talked about the grack meta on Eversince first. He's town until further notice.
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
July 04 2019 07:55 GMT
#931
On July 04 2019 16:55 Holyflare wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2019 16:42 Jockmcplop wrote:
On July 04 2019 16:39 Holyflare wrote:
On July 04 2019 15:59 Trfel wrote:
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Eversince I noticed you'd just discussed it right after I posted. Can I ask what in particular you liked about Holyflare's reasoning?

I went through Holyflare's filter and there's some stuff I don't like but I'm not sure what it means. Need to think more.

Holyflare, why do you think Pandain is town? Or do you still? What do you think about Grackaroni?


Elaborate.

I've lost my read on Pandain after the deadline slightly. It was more the interaction with Jock and myself with him there calming jock down with reasonable assumptions that made me town read him but I realise this can be someone trying to pocket me with perfect information.


Where are you on rayn currently hf (other than the fact he voted for someone you also think is scum)?


He agrees with me and pretty much talked about the grack meta on Eversince first. He's town until further notice.


The Eversince meta on grack *
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
July 04 2019 08:00 GMT
#932
The Most Sucky Case You Will Ever See
  • Read on Pandain changing for no reason
    + Show Spoiler [Explanation] +
    Early on, Holyflare was suspicious of Pandain:
    On July 02 2019 16:28 Holyflare wrote:
    I don't like Pandain deciding to town read trfel, hearing trfel say his read wasn't that strong but THEN saying "I don't think trfel would make such a strong town read as mafia because that ties his hands."

    Feels like you ignored everything trfel was saying. Don't hate the picking up on grack and conversion later but the trfel thing, especially downgrading your read after for something not relevant at all (the bolded thing you highlighted) looks like you're just winging your read and aren't thinking it through.
    On July 02 2019 17:25 Holyflare wrote:
    (...)
    Nothing really unique to add. Disappointed nobody even quoted my pandain post, I thought it was quite good.
    On July 03 2019 20:07 Holyflare wrote:
    Show nested quote +
    On July 03 2019 19:26 Jockmcplop wrote:
    Here's a spreadsheet, it was really easy to make this time, please tell me if I've got anything wrong.

    [image loading]


    This is wrong, I quite clearly called out pandain and you piggybacked it but it's not here. Me being lazy doesn't make me mafia though.
    Later, he posted and said Pandain was town, for no reason:
    On July 04 2019 01:37 Holyflare wrote:
    I think Pandain and eywa are town for what it's worth. I wouldn't clear rayn because his logic doesn't really hold up but I don't want to get in a shit fight about it so I'll ignore it and see how it goes. I got the feeling jock was overzealous townie that thought he had something on me and that looked good but he's pushed it a smidge too far for my liking so I'm downgrading him.

    Conversion/grack/es/rayn/trfl/jock

    It's a big list but I really haven't given a shit about the game until now so I'll narrow it down when I'm home.
  • Evolution of reads
    + Show Spoiler [Explanation] +
    On July 04 2019 01:37 Holyflare wrote:
    I think Pandain and eywa are town for what it's worth. I wouldn't clear rayn because his logic doesn't really hold up but I don't want to get in a shit fight about it so I'll ignore it and see how it goes. I got the feeling jock was overzealous townie that thought he had something on me and that looked good but he's pushed it a smidge too far for my liking so I'm downgrading him.

    Conversion/grack/es/rayn/trfl/jock

    It's a big list but I really haven't given a shit about the game until now so I'll narrow it down when I'm home.
    Let's primarily work from this post, as this is the first real time Holyflare has provided reads in this game and it is also when he says he is starting to take the game seriously.

    Seventeen minutes later:
    On July 04 2019 01:54 Holyflare wrote:
    If I had to choose between Grack or ES for a lynch I'd probably choose grack tbh. His filter is void of literally aby content. People are town, he guesses I could maybe be mafia. Es is town because of bathtub? Drunk posting that doesn't even look drunk?

    Dumb and probably mafia.
    Honestly this just feels lazy. Seventeen minutes after having a large POE list with everyone seemingly equal, he comes up with a probable mafia read. I don't understand the progression from pushing Eversince to a POE to scumreading Grackaroni back to voting for Eversince? Holyflare clearly said he thought both Eversince and Grackaroni were mafia:
    On July 03 2019 19:12 Holyflare wrote:
    Show nested quote +
    On July 03 2019 18:12 Pandain wrote:
    On July 03 2019 18:08 Holyflare wrote:
    On July 03 2019 17:51 Pandain wrote:
    I don't think ES is crazy/meta enough to do something like that. It's obvious she's been desperate to survive, if she was mafia she would jump at the opportunity to lynch someone she has expressed doubts about before.

    @conf, HF, Rayn please comment on this.


    I don't agree with your conclusion. She's meekly soft defended grack all game and then sprinkled "hesitance" and done nothing with it. They could easily be mafia together, or she could know he's town. Both things point to a mafia es because grack looks absolutely shit and a free lynch for literally anyone to hop onto.


    She's said several times that she might be up for lynching Grack. It would not be suspicious at all for her to vote Grack if she thought it was the only way to not get lynched.

    But she refused to do this. The fact she refuses to lynch someone who you think "Looks absolutely shit and a free lynch" should strike you as townie, particuarly when it's the only way she could avoid getting lynched.

    It also doesn't matter if she knows he's town. If she's mafia, she's trying to survive.

    You still can't justify mafia ES not joining the grack train.


    I can because I can simultaneously think Grack is mafia and do.
    Really it's just the POE list here that is rather out of place. Why does he go from having two strong scumreads, presumably solving the game, then start taking the game seriously only to instantaneously arrive at the same two strong scumreads?
  • Not doing anything at End of Day
    + Show Spoiler [Explanation] +
    To me this is the strongest point. About two and a half hours before the lynch, Holyflare says that he would slightly prefer lynching Grackaroni over Eversince:
    On July 04 2019 01:54 Holyflare wrote:
    If I had to choose between Grack or ES for a lynch I'd probably choose grack tbh. His filter is void of literally aby content. People are town, he guesses I could maybe be mafia. Es is town because of bathtub? Drunk posting that doesn't even look drunk?

    Dumb and probably mafia.
    Day 1 vote count
    Vote Count, Eight Minutes to EoD
    Eversince: (5) raynpelikoneet, Eywa-, Holyflare, Conversion, Grackaroni
    Grackaroni: (4) Trfel, Pandain, jockmcplop, Eversince

    If Holyflare changed his vote to Grackaroni, Grackaroni would be lynched instead of Eversince. Let's assume that Eversince's posts and discussion with Holyflare caused Holyflare to change his mind and prefer lynching Eversince to lynching Grackaroni. But even still, Holyflare very obviously preferred lynching Grackaroni to lynching anyone else. With obvious shenanigans coming (evidence to follow), Holyflare here could either: push hard for an Eversince lynch to try and make sure he gets his preferred lynch, or vote for Grackaroni, a lynch he is happy with, to prevent shenanigans off of his preferred lynch targets.

    Posts in the thread in the last eight minutes of Day 1, making it clear that shenanigans were incoming:
    On July 04 2019 04:24 Pandain wrote:
    I'm strongly for a Conv lynch (if Grack won't get lynched) just because I have town reads on everyone except Grack and him.

    Jock is way too active. Rayn is way too active. HF could be scum but seems townie.
    Trfel is playing like his town games. Eywa was really townie with his exhcnage with me.

    Who else wants to lynch Conv (or grack)
    On July 04 2019 04:26 Jockmcplop wrote:
    Pandain switch to conversion with me
    On July 04 2019 04:26 Pandain wrote:
    Show nested quote +
    On July 04 2019 04:26 Jockmcplop wrote:
    Pandain switch to conversion with me


    I switched.

    Who else wants to join?
    On July 04 2019 04:27 Pandain wrote:
    If ES and Trfel switch ES is saved
    Grack vote conv
    Instead of voting for Grackaroni or persuading people not to switch votes, Holyflare argues with Eversince, accomplishing neither of these goals. He does make one post directed to the thread as a whole:
    On July 04 2019 04:29 Holyflare wrote:
    Show nested quote +
    On July 04 2019 04:28 Pandain wrote:
    HF no idea why you're talking when you're never gonna change your mind in a million years


    Because I know you tools will do some stupid shit and she won't get lynched.
    But if he really wanted to prevent the shenanigans and the Conversion lynch, it would have been much more effective to push for Eversince and talk to the people present, instead of arguing with his extremely strong scumread. Holyflare carries a lot of influence and generally gets his way in mafia games, but here it feels like he just kinda let it happen.

  • Arguing with his strong scumread, Eversince
    + Show Spoiler [Explanation] +
    I'm not going to provide quotes on this one, there are way too many. Choose a random page in the thread and you'll probably be over your head in examples.

    Holyflare has spent a very significant amount of his filter arguing with his strong scumread. It's fairly well-known that arguing with scumreads isn't recommended, as they are likely mafia, so of course they will lie and never agree with you and have no town explanation for your points. Of course it is necessary to discuss with scumreads to help confirm your read, but Holyflare in this game does this in great excess, I've never seen him do this before. Very rarely does Holyflare address the thread, even in his large case (the largest case I've seen Holyflare make, by far), he's just trying to convince Eversince that she is mafia.
Conclusion: I dunno, frankly this case kinda sucks. But Holyflare's play this game still strikes me as odd, I can't shake that. Not sure if I ever will. He's probably just town and he'll probably just get night killed sometime soon and I can breathe a sigh of relief, but whatever. At least my case looks pretty, right?

@Holyflare, please feel free to address the points I've brought up and help me to understand. If you're town it would make me feel a whole lot better about you at least. No need to explain a ton, I know my case is weak.
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
July 04 2019 08:04 GMT
#933
You're right it sucks :D
raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43270 Posts
July 04 2019 08:06 GMT
#934
Why didnt you vote for grack though at the time in case you thought hes better lynch than ES?
table for two on a tv tray
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
July 04 2019 08:08 GMT
#935
On July 04 2019 17:06 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Why didnt you vote for grack though at the time in case you thought hes better lynch than ES?


I am almost 100% certain eversince returned and said something I hated and I said the words "I think I'm fine leaving my vote where it is".
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
July 04 2019 08:08 GMT
#936
I was also on the train home anyway and ain't nothing getting done then. Only get signal at stations for like 2 seconds to make a post.
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
July 04 2019 08:09 GMT
#937
On July 04 2019 02:38 Holyflare wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2019 02:34 Grackaroni wrote:
On July 03 2019 18:08 Holyflare wrote:
On July 03 2019 17:51 Pandain wrote:
I don't think ES is crazy/meta enough to do something like that. It's obvious she's been desperate to survive, if she was mafia she would jump at the opportunity to lynch someone she has expressed doubts about before.

@conf, HF, Rayn please comment on this.

I don't agree with your conclusion. She's meekly soft defended grack all game and then sprinkled "hesitance" and done nothing with it. They could easily be mafia together, or she could know he's town. Both things point to a mafia es because grack looks absolutely shit and a free lynch for literally anyone to hop onto.


On July 04 2019 01:54 Holyflare wrote:
If I had to choose between Grack or ES for a lynch I'd probably choose grack tbh. His filter is void of literally aby content. People are town, he guesses I could maybe be mafia. Es is town because of bathtub? Drunk posting that doesn't even look drunk?

Dumb and probably mafia.

+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]


Difference being I read your filter in between those posts. It's bad.


Read grack's filter on train posted this.
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
July 04 2019 08:09 GMT
#938
On July 04 2019 03:11 Holyflare wrote:
I think I'll leave my vote where it is in the meanwhile...


Posted this when Eversince returned.
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
July 04 2019 08:09 GMT
#939
On July 04 2019 17:04 Holyflare wrote:
You're right it sucks :D
I guess we'll do this the old-fashioned way where I just wait for you to die. Yay me.

Honestly building long posts is how I think sometimes.
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
July 04 2019 08:10 GMT
#940
On July 04 2019 03:02 Eversince wrote:
Looks like I'm die..

I'm try to catch up but I have to go take care of animals. No promises.


It was after this post which was essentially an afk excuse when under pressure. Keep seeing them every time I bring up a case or valid points on her.
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