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[M][N]MafiacalFeast I - Page 166

Forum Index > TL Mafia
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Calix
Profile Joined August 2016
3379 Posts
April 26 2018 08:52 GMT
#3301
On April 26 2018 17:33 currentlyhomeless wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 26 2018 16:51 Calix wrote:
Teams are often RNGed because it avoids this host meta that you're using. Anything else is asking for trouble. Thus your logic that rayn would instantly die after HF is flawed.


he had a red check on him. He would have died because of that combined with “if he is town why is he still alive”


I assumed you were referring to killing HF at ANY point in the game, my bad. If you're saying that killing HF on N1, for instance, would have lost you the game then I will say that it wasn't guaranteed that ExO would check rayn N2 in that scenario because his reads (and everyone else's) would be influenced by the kill to an extent. ExO might have checked a suspicious townie (or Oats) which could also have massively influenced the game.

On April 26 2018 17:35 currentlyhomeless wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 26 2018 17:03 Calix wrote:
To give my two cents on night kills, I think a bit of both strategies is advisable depending on the game state and the skillset of the remaining townies. If you only focus on killing solvy players or those with good reads, you risk town piecing together your strategy or wondering why you're still alive (if you survive to late-game). If you only focus on minimising information that town gets then you risk the remaining active town players forming a town circle, using POE, making iron-clad cases on mafia, etc.

In this instance, I think the GB kill was fine but following that up with killing the AFK replacement was a massive tip-off that the mafia was fine with the current game state. I'd argue that's more information given than just killing someone with good reads or who is solvy because it tells town that they're on the wrong track.


we didn’t lose because of the kills, that much is for sure.

the only kill that was objectively bad was the Vivax one but we were already in a losing position.

If there is a single action that lost us the game it was the RB. Everything else was down to our play.


I don't think anyone would argue that roleblocking a PR (in isolation) is ever a bad play though. If rayn had received the gun then Eversince would not have been lynched D2 and either I get lynched or I try-hard and get someone else lynched. Roleblocking Eversince definitely changed the game a lot in that sense.

This is a lot of words to say "even one night kill/ action can influence the game a lot" lol. I think town would almost certainly have lost without the PRs this game.

Parity Cop definitely swung the game around in town's favour and that's not something mafia had a great deal of control over. In retrospect, ExO's play was more blue-oriented (he was never VT with his play but I thought he was mafia not blue) but you'd need meta to figure that one out and you hadn't played with him before. So it would have been difficult for the mafia to have found him early, I think.

In general, I think alignment-checking roles are OP and should not be used ever because they require no skill and deny mafia mislynches. Godfather/ Miller/ Framer are not good 'counters' in my opinion.
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
April 26 2018 09:47 GMT
#3302
Just nk the people that speak. It's always a game winning strategy.
Fecalfeast
Profile Joined January 2010
Canada11355 Posts
April 26 2018 15:04 GMT
#3303
For the record I rng every role every game.
ModeratorINFLATE YOUR POST COUNT; PLAY TL MAFIA
NocturneMage
Profile Joined July 2015
United Kingdom1965 Posts
April 26 2018 18:58 GMT
#3304
not much to say, followed the game from the sidelines and kinda agree with gb here...got the impression wrongly that hf/rayn were both mafia shitting up the thread. rayn's filter was disjointed enough from the get go and think it lacked his town passion that at least I'm used to in town rayn. just my opinion.

re: setup, this struck me

On April 26 2018 17:52 Calix wrote:
Parity Cop definitely swung the game around in town's favour and that's not something mafia had a great deal of control over. In retrospect, ExO's play was more blue-oriented (he was never VT with his play but I thought he was mafia not blue) but you'd need meta to figure that one out and you hadn't played with him before. So it would have been difficult for the mafia to have found him early, I think.

In general, I think alignment-checking roles are OP and should not be used ever because they require no skill and deny mafia mislynches. Godfather/ Miller/ Framer are not good 'counters' in my opinion.


this game didn't seem unbalanced. not bh here but some insights on tl blue role play.

like can't really get into hts' brain as to why she balanced the game this way, but this is probably one of the few times - maybe the only time - where I've seen a parity cop get those checks off this early. there are some people on this site who are extremely good at blue hunting too. also unlucky for scum that gf flipped....had it been anyone else, they at least had the option of wifoming a miller somewhat in the setup.

inv roles on this site don't think have been played nearly as well as you may think, most cops myself included will check lurkers and not "sleepers" or the hail mary play, and and there's been lots of lurkers in tl games all around. people do even worse as tracker.

I remember when I first joined tl there was some thread going down about town losing or some shit because blue play on this site is generally awful. can't say it's better or worse, but inv roles have not directly correlated slam dunk town wins. even when inv roles do make "good" checks.

+ Show Spoiler +
and this game didn't even have a rolecop. the mafia rolecops I've seen generally help with at least one blue nk.
also most blues on this site claim way too early before they can get critical information out as needed.


like I cohosted once with bh and bh says that alignment cop is op but not so much parity. fwiw.

idk tldr here is that inv roles exist for a reason. no reason she couldn't have just knocked out gunsmith and just gone cop versus framer. or done tracker gunsmith, but I've played enough hts games where I know she absolutely would have made gf untrackable.
Vlad for life. SKT supporter. I policy lynch all dota players, end of.
Calix
Profile Joined August 2016
3379 Posts
April 26 2018 19:23 GMT
#3305
On April 27 2018 03:58 NocturneMage wrote:
not much to say, followed the game from the sidelines and kinda agree with gb here...got the impression wrongly that hf/rayn were both mafia shitting up the thread. rayn's filter was disjointed enough from the get go and think it lacked his town passion that at least I'm used to in town rayn. just my opinion.

re: setup, this struck me

Show nested quote +
On April 26 2018 17:52 Calix wrote:
Parity Cop definitely swung the game around in town's favour and that's not something mafia had a great deal of control over. In retrospect, ExO's play was more blue-oriented (he was never VT with his play but I thought he was mafia not blue) but you'd need meta to figure that one out and you hadn't played with him before. So it would have been difficult for the mafia to have found him early, I think.

In general, I think alignment-checking roles are OP and should not be used ever because they require no skill and deny mafia mislynches. Godfather/ Miller/ Framer are not good 'counters' in my opinion.


this game didn't seem unbalanced. not bh here but some insights on tl blue role play.

like can't really get into hts' brain as to why she balanced the game this way, but this is probably one of the few times - maybe the only time - where I've seen a parity cop get those checks off this early. there are some people on this site who are extremely good at blue hunting too. also unlucky for scum that gf flipped....had it been anyone else, they at least had the option of wifoming a miller somewhat in the setup.

inv roles on this site don't think have been played nearly as well as you may think, most cops myself included will check lurkers and not "sleepers" or the hail mary play, and and there's been lots of lurkers in tl games all around. people do even worse as tracker.

I remember when I first joined tl there was some thread going down about town losing or some shit because blue play on this site is generally awful. can't say it's better or worse, but inv roles have not directly correlated slam dunk town wins. even when inv roles do make "good" checks.

+ Show Spoiler +
and this game didn't even have a rolecop. the mafia rolecops I've seen generally help with at least one blue nk.
also most blues on this site claim way too early before they can get critical information out as needed.


like I cohosted once with bh and bh says that alignment cop is op but not so much parity. fwiw.

idk tldr here is that inv roles exist for a reason. no reason she couldn't have just knocked out gunsmith and just gone cop versus framer. or done tracker gunsmith, but I've played enough hts games where I know she absolutely would have made gf untrackable.


I wasn't calling the setup unbalanced. Setup is fine by TL standards. I was saying that Parity Cop was what turned the tides in town's favour. That isn't unbalanced in this setup. That's the natural result of a Parity Cop getting off unmolested checks on two living players despite Roleblocker and Godfather existing.

But I, personally, dislike alignment-checking roles because they make mafia's job harder while not adding much more in terms of gameplay. If I want to add investigative roles then I would use Tracker or a killing role or an extremely neutered Investigative role like Motion Detector, etc. The non-killing ones add a bit more ambiguity to investigative results and the killing ones rely on reads, not mechanics.

Players being shit with blue roles doesn't mean we add stronger blue roles. It means players should learn to get good at playing blue

I actually think your sentence about the Godfather/ Miller WIFOM strengthens my argument. No game has been improved by the addition of "is the cop check legit or is that player a Miller/ Godfather?" discussion ever. It is repetitive because the obvious answer is just to evaluate the player's posts. Since that's what you should be doing anyway, it's reasonable to conclude that Cop just adds unnecessary mechanics discussion to the game. It usually confirms the Cop as town but there are better ways of going about that with almost any other blue role.

Anyway, I am writing this to explain my anti-Cop stance, not to talk shit about how people balance their games. I don't expect to suddenly convert TL Mafia to my way of thinking.
Skynx
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
Turkey7150 Posts
April 26 2018 19:24 GMT
#3306
gg, much love to hosts
"When seagulls follow the troller, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea. Thank you very much" - King Cantona | STX 4 eva
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
April 26 2018 19:34 GMT
#3307
all vanilla all the time is the only way to play
raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43270 Posts
April 30 2018 09:32 GMT
#3308
On April 26 2018 07:23 currentlyhomeless wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 26 2018 02:23 raynpelikoneet wrote:
basically i wasted one and a half week of almost all my free time for someone who is in my team to just fuck me over in the end.

that's how i feel like. i am sorry for my bad play at times but still, that's how i feel like.


Sorry you feel this way. I think you are wrong, we had 0 chance of winning after Vivax died and then town didn’t pick up on the WIFOM. HF can probably tell you better than I can what his gauge of the situation was.

At any rate the objective fact is that if we shot HF N2 you would’ve been insta lynched by this town afterward cause the cop had a red check on you. I’m not sure how you are forgetting that and still saying shooting HF n2 was the right play. It was hard enough not to get them to lynch into the check D3.

It might be true we "had 0 chance of winning after Vivax died" but you never gave it any chance. When Tubesock made his first post on the next day you just immediately "conceded" and threw away everything and fakeclaimed Jailer. It is sometimes amazing what townies can actually do for mafia... Like i would never expect Eversince and Skynx basically claiming mafia as town.

The thing is you never even gave our plan any chance to work.
table for two on a tv tray
raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43270 Posts
April 30 2018 09:34 GMT
#3309
Also you effectively killed Oatsmaster by shooting Damdred slot because there was never any mafia team ever in the game anymore where Oatsmaster is not present.

It is not always what you say or do, it's often times what you dont.
table for two on a tv tray
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