EPTyay vote thread! \o/
[M] Classic Mafia
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rsoultin
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yay vote thread! \o/ | ||
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rsoultin
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On March 16 2018 01:52 KelsierSC wrote: /in I will play this time >> | ||
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I, too, would prefer no SK, as they always seem to kill me ;o; | ||
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On March 16 2018 21:10 Conversion wrote: Make me SK so I can play mental chess with rsoultin again about SK again and then shoot her!  ;o; but dead rsouls are not as much fun! | ||
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That's the hope lol. I find that writing when uncertain about work is difficult. | ||
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Will KSC actually play with me this game? Yeah, I'm off to bed now. Things to do tomorrow, Lexy's to cuddle, spam to not write. Toodles! | ||
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On March 20 2018 08:05 Mocsta wrote: FILTER STARTS HERE +1 This made me laugh (almost out loud). Moosey annoying me already. 20 people is already a lot of filter to have to go through, let alone this spam. No further thoughts worth sharing. Post 1 / 7 Just as a sidenote to self...helluva way to spend a capped post. Not sure how being 'annoyed' by moosy was a thought worth sharing, either. | ||
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On March 20 2018 08:06 KelsierSC wrote: you consider that worth sharing and a good use of your 1/7 posts. interesting. <3 The KSC is playing! LAST POST NITE! | ||
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rsoultin
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Some of what mocsta is pinging on reminds me of his town game, so maybe his entrance was just bad. Worth still monitoring given I townread him throughout his last scum game. Don't like the ykl scumread. I'm not really reading him anything but I think giving a newbie space to get his bearings rather than jumping down his throat is worthwhile. Also it's just a shit read. There's nothing tmi-like about saying you don't think ppl are scum but they're probably on the wrong track imo. Slam is not giving me the adorable aimless vibes. I usually love reading his posts and keeping him around. Might be scum. I've read everyhing else but these are the only things that stuck in my head lol >< will comment further later in the day when I have more free time. | ||
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On March 20 2018 16:08 Mocsta wrote: Hi Tina, Im near my post cap, but felt compelled to burn one. I dont like this post at all from you, and it has nothing to do with OMGUS. - The free Rayn read is pointless as town. He has not come under any scrutiny, and this seems opportune given he is online. - The read on me is very wishy-washy. I will let this slide in isolation; however, at some point you cannot keep defaulting to "he was in my trust-circle one game - never trust again" - The ykl read is interesting and primarily why you have got me burning a post. For all this effort to defend ykl.. I really should be a stronger read than "wishy-washy". After all, you painted the picture prior that I could be scum. Seems that you are just struggling to lie about it now. - Lastly, between page 7 - 15, its peculiar that the only things of merit worth discussing are Rayn/Kelsier and Mocsta/ykl. If ykl is such a poor read from me; why not comment on ykl read on n00bking. What about Koshi read on disinfo which has also had some airtime. What about Vivax push on Ex0_. Yes, I might have to consider getting slam drafted in to lay some of that "espresso shit" lol P.S. Take a position on me, bbygur1 Post 13 / 15 I didn't remember who all (it wasn't just you) started in on the ykl nonsense. Yes, I call it nonsense, because it is. Slam pinged me more because 1) he's not giving me those aww you're so adorably cute vibes that I love so much from him and 2) he already scolded people for scumreading/voting ppl for nothing and then goes and does the same to ykl. Rayn is a townread because I've played with him a million times and he is town. Period. I'd stake my hat on that. I'm leaning town on you and am perfectly entitled to be as wishy-washy as I damn well please. Don't mistake pinging me out as scum in last game as having a good read on me, because if you are town this game, this just proves you don't lol >< Ykl could be anything. But what he has posted never makes him scum here. Don't remember ykl's read on noob. Don't care about any of koshi's reads so far. Already mentioned ExO. Time for class now. Toodles. | ||
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TLDR would need to look at his town games to see if the nitpicking is actually NAI cause a bad memory suggests no NK I think asked about my slam read? It's tonal. But he doesn't seem to be having as much fun and his play is more focused. Like he's still clearly posting youtube videos and whatnot so in your vernacular it seems that he is trying to seem playful, but his tone doesn't match up. If you recall he had an NK/HF team he was tinfoiling practically since he entered the game last game but still was highly responsive to practically everything happening in a thread. Like a puppy jumping from play toy to play toy. (Sorry, this is the best attempt I can make to explain tone and feels lol ><) His ykl/ykr...yk whatever the name is read was a quick hop onto a meh read after he'd already scolded people for saying they'd found scum early etc etc. It read to me like 'hey don't be so quick to pull the trigger!' two seconds later 'bam!' with slam standing there holding a smoking gun. I think the thing with ExO/KSC/rayn is probably just best explained by misunderstanding/poor reading comprehension. Y'all are free to keep pressuring ExO but yeah. That doesn't seem like it means anything lol >< | ||
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On March 20 2018 21:09 ExO_ wrote: But Noobking never says that -- Noobking references Koshi's vote as his reason for also voting disinfo -- however Koshi has no substance whatsoever. *Note to self to look into because it washed past me in first readthrough. | ||
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You feel different to me, Darth gungan whose name I've just promptly forgotten lol >< Jarjar? More serious. Less adorable slamtheman. Why is ykl a better early scumread than the others you were pushing back on? | ||
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Viva is also likely town. Though the pestering comment is so rude ;o; makes me sound like a gnat. Kind of liked palmar's entrance but I'm not sure that I like some of his later posts. It has something to do with what he's saying doesn't matter. Hard to pin down. Need more. HF...yeah. The ease of the posts suggest town. But he's kind of forgettable. Same category as Palmar. Gut says town on koshi. Nothing concrete. Probably won't consider lynching him today, though. | ||
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On March 21 2018 00:26 Alakaslam wrote: Because he was Hell I don’t remember let me filter him after work. IDC if he is new by the way, AI is AI Okay then, what makes it AI? Because I don't see it. | ||
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On March 21 2018 00:58 Vivax wrote: Conversion, "his posts are scummy" is not a very convincing case. You seem like you are way too comfortable abandoning your read like that for the greater good of town. And rsoultin I don't mean to be rude but I'm used to see you be way more cautious about my alignment. I don't recall the last time you just were happy to townread me that easily. Lol, I'm not sure if it's your memory or mine that has the problem, then? Either way, I don't see how it matters; you either believe that it's a real read or you don't. I don't find you questioning me rude, btw. I find your way of reading me rude. (Which I'm pretty sure made an appearance in a similar form last game as well, so there's hardly any reason for me to not accept it as true). I just don't like being characterized as a gnat. Incidentally, that is part of why I'm reading you town now. Gnat read seems to be the genuine way that you read me. I'm not terribly gnatty when not devoting much time to a conversational approach to the game. So yeah, you could be scum using meta you would use as town, but occam's razor and all that. (Plus I'm not really sure that a scum Viva wants to go through the pain of making a scumread on me and then being bit to death if I don't find the read credible.) Not sure if that helps, but there you go. Also, post-game, I'm really curious about this gnat read. It's not how I see my own townplay at all lol >< I've called myself a gnat before but that's because I have to keep hammering at my scumread nails until I'm blue in the face usually for people to lynch them with me. Not for pestering? | ||
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On March 21 2018 01:15 Vivax wrote: I'm not characterizing you as a gnat. I just know you pressure people for things you find scummy and I don't see it this game. You called Mocstas entrance bad but instead of pursuing that you meekly decided that there were also townie things while at the same time saying you should have reasons to be wary of him cause he fooled you in the past. I propose a rough list of person of interest. Obviously I would reciprocate if you agreed. But mostly I'm interested into where your mocsta read ended up until now. The gnat thing came from pester lol which makes me think of an annoying insect. I'm not insulted. I think I've been pretty transparent that I'm town-leaning mocsta? It's for nothing more than being kind of on the same page, but -shrugs- on D1 that's good enough for me to look elsewhere. Slam is my lynch of choice presently. I've seen nothing to change my mind. There's a bit of tinfoil with ykl that perhaps scummates might be pinging him because they know he's scum and that's why the reasons are so flimsy, but I really have no reason to read him anything. Disfo I haven't looked into but probably will have to given the direction of the thread. I don't really want to lynch ExO off feels and rainbows and people wanting to lynch him for bad reasons. So I guess the better way to answer your question is: Towny Rayn KSC Townish Mocsta Viva Could be town? ExO koshi Won't lynch D1 Rels And everyone else is technically lynchable because I don't have strong feelings about them one way or the other. Rels I just obviously don't find his non-play alignment indicative on D1 and like having him in the game if he's town. I'm not 100% on slam being scum but I feel pretty good on that read. Can't explain it better than I already have, though. This is my attempt at not being too spammy and burying people in a game. It's also partially because I'm trying be more productive at home so I don't feel like a lazy mooch at the end of the day. I can't blame people for noticing a difference lol >< I have nothing planned for tomorrow until 2pm so I will have some time then to look into everything and engage with people if anyone is around. | ||
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On March 21 2018 03:02 darthfoley wrote: +100. Is Kelscier being a dick alignment indicative? Or is it more of a general state of being? Back when Kelsier actually played? Yeah. He's fairly aggressive. Plus I'm pretty sure he's town, so there's that. I can't 100% say he couldn't post like this as scum, but my recollection of his scum games when he was an active player was he'd never really dig his teeth into anything and then just afk through the game. Kinda like he does now as both alignments when he decides not to play as town lol >< Though, to be fair, he was more present as scum than he generally is these days. Or, at least that's my impression. This looks a lot like the old town KSC to me. | ||
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On March 21 2018 03:18 Fecalfeast wrote: I've skimmed up while I'm supposed tk be working. Towny Palmar Rso Hf Didform Not towny Kelsier Noobking Moose Back to work ask me why if you must Yeah, you're going to need to explain why lol >< None of those three you have up there with me are anyone I could confidently call town. (Also not sure how people should be reading me when I'm playing differently.) Disinfo could be town for his Viva read but I don't really see anything else in his filter but waffles and fluff. I could invent reasons you're scumreading your not town lynch, but I'd much prefer you explain them yourself. | ||
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On March 21 2018 03:38 darthfoley wrote: I feel like rayn hasn't stuck out in this game at all unfortunately. I have disagreed with rsoultin on like 90% of everything up to this point so Yup, if you're town one of us is pretty wrong lol >< Why exactly did you ask about KSC if you weren't going to give any credence to a response, though? | ||
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##vote: Alakaslam I'd rather people start taking stances on him, and that's unlikely to happen if I just come in occasionally and say, hey, but that slam guy! | ||
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On March 21 2018 03:56 darthfoley wrote: Who said I wouldn't give it any credence? It doesn't appear that you did. I said it's basically AI that KSC is town if anything, and you decided to ignore that and just say you don't agree with me on anything. So am I to think that this means you didn't want comments on KSC's behavior in regard to his alignment, or am I on auto-mute to you now? Also, I really don't see how ExO's reason to scumread KSC is in any way good? It's believable to come from town cause almost all bad reasons can come from town, but it kind of clearly is lack of reading comprehension ^^; Slam is definitely different. That you can't see it isn't really my problem, though if you haven't taken the time to look back over what I'm talking about that will probably annoy me. I can always console myself by telling myself that you could just be scum though lol >< Problem is, I don't really expect people to get my Slam read. I just think that it's probably right. Also, tbf, I like rayn's tone and where he's coming from, but I can't help but wonder if my read was hasty after so much silence. That said, I'm going to be stubborn for now and pretend that I have no doubts \o/ He gets busy for work so the silence itself is NAI. It's just that the read was based on early tonal things and I want something more meaty to bite into. | ||
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On March 21 2018 04:14 disformation wrote: to be super honest. I suck hard at reading slam (and chez for that matter). so I am kinda hoping that sorts itself out. he also posted a nice vid for me. xD nah. in more seriousness: you are talking about his difference to the medic game right? ill take a look at it if I gets the time. Yes. It's tonal, but I think it's fairly obvious even so? | ||
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On March 21 2018 04:20 Alakaslam wrote: Must’ve had a lot of chelada or weed or crack Unvoting -squints at- Are you now going to tell me you have no idea why you voted for him in the first place? | ||
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On March 21 2018 04:18 Fecalfeast wrote: Palmar - not trolling, i don't want to lymch him Rso - trying to solve game and posting a lot Hf - tone read idk Disform - i like how he caught up like he wanted to get his tjoughts out rather than feign activity. Purely based on last few pages Kelsier - he's being prickly Noobking - literally spite because of last game and because hf said he is doing his nitpicky shit again Moose - self voters fuck off Lol >< okay. What about viva? ExO? | ||
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On March 21 2018 04:23 Fecalfeast wrote: What's the slam story i skipped it Feels too serious. Ykl vote off of flimsy came after chiding people for voting/scumreading off flimsy. In a nutshell. Not quite sure what you're trying to say there, slam. | ||
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On March 21 2018 04:37 Alakaslam wrote: No. Read the nested quotes, I say it in there. I don’t agree anymore, in light of the dude’s filter it doesn’t make sense Hm. Carry on. I don't think that discussing this further will refine my read on you if you're town, but you being you might. @FF, I ask because Viva has been fairly active and ExO was pretty heavily involved with KSC. If you have a read on KSC based on 'prickliness', it would seem that you should have at least read some of ExO's posts. | ||
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This does make me feel a little better about HF because I see where he's coming from, though. It's a far cry from the rants of last game, but the focus of his posts generally feels wrong. Also idk his first post asking how many mafia there are really rubs me the wrong way. What strategic desicions could knowing that help inform on D1/D2? (as he amends after being questioned). It's almost like a really forced attempt at a dumbtell or something. Not the strongest evidence, I know, but coupled with the rest, I'm fine with a NK lynch. | ||
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I want to get a read on you. Currently you're just written off as indecipherable, and I know that a town moosy is better than that. Would you vote slam with me? Noob? | ||
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On March 21 2018 06:10 Holyflare wrote: Wasn't it you that said you coached him and that it's his town meta...? I said I wasn't sure it was alignment indicative? Obviously he does it as scum; we just saw it. (Still haven't followed up on that because I'm a baddy.) Anyway, you're missing the main points of my post, namely: 1) His posting is boring. (The bit about asking how many mafia there are is tonal and I'm not really certain on it so not going to beat it in to the ground.) 2) On reviewing his filter your read on him based on semantics makes me feel better about you because it's more prevalent than I remembered before filtering him. | ||
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On March 21 2018 06:18 Koshi wrote: Rsoultin and KSC are tip top town. If above statement is proven false I will automatically not qualify for the MVP trophy. I'd say that's boring and I want to hear more reads, but it's actually not entirely in thread sentiment (though from my perspective it should be lol ><). Still think disinfo is the best lynch, koshi? | ||
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On March 21 2018 06:19 Vivax wrote: I might fall asleep before deadline. In the meantime I want to point out that both of noobkings current voters didn't really take my bait question. I was expecting an answer from a town player motivated to lynch him. And that to a post that reads rather townie to me. Lol I hope you fall asleep before deadline. It's in over 24 hours. | ||
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That's basically my benchmark for waffly players: it's okay to be uncertain, but you have to have a clear thought process that is working toward some sort of resolution. | ||
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So why sheep slam or noob? | ||
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On March 21 2018 07:22 Mocsta wrote: Is it really? Seems half-arsed to me now that I have seen the HF addition. I didnt realise prior that all scum read quotes have moosy being annoying or scummy in common. With that deduction, moosy has dropped town points for me.. just like DF went serious for a couple posts to convey something. I really think moosy should have stopped trolling for at least a handful of posts as well. It's how he used to scumhunt -shrugs- I just read six of his old games while deciding to lynch him last game. And yes, HF is right. There's not much sense in lynching him for something retarded that he also does more as town. | ||
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Slam is bouncing around a bit more, and it makes sense if I want to lynch him that his tone might be off. But the narrative is weird. His curse of chupazi is that scum leave him lying around as town for the late game mislynch finish. (I've done this myself lol ><). The story he's pushing only makes sense if he's scum. And yes, I want to see if I've finally nailed down what makes a town slam town and a scum slam scum, so that's part of it. TLDR: I think I'm probably still right here, but never like lynching a town slam lol >< @df My main reason I want to lynch noob is because his posts bore me. The first post I didn't like I already said I'm not sure makes him scum. I don't think townreading him for arrogance makes sense though. We saw that last game plenty. Really struggling with noob in general. I think I don't like how he approaches the game at all, but even if scum i find it unlikely that all of this is made up. So I have to dismiss at least most of the what's most optimal for town talk as nai. And if that's nai I can expect him to be boring because he apparently doesn't believe in finding scum d1 @.@ But what bugs me a lot and what makes me still want to keep him on the table is this I agree with her on slam but don't share any of her other reads. And I would have been on the same page as her (other than hf) last game if town. If this is actually town nk here I have no earthly clue how our reads/methods would ever align that much lol >< This nk reads very similar to the nk who couldn't stop harping on how antitown HF was last game. It's like a scummy vs towny behaviour checklist rather than how I get my reads. TLDR: I can't fathom how this nk, if he's town, could ever claim with a straight face that he sees mafia like I do. A bit irrelevant, but no, rsoultin is not our sultan. It's an amalgamation of old email addresses and part of my name that coincidentally sounds like that lol >< Also arsehole which sadly HF has stopped poking fun at. I'm not sure what I make of df. He's right that we're on different pages. I don't preclude the possibility that one or both of us is just wrong, but I understand the temptation to scumread someone for having different reads. I don't think it matters though because I don't see myself prioritizing him this phase. Will be about. Still think both slam and noob are good lynched for the above-stated reasons. Also! Right, nk asked. I'm trying to lynch scum and I'm arrogant enough to believe that's possible d1 before night actions. Also already stated that getting ppl to take stances has value so, even if you somehow think lynching a scum slam would give less info than mislynching someone who talks more under pressure, people taking stances around slam can still be valuable. I don't expect ppl to read him the way I do because experience says ppl don't read others the way I do. Doesn't mean he can't be lynched for other reasons that I might find less compelling but others like. And regardless I'm stubborn lol >< Anywho, I should look back through and see who else other than the obvious I'm willing to consolidate on. Probably ykl and sl. And palmar, though part of me wants to leave him be just cause it's been so long since I've gotten a chance to play with him lol >< Need to review conversion/tt/disinfo. Probably some others I've forgotten. | ||
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Yeah man sorry don't think that's anything either ^^; But hey, I could be wrong \o/ | ||
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Pretend for a moment that you're 100% convinced that I'm town. Maybe the host fairy whispered it into your ear or something. Help me understand how you and I could possibly have been on the same page last game had you been town if this is an example of your town game. Because I don't see it. | ||
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On March 21 2018 17:07 n00bKing wrote: Eh. Perfectly happy to help you keep an eye on her, but high-activity players are poor D1 lynches. I expect her to post, I expect her to respond to people who make an effort to engage her, and I expect to be able to read her with a lot more confidence as time goes on. As much as I disagreed with her initial set of musings, I can't support a D1 lynch of rsoul. So tempted to throw shoes... | ||
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On March 21 2018 17:09 ykl wrote: Actually, for all of how much I dislike the tone he takes in a lot of them, I don't really think n00bking is acting very scummy? I'm not sure if I missed anything from the context of the posts. When I say boring I mean focusing and talking about things that aren't interesting/irrelevant. Which is not something I'd like to attribute to town players. However, there is the possibility that he genuinely believes we can't lynch scum except by happy accident on d1 (or if scum just really fucks up) | ||
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On March 21 2018 17:17 Koshi wrote: I like this guy. Can we keep him? Pretty please 😇 Lol, why? Though I don't mind lynching slam instead  I still say his narrative makes no sense given his curse of chupazi way of understanding the game lol >< | ||
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- slam entered the thread seeming to have less fun than my experience is when he's town - he chided people for fast judgments, then made one himself - picks up the 'slam whisperer' rhetoric when I have not claimed any such thing (if anything, I'm predisposed to townread him, even when he's scum) to push a narrative that scum rsoul wants to use her whisperer clout to get him mislynched d1 - this third point directly contradicts a long-standig view of the game in which slam believes scum tries to keep him as late as possible to mislynch him and win the game off that No, I don't claim to have a god read on him. I do claim that none of this feels like town slam tone or how slam would think. And I almost never want to lynch him, which makes me more convinced that I'm probably right here. | ||
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And obviously i prefer a slam lynch. But if that doesn't materialize, I want to refine my other reads. And I really don't see how your list vs my gut with only a little logic mixed in yields the same reads to such an extent that my having different reads than you d1 is enough to not want to vote slam whom you agree with me on! Plus you simultaneously say You don't care who gets lynched, must be scum! And Anyone who is certain of who they're lynching is bad because they're probably wrong Makes any earthly sense. It's like...stop being bad. But don't stop too much because townies are bad, and not being bad makes people scum. How does that even make sense? | ||
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On March 21 2018 17:42 n00bKing wrote: Because we WERE on the same page last game. lol When playing scum, I am never unaware of what the town me would be thinking and feeling. And I deviate from it only if furthering or protecting the scum agenda has taken precedence over "looking and acting precisely as I would while town" for that moment. You and I consistently held (and stated) the same opinions in that game, on one issue after another. The only subject on which you and town me differed was Holyflare. Lol I just...am flabbergasted at how many ppl think they know what they'd think if they didn't have perfect information. I really am. Because I haven't the faintest. | ||
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On March 21 2018 17:30 rsoultin wrote: Okay, let me list my points: - slam entered the thread seeming to have less fun than my experience is when he's town - he chided people for fast judgments, then made one himself - picks up the 'slam whisperer' rhetoric when I have not claimed any such thing (if anything, I'm predisposed to townread him, even when he's scum) to push a narrative that scum rsoul wants to use her whisperer clout to get him mislynched d1 - this third point directly contradicts a long-standig view of the game in which slam believes scum tries to keep him as late as possible to mislynch him and win the game off that No, I don't claim to have a god read on him. I do claim that none of this feels like town slam tone or how slam would think. And I almost never want to lynch him, which makes me more convinced that I'm probably right here. This is important! The master of chupazi has abandoned his chupazi mindset. | ||
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And this is yet another reason why I say 'ppl probably won't see what I see'. Managing expectations. If I don't get anyone to talk to me about slam my head might explode >< Tell me I am not the only one who knows about his chupazi game theory? | ||
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Viva is off doing his tinfoil again. Noob is infuriating regardless of his alignment. It's like talking to a scolding school teacher. I want a mocsta. And a KSC. And I want votes on slam. And I want people who don't want votes on slam to explain to me why, and my head might explode again if it's just 'I don't know how to read people like slam'. Cowards. | ||
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On March 21 2018 18:00 disformation wrote: well i know that je is using the word chupazi a lot? is the theory the one you mentioned in the point about him thinking mafia wants to usually keep him for endgame or late game? thinking of it i might want to check a game he was in with me. the host revenge one. yes! that is exactly it! thank you I wish I could say which game he's explained it in. I think more than one. But yes. | ||
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Now vote slam. | ||
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KSC CHUPAZI! What is slam's chupazi theory? | ||
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I really find it wild that people don't know his chupazi theory. | ||
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On March 21 2018 18:15 KelsierSC wrote: honestly rsoultin I have no idea what the fuck he is saying and I don't have any substantial meta read so i'm just going to ignore him and try to lynch someone else. I think you're town so I don't see your intentions as malicious but I just can't deal with slam head exploding days when you wish you were a vig so you didn't need to convince people to lynch your scumread so i have four options: 1) bounce up and down and channel palmar (oh, right, palmar lol >< he's playing this game) 2) find the damn game(s) out of the 20 something I played three years ago @.@ 3) say fuck it and go do something else <- tempting 4) find who else I'd be fine lynching meh, I think I'll have to do four eventually, but yeah >< of course, there's more mafia in the game even if I'm right on slam (and I think I probably am) but this is annoying >< | ||
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2 out of whatever. 5 probably. op suggests at least 5 Remove from lynch pool in no particular order KSC koshi Viva mocsta Rels ExO Rayn moosy df That leaves: HF Conv ykl noob disinfo ff tt sl Way too large a lynch pool. Poop. Could totally lynch palmar for big boy plays if people are too pussy to lynch slam. (Because yeah lol people too pussy to lynch slam are definitely going to get behind a palmar lynch). Also, wasn't going to spam this game. Diving filters to try to narrow that lynch pool. Some are just in there because I don't remember much from them. | ||
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On March 21 2018 18:33 Mocsta wrote: Heading out soon N00b reads better past hour. Aside from awkward exchnage with ykl I am fearful of lynch shenannies as i cant see any inkling of consensus and no default leadership. Lots of independents. How about tjis new stone Lwts talk palmar Useful filter so far?? Lol >< Consider me well-pocketed this game. | ||
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On March 21 2018 18:40 KelsierSC wrote: Tina why are we lynching dis? I honestly don't remember. I can filter him next. Last time I filtered him I was torn. | ||
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@KSC...I still don't remember reading his filter. Would have to check the filters of the people voting him. Which I'll probably do, but honestly I don't want to lynch him anyway because: - viva read feels genuine to me <- this was my hesitance earlier - focus on finding scum in those scumreading him feels super natural from town - he's actually trying to engage me on slam <- entirely selfish reason Removing disinfo from the lynch pool | ||
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On March 21 2018 18:50 Mocsta wrote: I have this tell, about game mechanics specific to this and .. i think the tell is SUPER unlikely to be applicable to mafia So i thought it applied to FF, but i just double checked and I hate to say this. ffs... it was a post by slam. i dunno what to say, i cant consider a vote on him whatsoever this cycle and i dont want to go through the tell. sorry ... dude why do you break my heart? anyway, @nk, agree on tt, not lynching him today | ||
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On March 21 2018 18:53 n00bKing wrote: Which part? Do you mean I shouldn't hope for him to be helpful later? Or something else? I have no idea if he'll be useful later or not? I'm just not going to remove him from my lynchpool on that basis alone when I see no reason to townread him. | ||
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Not caring for his reads list, not caring for the lack of suspicion on hf/palmar...hf in particular. Unless I'm misremembering, hf is not someone he's prone to townread easily. Only caveat is if he's scumreading noobking, he might find HF pushing him reason enough to put aside wariness of HF. So he's not up in the slam/palmar section. | ||
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HF removed. That leaves me with: Palmar/Slam Conversion, ff, sl Hah! I like that size much better. The chances that's the actual scum team is small, especially since Rels is just a ? and some of the other people in the not lynch list are there for light townreads, but I'm happy with that. Although I do realize that means scum would be hardly playing. Then again, with these lynches lined up, if I'm right on at least those townreads, that's not all that unlikely really. | ||
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joooooni you don't want to lynch anyone i do except ff and sl lol >< do you have a game in mind where slam breaks with his chupazi mindset and does this as town? because if that's the case i'm not as sure on him i really do think that disinfo's approach to people scumreading him is more likely to come from town. do you disagree? | ||
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On March 21 2018 19:35 raynpelikoneet wrote: I know lol. I don't know, i am generally terrible at reading disfo, but if, AND WHEN what Koshi told me in last game's obs QT (when i was sure disfo is mafia and he was town) stands, i think he is mafia. I know i am kind of contradicting here but I trust Koshi and my own evidence says mafia. nh all of these secret reasons @.@ slam is town for -insert reason that can't be discussed- disinfo is scum for -insert mystery reason- pfft. i think you and mocsta are town so this is just rude | ||
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On March 21 2018 19:37 raynpelikoneet wrote: Ah yes, you are right. That is indeed strange. Palmar can probably answer you on that. I can't. What? Palmar is pure feels for me. But he's hardly last resort. I want him and slam over the other three? Thought that was clear. (Palmar this game is kind of what NK was last game for me. Just...I feel there is scum there but I'd rather push the guy I have more articulate reasons to scumread.) | ||
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On March 21 2018 19:39 raynpelikoneet wrote: uh what? I have no secret reasons anywhere. Then what did he tell you in obs? I don't even know which obs you're referring to lol >< | ||
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On March 21 2018 19:51 raynpelikoneet wrote: rsoultin it was not in any obs it was post-game in the game we both played in last time, don't have time to check the game since i need to go mobile. Okay. I vaguely remember that specific comment, actually. It just sounds highly subjective? I presume that's why you're trusting koshi, then. Nh. I really can't pinpoint my issue with Palmar. Mocsta's point seems valid enough, but I was hardly looking at him that closely. It just felt...eh. God I'm awful at these explanations. Like, a town Palmar trolling or giving his sword to someone he townreads, etc. etc. can feel eh and that to me makes sense. He doesn't have the time or didn't put the time in. (Admittedly, I am shit at reading a trolling Palmar and will townread him when he's scum then.) But feeling eh while appearing to try? That's not something I associate with town Palmar. Especially when he enters the thread like he intends to take it over and be the town god leading us to victory lol >< which is the impression I got from some of his posts. As I said, it's entirely feels. I can claim that it vaguely reminds me of other games in which he was scum but my memory of those are so hazy that hardly matters. | ||
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On March 21 2018 02:56 disformation wrote: aight. a shame this is no m13. feel like in a m13 3 votes + ppl already being willing to consolidate on me there would be a really high chance for scum being in there. hoshi: has done this minimalistic / no fucks given D1 stuff as town before. even got him ml d1 in a game I was in for it. thing that confuses me is that he seemed to have a really good read on me in a recent game. so a bit paraboid, but would not want to lynch atm. ksc: no idea why that dude is so angry. other than that his filter looks like he is actually trying to figure out the game. though. It is somewhat puzzling to me that he understands koshi's read on me, cause I figured that to be more of a meta thing? hm. actually think he saw something else but similar in my post? *shrugs* gonna call him town for actually trying to figure stuff out. nk: still has the least explained vote on me. and that is not an easy feat given how detailed the reads/votes of ksc and hoshi are. HF's posts on him also were not bad. decent scum chance I guess. though as conv pointed out, he also is giving no fucks. like wouldn't have scum pulled _some_ excuse to vote me out of their ass by now? conv: hm. actually fairly locked in on nk for most of his filter. somewhat annoyed at md. think some ppl posted he sounds a bit forced? not really getting that feeling tbh. would feel better if he had more reads than like nk as scum and me as implied scum lean? super lukewarm. so. if there is scum on me it's prolly nk or maybe conv. full paranoia on koshi if he is alive like d4or something. if all four of them are town imma be somewhat sad. dinner and then I want to look at exo and his vote on ksc again. ^ This is admittedly a generalization independent of meta because I don't have a mental profile of him, but approaching the game from the perspective of 'hey, people are voting for me, which (one) of them is/are mafia' is something I generally associate with town. (And he wants to engage with me about slam ;o;) | ||
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and 'calling me out' has nothing to do with how my reads progress i think you're town, exo. and you're frankly shit at reading me. so i'd appreciate it if you gave this read of yours the doubt it deserves. it's pretty irritating when someone is this certain i'm scum every game and is this constantly wrong, but never seems to adjust his behavior @ rayn, yeah idk. i'm not sure on disinfo at all, just would be more comfortable lynching into my five. and the comment about wanting to talk about slam had more to do with my wanting to not lynch him than that making him town lol >< selfishness | ||
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On March 21 2018 20:31 ExO_ wrote: I'll admit, I've been bad at reading you in the past, and in general am very susceptible to OMGUSing hard and tunneling hard instead of being to assess and re-evaluate. However I think I raised some very valid points when I posted. You weren't offering any hard reads, were very wishy-washy and were sticking to your one read. I'll take another look at your filter but you're still pretty high on my list. Does anybody have an example of a scum game for Noobking I can look at? He's made so many long ass posts and it's hard for me to believe scum could sustain his level of posts like this. A lot of the posts are terrible, but he is at least taking the time to type up all of that consistently. -shrugs- you can be wrong. but i think i'm just as entitled to be annoyed by it. it's not like i really ever get mislynched barring highly unusual circumstances lol >< but if you want real talk for your future rsoul reading i'll give it to you i don't make shit up. my reads are what they are, and i don't misrepresent my certainty. i'm not an arrogant shit who thinks she's right all the time when experience has proven otherwise. that's why you see waffles anyway, carry on. i've expressed my annoyance and it's not terribly relevant to the game | ||
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On March 21 2018 20:32 Koshi wrote: 5 mafia would be unbalanced unless town has 3 protection roles so I am assuming 4 mafia. If there are 5 mafia hosts fucked up. Or should asap change the amount of night kills. So if there are 5 mafia. Contact the hosts that their balance is potentially shit. Remember mafia has members/2 night kills rounded up. So 4 makes a lot of sense. Calix is probably smart. -shrugs- idk. i think assuming there's 5 isn't awful, because if we're wrong we just win earlier \o/ or...were not going to win anyway? lol | ||
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On March 21 2018 20:36 Holyflare wrote: Is my filter even good to be town read? eh...not really. certainly not for hard town reads. then again, i have trouble confidently reading you town anyway -shrugs- | ||
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On March 21 2018 20:41 ExO_ wrote: @rsoultin, Can you explain your initial comment saying "I don't think noob is scum, but I could vote him because I'm bored". I don't understand how that post can come from a town player. If Slam isn't the lynch today who would your second choice be and why? I didn't say that lol >< Palmar, and I've already explained. | ||
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On March 21 2018 20:43 Koshi wrote: Artanis and you are so alike. 11vs3 is a normal game. So you think it is fine to add 66% more mafia while adding less than 40% townies while making it so that mafia has 300% more killing power than normal, well let's say 250% more on average with roles. If this isnt 16 vs 4 I will be so sad. More townies is balanced with a shitton more nk power. Okay, you're probably right | ||
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Yes, this is what I said lol. I mean, the point is I didn't find anything super scummy about noob I just found his posts boring? That's a far cry from saying I'm voting him because I don't think he's scum and I'm bored. I'm not sure how to make this clearer to you. Other people say he's scummy for doing the thing he did last game. I say I don't really see anything glaringly scummy, and it's not actually that close to what happened last game. But his posts are boring. I.e. could be scum. Do you not understand why boring posts could yield scum? It means a player isn't going anywhere or saying anything interesting...i.e. blending, possibly having trouble scumhunting. | ||
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On March 21 2018 21:20 ExO_ wrote: I think it’s a contradiction. If boring posts are scummy, then you should think his posts are scummy if you think they’re boring. I don’t think it’s a very good reason to say you’re okay with lynching him just because his posts are boring. In my opinion you are directly stating you do not find him scummy but don’t care, not that you find him boring and therefore scummy. Town should want to lynch scum, not a boring town Your opiniion is wrong I know what I said. And I wasn't looking to lynch 'boring town'You are taking qualifiers and using them as absolutes. He is not the scummiest scum who ever scummed =/= he is not scummy. I don't know how to teach you reading comprehension. And I don't have much nice to say. Like, I know for a fact that I have probably some of the best reading comprehension in the States, at least out of those who bother to apply for graduate programs. Highest percentile. I don't actually KNOW what people should be able to comprehend and shouldn't. But my instinctive response to this is to call you bad for not being able to read. But if you want to put a vote on me or call me scum based off not understanding English and choosing to interpret it differently than it was written, I can't stop you. And I don't think you're scum, so whatever. This is pointless. Once you have an actual reason to scumread me, I might address it. Otherwise -shoos- | ||
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@ExO that was mean. I'm letting myself get frustrated. I'm just not sure why you bother asking the question if you're then going to insist on interpreting it however you damn well please when I explain it to you. @disfo it's based off how I read him last game that i felt worked better than how i did in the past. the chupazi thing was mentioned last game? but not explained. let me find it as for scum games, don't know. i just think a difference in gameplay + a difference in mindset = high chance of his flipping scum. could do a meta dive if ppl remain resistant and it looks like no one will bother lynching/shooting him. see if i'm wrong (like joni suggests) or if there's more evidence that might help me get him lynched | ||
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I'm not going to retract the semi-apology for being mean. I am, however, going to say that misreading a post and then deciding to interpret intention based on the misread post is not good play. If you'd decided to interpret it differently while understanding it properly I'd have more respect for your read. Still wrong, though. On March 12 2018 09:43 Alakaslam wrote: That’s just the curse. I am pretty well protected by the curse as town. I'm bad and he's apparently using chupazi differently...like him being wrong on things and that influencing flips or something. But this is referencing what I was talking about regarding his perception of the game. See the filtered post by darth foley for context. Not exactly a smoking gun, but it does indicate he still ascribes to that mindset as recently as the game that just finished. | ||
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On March 21 2018 21:54 ExO_ wrote: also @rsoultin, this post—where have you seen Vuvax scum hunting? I ascribe to the Rayn school of reading Vivax. I.e. Vivax is making wild conspiracy theory claims. Computer says town. I saw what you said regarding his 'tunneling' you, but frankly, I don't see why you're convinced that someone can't have multiple scumreads and push one of them (presumably the one they're most certain of). To me, that's basically what town play is. So, long story short, even if I weren't townreading him off something that I trust way more than the read of an ExO who is currently being scumread by Viva, I wouldn't find your argument compelling. | ||
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On March 21 2018 21:57 Rels wrote: ##Vote rsoultin I hate you this game rsoul. You're so bland. In particular your vote post was so bad. Lol >< I don't think you believe this. I also don't think I can evaluate it before you play more. | ||
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On March 21 2018 22:00 Rels wrote: Other people I could lynch: Palmar exo Don't really know: Slam FF SL disfo HF. All of the other I townread to some point. Seriously? How exactly do you hate me so much when you want to lynch PALMAR who i want to lynch SLAM who I want to lynch ff/sl, who i also said i could lynch your world makes no sense explain your palmar/exo reads and your townreads | ||
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On March 21 2018 22:03 Rels wrote: Well which is it ? Do you think I don't believe it so I'm scum, or are you not sure so I'm null? My ego says it is HIGHLY unlikely that you actually find me bland this game. I don't trust my ego to be correct. Ergo | ||
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is literally me/Palmar/ExO Where I don't think anyone sees this exchange between ExO and myself and thinks oh, that's SvS! And what earthly reason would I have for pinging Palmar out before anyone if we were scum together >< Much less for hey man he feels wrong! I would at least expect you to think, hey, I'm probably wrong here on something because these people MAKE NO SENSE together. Maybe you still come to the conclusion that people are independently scummy, but it seems like you're just throwing names out there without considering it at all. | ||
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On March 21 2018 22:10 Conversion wrote: rsoultin can you spend your time figuring out the rest of your unknowns instead of arguing with rels Nope. And if you bothered to know what the fuck you were talking about you'd know I'd already done this. Figure out the rest of your unknowns my ass. | ||
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On March 21 2018 22:12 Rels wrote: I don't expect anyone to have the perfect 3 man team in his first read post D1. So no the fact that your discussion is apparently not SvS (I only skimmed it so I have no opinion on that) wouldn't change my reads individually. Pft. Your here is my progression reading the thread filter is a pain in the ass to follow. I'm just going to see the rest of what you do to decide if you're scum seeing a possibility in thread (atmosphere? forgot the word it's not that) to get me mislynched and jumping on the opportunity, or just wrong. I'm hoping the former because I find your scumread insulting. | ||
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On March 21 2018 22:13 Conversion wrote: man why are people so testy in this game. that's my job explain your read on me and ff, then. your read on me seemed waffly as shit and I have no idea where you are with it Explain why you don't understand them | ||
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Namely, you've only been focused on noob. You don't seem to be trying to suss out other alignments. That is scummy. Caveats are: scumreading for his entrance wasn't bad you could be tunneled town But frankly, even tunneled town usually bother to attempt to make other reads even as they're tunneling. | ||
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On March 21 2018 18:42 rsoultin wrote: Meh, could lynch conv. Super narrow focus on noob, even though I don't find the initial scumread awful. Chance he could just be town tunneling and thinking he 'caught' scum. Bit lower with hardly any other reads coming in at all. ^ I don't always write out names. | ||
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I'd still prefer slam/palmar. Slam more than palmar. Both more than the other four. I'm not going to pretend there isn't an element of OMGUS behind the Rels read. But it's hard for me to imagine it wouldn't be tantalizing with at least two probable town (ExO/Viva) willing to lynch me to see if you couldn't get that party started. And Rels is more than brave enough to attempt it as scum. | ||
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On March 21 2018 22:25 Holyflare wrote: Men are allowed to cry too. Quite good for mental health. Hey, do you buy the Rels read on me? Am I just being butthurt? | ||
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On March 21 2018 22:32 Holyflare wrote: Unfortunately I've thought you've been a bit underwhelming but not particularly in a scummy way though. Can see someone taking that as scummy. Also I'm now scum reading disformation quite a bit. Went filter diving and the following issues arose: Awkward entry into the game. No real reads till people started making them. All the reads he makes aren't waffles they are hedges. Not the good kind of hedges either. They are hedges that lean in one direction where he 50/50s a person IN ALMOST EVERY POST but then gives really off brand meta reasons to say they're town or whatever to complete the hedge because it looks like he can't think of in game reasons to be wrong. It's peculiar and scummy. Pfft -_- yeah I'm just going to go nurse a smarting ego for awhile. | ||
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On March 22 2018 00:11 disformation wrote: huh. was skimming: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/500627-outlaw-mini-mafia?user=Alakaslam (scum!slam game) and I kinda feel that looks more like this game than: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/516592-hosts-revenge-mafia?user=Alakaslam (town!slam game). can ppl take a peek and tell me if im blind or right (not a huge fan of using games i didnt play in). I'd like to know why you think so. I can guess, but it's pretty easy just to state x is closer than to y than z. | ||
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On March 21 2018 22:09 rsoultin wrote: I know that reads are not entirely based off association D1, but Rels' lynch list (ignoring the null could lynches) is literally me/Palmar/ExO Where I don't think anyone sees this exchange between ExO and myself and thinks oh, that's SvS! And what earthly reason would I have for pinging Palmar out before anyone if we were scum together >< Much less for hey man he feels wrong! I would at least expect you to think, hey, I'm probably wrong here on something because these people MAKE NO SENSE together. Maybe you still come to the conclusion that people are independently scummy, but it seems like you're just throwing names out there without considering it at all. I still find this relevant, even if no one else does and it's easily hand-waved away. Particularly the bolded. It's not that he has us three as his scumreads. It's that no apparent thought has gone into it. Like I think if you're scumreading me you'd be more inclined to reconsider your read on ExO, even if he's pushing me for asinine reasons. And while I could see someone missing my pinging Palmar out...multiple times...because I can't really explain that read. I would think it would also give him pause about Palmar. I'd expect some sort of...well this seems odd hedging or something, like perhaps an explanation why we're all so independently scummy that none of this matters. Didn't see anything of the sort. | ||
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On March 22 2018 01:11 Fecalfeast wrote: So we believe mocstas vig claim right? Ive had him as scummy in my brain but that d1 claim though Not lynching mocsta. | ||
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On March 22 2018 01:14 Fecalfeast wrote: Well then i scumread mocsta and am pocketed by hf. Why is disfo more scum than nk, sheepdog hf? So what exactly is this tone read that has you so convinced hf is town? | ||
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You're in my poe list, so if you could help me out by giving a straight answer, I'd appreciate that. | ||
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Okay. @disinfo thanks Same place really. Disinfo could be scum and I could be wrong, but I'm not liking that lynch. Will only go there to save stronger townreads (NK included). Rels I can get behind. Palmar. Would really like Slam most just for the vindication if he flips scum but that lynch doesn't seem terribly likely. I've explained the best I can. I guess of my fallback lynches I'd prefer sl? Dunnae FF could be town for not making shit up. Maybe. Possibly. Conv...okay conv and sl mostly same level. | ||
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HF, is there anyone of Rels/Slam/Palmar that I could convince you to vote for? | ||
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On March 22 2018 01:42 ExO_ wrote: Quickly sum up Rels for me — why do you think he should be the vote? just omgus? I don’t think he’s particularly good looking and think he doesn’t have a good reason to add me into his lynch pile, but evidently has some rep for ignoring day 1. If he was scum he could’ve skirted by without saying anything. What has he said that makes you think by posting he’s scummier than if he just stayed silent? I just mentioned it again? His scum list is retarded. He has you, me and Palmar as scum. Which could be fine if it appeared he'd even paused to consider that for two seconds, but it doesn't. Also, I find it really fucking strange that he has no read on slam but says my vote is bad. And calls me underwhelming. I could understand people doing that before (when I was trying not to spam), and maybe it's my ego talking but I hardly feel like underwhelming and not trying to solve the game are things that anyone can accuse me of at this point. If you think I'm scum you have to think I'm actively pushing scum objective. Period. Which apparently according to Rels' reads is shitfighting with one scum buddy while calling him town and throwing the other one who's received barely any scrutiny under the bus cause reasons? @hf I'm gonna feel like a complete tard if either noob or disinfo are scum, perhaps especially if disinfo is, but this doesn't feel like a thread of panicked scummers to me. Gut says TvT. @conv I see something that may be town. Then more that is meh and could easily be scum. And I end up right back at 0 for you. It is what it is. | ||
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slam/palmar/rels? | ||
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On March 22 2018 01:59 disformation wrote: imo rels is more like "those are the most scummiest persons in isolation". in a "i think there is at least 1 scum in there" kinda way? as implied by bolded here: -shrugs- i'm not going to pretend that I think rels is slam-dunk scum, or that my ego's not involved. but i know i'm town, and i find it extremely difficult to believe that in a 20 person game i'm the only one really pinging him. extremely difficult. he's played with me enough, and (sorry ExO) doesn't have the issues some others have with reading me. i expect better of course it could be true that he really just looked at us all in isolation and found us all to be individually scummy. i just think if you're going to take the time to do your little spoiler 'stream of consciousness' you'd probably comment as your reads develop (like so many players have) when your reads and how they interact stop making sense. basically, i think his scumread on me is most likely bullshit. and his 'scumreads in isolation' without considering how they're interacting is also likely bullshit. | ||
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the only possible town explanation i have for it is he had a eureka! moment regarding my alignment where i was 'bland' and had a 'bad vote', and just had to then rush off and completely catch up in his lunch break so he could play d1 and lynch the evil baddy scum queen rsoul rofl >< | ||
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On March 22 2018 02:11 disformation wrote: hm. think there is a good chance of hitting scum on my wagoneers. could do slam though. rels is fairly nully still. keep forgetting plammar. bad sign right there. time goes so fast in this m20 stuff. blaaaah you're still thinking conv/nk might be scum on you i suppose? i really am beginning to feel like i'm talking into a vacuum. maybe it's time to take a step back and let others play and stop spamming @.@ gonna get some shit done i should have started hours ago instead of continuing to beat my head against a wall. btw, if i read one of your earlier posts correctly, last minute will not be appreciated | ||
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On March 22 2018 02:31 disformation wrote: though. aside from the votes on me thing. I might need to reconsider a few things. like slam and palmar might actually look worse than nk and conv. a lot of ppl are also super not really active. i think ksc and koshi are just happy with the lynch, but i also have a feeling that scum doesnt give a fuck and is just chillin... or afk. mh. fuck. might actually be a tvt situation. That's where I'm at. And I agree one, maybe two on you could be scum from a purely theoretical standpoint, but I don't think looking only there for scum is that useful if NK is town, which I think he is. Definitely also fine with a palmar lynch. I'd be happy as a clam if I could just get people on one of those three @.@ | ||
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wafflebot is pre-making dinner for tomorrow because she forgot that she won't be here to do that before lex's late shift please tune in later for more updates from wafflebot | ||
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On March 22 2018 05:28 Alakaslam wrote: You know what? Fuck you folk, I’m out. Lynch the slot if you want. Really not sure why this set you off? | ||
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On March 22 2018 05:35 n00bKing wrote: Yo rsoul, what does it mean when you say "nh"? Nothing. It's just me being uncertain. Onomatopoeia for a grunt. | ||
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On March 22 2018 05:43 Palmar wrote: Throwing down a vote on disfo just so I get a vote out there. I don't remember why I thought he could be mafia but I don't really care. Claimed vet. Try again | ||
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On March 22 2018 05:44 raynpelikoneet wrote: I am here let me catch up real quick. Please tell me if I'm just butthurt on Rels. i want to lynch him but I'm not sure that's not just pride. Hf says I've been underwhelming so it's justified @.@ | ||
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Blah a glass shattered in the sink while doing dishes. That's just rude. My selfish side wants to townread palmar for agreeing with me on rels, but that's retarded. Why so hell-bent on lynchig disinfo? There are potentially other ways to check rather than just let mafia shoot/not shoot him. | ||
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Or possibly scum in df's case | ||
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On March 22 2018 06:20 n00bKing wrote: And I know I'm 100% to flip Town. And I think Kelsier is very very likely to flip Town, so I'll do anything short of sticking my own neck in the Noose, to keep his out of it. Again, we have singleton votes on: Alakaslam, rsoul, mocsta, Rels, and Conversion. Kelsier now saying DF is a good lynch. Where is a strong enough town-guided consensus going to land, besides onto sicklucker? I'm not staying in slam once I get back to the comp. Need to reconsider that read. | ||
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Can we just lynch Rels? | ||
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mocsta and hf can suck it. i'm allowed to not be certain, and hell if I'll pretend that I'm more certain than I am | ||
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On March 22 2018 06:50 darthfoley wrote: I'm truly trying my very fucking hardest not to go nuclear on the fact that all over a sudden 1 hour before a deadline when there are 2-3 competitive wagons, like 6 people just decide that I'm a good lynch for reasons while simultaneously waiting for someone to have the balls and/or ovaries to actually start a wagon on me. So who are you lynching then? | ||
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Will consolidate if necessary because I don't want any of the current leading wagons lynched @.@ | ||
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On March 22 2018 06:55 Rels wrote: This is the post that makes me think DF is town. Not sure how that makes him anything. | ||
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On March 22 2018 06:58 darthfoley wrote: No one is really taking the idea of lynching you/rayn/kelscier seriously unfortunately. However, your tone has seemed better to me from what I read this afternoon so I wouldn't make that a d1 thing. I actually think Conversion has a decent chance to flip scum. Rels could as well. Whoever made that point that he got all that shit done during his lunch break made me grin. I would also be okay with lynching FF/ykl/Palmar -snorts- Ironically, that was me. I can see myself lynching you today It's probably in your best interest to kill Rels with me, then. | ||
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On March 22 2018 07:06 Calix wrote: Just to confirm, the deadline is in an hour. Apologies for the confusion. rofl >< | ||
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Then maybe we can do something about Rels tonight. Or maybe if he's town he'll actually get good. A girl can hope \o/ | ||
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You just told HF you didn't get his point on mocsta when it's practically (not exactly because you're talking about making the read in the first place and he's talking about how he feels he should be townread for it) the same. | ||
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On March 22 2018 07:26 Mocsta wrote: wtf is going on. why am i a lynch candidate? i dont have time to read 15 pages. Point me to posts NOW. HF | ||
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On March 22 2018 07:25 n00bKing wrote: Same, if that's what it comes down to. This Coagulation guy looks like a pretty good lynch, though? ##Unvote sicklucker ##Vote: Coagulation I have returned and am caught up, and will be reading along. But will only be able to post in the moments of greatest need. Yeah I prefer scumreads over nulls man. You should know that about me after last game lol >< | ||
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ppl say rels bad, rels could be scum, etc. etc. no one wants to vote him ;o; | ||
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On March 22 2018 07:30 raynpelikoneet wrote: It is not the same point ffs. Mocsta is uneasy with HF for different reasons (none of which have anything to do with noobking) when df is uneasy with me FOR EXACTLY THAT REASON. I genuinely hate when people cannot look past what people post and try to see why they post things. And i don't think df is that shitty of a player as town, that's pretty much my stand point. Yeah, but...I don't know how reasonable it is to have an expectation that people should know what you're not saying? | ||
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On March 22 2018 07:34 raynpelikoneet wrote: because i literally insta-called HF town for his read and insta-"corrected" him or told what i think. Does he think i predicted what HF will say and that i made up an analogy in like 5 seconds or what? I'm not saying that it's not reasonable to make those assumptions reading your posts. I'm saying I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect people to. | ||
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other posts go boom fast no one lynches rels with me -waves savory rels meat in front of people's noses- | ||
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Rels is pretty. Yummy. We should lynch him. Frenchmen taste good. | ||
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On March 22 2018 07:43 raynpelikoneet wrote: ##unvote ##vote Rels \o/ Any more people wanting to play lynch the pretty frenchman? | ||
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On March 22 2018 07:46 KelsierSC wrote: this is really fucking retarded do i have to vote rels because mocsta is town and the conversion wagon is made up of bads rels is probably scum so that's gravy? | ||
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On March 22 2018 07:48 rsoultin wrote: whoa ykl ghost vote On March 22 2018 07:48 rsoultin wrote: whoa ykl ghost vote On March 22 2018 07:48 rsoultin wrote: whoa ykl ghost vote On March 22 2018 07:48 rsoultin wrote: whoa ykl ghost vote on df | ||
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On March 22 2018 07:50 ykl wrote: Ehh, I don't really like the other lynch choices up right now so I'll go with darthfoley Took you four minutes to formulate this sentence did it? | ||
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-facepalms- meh df could be scum but i think rels is more likely to be? | ||
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On March 22 2018 07:58 Rels wrote: yep. But more than that, rsoul attitude is not solving the game. She's 100% scum. Being mean to the newbie make no sense. If you're town here I have no earthly clue what you're smoking lol >< | ||
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(god, i'm a dip lol >< didn't even see that second spoiler from df in the moment) | ||
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On March 22 2018 22:51 ExO_ wrote: Haven’t offered an opinion on DF, havent read him too closely either. However he agreed with my suspicions on you and I soft town read him at that point. I’m still not convinced you aren’t scum though rsoul. The effort at End of Day makes me think yoy might be - but only because of effort and post count. Content wise I still think you’ve been really just meh on everyone except Slam. And I have to ask myself, were you pushing Rels based on a real read, or because you thought you could get others to go for him I'm glad that you've realized that I can only literally be two alignments this game. I will admit that my push on Rels was pretty bad, because it was mostly emotional and I probably should have let that go in favor of a lynch I could be more objective about. I'm going to ignore the part where you said I might be scum only for effort and post count as the obvious writing mistake it was. So, why was DF more of a slight townread to you than Rels when practically all that Rels was doing was calling me scum/a good lynch? | ||
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-puts that on list of things to check before EoN- | ||
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On March 21 2018 07:46 Mocsta wrote: So... im in an odd predicament (1) I have an important dinner tonight so wont be able to critically read anything (2) Where I work has been thrown in an unplanned shutdown.. I really dont know if I can commit the time to apply critical thought. I still think Day1 comes down to resolutions on the big topics: Slam Moosy Ex0/KSC, Koshi/Disfo/n00bking, DF Rest is probably side distractions. My current (albeit loose) thoughts are: Above null pile (Ex0_, rsoultin, vivax, rayn, Kelsier, ykl, disinfo, [b]Palmar Null pile (HF, Conversion, Slam, darthfoley, Rels, tictock, sicklucker, koshi, moosy) Below null pile (n00bking) Of the above null, I feel least strong about disinfo as its based on a heuristic that is gut feel only. Conversion is in null pile as I havent focused on anything he has said. Slam I would still need to meta-dive. DF I actually like, but I give pause since so many others have issue. I wouldnt lynch today, and would prefer not to use a bullet on. tictock is in null pile as I was surprised by the content since waking. Maybe im selfish, but I was quite surprised he didnt ask me anything. moosy i agree is not on the table Day1. Could be easy mislynch; so focus on other scum team. Apologies to leave it like this. Okay...random Palmar above here after stating dark horse could be HF or Palmar? | ||
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On March 23 2018 04:08 rsoultin wrote: Okay...random Palmar above here after stating dark horse could be HF or Palmar? Yes, this is the main thing that I want answered. The rest of the progression looks fine to me, though I might revisit after reading through HF's complaints properly. I think this was part of it, anyway. Also, as a sidenote, I too think that slam is pretty highly likely to be town for very dumb reasons, some of which are borderline cheating. Was beginning to lean that way anyway with his return to the thread, before the flip-out. Other sidenote pre-filter dive, NK is probably not a good vig shot because if he's town and Slam's assessment of the way the game is played where they come from is correct, we can expect him to start talking about relevant things and picking up steam after EoN. If he doesn't, then we lynch him. I think the comparison to last game with the vote on an afker is rather superficial when this game he was in thread to push it, mentioned it prior to, and still consolidated at the end. Last game he briefly mentioned the value of going after afkers, then randomly puts his vote down and peaces out. That's not the same thing. | ||
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On March 22 2018 07:28 Conversion wrote: Relax, buddy. I won't vote you to save myself. I believe you are town and this wagon picking up steam is definitely not pure, so I think town will be able to get mafia out of it. Am I smoking something or is this literally the first time in the entire game you actually give a read on mocsta? | ||
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On March 23 2018 04:51 Fecalfeast wrote: If mocsta can explain me I'll be shocked I can't even explain me He popped right off NK cause you were on him, and I see nothing in his filter that helps me make sense of that whatsoever. You were a null read. | ||
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So of the three up for lynch (mocsta, df, conversion) I've got some issues with all of them. -mocsta's palmar and ff reads -df's spoiler claim just kidding thing, and yeah he's not wrong that we're in wildly different places this game. course the latter doesn't necessarily make him scum -conversion's read on mocsta coming out of nowhere But I think that night actions might be best utilized on Conversion of the three. It's not just about the NK focus, it's also about the little jabs at people which I thought he was trying to cut out. Feels pretty different from Vendee to me. | ||
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Sure, but when you're determining who you want to lynch at EoD and tell mocsta hey I'm townreading you bro and it's the first time you've mentioned him? Pretty out of left field for me. | ||
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On March 23 2018 05:18 darthfoley wrote: Honestly feel lost in this game atm and i'm hoping night actions can clear stuff up. I can easily be 100% wrong you and me both lol >< Rels was town. Slam is probably town. I don't want to say Palmar is town yet + Show Spoiler + but I'm beginning to think so KSC and rayn still top my town list. Need to talk to mocsta. You I felt a bit better about around EoD? But the mafia motivation for being more cooperative in an EoD that could end in your lynch is kind of obvious. I'll be honest, I considered lynching you more because of not wanting to lynch the counterwagons and KSC/rayn both thought you were scum than because I really feel strongly about your alignment in any way. That fake claim thing hidden in spoilers doesn't help lessen my suspicions though @.@ HF...I'm not feeling amazing about HF. I think he could believe his pushes on NK and then on mocsta. So there's that. His occasional sideways barbs at me are getting my hackles up, and it felt like he was more interested in shitfighting with mocsta than where the votes were falling. Which reminds me of a scum game of his where he drowned me out that way when I was trying to lay down how one of the claims absolutely COULD NOT be true lol >< I'm not going to bother filter-diving him tonight, though. I don't think I'll be any more confident, for one. That can happen D2 if I'm around still and I feel the need to. ExO feels different. Almost like most of his posts are tonally apologizing for scumreading me. Doesn't fit with my memories of him. He kind of had a NK tone that grated. I may have missed it, but what has you suspicious of ExO, df? | ||
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On March 23 2018 05:22 disformation wrote: like game sense or game flow like I kinda think that one of the wagons was indeed scum and that 2-3 ppl on Rels are scum. but its actually fairly hard to figure out which one(s). well that or it is vivi's tinfoil. xD Yeah, I don't think all the wagons are town. Unless we just all went wild while scum laughed and did whatever the fuck. Not impossible, I suppose. Less likely. | ||
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On March 23 2018 05:38 Conversion wrote: honestly I don't see the necessity of sharing my reads with other people in a list? this is such a terrible reason to scum read me. None of you even bothered asking me what my progression on the game was, and I wanted to play without giving a useless list post. That does not make me mafia. No one that I'm aware of is calling you scum for not making a list. A read coming out of nowhere with nothing behind it is scummy, especially at EoD when they're one of the wagons. That simple. If you want to not get scumread for that sort of thing, post your reads (in a list or just as you go). | ||
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On March 23 2018 05:45 Conversion wrote: So me townreading possibly the only other legitimate wagon that would save my hide is somehow making me scummy.. okay. You play your game and I'll play mine. Lol this is bullshit. | ||
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On March 23 2018 05:47 Holyflare wrote: What a bull shit read on me rsoul. It's okay. We can just make bull shit reads on each other then \o/ I'm not going to pretend that I even want to bother to try to figure out your alignment right now only to wafflebot all over the place on it the rest of the game lol >< Suffice it to say I can't confidently townread you. | ||
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On March 23 2018 05:48 Conversion wrote: Right, and when I open your filter I see a bunch of waffling here and there. My heuristic says that scum do this more than town. Do I attribute this heuristic now to fit you as scum? No, I don't, because I use this thing called critically thinking to try and see what the context of the your filter makes you scum. The fact that both you and rsoultin are seriously trying to tell me that that fact that I townread Mocsta out of nowhere is scummy is hilarious. I'll cede the point of not posting reads/lists/whatever you two want as scummy as your heuristic, and I won't argue with that. But calling me scummy for not trying to countervote Mocsta? Go ahead and get me lynched. I don't care. As I said to rsoul, I'll play my game and you play yours. DF was another viable lynch option at EoD. Your reluctance to lynch mocsta out of nowhere does not win you any town points with me and I'm not sure why you're so determined to push this narrative. - There were other lynch options - Even if there weren't, you could be mafia together Go ahead and play your game, but that doesn't make my point invalid in the slightest. | ||
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On March 23 2018 05:51 Holyflare wrote: This is quite categorically false. I made a case on mocsta, I told you to vote him, I pointed out inconsistencies and repeatedly tried to get him lynched while you waved pretty French meat at people and did... Nothing? I didn't argue with mocsta either so if you want to put out that read to diminish my reasons to vote mocsta then back it up. Prove I did that instead of casing and giving mafia motivations. I don't need to prove anything? It was my impression of EoD. I was townreading mocsta and frankly didn't care about your insistance that you having a case on NK means he should townread you point -shrugs- It's just not a good point. I think you're calling casing and giving mafia motivations is what I'm calling arguing, so whatever. Really not in the mood to open your filter right now. | ||
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On March 23 2018 05:54 Conversion wrote: If you can't see why your point is stupid then we'll end it here. Enjoy! If it is, you should explain to me how it is? I don't agree that you not wanting to lynch mocsta makes you town. I've explained why. How am I wrong? | ||
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On March 23 2018 05:52 Holyflare wrote: My read on you is that you're underwhelming and did nothing to give more reasons to lynch rels at deadline. Your read on yourself is that you were emotional and didn't do much at deadline to figure out rels. So either you agree with me on yourself or you're needlessly niggling at me I know my alignment. I don't know yours. I thought Rels was scum, and I thought the reasons were solid at the time, but I can recognize that a lot of it was ego driven. It's damn hard to read someone who barely says anything but you're scum. And I can agree that the Rels lynch was bad and I wasn't using my best judgement without agreeing with you about being underwhelming. Those are not the same thing. And frankly, it's not that you keep on making side barbs. It's that you keep on making side barbs at me and nothing else. Hopefully you're right about getting nk'd tonight if you're town. Would make things easier. | ||
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On March 23 2018 06:05 raynpelikoneet wrote: Tine you are wrong. I have no idea why you and Palmar say HF did things he actually didn't. Okay, you're right, it was only 4-5 posts that he was really arguing with him. Imperfect memory ftw @.@ I can't say that it doesn't still feel a bit off because of all the vote-changes happening at that time, but eh. It's Will. | ||
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On March 23 2018 06:07 Holyflare wrote: Rsoultin, why did you town read mocsta eod? Eh, mostly just we kept on thinking things out of the blue around the same times. That makes it more difficult for me to see someone as scum. I'm not as sure now, thus the fliter dive. Less sure after it. I know he tries to pocket people and I'm definitely pocketable for him @.@ At least I'm too stubborn to easily be led around by the nose lol >< | ||
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On March 23 2018 06:12 darthfoley wrote: What narrative are you going to push when i flip green? do you think rayn is scum? | ||
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Rayn says: you should not be scumreading when i made the same good read as mocsta and hf DF says: i'm not scumreading you for that read. and you never made it! Rayn says: you should have been able to tell by my agreement Talking past each other. Obviously a paraphrase and probably out of order, and I can understand why that last is facepalmworthy cause it assumes you know what someone is thinking, but it's also a bit of an out-there thing for scum to say? In my opinion. No, I didn't say it, but you should have known that's what I meant and so I had that read! | ||
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Nah I like koshi. Feels like last game. Plus he townreads me. | ||
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On March 23 2018 06:43 MoosyDoosy wrote: If none of darth/Conversion/ExO/ykl/Mocsta is scum then rayn/rsoul are scum and probably someone like Holyflare o.0 I mean, yeah, the likelihood that there's no scum in the first five is infinitesimal, but I'd still like to hear where this is coming from? | ||
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On March 23 2018 07:22 Mocsta wrote: are you responding to tictock or me with ykl? cos it absolutely is with ykl, and why rels called rsoultin out about picking on newbies. Yeah, I still don't think I was being particularly mean. He responds in thread after I called out his ninja vote with a nothing sentence -shrugs- No, I didn't look at his filter beyond when he'd last posted. I was focused on other things. I don't see why pointing out it took him that long to write a nothing sentence i.e. it was more likely a response to being called out for a ninja vote, is mean. Clearly Rels thought so. Being new doesn't preclude someone from being mafia. | ||
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On March 23 2018 07:16 Mocsta wrote: Nah.. i was surprised yesterday too. but when i dived the filter at the time, i realised ykl caleld you out in the post i said was TMI. thats the difference with me n rsoultin. my thought was to check that.. hers was to wait for a post int het hread, and then comment about a 4minute delay. duno what it means, but worth nothing i believe. Also, it seems like you're building toward a scumread on me, but for some reason have not bothered to come out and say it. Am I wrong? And if not, out with it. While you're at it, explain how Palmar was in your above null list, and why you reacted so strongly to FF being on the NK lynch. If there's anything in your filter clarifying that, I missed it. | ||
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On March 23 2018 07:43 Mocsta wrote: err no. its about default mind-set. mine was investigative. I search ykl filter for consistency to see if it was a scummy vote. Found consistency dropped it. You decided to sit there and then take a dump. Considering you thought ykl prior was town.. this dumping mindset does not compute. Focused on other things. Sorry to disappoint lol >< | ||
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On March 23 2018 07:48 Mocsta wrote: lol.. nothing should have been noting - i surmise you contextually read that anyhow. as far as Im concerned, theres only 2 strong town reads in this game. You are not one of them. treat it as you will. Right, and what exactly are those 2 questions going to divine about my alignment? I filter is pretty consistent about the tier of people forming bandwagons. If you are critically reading my filter, instead of glancing; the rationale for FF will be clear. as for palmar, again, what is this driving. I explained the small issue i had with his early play. decided it wasnt indicative. I control F'd your filter because I can't be fucked to read every word everyone has said this game. So if you'd kindly reiterate it so I don't have to waste time with you if you're town, that would be amazeballs. What do you get out of being so obstinate? I already told you that I didn't find anything to explain those reads in your filter. Not gonna do it now ten minutes before deadline. | ||
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On March 23 2018 06:52 raynpelikoneet wrote: AHAHAHAHAHAHAH YOU OF ALL PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT READING BETWEEN LINES! roflmao. Okay i am done here i am soon gonna say something i don't wanna say. Good night. <3 Wish you were still here. | ||
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On March 23 2018 08:01 Mocsta wrote: hmmm jail keeper / medic in play? vivax is bizairre HF gg Why do you say this? | ||
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And Viva isn't that odd to me. He was never getting lynched, and he was either right on someone (worth getting rid of), or could make people get all paranoid about people they're townreading (obviously good for scum). | ||
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On March 23 2018 08:04 darthfoley wrote: Well Mocsta or Conversion has to be mafia. Or else were major league boned I actually think it's not crazy for it to be mocsta. That medic assumption is just too weird. ExO fits with his scumreads (but obviously would with a last will post like that) and for some reason he's living in a world where he's poeing all of the D1 wagons town? | ||
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On March 23 2018 08:07 MoosyDoosy wrote: I can see Mocsta being strongarm or someth and mafia killing ExO_ and claiming Mocsta as vig Something of the like, ye. | ||
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On March 23 2018 08:09 darthfoley wrote: Yes the thought crossed my mind too. Hmmmm. But I find it unlikely that Town doesn't have some form of KP sunless there's like a cop/tracker combo or something Nh. I just really don't like his initial assumptions. | ||
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On March 23 2018 08:05 Mocsta wrote: i didnt put any consideration into the wagons. thats just my gut-feel when i go to page1 player list. i was hoping to sheep this cycle, being so lost. Not certain now with my top town read dead. Is this the confirmed town you're proposing we vote with? | ||
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On March 23 2018 08:13 Mocsta wrote: yeah, im really not liking rsoultin following the NKs. taking really extreme positions while only ctrl+f'n my filter. ##Vote: rsoultin the wagon of justice. I'm not getting lynched. Not today. Not ever. And I'm not even going to be cautious about saying that because I probably already gave myself away with my response to your shit assumptions regarding the nks. | ||
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On March 23 2018 08:17 Koshi wrote: Mocsta is super confirmed town guys... come on. Combine our lists and mafia is there. We are on the right path. Just follow it. How is he confirmed town? I'll admit an ExO shot is weird for scum tho unless they were bluereading him | ||
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On March 23 2018 08:18 Mocsta wrote: actually, why cant this be the case? further, its completely congruent with my theory for how the game has unfolded. i'm not scum. get good. use that lovely intuition of yours that you tout so much. or i'll probably just tunnel you and if you're town that's not good for anyone that much activity at EoD doesn't feel like none of the wagons are scum to me, and I don't know why you make the assumption that they're all town | ||
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On March 23 2018 08:22 Koshi wrote: Because it was super obviois he thought mafia could only be the 2 roles in OP. I knew it when I read it. And how he played when he realized his mistake. Not drawing any attention to it till right before EoN. He is 100% confirmed town vig. Nh. Fine. I still contest 100% but faking that isn't highly likely and yeah ExO kill not much sense for scum. Tell him to get good then. I'm going to go play heroes. | ||
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On March 23 2018 09:05 Palmar wrote: hey rsoultin. I need exactly three answers from you: a) Do we trust this new koshi? Is he improved? Is he better than the original one? b) What do you think of rayn? Tell me how you really feel. c) Do you miss HF? I miss HF. I like him fine? I think it's easier for him to hide as scum in his current way of play, but I have no reason to think that's the case here. Two minds on rayn. Early tone says town. Some of his later posts as well. He's tricked me before now that he knows how I read him though. He also hasn't pushed me which could be his read getting better but I have nothing but obs to base that on. Not in the limelight fits both minds. Though I'm beginning to think I should have missed HF more yeah lol >< | ||
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On March 23 2018 16:26 MoosyDoosy wrote: ayo rsoultin, where do you stand on noobking and do you think he's the same as last game. also what's your read on me Kinda ignoring this game until Lex goes to work so -shrugs- I could make off the cuff reads but not gonna | ||
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I'd say kill conversion but with my track record he'll probably end up being town, too. My townread on you isn't based on much. I'd say it's probably right but I'm a moron this game lol >< As for NK...he doesn't really feel like last game to me but that's not a strong read, either. So yeah, I need to really dig into this game...again...and it's not happening right now. | ||
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As for conversion...he feels different than the game I was scum in. Like wasn't he trying to be a new and better conversion? Don't see that here at all. | ||
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On March 23 2018 16:55 rsoultin wrote: Yeah I don't disagree on nk, mocsta. I expected some night action analysis given his perception of how the game should be played and there wasn't any that i noticed? As for conversion...he feels different than the game I was scum in. Like wasn't he trying to be a new and better conversion? Don't see that here at all. Let me try to explain this better now that I'm not trying to post between deaths in heroes lol >< His anger this game is not as irrationally explosive when it shows, and there seems to be no attempts made to curb it and be more pleasant like he was making in my scum game. I need to pop into that game again (add to list) and see if he said that new approach wasn't working or something to explain why he'd drop it, but as I recall it didn't go so horribly for him other than the one explosion he made (that got him townread) and he went back to trying to play more constructively. Plus yeah three mafia in three days. Doesn't seem like you'd then say oh that didn't work, I'll just drop that effort. He's calling me stupid for saying that calling you town out of nowhere at EoD looked scummy. I pointed out that there were other wagons (and in any case you could have been mafia) so his claim that townreading you makes him town was just wrong. He still failed to address that. And yes, that townread came out of nowhere. You're literally never mentioned by him until then. | ||
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On March 23 2018 17:06 Mocsta wrote: What do you think about the stuff above with darthfoley? Nh. I'm beginning to lean toward not wanting to lynch df? It's not a super strong lean by any means, but I've come to the conclusion that people suspecting me was justified after Rels, Hf, you (not gonna rethink this unless we somehow both end up in lylo which will probably never happen), Exo, Viva (lol not that his was based on anything I understand), and he was one of the first. And yeah his reason for suspecting me...banana analogy and all...was not bad given my read was fairly poorly worded. I can see that read. And frankly part of it is I'm waffling hard on rayn and think his flip might be telling. In line with the maybe I should pull my egotistical head out of my ass and admit that I must have been doing something wrong with so many town players scumreading me, rayn backing me up...he's been better at reading me in obs, it's true, but that was also in games where I was just hands-down top townread untouchable anyway. Thus the waffle. Maybe he shouldn't have been townreading me so hard. Then again there are also posts that feel very town!rayn from him where he's just RAWR! how could you possibly THINK THIS?! So color me completely indecisive -snorts- | ||
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On March 23 2018 17:14 Mocsta wrote: Hmmmm Perhaps that is a deal scum indicator I jumped onto him cos i had no idea. This is in my filter a few timea as well. He couldnt jump onto me cos im town, but no reference posts... so tmi in the moment I am contemplatinf replacing cos this game is taking ocer my life in a bad way. If i stay i will read conv pronto You can just be a lazy bum like I was trying to be and still stay? I prefer talking to effectively confirmed (yeah I'm stubborn not going to say 100%) town because I can be almost certain you at least believe what you say. | ||
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On March 23 2018 14:28 Mocsta wrote: This marks one of the first times DF breaks from roleplay and its important. Like, what DF writes is technically consistent with the below: however, in context of Kelsier point, its total bullshit. + Show Spoiler [Kelsier good point] + On March 20 2018 19:51 KelsierSC wrote: yeh it's not good. I don't know what it means alignment wise. I feel that if you're town you just have fun as town whereas if you rolled mafia the second time in 3 games and you wanted to make things fun fun yourself/hide you would make a persona. I can't say it makes him town or mafia but if I had to pick I would say it is more scum sided. In terms of actual bad stuff. He liked a post that exo had made which wasn't that good. I can understand exo's defence of this post but I don't like the post in general. he also leaves exo off his list of town afterwards gives the impression that he doesn't really care who his town circle is and just wants to throw some names out. I'd lynch him and not just to stop the terrible RP. On the surface this is a pretty fair point. I'd have to go back and check context though and we're about to head into the city for the morning. Wedding suit shopping and getting bank cards activated and the like lol @.@ Eh, it's fine, I was just questioning items originally and giving HF's read a fair comb over (that and you were a wagon) then the kinda casting shade kinda not thing started pinging me from you, so I think we both wound ourselves up to it in a lovely cycle of OMGUS that's par for the course for me this game. Blah. Anyway, toodles. Will take another run at DF this afternoon. And check that my impressions about conversion are actually right and not just faulty memory. NK I could definitely lynch if he doesn't pull out his town god he's been bragging about all this time lol >< | ||
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@nk the mostly afk players reads don't really interest me. The only one that comes close is the ykl read. To be able to read you id need you to comment on other things that have more content in the thread. Even if all three of those were scum there would have to be at least another somewhere. Also, why is ff missing if you've decided today is the day to discuss afkers? Not interested in the dick measuring who voted who and who was bad in a previous game argument @.@ it has absolutely no relevance to this game Let's pretend I give you the benefit of the sound and say yes losing a town nk would cripple us and we'd have no chance of winning. Now convince me you're town rather than trying to scare people about losing town god noobking. | ||
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@Conv Noted. So why did you drop your better behavior conv this game? | ||
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On March 23 2018 22:31 Conversion wrote: I'm still not at the drama-queen stage yet so I think I'm doing fine, so better behavior compared to what? I have non game related reasons why I was slightly testy D1/N1, but it's rather annoying that you blew off your chain at me first and then expect the same level of respect back as you did in Vendee. Granted I was in a better mood when you tried to OMGUS me in Vendee, but again, I'm not a robot and you seriously can't expect me to be the same every game. Yeah I don't recall ever blowing off my chain at you, so -shrugs- | ||
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Okay, I can see why you'd think that this is me blowing off my chain at you or whatever. You were interrupting something that I felt was important to tell me to go do something I'd already done. I'll apologize for the language. However, you've actually been shitty toward people long before you started calling me stupid every other time you posted to me. And I never took it personally because, frankly, I don't see how what I've posted regarding you is stupid and I also think you have a good chance of flipping scum. If you're behaving this way because I cursed at you, that was probably uncalled for on my part. So if you're town, can we both just agree to let it go, yeah? It still doesn't change that you started this game being shitty toward people and that's what you were going to try to stop. Would you answer my question as to how it's stupid of me to say that your EoD read coming out of nowhere is scummy? How does it make you town to townread a counterwagon when there are other counterwagons? What am I missing that you feel the need to call me an idiot for even suggesting that you could be scum for pulling a read out of thin air? | ||
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On March 23 2018 22:44 Conversion wrote: I mean, where was I being shitty to people except n00bking and Moosy? It's honestly so fucking annoying when people are telling me my behavior has been shitty. literally besides calling your point stupid, telling n00bking who lorded over me and implied I was bad at the game, and Moosy who didn't give a flying fuck about anything I posted and just told me I was "mean" while n00bking swung his dick around telling everyone they were bad? Seriously, fuck all of you telling me my behavior has been shit. Come back. Calm down. And understand what I'm saying, please. I don't have an issue with you sniping at people in a vacuum. I have an issue with it because you'd said you were trying to stop, and actually did a pretty good job of that your last town game. We all say things we shouldn't, and even if the emotion is real enough in the moment, it's usually not meant as nastily as it comes out. I'm not saying you've been the most toxic player in the game. Far from. I've probably been worse. Definitely have at certain times. Can you please come back and talk to me so I can get right if I'm wrong? | ||
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On March 23 2018 23:03 disformation wrote: you should be rage-quit inducer instead. @conv: take a break, have smoke/drink/whatever you like and come back. afaik ppl aren't very inclined to lynch you. hell your nk comment made me laugh so i am less inclined to lynch you. lol apparently so >< and i wasn't being mean either time which is the mind-boggling part | ||
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What about his comments on NK do you not like? | ||
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I agree that a lot of people have been shitty this game, myself included. Toward ExO in particular but also in general. And yes, KSC certainly qualifies as well. Irregardless of the game, I hope you can understand that I'm not trying to criticize you for your behavior. | ||
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On March 23 2018 23:28 Palmar wrote: It's not even a panic. The best scum move is always to shoot people who are right. People don't like to change their minds ^^ True, but it's probably not a great idea to encourage people to only look into who nk targets were scumreading, Palmar lol >< There are plenty of reasons for night kills. | ||
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On March 23 2018 23:37 Palmar wrote: Btw, KSC's chances of being mafia have increased somewhat Just like Mocsta creating some bullshit post restriction, then getting excited and ignoring his own rules makes Mocsta more likely to be town, KSC claiming to go afk for a day and not even returning to post a single post or take a jab at someone or something means he's not really particularly excited about the game. I know he said he wouldn't be back before today, but yeah, the lengthy disappearance is making me antsy. Also, if I just go with lynching the people I was townreading rayn/ksc/koshi top that list \o/ Didn't really see anything that struck me as terribly scummy when he was actually in the thread, though. So there's that. | ||
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On March 24 2018 01:01 Koshi wrote: Ofc I do. I will never lynch him except maybe lylo. rsoultin seems lost last 3 pages. But in a bad way. Maybe not though. Eh, I find this game demoralizing, frankly. So that makes sense. | ||
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On March 24 2018 03:10 raynpelikoneet wrote: I dont think i am being aggressive, sarcastic yes. I get frustrated when people cant even think why i am doing the things i do. It doesnt matter to me if they scumread me or not but i cba to argue in my defense against things that are completely hilarious. Idk, i might start playing like disformation here, just comment on every thing that goes on in thread but never actually do anything with any information. I promise i will do that next game, it will for my own amusement. Dont even ask why i react to Koshi as i do. Funnily enough i do t feel like talking to anyone in this game atm except for Palmar and Mocsta, aside from you. Nothing has been done today except apparently people managed to kill Conversion and dick move analysis alone says he is town, so well done moat likely.Im just gonna get drunk tonight and probably tomorrow as well. -pokes- I keep making people not want to play. Including myself. Join me on heroes? I'm not even sure what I've been doing so wrong this game >< other than being wrong a whole fucking lot. But yeah. | ||
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Thanks, df. Yeah, I'll try to find some motivation tomorrow. It's just really not here today. Was finally feeling ready to delve back into things when conversion happened. I don't join these games to make people upset. I don't know what moosy is talking about but I'm sure he's right and I'm doing whatever that is, too. I mean, the only real reads I've gotten from today apart from probably being wrong on conversion is I'm feeling better about palmar and I don't think disfo is ever scum here? Well, outside chance, but pretty minimal when he seems willing to work with literally everyone on literally everything. That's all I've got. Good night. | ||
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Town Mocsta Coagulation raynpelikoneet - tone Very Likely Town disformation - level of involvedness Palmar - could be wrong for a number of reasons, but I like what he's posted since N1 Koshi - think he could emulate this level of play as mafia, however his beginning of D2 gives me good feels. he could have just let the cats quarrel and that would have been perfect for scum Slam - tone from his last catch-up on D1 Computer says town but want to reread Moosy - my impression of his scum play was he fell off hard later in the game while still posting periodically. i'm not getting that impression here, but need to double-check to make sure his posts are leading somewhere Needs review darthfoley - tonally i'm finding him more townish since EoD1/N1. need to really look into the arguments and discuss with rayn ksc - felt he was town early D1 and never really gave him a hard look. even the read through I didn't get too far in. could be wrong here tt- seem to remember he made okayish posts, but i'm having trouble placing him in this game. not a good sign Fuck if I know ykl - liked his early tone. could be overwhelmed as town. could be floating under the radar, though FF - a bit more on the scummy side of null. says i'm scum but he'll sheep onto the wagon that i'm voting on Very likely scum N00b - would rather argue about how valuable he is to town than try to be valuable to town Flipping anyway Conversion I'm going to focus on the bottom 7 tomorrow (excluding conv of course), and I'll also discuss any townreads that others want lynched. Probably be on around noonish CET? Maybe a little earlier | ||
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On March 23 2018 08:11 Tictock wrote: Just checking flips before I finish reading (note I still have not read pgs 40-70 or w/e) Guess I can let that HF stuff go. Exo seems like the weirdest kill to me, unless he was vigged? Assuming for a moment that that was all mafia KP then I think 5 mafia is a safe bet (6 just seems like too much for 20 players). Noting for myself to look into who Vivax was scum reading. Just for clarification, this is the post that people say they don't understand how it can come from town? | ||
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On March 24 2018 16:28 rsoultin wrote: Just for clarification, this is the post that people say they don't understand how it can come from town? I mean, I know it's the one rayn is talking about. I'm just making sure that it's also the one you're talking about nk? + Show Spoiler + @slam I thought that the red comments were part of nk's post that you highlighted at first and was so confused rofl >< | ||
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Tt's explanation for it lines up for me? I'm terms of teaching differently to the hf/viva kills. I guess it's a bit purposeless in the sense that he's just speculating about kp and saying he needs to check things, I'm just not sure what's supposed to be so scummy about it? | ||
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Coag I've hardly played with, but palmar is probably right. Remember some town seal thing vaguely. Believe those were your meta questions without reopening filters because that's a pain in the ads in phone. You think d1 is a crap shoot. So I speculate this means you like flips. Night actions. Solid evidence. Is that right? Maybe I missed it, but you seemed to go straight to afkers after three flips. Tt excluded but I have to check the context on that. I'm interested in what the flips told you. How that potentially changed your view of the game. Please quote posts I missed. If it's all stuff you haven't written about yet, i would still like to hear it. | ||
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On March 24 2018 16:54 n00bKing wrote: ...as rayn and I have said, there is no reason for a town player to make that post. As I've said, I can, however, imagine a reason for a scum player to make that post. And again, his defense of the post has been even worse than the post was. Check my "Yikes" post. I saw but I disagree? I don't find it particularly strange to want to see the flips and then to post about them, even not caught up. | ||
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I'm trying to understand what makes comment it on flips scummy. I may still disagree but obviously we're not seeing eye to eye | ||
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On March 24 2018 16:39 Alakaslam wrote: Dammit. I recognize the only reason I am so peeved by your arrogance is because of the extent of my own. But man you can’t get anywhere in this game humbly. I recognize that now. But there comes that point where you are being blinded by it, that’s just more than I like to see, idk. -pokes- you seem to have a pretty good handle on noob. I'm not clear on your posts...do you think he's scum this game? It seems like maybe you don't. You were talking about how they played on the other site and scum basically playing chicken shit. What bugs me most about noob is his focus on afkers to the exclusion of everything but his counterwagon this phase. Am I wrong to be bugged by that? I.e. is that just how he's been taught to scumhunt on the other site because scum there are chicken shit? | ||
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On March 24 2018 17:28 n00bKing wrote: I have 2 quick comments on this, but I'll let him answer first. Remind me, if needed. Will do. Gonna be away for a few hours but then I'll be at pc. Would still like answers to my questions to you. | ||
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On March 24 2018 20:38 Mocsta wrote: Conversion is town??? Interesting We'll know tonight, but probably -_- I'm not going to do him the same discourtesy others did me by assuming he has no emotions when he plays scum. | ||
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Anyway, the context of that game had Superbia claiming 'blue' right before EoD. + Show Spoiler + On April 17 2016 06:58 Palmar wrote: makes me want to stay on you. you're a doc or a vig, either way you will be fucking murdered tonight. On April 17 2016 06:58 Palmar wrote: ok whatever claim tomorrow. I'm off for tonight and probably most if not all tomorrow gl These posts all happened within 1-2 minutes of each other. Not sure why NK choose to leave part of your post out, but I don't think it's misrepping anything regardless. | ||
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So if I'm in and out a lot today, that's why. | ||
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On March 24 2018 22:33 raynpelikoneet wrote: The thing with Palmar's approach to disformation during D1 and after is this. I actually thought about that too there since i think disformation is mafia and originally i figured it would be beneficial for Palmar to do what he did if he is mafia with disformation. The problem i have with that line of thought is the following: We can probably agree Palmar isn't completely unaware of what happens in the game, especially close to the lynch D1. If Palmar is mafia there is actually zero benefit for him to downplay his accusation on disformation after the claim because: 1) thread sentiment suggest not lynching disformation anymore 2) he can use that as a cover up into eternity for not doing anything other than saying "lynch disformation" Therefore i came to conclusion that this: ...line of thought has to be legit thought process and the only explanation for "breaking character" is this. There is literally zero reason for Palmar to break character here regardless of disformation's alignment since not doing so ONLY helps his mafia play because it's correct (1) metawise, (2) noone can blame him fro that, (3) it gives him an excuse to not do anything. If disformation is mafia, the seed of bussing would have been implemented already before the claim so it makes no sense for him to not continue that. If disformation is town, there is ABSOLUTELY no reason Palmar should "lay off" him like he did. Here is an example of Palmar breaking character as mafia. One big game there was we had a similar type of situation where Vivax claimed a role D1 when being lynched. Palmar is known for his "lynch claimers" policy, although he is a bit of a hypocrite in that tbh, lots of words why it's the best play, always do the opposing thing.... I, in that game, kept my vote on Vivax and tried to get him lynched because i didn't think the claim means anything. Palmar comes in -> says he reads me town -> says he will sheep me -> votes for the counter-wagon Rels. That is how Palmar breaks character as mafia, doing something completely illogical that fucks him up immediately + Show Spoiler + (except that it doesn't since none of the plebs were able to lynch him in that game while me and Artanis shouted all N1 "Palmar is mafia" and got both killed N1) TLDR; There is zero reason for Palmar to break character he is very well aware of regardless of disformation's alignment. Another thing is the coag townie seal that noobking talked about. I can't understand how he can come to a conclusion that "if Palmar is mafia he is lying" because i think that's a completely unnatural thought. There are more players in the game who know coag than Palmar, and the reason why noone is "contesting" the townie seal "case" is because well.. that's how it is. I can't figure out where the line of "if Palmar is mafia then he can be lying" comes from because that's not an option for him as mafia regardless of coag's alignment. I am not sure why noobking throws all these things into trash and just follows one line of thought (which is definitely less likely than this). This is not even any sort of meta thing, this is just "why would town/mafia do this and how likely" which is what he loves all that much (like i do). Hm, I was kind of liking noob's palmar digging because that's the sort of thing that I would do, and the sort of thing that would ping me. A discrepancy in game perception: see issues with slam and conversion this game, moosy last game, etc. I agree with you on palmar that I don't see the benefit for him doing that as scum here. It was just making me feel a bit better about noob, though I wanted to keep the pressure on to see what he came up with. You're right about his approach to the coag point, though. It's not a matter of lying. It's a matter of, do you think Palmar convinced coag in their scum qt that this was the game that he was going to break his meta for ultimate glory? Or, conversely, that Palmar focused on that rather than other things just to look like he was doing something. | ||
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On March 24 2018 22:42 rsoultin wrote: Hm, I was kind of liking noob's palmar digging because that's the sort of thing that I would do, and the sort of thing that would ping me. A discrepancy in game perception: see issues with slam and conversion this game, moosy last game, etc. I agree with you on palmar that I don't see the benefit for him doing that as scum here. It was just making me feel a bit better about noob, though I wanted to keep the pressure on to see what he came up with. You're right about his approach to the coag point, though. It's not a matter of lying. It's a matter of, do you think Palmar convinced coag in their scum qt that this was the game that he was going to break his meta for ultimate glory? Or, conversely, that Palmar focused on that rather than other things just to look like he was doing something. To be even more clear for you, rayn, I didn't think it had bearing on Palmar's alignment. I was prodding into noob's. | ||
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On March 24 2018 22:45 raynpelikoneet wrote: Coag has been tried to convince that in scum qt earlier and it didn't work. I agree that the above thing is something a townie would say, but i kind of disagree it makes noobking townier because of how he looks at things and here he seems to be working completely differently than for example with his stuff on Tictock. That being said i also think Tictock looks way better for his latest posts. If I can keep focused long enough, I need to double check HF's reasons for wanting TT dead. I do remember something about TT defending mocsta before reading or something, but it's hazy. I definitely don't think his post at the start of today was weird at all. Yeah, that was the other thought. The timing on noob pushing that. I'm just going to do that now while it's still fresh and then maybe try to sleep this off. And, really, I feel like TT and disinfo have been some of the people most actively digging this day phase. TT you could argue is on the chopping block, so it's not as alignment indicative for him. But yeah. | ||
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On March 24 2018 22:49 raynpelikoneet wrote: Another problem i have is that no matter how much i would like to lynch noobking here i don't think that's the best option here. Because the thread sentiment suggests that either: 1) noobking is mafia with lurkers 2) mafia doesn't care about what's happening -- aka mafia are lurkers That is, if i am in fact correct and tictock isn't mafia after all. You're not supposed to say this before he answers my questions ;o; | ||
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On March 24 2018 22:54 raynpelikoneet wrote: He will still fuck up if he is mafia. True. And if he's town, I like how he thinks with that poke into Palmar. Worth keeping around. | ||
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Lol, if this game has proven anything, it's that I'm at least a bit narcissistic; oooh he looked at something the way I would have! -snorts- Between that and Rels and pouting over HF and ExO (and conv though I think it's okay if I say that I want to still believe there's a chance he's scum so that I didn't fuck that up too bad), my ego is getting entirely too much in my way this game. FF/ykl/ksc I guess is where your head's out regarding afkers? Need to reread ksc. Ykl I think...god in a vacuum his behavior since D1 looks scummy. Factoring in that he's a newbie and this is a 20-player game I think reduces that to a coin flip. And I have no clue how to read FF. Damdred's the one who seems to have that nailed and I was content to let him do that, since I usually have no trouble with Damdred's alignment. I want to avoid the same trap of 'no way am I the one person you want to lynch' trap that I fell into with Rels. But I still do find it strange that he's like 'rsoul scum' then 'but i could sheep onto the wagon that my one scumread is on'. Should do a proper filter dive for KSC, though. | ||
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The headache @.@. It's not quite at nauseous level but it's getting there. | ||
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On March 23 2018 07:08 Tictock wrote: Have not read your case, but since when is changing ones mind a scummy thing to do? Pretty sure that is much more likely to come from town. I’m realizing that I am probably defending Mocsta more than I should, but I am starting to suspect HF is scum. The last time I saw him have a narrow and unwavering focus like this he was scum. Noting this to remind myself to look into it later. Oh, this. Yeah, I don't think this makes TT scum, either lol >< It also has the benefit of being correct. Not regarding mocsta's alignment, but regarding reads changing. I was really getting the impression that HF was CONVINCED mocsta was scum, and thus getting all suspicious of anyone and everyone who didn't want to lynch mocsta with him. | ||
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On March 24 2018 23:04 raynpelikoneet wrote: No i mean are you planning to follow up on D2 or not? Of course? I plan on diving KSC now, and I'll be back later. Sorry, I was referring to a nap not sleeping the whole afternoon/evening away. | ||
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On March 24 2018 23:10 raynpelikoneet wrote: One thing though. Tell me how am i supposed to work with darthfoley? I try aggressive, it's a shitfest, i try calm and nice, he doesn't do shit. Nh. Yeah I don't really have an answer to this. Townread him last game for what he was posting D1 mostly, and I don't find him hard to work with. Enjoyable even. But he still fucked off and did shit all so -shrugs- Well, I mean the easy answer is to say he could be scum. It's like beetlejuice. He suddenly appears! But I don't know how that helps you work with him if you think he's town. | ||
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On March 24 2018 23:15 Mocsta wrote: yes More diving. Less pontificating about people not even in this game. Like im too lazy to play this cycle so trying not to add waste to my filter Yoy should try it Why so mean? It's not like that was the only thing that post was about? | ||
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Just...too much sarcasm. DF scumread makes sense because that's exactly what DF did his last scum game. Most of his EoD comments were directly related to his read on DF. I can see why people find the mocsta thing weird. I could come up with an explanation for that but he should just answer that question whenever (if) he comes back. The bit about him failing to read his role pm is mostly a joke...he actually did in a game that I played scum with him in, though lol >< But his D1 is definitely town KSC. Almost 100% | ||
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I don't really recall anything he's said since D1, though. And both you and KSC were really sure. KSC's read on him, as I mentioned, was valid regarding just OMGUSing people who scumread him. I don't think it's terribly hard to change in a game once you've realized you've done it, is the thing. Will dive him after my nap @.@ | ||
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On March 24 2018 05:50 rsoultin wrote: + Show Spoiler + \o/ Slam! Town Mocsta Coagulation raynpelikoneet - tone Very Likely Town disformation - level of involvedness Palmar - could be wrong for a number of reasons, but I like what he's posted since N1 Koshi - think he could emulate this level of play as mafia, however his beginning of D2 gives me good feels. he could have just let the cats quarrel and that would have been perfect for scum Slam - tone from his last catch-up on D1 Computer says town but want to reread Moosy - my impression of his scum play was he fell off hard later in the game while still posting periodically. i'm not getting that impression here, but need to double-check to make sure his posts are leading somewhere Needs review darthfoley - tonally i'm finding him more townish since EoD1/N1. need to really look into the arguments and discuss with rayn ksc - felt he was town early D1 and never really gave him a hard look. even the read through I didn't get too far in. could be wrong here tt- seem to remember he made okayish posts, but i'm having trouble placing him in this game. not a good sign Fuck if I know ykl - liked his early tone. could be overwhelmed as town. could be floating under the radar, though FF - a bit more on the scummy side of null. says i'm scum but he'll sheep onto the wagon that i'm voting on Very likely scum N00b - would rather argue about how valuable he is to town than try to be valuable to town Flipping anyway Conversion I'm going to focus on the bottom 7 tomorrow (excluding conv of course), and I'll also discuss any townreads that others want lynched. Probably be on around noonish CET? Maybe a little earlier Noob still hasn't answered my questions -_- I liked the thought process behind the Palmar poke (even if Rayn didn't) specifically regarding how he treated disinfo. Really waffly on this guy. On the one hand, he's adjusted his behavior. Less fighting over wording. Less fighting when we say, blah, this argument isn't important. That's a point to his favor. But just the fact that he hadn't bothered to look at what the flips meant and he hasn't contested that he uses that info to get his reads and that's why he feels D1 is a crapshoot, doesn't sit too easily with me. But given I have stronger reasons to townread a lot of people in this game, waffly isn't good enough to remove him from the lynch pool. Okay, so I've read entirely through DF and TT's filters, and I'm not feeling a lynch on either. Both have that organic responsiveness that I really like (and that I know for a fact makes for a town DF because that's how I read him last game). From my experience, it's just difficult to be that reactive to all the different shinies as scum because you're not actually trying to figure out alignments. Which means I'll be removing them and KSC from today's lynch pool. Which also means if conversion is town (and he likely is but a girl can hope), even if the other three are all scum, I have to be wrong somewhere. Mocsta, rayn and coag I can be pretty confident of. Disinfo has been super involved. Maybe not as organic as TT for example, but I can't see myself lynching him. I agree with rayn's point on Palmar. I don't think it makes him lock town, per se, but I think it's enough to leave him be until after weekend. I think I need to bump koshi down, if not into the 'could lynch today' list, at least into the 'i think that he could definitely play at this level as scum'. There was a shinyness that made me pretty confident he was town last game, and it's not something I can put my finger on, but even though the activity level doesn't seem much different, I'm not as certain on him. It's more of a 'he's okay' than a confident 'he's probably town'. I'm gonna stick with my toneread on slam for now. I think his posting as he pops into thread will clarify my thoughts on him. I also think scum flips could be super informative. My hesitation on calling him town is I can see a couple associations that make me less confident. So that just leaves a moosy dive. Which I completely forgot to do @.@ | ||
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if this, then this, or if not, then that. NK mentioned there not being much direction but never what that actually meant in terms of moosy's alignment, which i find interesting that said, my first thought is it feels townish in moosy's odd way am i right to say your if/then analysis is basically coming from the rels wagon + ykl, Moosy? | ||
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On March 23 2018 10:19 n00bKing wrote: Will make responses to some other posts later, as well as reading up on Tictock's game. For now, he's a perfectly reasonable place for a vote. And since there is already some traction in that direction, I'll happily pile on, and see what that gets us from him. ##Vote: Tictock This seemingly comes from nowhere. He was arguing with TT beforehand, but the only read he actually made on him that I could find before this point was this: On March 21 2018 18:44 n00bKing wrote: I don't have any context on whether it's suspicious for Alakaslam to think that "lazy mafia" are pushing him early game, instead of saving him to be mislynched late game. I DO find it odd that he so confidently named me town in this game. When people voting against me (like HF and Moosy) say they're doing so on the basis that I'm playing the same as the last game. They're right, I'm playing the same as the last game, because I just played my town game for 95% of the last game. HF doesn't seem to know anything about my Town game, and doesn't care. He's just "blah blah, same as other game, blah." Yet while I AGREE with the people voting against me that I'm playing the same as the last game, Alakaslam correctly labels me Town in this game, after all his "classic scum m8" crap from the previous game. Now yes, I pushed him off of his scumread on me in the prior game, and even had him voting against MY lynch target, eventually. But even so, the speed and accuracy of his townread on me here is cause for pause. However, I can't help you lynch him, cuz then he'll OMGUS me, and then once Slam gives the go-ahead, Koshi will lynch me with the heat of a thousand suns. And then I flip town, and people are sad. :D (In all seriousness, Slam is probably fine as a fallback option, with the likes of Rels. From your recent "remove from the lynch pool" list, the only one I disagree with is Rels. I would add to that "remove from the lynch pool" list by putting Tictock in it. I don't have any interest in lynching him. Oh, and me! I should be removed from it too. hehe. I also am not too excited about lynching Conversion, though he's been almost entirely useless, it seems. I can at least hope that he might be useful later. I can't hold out much hope for that in the case of like...Fecalfeast.) Not much reasoning, but he was clearly fine with TT at that point. @NK...what made TT a 'reasonable' lynch? Your post about his D2 entrance came like 8 hours later, so doesn't feel like an explanation for this comment from you. | ||
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On March 23 2018 08:35 Fecalfeast wrote: I honestly don't think I'll be trying too hard so if i have to die to solve the game go for it. Also i guess it does make sense that mocsta should be called town for now. I'll switch to ticktok I don't understand how you go from this to saying I'm scum because it feels like I'm scum and then saying you'll sheep onto noobking. Shouldn't you, in your world, be more convinced that you should be voting TT at that point? | ||
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Sure. But that's not what I was asking. Why would you sheep onto noobking? | ||
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On March 25 2018 04:55 rsoultin wrote: Sure. But that's not what I was asking. Why would you sheep onto noobking? Nvm, this is answered by not knowing I was voting for him. | ||
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At the same time, I got the impression that you were at least a smidge capable of independence last game, despite the barely playing thing. Here you look at Master Holyflare's mocsta then decided he probably isn't fake-claiming. Then vote Master Holyflare's tictock, and say I look like mafia after Master Holyflare calls me underwhelming. I got the impression that you liked that Master Holyflare had the same read as you on NK and that's why you liked him. Was I mistaken? The prospect of going back through not only that game but several others of yours is not one that I really savor three hours before deadline, but maybe I should @.@ | ||
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On March 25 2018 05:08 Fecalfeast wrote: I can cry about how i should have outed when the game filled up past my slot but i'm here now right Give me someone to filter and i'll make a read you get one free ticket Okay, can I get two? The wagons for today? That's asking for more than you offered, but I don't think it's asking too much for you to make an informed vote. I'm currently leaning toward riding out the NK wagon because there are just too many unresolved issues with his play there. (That and mocsta seems fairly entrenched, lol >< But also the former.) I'll be here to talk about what you find. | ||
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On March 25 2018 06:16 n00bKing wrote: I said I am not interested in lynching him today. Can't see why I would say more, when he is not a critical topic for discussion atm. Obviously it would be so that I could get a better read on you, NK. Given you're up for lynch, that seems like a reasonable ask. | ||
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On March 25 2018 06:27 n00bKing wrote: Me not wanting to lynch TT on Day 1 doesn't mean I was "clearly fine" with him. It just means I wasn't looking to lynch him. I had already called him out for his terribly-reasoned vote against Exo. But he was playing the game some, and I felt like I could expect him to keep doing so, at that point. I couldn't have that same kind of expectation for someone like FecalFeast. Or ykl (appeared to be actively hiding from me). Or Slam (appeared to have taken his ball and gone home). Or sicklucker and Rels (neither of whom had made a post yet). Yeah, that's NOT what I said. I said he was a perfectly reasonable place for a vote. You can do more with your vote than just lynch people, which is (part of) why it's pitiful that so many people here wait forever to cast one (if they do so at all). For most games I play in, voting is NOT required by rule. Yet non-voting players are far more common here, where it's actually a rules violation. lol I tacked my vote onto him to help make him the player clearly in the most danger, and see how he reacted to that. While I worked through posting some discussion points for the Phase, then some meta analysis, and then fine-tuning my scumread on Palmar. Since "I know how to accomplish more than one thing at a time." And while you say my post about his D2 entrance didn't come until 8 hours later, so it doesn't feel like an explanation for my comment that he's a good place for a vote....well...it IS an explanation? I can vote for someone first, and then explain it later. For one thing, it gives me an opportunity to award townpoints to anyone who jumps all over the same post for similar reasons. If I had just said "I'm voting against you and here are the reasons why" I'm not going to be able to differentiate between people who see his posts the same way I do, and people just pretending to. I'll concede that it could be an explanation. But if your purpose was only to put pressure on him to see what he did, yet your problem with him was a post that you couldn't see coming from town...you see how that doesn't compute? | ||
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The problem with your vote is 1) it seemed to come out of nowhere 2) your explanation for it came well after the fact 3) it was on your only counterwagon while you only seemed interested in discussing other things You can claim what you want. And it may even be true. But surely you can see how it might look to others like you go, oh, he's my counterwagon. I should vote him. *8 hours later* Oh, yeah, this is my reason. Didn't have one before but now I do. <- This is where I'm sitting right now. And your moosy read interests me because I say, hey, if moosy isn't going in a direction that's his scum meta (in other words, but I trust your reading comprehension enough based on experience to think you understood that) and you respond with 'I think you'll be disappointed'. Now, what does that mean, and why is there some great need for secrecy regarding your opinion on his alignment? | ||
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On March 25 2018 06:51 n00bKing wrote: I feel like there was really only one. It more or less amounted to "what did you discern from the night actions?" Unfortunately, we've had very little information about what the night actions actually were, and the analysis is made more difficult by not knowing how many mafia there are. (Again, that sure would be handy to know!) I haven't had time to complete that analysis, as it takes actual effort. Skimming someone's meta is something I can do while doing something at the same time that isn't game-related. Responding to a bunch of posts in the thread is something that takes almost no time, because I am usually posting from a legit keyboard, and type over 90wpm. I can post comments on other posts almost as quickly as I generate thoughts about them. Analyzing what it means that Vivax and HF appear to have been the night-kill targets is a whole other kind of animal. That said, from what I did get to of the comments from Vivax and HF on other players, other players' comments on Vivax and HF, and mixing in some inductive reasoning, I think HF and Vivax being the night-kills would help me feel better about Exo, mocsta, and Kelsier being town. And to a lesser extent, also Tictock. (So my vote on him was only about the fact that he's had bad posts throughout every stage of the game. I voted for him despite the night results, and not because of them.) Meanwhile, HF and Vivax being the night-kills would make me more suspicious of Palmar, and you. And to a lesser extent, also Koshi and FecalFeast. Not knowing how many mafia there are is a problem again here also, because the fewer of them there are, the more weight you can put on what each one's "desirable kills" would be, based on their play. But I think another factor is that if there is an overbearing personality on the scum team (like a Palmar, for example) then I could see it not mattering what the "desirable kills" would be for potential teammates like ykl or FecalFeast. Palmar might just browbeat them into whatever Night Actions he wanted anyway. Palmar's meta looks slightly scum-indicative to me. His posts in this game (independent of the nightkills or his meta) already felt slightly scummy to me. The fact that he so powerfully scumreads someone I know to be Town does not help anything. Do I find anything in his filter that makes Vivax and Holyflare undesirable Night-kills for him? I do not. Do I think it would make sense for him to eliminate those targets, as maybe being players who have played with him a lot and could potentially use his meta history against him? Yeah, I could possibly see that. So that's the player I would flip today, were it my choice. You are doing something really wonky here with your timing. First you 'don't have time to complete the analysis', then HF and Vivax 'make you feel better about TT', but you voted him 'despite' those results? How can you vote someone despite something that you hadn't looked into yet? | ||
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On March 25 2018 06:58 Mocsta wrote: Tina Did nk ever get back to u on ?slam? Thete was sometjing he suggssted you remind him of? ?? If you're referring to the question that I asked slam regarding NK, NK said he had points that he'd bring up after Slam answered. Slam hasn't. Or are you referring to something else? Also, please see my question for you regarding your association dichotomies. Were those based primarily on the Rels wagon? | ||
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On March 25 2018 07:03 n00bKing wrote: #1 - Good. The more it looked that way, the better. #2 - Good. Already explained. #3 - FALSE. There could be no such thing as a "counterwagon" to me at the time I placed the vote. I had zero votes cast against me, and had no reason to suspect I might BE a wagon on Day 2. Because I don't suffer from the same "diarrhea of the mouth" problem as so many other players here. I don't make the mistake of throwing around information about which surviving players I have "slightly above null" vs. which ones are "townleans" vs. which ones are hard "townreads." I'm not interested in lynching him on Day 2. 'nuff said. I'm gonna be frank with you. The last player who made this assertion was scum by a mile. And the scum motivation for keeping reads close to the chest, especially during the day phase, is also blindingly obvious. If you've stated this mindset of yours before, I suggest you link the game/post to me, because I've got less than an hour to poke into that and I can't guarantee I'd find it. Also, fair regarding the vote @.@ I'm a numbnuts. | ||
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On March 25 2018 07:07 rsoultin wrote: I'm gonna be frank with you. The last player who made this assertion was scum by a mile. And the scum motivation for keeping reads close to the chest, especially during the day phase, is also blindingly obvious. If you've stated this mindset of yours before, I suggest you link the game/post to me, because I've got less than an hour to poke into that and I can't guarantee I'd find it. Also, fair regarding the vote @.@ I'm a numbnuts. I'm having the worst time keeping timings right in my head. Yeah, the whole thing around the tt vote is significantly less scummy, especially considering you came in with your reason also before the votes started piling up by the timestamps. | ||
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I've seen this before. I think from this game? That's not helpful. And if it's from last game it's also not. | ||
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I'm not sure that I'm super happy with an FF vote but that may be the only reasonable place to go, because I'm not feeling TT as scum and feel that FF has a better chance to flip that way. Just don't trust my ability to read him at all. | ||
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On March 25 2018 07:20 n00bKing wrote: I don't really agree. It depends on other factors too. Oh, and on that note, I'm a blue role. @.@ this claim | ||
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On March 25 2018 07:27 n00bKing wrote: shrug? I've claimed less than 10 minutes before deadline before. -facedesks- And you've been the biggest wagon the majority of the phase? I don't know that people will even come back to notice your claim, for one. Secondly, it will be a scramble for all of the lazies. And third, I'm inclined to lynch you anyway if you don't make a hard claim, including night actions. Which may not matter if no one comes back as it is \o/ | ||
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On March 24 2018 17:21 rsoultin wrote: -pokes- you seem to have a pretty good handle on noob. I'm not clear on your posts...do you think he's scum this game? It seems like maybe you don't. You were talking about how they played on the other site and scum basically playing chicken shit. What bugs me most about noob is his focus on afkers to the exclusion of everything but his counterwagon this phase. Am I wrong to be bugged by that? I.e. is that just how he's been taught to scumhunt on the other site because scum there are chicken shit? You do realize that you made me filter dive myself, which you could have easily done, for something that I see no relevance in whatsoever? If this is important, out with it. Otherwise help. | ||
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On March 25 2018 07:32 rsoultin wrote: You do realize that you made me filter dive myself, which you could have easily done, for something that I see no relevance in whatsoever? If this is important, out with it. Otherwise help. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/532111-classic-mafia?page=120#2395 | ||
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You're drunk again, aren't you? | ||
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On March 25 2018 07:49 Tictock wrote: Just gunna also say pre-emptively that NK wasywilling to swap to FF till the end or ever actually push him. FF is almost certainly mafia if NK flips red. Wouldn't shock me at all, especially with him leaving FF off his 'afkers we should consider killing' list | ||
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jesus is truly adorable. if only his skin wasn't so sooooft | ||
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Lol, my mom would wash out my mouth for such blasphemy. | ||
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... i don't even know anymore >< | ||
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nor do i have a fucking clue were scum is. maybe vivax is just town god. koshi could easily be scum. i could easily be wrong on rayn. i don't want to be wrong on palmar, but given how this game has gone pffffft mocsta can even be scum for calling for more modkills, cause what town player wants that | ||
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On March 25 2018 08:07 Mocsta wrote: Rsoultin This isnt a loaded questiin Whats less towny Palmar staying on n00b but not catching up Or rayn jumpijg off? Like i dont see why rayn as scum would feel a need Probabaly did reevaluatr? So palmar is scum? blah i don't fucking know game is hard, means big names are probably scum sometimes scum can't resist the siren call of being right palmar could be scum for his reaction to the flips, too | ||
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the only explanation i have for it is not something that i can say without bordering on flaming | ||
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On March 25 2018 08:14 Tictock wrote: We should prob lynch DF first if we are going by reactions Rsoul. heh, i'm wrong on so much this game, maybe him, too. why not? | ||
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On March 25 2018 08:20 darthfoley wrote: This means all five wagons day 1 were Town man. If that ain't "big boys (or girls) are mafia" idk what is -bows- I'll take the compliment. Not that I deserve it this game. | ||
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so at best we're 8v4 before the nightkills? lol >< maybe worse off? | ||
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On March 25 2018 08:31 rsoultin wrote: blah lex decided to play hero league so now i can't have him distract me from the game and can't keep away @.@ so at best we're 8v4 before the nightkills? lol >< maybe worse off? is it awful that i'm actually praying for a serial killer with good reads? | ||
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On March 25 2018 08:35 Koshi wrote: Hahaha. Brutal. Well. At this point I am interested how good my list will hold up. Been okish so far. Wrong on Conversion. But with all mid tier players getting murdered I am either quite right or very wrong. No, you baddies. Just, oh look, I might have good reads \o/ Not making me feel like you're more likely to be town here. | ||
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Town koshi isn't shining through. Palmar is playing on the weekend. Slam might be the third. Not sure on the fourth. FF can always be scum. Or just not. Cause yeah, how does anyone read FF? I'd advise against going for the low-hanging fruit. Put on y'all's big-boy pants, because if we just lynch players who always look like they could be scum, that's game unless we get the luck of the draw. Will have to reread everything and see what looks different @.@ If you're town, DF, I need you to pull out all the stops. You and mocsta. If my world is in any way near the truth, we're going to have to do the heavy lifting. And I can't confidently say you're town here, DF. Make my life easier. | ||
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-pokes disinfo and tt- i feel y'all are more town than the names i've put down above. You did great work on a day where town was getting comfortably lynched and no effort was happening in the thread from hardly anyone. I find that really unlikely to come from scum. Will also need y'all's help tonight. | ||
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On March 25 2018 08:47 rsoultin wrote: I just forgot rayn again...at least his tone felt pretty town rayn to me in several spots. I'll have to reread his filter closely and really think on it. -pokes disinfo and tt- i feel y'all are more town than the names i've put down above. You did great work on a day where town was getting comfortably lynched and no effort was happening in the thread from hardly anyone. I find that really unlikely to come from scum. Will also need y'all's help tonight. Actually, rayn is probably just town because of this, too. Mafia getting antsy moving to FF when a town lynch was secured vs. town trying to solve the game? Tips the balance to the side of town. Moosy could be scum. Moosy could very much be scum for only focusing on random dichotomies and that last-minute vote. Moosy, you're with DF here. If you're town, I need you to pull out all the stops and stop doing this lazy analysis thing that appears to be purely associative. | ||
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Help me, then? | ||
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On March 25 2018 08:59 Koshi wrote: You wont believe me. But I am not mafia. Trust your opinion on my content. Not the amount of my post. Then get shiny. Insinuating that I'm basing it on your post count disregards how often I've correctly townread you on similarly sparse posts. Re: rayn, no. No, I'm not certain. It's a townlean at this point. Re: dis. Okay. Meta dive is in order for tomorrow then. I'm assuming keeping this much interest and activity up unnecessarily is difficult, but some people still can. | ||
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Good to see Slam is allowed to stay alive though. I wonder why.[/QU I assume it's because he posted. I'm not saying this because I think you actually wonder, but so we can stop speculating about something as retarded as hosts only modkilling townies and not scum. I have more respect for Calix than that. | ||
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this is where a town concede button would just be so nice >< okay, so slam isn't the third scum koshi/palmar even more likely to be scum though \o/ | ||
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we are now at 7v4...like legitimately this game may end tonight fucking hell then again, that might be merciful | ||
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and i'm just going to try to find scum for post-game cred | ||
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On March 25 2018 09:15 darthfoley wrote: Nah we ain't conceding this shit. I want to win just so n00bking can + Show Spoiler + fuck off lol that's the spirit >< | ||
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On March 25 2018 09:18 Tictock wrote: I'm just going to throw out the option of scum conceding and all of us just calling this game a terrible terrible wash? Is that something we could do? try and convince them that they don't want to win a game this lame? have at it okay, now i'm legitimately just spamming going to bed. will tackle this in the morning. go on my non-euro minions! df <3 i'd love for you to prove my earlier filter dive right and stick it to nk who is probably gloating in obs about how awful this site and its players are | ||
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More to self to check theory in morning. You also may be right on rayn. My general thought with him is he'd be less likely to adapt to how I read him with many other bigger names in the game. Might not be true if mafia is just hella stacked though. | ||
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On March 25 2018 10:31 Mocsta wrote: Out of those 3, the only with potential to be an alpha is palmar. The others are more control freaks. wanting to be in control and alpha are not the same thing. I say this because, whilst the observation that rayn should be more "controlling" or in your words "alpha" is true. being mafia is not the only explanation for this. in fact, if rayn was mafia and happy with the town direction (i.e. slitting each other throats). i can see no reason for him to back away from reads as it draws unncessary attentino when hes not going to look terrible regardless. rayn = town. I'm not certain on rayn, really. But I used to catch him for lack of inclusivity, then he adjusted when I was in a position to lead town and fooled the shit out of me. That would make him less likely to tunnel like a blind banshee in this game I think. So my toneread on him may be tainted by his catering to me. Which is way more likely in a strong mafia team I think. If we have a medic hero we have plenty of time to thoroughly consider this. Or some of y'all do. I'm going to put this out here...I actually think ff may be town lol >< | ||
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On March 25 2018 10:35 Tictock wrote: Feeling like I could let DF into the town circle based off feels from the latest bit of posting, though I'm personally offended he still hasn't developed some kind of opinion on me yet. Checking the last page or so of filter from Dis doesn't change my last opinion of him. Like he is posting and talking about stuff, but not really scratching his head and getting invested in his reads. Idk Rsoul you might need to sell me on a Dis townread ignoring his blueclaim. Yeah meta dive is definitely in order. I could easily be wrong there. | ||
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On March 25 2018 10:39 Alakaslam wrote: I still have to read, could ask you the same lol. Still couldn’t tell from your filter. Work went long and I’m about to go into town for a few drinks. But I’ll be back and I’ll finish reading You've been modkilled dude. Ggs | ||
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-snorts- at least it looks like he lost track of when deadline was? The goober lol >< And yeah, Df, you're making me feel a ton better about you right now | ||
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On March 25 2018 10:48 Mocsta wrote: yeah, but whats a stacked mafia team? like, if you want to say palmar + koshi + rayn its equally offset by for example: you, hf, df + me (& n00b lol) look, if rayn was mafia, i would prefer to consider him as the final mafia i suppose i can consider moosy #1 after what DF posted, and that, with all that trolling then reverts to more trolling and always wants to know what others think of him. hmm, i didnt read him in medic though to know if there is a similarity at all. That's fair. And yeah, wouldn't lynch rayn before others anyway. | ||
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On March 25 2018 10:52 darthfoley wrote: Yes I agree. Koshi and Moosy should always be lynched before rayn I think. Maybe Palmar too but idk I'll filter moosy and Palmar later Palmar was an emotional reaction in the moment for me. Need to look into him after finally going to bed @.@ if I want that post game cred heh | ||
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On March 25 2018 10:56 Tictock wrote: If I go with latest feels: Town Circle: rsoultin darthfoley Probably shouldn't lynch tomorrow: Mocsta disformation Leaves this group: raynpelikoneet Palmar Fecalfeast Coagulation Koshi MoosyDoosy Rayn and Palmar both feel more likely to be town than not. Coag is prob always a coinflip and not worth loosing the game on. Frustrating as shit to have in the game right now, but that is the game we are getting. So the lynch tomorrow has to be between: Fecalfeast Koshi MoosyDoosy I'd prob say the safe lynch there is Moosy. Id argue koshi but there's not a huge distinction between the two. | ||
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On March 25 2018 11:22 darthfoley wrote: And Koshi is mafia not because he's been forgettable (indeed, he has). Rather, he's mafia because he has strategically refused to move the game forward during key points for town. Tell me if these quotes remind you of anyone in this game... ding ding ding: https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/whXRitDyx58Ha This is textbook Koshi scum play. Lol >< that's all but a smoking gun | ||
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On March 25 2018 11:26 Tictock wrote: Yea this progression on Conversion is weird, Koshi not even following his own track of thoughts. One thing for him to change his mind, but this looks more like he just doesn't care. How likely is it that both are Mafia? If so who might the +2 be? Rayn actually seems likely in this case, he has been confident Moosy is town, and I don't actually recall him talking about Koshi. Nh. Well, actually he's gotten loads better at reading moosy. So the townread if moosy is scum is a point against rayn. | ||
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Rayn, we have 7v4. Unless we have a medic/jk who pulls out one helluva save this game is probably already over. Mocsta/df/tt are basically lock town for even bothering to try to solve the game at this point. You are basically lock town for that...emotional display. Nicest way I can put it. I doubt you're being wrong on me will matter cause I'll probably be dead after the night phase if game is even still going. Help us with our town circle? What do you think of koshi? Moosy? Meta diving disinfo today, then I'll discuss you with him. | ||
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On March 25 2018 17:25 Mocsta wrote: Oh my god What if scum didnt believe disfo and shot him No medic Like.vig vet and tracker Really think theres a 4th? Then hosts are trolling us? Or we only have two nks coming in? Or tt and rayn are just right and disinfo is scum fake-claiming. \o/ i choose hope! I like the odds of getting the whole scum team tonight. Only need to find the towny in dis/palmar/ff | ||
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On March 25 2018 17:52 Mocsta wrote: Lol agreed as far as im concerned lynch order is: koshi -> palmar then we are all dead anyways, and its up to the lurkers. Need to read your stuff on palmar more closely. I'm such shit at reading him lol >< and I don't think I can confidently read ff ever. So I'm hoping one of palmar/disinfo just shots town rainbows or both are so obvious scum I don't have to worry about sussig out ff Going to stop spamming now (trying to keep the energy up so town can come show themselves...really think investment is a HUGE towntell this phase even if town has every reason to feel discouraged) I actually woke up happy because I think so many of the distractions have now been removed that the game is genuinely solvable for the first time. (At least for me >< Lol others have probably had better reads) | ||
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On March 25 2018 18:03 disformation wrote: don't think hoshi did actually read df filter. at the very least there is no follow up. first mention of conv in his filter: and I'm not sure I'm the person he would want to sheep Sweet. Welcome. Agreed that koshi is definitely scum. Do you disagree with our town circle? Df/mocsta/tt/rayn | ||
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On March 25 2018 18:08 rsoultin wrote: Sweet. Welcome. Agreed that koshi is definitely scum. Do you disagree with our town circle? Df/mocsta/tt/rayn Oh and coag. Knew my numbers were off lol >< | ||
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If there's time I may just try to find a game where Damdred has explained his read on ff and see if I can run that against a base of his town/scum games and if I can reliably detect the difference. Speaking of, do you remember such a game where it was explained, ff? | ||
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/519746-generic-mini-mafia His last scum game. I'm reviewing it now. Also got like a miiiilllion tabs open to try to notice patterns but this guy is a huge talker. Could take me awhile. | ||
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On March 25 2018 22:21 disformation wrote: reading ppl solely based on activity is seldom a good idea. True. Unfortunately, I don't know what else you have going for you I was reading your activity as investment. It clearly is not alignment indicative, though.Meanwhile, I was reading TT and DF for organic shiny finding in their investment, which actually is a quite good metric -shrugs- My gut says you just fake-claimed vet. You were very shiny when you replaced into my scum game @.@ and I totally forgot about that, probably because I pay less attention when I'm scum. You are not a very shiny player in this game. Which is probably the most unscientific way to describe a read ever, but I'm going to see if my gut instincts about your play here are reflected through your work of games \o/ You've also been quite unshiny since the flips. TT was shiny. DF was hella shiny. Rayn was shiny in his drunken OMG RSOUL SAID SOMETHING I CAN'T MAKE SENSE OF MUST BE 100% SCUM?!!!!! Mocsta is shiny. Even slam was adorably shiny lol >< Koshi and Moosy aren't shiny at all. Palmar was pretty blaise, as well. Coag gets a pass. Want to know my theory? Scum just got a whopping 4 kills closer to winning this game and (if three kp) will win after this phase barring next-level night actions. Hellooooo, zero motivation. You're keeping bad company, my friend. But I have 7-8 hours (I think) to confirm those suspicions if there's any meat there. And you have 7-8 hours to suddenly start gleaming like a Christmas tree. Good luck. | ||
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On March 25 2018 22:53 disformation wrote: didn't think "disformation - level of involvedness" translates to "hits post button a lot". It didn't precisely. It was about you poking into everything everyone was saying and 'double-checking' it on a very very slow day with very few people contributing. Now I think that was too low a threshold for you. My apologies for underestimating town disfo lol >< | ||
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On February 08 2018 05:48 disformation wrote: anecdote on that teammate interaction: i was once scum together with mderg (in onegu is the best host mafia part 2) and when i look at my filter that game, i see a lot of lines like: "Don't remember much of mderg, probably a bad sign. Need to look at this filter." "Prolly should look at kush again... and I nearly forgot to look at mdergs filter." "@mderg: has your view on grack and luna changed with the recent events? or still pro grack lynch and contra luna lynch?" soo... this might be super biased and slightly unfair, cause you are obviously not me... but my gut is calling you scum for that xD Form his last town game, Vendee. This is gold. | ||
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On March 25 2018 22:52 Calix wrote: Friendly reminder of the current deadline for those of you who are affected by DST. Night ends in just over 9 hours from this post. ;o; Lex has us getting up at 5:30 tomorrow because he has an early, and I got maybe 4 hours...this is just mean ;o; Guess I'll just have to wake up to flips/endgame lol >< | ||
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On March 25 2018 13:40 raynpelikoneet wrote: Dont even care about the fact all reads here are not actually reads but some idk... just some mindless shouting. Then there is the fact that i am not "wanted to lead the town" and neither am i scum. I am definitely just a lurker or what? Tina fucked up. Murder scum. While showing this to Lex I just realized...this post is probably one of the most adorable things you've ever written <3 Sorry I hurt your feelings. It's just, game is really hard when you realize Viva was the rightest town on D1 lol >< | ||
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On March 25 2018 23:39 disformation wrote: meanwhile in actual moosy filter: not sure I quite follow. moosy was also jumping around a lot, but outside of the rels thing it imo makes sense in a moosy kinda way. I have no earthly clue what you're trying to say here. Can you explain it like I'm five? | ||
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On March 26 2018 00:12 Mocsta wrote: ??? Vivax was hard scum on exo and kelsier. Bith town? I don't mean in his actual reads. I mean in his game sense. His actual reads were why I discounted his game sense. But apparently it said, 'hey, feels like normally strong town players are scum'. I'm almost 100% sure Koshi is scum. Palmar could easily be scum, too. That's good game sense. | ||
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On March 26 2018 00:12 disformation wrote: so I was looking at moosy's eod1. the first two quotes are back to back. he was voting mocsta at the time. so I don't understand how why he wants to vote rels for rels voting mocsta and then is like nah maybe ill sheep him. then I am like "he is generally jumping around a lot too, but that other stuff kinda makes sense". but I have to add that It kinda makes sense in moosy world. stuff like: What about it makes sense in moosy world? What you quoted now is OMGUS. Rels is just...what? | ||
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On March 26 2018 00:18 Mocsta wrote: Btw Disfo is spaced enough from me to be blue lol Such a weird player breakdown Is it rabdom??? Um...I'm pretty sure the hosts have been moving the names to consolidate the flips. I wasn't keeping that close a watch but preeeettty sure. Lol >< | ||
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On March 26 2018 00:18 rsoultin wrote: What about it makes sense in moosy world? What you quoted now is OMGUS. Rels is just...what? | ||
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On March 26 2018 01:10 disformation wrote: like I'm not sure what your question here to me is Ah, I think I misunderstood. I thought you were saying that the Rels vote made sense in moosy world. So do you have a conclusion on Moosy or was that just...telling me what moosy voted? | ||
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On March 26 2018 00:22 disformation wrote: nah. I was like "well lets say all wagons d1 were town, scum prolly didn't give a flying fuck" so I went through the remaining players d1 to see what they did like eod1. order should be from playerlist? maybe. skipped mocsta cause 99% town. or game is kinda over already. skipped rs cause filter too big. Yeah so...you were reading DF on his being invested in a lynch in which he was the wagon...waffling on that...while simultaneously making your starting assumption that all of the wagons were town...which would include him. | ||
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On March 26 2018 01:19 Koshi wrote: Amazing. Good read on Noobking Slam!! I should have trusted myself more around nk. Hello koshi. Welcome back to the game. Did you forget that you already 'reacted' to the flip? Do you perhaps have any amazeballs pearls of wisdom for us? | ||
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On March 26 2018 04:26 rsoultin wrote: then be town and care moosy lol just to be clear, omgusing does not qualify as caring why is koshi town, moosy? | ||
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no, you answer my question first I'm probably getting shot tonight \o/ | ||
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On March 26 2018 04:29 MoosyDoosy wrote: see this shit? rsoultin, darthfoley, tictock sudden 180 on my alignment and put me at the bottom of the barrel And? There were four modkills. Five flips. Your version of the world is that the scum team got into the thread (plus FF) and started jerking off together for lolz while town did fuck all, just to pocket what, the all-but-confirmed town vig? When it should be obvious why after five flips people are changing their reads. Now why is koshi town? | ||
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On March 26 2018 04:30 MoosyDoosy wrote: i don't mind ignoring you because you are mafia. also why you are not getting shot tonight that's a retarded question it's okay. I can ignore you, too. but see, if this game is even going tomorrow, I probably won't be here. you will. then who looks like the numbnuts? rofl >< | ||
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well, if you're town you'll answer because you'll want to be readable, to others not scum!rsoul who is oooooh so scummy and evil mhm or you can just keep spouting nonsense, not caring, not putting any real analysis in beyond votes, dropping off just like your scum game later in the game, and mock people because #reasons if you're town and that's how you've decided to play, i'm hardly going to shed tears about being wrong about you | ||
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On March 26 2018 04:38 MoosyDoosy wrote: AHAHAHAHAHAHHAAH rayn and me are on the same page. this is a feelsgoodman. There is absolutely no way town!rsoultin makes that post lol you don't even know why he posted that. anyway, peace, dude have fun in your shitting up the thread campaign by yourself | ||
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coag is coag maybe i'm wrong on you, moosy. i could see that being possible, but see, there is no world here where koshi is ever, ever town. my impression of your play is you bring some serious analysis to the table after a short trolling period...you still have fun but the analysis is there a lot of what you're saying as your meta (and my memory of your play is years' old, which is why i could be wrong or you could just have changed) is a very black and white unnuanced thing that is 1) hugely self-aware and 2) extremely easy to emulate can you link me a game where you went a whole day phase just association reading? and I know you can still troll as scum because I recall that in my last meta dive of you. so that's not a black-and-white thing, either my problem is very much your d2...possibly n1 but definitely d2 i can give you the benefit of the doubt and talk to you like i might be wrong. can you do me the same courtesy? i want that post-game cred! \o/ and we're living in very different worlds if we're both town | ||
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On March 26 2018 05:01 MoosyDoosy wrote: If you think rayn is town then you think I am town. If you think rayn has gotten better at reading me you think I am town. I think rayn can be wrong on you -shrugs- I have never trusted rayn's read on you over mine, for obvious reasons. Even if he seems to have gotten better at reading you in obs. | ||
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On March 26 2018 05:05 MoosyDoosy wrote: also the reason why I think tictock is still scum is because how D2 turned out. It turned from "Vote tictock he's scum!" to gradual change to "Hey noobking is the next best thing why don't we kill him instead!" and then noobking flipped town. Scum probably changed thread sentiment from tictock to noobking because he is scum partner and they know noobking is town. I can't be mad because i also fell for this since I also thought noobking was scum Okay? This really isn't based on much other than NK was town. What prevents them from both being town? | ||
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On March 26 2018 05:09 MoosyDoosy wrote: i apologize for being an asshole in this moment but to be frank i do not give a shit if you read me as town or mafia. and yes, me being an asshole and not giving a shit is also town meta It's fine if you don't give a shit (and yet are basing your read on me on it? lol) what I read you. I still want to know how you see the game, because I like being right. | ||
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Kinda rude, btw, that you hold my ability to read you when I clearly did not have any sort of soul read on you last game to a higher standard than your own on me, but whatever. If that's town moosy I guess that's town moosy. I can decide later if I think that's true or not lol >< In other news, Lex says if I stay up to play the game through deadline he'd rather I sleep on the couch @.@ Rude men ftw | ||
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inorite? Worse, when he's staying up later to prepare for his night shifts he always comes to bed in the wee hours lol >< It's okay, though. I asked what he'd prefer and the Dutch do have this tendency of being ridiculously honest heh | ||
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The OMGUS you're just scum or bad I don't even care, you're scum to me so I don't care about talking to you...I don't think it's impossible to come from a town moosy, but it's an awfully convenient way to avoid having to discuss anything with me so he can just continue pushing this 'everyone active in the thread after flips was mafia \o/ (minus mocsta cause claim but I'm gearing up to call him scum later with all these saved posts, and plus ff cause ff is always an easy add-on to a potential scum team)' Like I said, I don't think it's impossible to come from a town moosy. But I just don't think it would come in the same way and be without any real consideration whatsoever other than you're reading me wrong! So if I give him the benefit of the doubt on this and say maybe this is my bias speaking, that brings it to NAI, and D2 is still missing the drive that I would expect from a town moosy. The TT is scum because NK is town (insert narrative here) read is really shallow. Association reads could well be part of his town meta, but my memory of his town play was not a long litany of if x is scum/town y is scum/town without any real analysis behind it. I remember being able to discuss things with him and having fun. So yeah. Maybe I'm just snorting monoxide as he claims lol >< And maybe he starts shitting town rainbows later and proves me wrong. I rather doubt it, though. | ||
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If disfo is scum, Palmar would have already been bussing him, so why bother backing down when it looks weird? Which is kinda awful because I also just kinda want to call FF town for even less reason. So one of these has to be wrong. May have to content myself with a lynch pool of five, even if that's not gonna get that oh so shiny post-game cred Think I'm too tired to get anything new out of Palmar's filter. | ||
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On March 26 2018 07:16 Mocsta wrote: rsoultin, i hate to muddy waters, but i dont understand the rayn hard town read either - for the drunken posting. if anything thats a scum indicator (i.e. getting mad that town are unfoiling the mafia plans).. at least it reminded me of when i angry posted, last. all i mean is, i would consider rayn a lynch option for the final slot. I get that. Part of it is tonally he just has felt very town to me all game. Pushing after things he finds inconsistent, but still willing to listen. My waffle was he absolutely knows how I read him, and has fooled me before with it. Though you're right that in this game even if Koshi and (maybe?) Palmar were scum, there's still a lot of strong town players who don't read him that way, so it's probably still a stretch that he'd make the effort to go that distance just for me. (For frame of reference, I used to call him out as scum quite early and quite accurately because he'd just scream his head off without trying to involve people and also get reads off of them based on what he was seeing, and then he adjusted and stopped being so obvious ;o;) But his angry post was deeply personal. If you reread it closely, his primary issue was that I neither had him in my list of four scummers, or the town leader circle I was building. It was hurt pride. And it's also basically the crux of why he so very frequently scumreads me when we're both town (i.e. I say something that he thinks I can't possibly believe, though usually it's disagreeing with his reasoning somewhere). There's just absolutely no reason for his pride to be hurt if he's scum. Yay, he fooled me! Right? Between that and his tone all game, I just can't see him being anything but town here. | ||
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And yeah, I get that the rayn read is hugely meta-based and on top of that personal, but, you know, I'm me lol >< I don't have the gift of believing one thing and pushing that read with different (more persuadable) reasoning. Is persuadable a word? | ||
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On March 26 2018 07:51 Mocsta wrote: Anyways, the more I think about it. disfo is scum. I really dont see how we have 4 blue roles. and I am certain scum would never withhold KP on Night 1 and disfo certainly was not shot to test the vest. So Day3 lynch = Disfo Day4 lynch = Koshi Day 5 lynch = Moosy [b]I believe we need 2 KP blocks to keep this game going if remaining lynches are successful; which will be a big ask. As I think 3 mafia will need to be lynch before KP drops to 1.... Final mafia is dependent on who is still standing. Just have to hope extra kp was a one-shot? | ||
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Koshi 100% scum. All you need to see that is reading his posts post-flip. Too happy about players getting themselves modkilled, the comment about Slam, etc. Add to that his complete lack of influence on the game. *Palmar 98% scum. I lied The way he delurked on weekend to attack n00bking both when NK first brought up the contradiction in his perception of blue claims, and when NK claimed blue, is not only opportunistic but counter to how Palmar normally plays weekends as town. Which is to say, he doesn't. Moreover, it was a classic strawman argument that he made. Namely, that he was saying he didn't push it as he should in the last game so NK was lying. But obviously he 1) did push it with just a few minutes left to go and 2) if he saw it as a mistake he's more likely to try to get such blue claims lynched harder in the future. A strawman argument, given Palmar, doesn't make him scum normally but I'd say it almost certainly does when he makes it seriously. If I get nk'd tonight, he's also probably the reason. Though, to be fair, I probably was going to get NK'd regardless of the scum team. Also, his reactions after the flips were only slightly better than koshi's.(sorry, rayn. I did find your point plausible, I just don't think he thinks people are going to go digging up old games to see if his approach to the game on that specific point line up. And I actually think it makes disfo a bit more likely to be scum, as well) Moosy 90% scum. I think there's an eentsy beentsy chance I'm just expecting too much of him. I think he's hoping to bank on Rayn's read and a general perception that he's just a trolly, useless player. To me, he never has been. And because I don't want to call him useless or anything if I happen to be wrong here, I'm just going to say this would have to be a very off game for him given the Moosy I remember, to reduce his game post flips to blind associations everywhere and little interaction with other players. disformation 60% scum. Wasn't lying about saying fuck it regarding filters. So this is more feels and intuition based off his play in vendee where he was pretty on the ball and off doing whatever he wanted and dumping analysis into the thread. Here it's less like he's poking into things and finding things that interest him, but rather being led by the nose where to sniff. I don't mind waffling when I can see people have points in favor and points against that they want to express to show what's making them unsure. With him, though, there's just too many posts where he talks without really saying anything, like his read on Moosy. That's a different kind of waffle. Caveat is yeah, I'm basing this off two games and confirming he can be active as fuck as scum. FF 55% town. Putting him at a slight townread because of how he interacted with me at EoD 2. It just seemed very open and honest, like a puppy ;o; This is obviously a very weak read and if I'm wrong on anyone it's probably him and one of disfo/moosy (more likely disfo than moosy). DF, TT, rayn and Mocsta are always town here (even though I'd love for Mocsta to be our friendly neighborhood SK ;o;). You can of course disagree. But I still stand by my scum probably has next to no motivation to play when the game could probably literally end tonight. Rayn's outburst I don't think ever comes from scum for reasons I've already said. Coag...if this is the game man, kudos? | ||
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that's why. you guys wanted me dead. lol >< didn't count that jking me would have ended the game but i totes get that it's like...if we block her we can't kill her yeeeeaaahh i'm going to pretend my play through d2 wasn't shite, and that i wasn't scumreading koshi and moosy when i died and be like \o/ played well! -snorts- i honestly just started trying hard to play the game n2 cause i knew if i got rb'd and palmar was almost definitely mafia so i should get rb'd the game was over. but maybe i could make them rethink the blueread by being 'we have to shoot her rsoul', or at least game them by townreading palmar so that i could then jk him and stop a shot lol >< kinda expected the game to end n2 tbf though @mocsta, good read man. if i have as many doubts on rayn as i did this game again i'm going to know not to dismiss it as paranoid in future lol >< | ||
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dumb trusting rsoul lol | ||
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On March 28 2018 14:16 raynpelikoneet wrote: I will tell you a secret, after, or well starting from 1-day mafia i have been playing mostly against you when i am mafia aka breaking my meta because i am not sure what i can get away with and not with you the most. I am so rude. fucking hell >< and here i was...god he has played to how i read him before...but it's a 20 player game i don't think he bothers with just me here... you ass lol >< also, apparently if i hadn't been a dumbass and thought I'd outed myself to palmar i wouldn't have know that y'all knew, and wouldn't have tried to game you -snickers- that's kinda...hilarious i would never have known i had to play fake out the scum if i hadn't been an idiot in the first place \o/ | ||
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buuuut shoulda woulda coulda that's easy to claim. the ham on palmar bit definitely woulda happened though i'm clearly shite at crumbs. koshi got it i think <3 everyone else didn't? | ||
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On March 28 2018 14:27 raynpelikoneet wrote: Tina i didn't really got you were blue and i don't know why Palmar and / or disfo decided to watch you N1 but it was a really good call. Only thing i said about night actions was "if i am getting tracked or something i will blame you guys" when they were about to make me deliver a kill. eh i was playing shite and mafia knew i was town. not shocked honestly | ||
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On March 28 2018 14:31 Mocsta wrote: I hope as a fact thats not true; so its a shame you felt that way. I think day3 is a different story as its LYLO, and so many qusetion marks in general. Im always willing to listen to what people say; but, my interpretation of what they are saying is heavily influenced by what I perceive their intention. This is a messy way of saying I don't treat all facts the same way! Its very hard to emulate this, and its certainly something I don't do as scum because it does put so much heat on you. Like you + palmar ebbed in/out of being scummy to me all game; so kudos for changing post strat to suit. -flops on- I really, really like the n2 town circle we had going though. You, tt, and df helped me tons by being such easy townreads. And leading me to disfo. You guys had every right to want to quit but hung in there. I'm the only one who knew we had a chance but couldn't really say it lol >< Sorry for steering people wrong on the raynman >> | ||
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Sorry, moosy :/ I just really expected you to work with people more. The off in a corner muttering about association reads threw me off. Bad read on my part. Though you really should have talked to me rather than saying I was scum or dumb it's super hard to get out of a wrong read when that's the reaction you get. | ||
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On March 28 2018 14:37 Mocsta wrote: u crumbed? dayam. i wasnt going to look through 19 page filter for it! hahah Lol >< I asterixed his name? Plus I said I'd lied about townreading him? I guess it was too subtle? Or I just assumed people would get into my head and connect the dots between 'why would she lie about a read', oh 'she's jk it was to get the jk off on scum' heh | ||
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On March 26 2018 07:58 rsoultin wrote: If I Die Before I Wake Koshi 100% scum. All you need to see that is reading his posts post-flip. Too happy about players getting themselves modkilled, the comment about Slam, etc. Add to that his complete lack of influence on the game. *Palmar 98% scum. I lied The way he delurked on weekend to attack n00bking both when NK first brought up the contradiction in his perception of blue claims, and when NK claimed blue, is not only opportunistic but counter to how Palmar normally plays weekends as town. Which is to say, he doesn't. Moreover, it was a classic strawman argument that he made. Namely, that he was saying he didn't push it as he should in the last game so NK was lying. But obviously he 1) did push it with just a few minutes left to go and 2) if he saw it as a mistake he's more likely to try to get such blue claims lynched harder in the future. A strawman argument, given Palmar, doesn't make him scum normally but I'd say it almost certainly does when he makes it seriously. If I get nk'd tonight, he's also probably the reason. Though, to be fair, I probably was going to get NK'd regardless of the scum team. Also, his reactions after the flips were only slightly better than koshi's.(sorry, rayn. I did find your point plausible, I just don't think he thinks people are going to go digging up old games to see if his approach to the game on that specific point line up. And I actually think it makes disfo a bit more likely to be scum, as well) Moosy 90% scum. I think there's an eentsy beentsy chance I'm just expecting too much of him. I think he's hoping to bank on Rayn's read and a general perception that he's just a trolly, useless player. To me, he never has been. And because I don't want to call him useless or anything if I happen to be wrong here, I'm just going to say this would have to be a very off game for him given the Moosy I remember, to reduce his game post flips to blind associations everywhere and little interaction with other players. disformation 60% scum. Wasn't lying about saying fuck it regarding filters. So this is more feels and intuition based off his play in vendee where he was pretty on the ball and off doing whatever he wanted and dumping analysis into the thread. Here it's less like he's poking into things and finding things that interest him, but rather being led by the nose where to sniff. I don't mind waffling when I can see people have points in favor and points against that they want to express to show what's making them unsure. With him, though, there's just too many posts where he talks without really saying anything, like his read on Moosy. That's a different kind of waffle. Caveat is yeah, I'm basing this off two games and confirming he can be active as fuck as scum. FF 55% town. Putting him at a slight townread because of how he interacted with me at EoD 2. It just seemed very open and honest, like a puppy ;o; This is obviously a very weak read and if I'm wrong on anyone it's probably him and one of disfo/moosy (more likely disfo than moosy). DF, TT, rayn and Mocsta are always town here (even though I'd love for Mocsta to be our friendly neighborhood SK ;o;). You can of course disagree. But I still stand by my scum probably has next to no motivation to play when the game could probably literally end tonight. Rayn's outburst I don't think ever comes from scum for reasons I've already said. Coag...if this is the game man, kudos? | ||
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On March 28 2018 14:41 Mocsta wrote: All good. I think everyone had someone they was not willing to budge on. Vivax = Kelsier rsoultin = Rayn TT = Disfo and so, on. Tough game and # of blues was lol. Sure this was a classic ;P ? only after his drunk post @.@ which you were right on, incidentally and TT makes a ton of sense. i can't blame him for thinking that there can't be a mafia vet when he gets vet returned as a role just like i can't blame people in general for wanting to lynch into blues with so many blue claims. the balance wasn't what we're used to seeing | ||
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i'm not a good blue player at least this time i didn't claim d2 thinking missing kp meant i'd jk'd scum without pausing to think about the other scenarios, and then my lovely friend who always scumreads me (ExO) who was an alignment cop, outs to say i'm godfather because his town result was colored green and not blue. i saw it coming (not the last bit, just the lead up to the role reveal) and was like, no, no, they have a framer stop ;o; now two blues will have claimed for nothing. but it was even sillier lol >< incidentally palmar and sl were scum there and won that game too lol >< | ||
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On March 28 2018 14:54 Mocsta wrote: Lol. hey, you did something absolutely right n2 to keep the game going, so well done! dont beat yaself up.. hey.. im the guy that genuinely thought mafia could only be strongman or backup and outed myself. i never recovered from that - at least thats my excuse this game I was hoping our first town-town game would have resulted in at least one successful lynch  lol it might have...this game was weird in many ways @.@ bad reads don't help \o/ you're super fun to play with though so I hope you keep playing i also really enjoy playing with df? don't want to get that convo started again but yeah, just putting that out there then again joni is a good friend and i've never minded ksc so maybe i'm just jaded lol | ||
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On March 28 2018 15:09 Mocsta wrote: Yeah, you too. I doubt I will play again any time soon though. Mafia is *such* a timesink. Im amazed that people can separate themselves from the obsesssion of the puzzle - i certainly struggle to do it. I'm only playing again now that I'm unemployed/not studying, so I hear you lol | ||
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I don't know that I'd be as superlative, but you're still one of the best even with less time, which is very impressive And he might be right in the sense that of the best town players you probably have the best scum game heh.I 100% agree on marv, though. Being almost 100% readable as town because either your scum game is bad or you just refuse to play as scum knocks you out of the running imo. It's a lot easier to play as 'confirmed'. | ||
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On March 28 2018 16:29 Vivax wrote: I'm of the opinion voice mafia makes for a much better game cause text is an awful way of conveying things and also it's much easier to catch mafia from their attitude rather than content. Also rage is basically nonexistent and it always yields some laughs. It's a lot more fun at least! No one gets weeks worth of invested lol >< | ||
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On March 28 2018 18:38 disformation wrote: aight fair enough. prolly more annoyed at myself for not thinking straight and getting played by rs lying bout the plamar read. like either should have made coag or myself carry the shot or go for block rs and shoot mocsta/whoever. both options would have been better than what i did. i do not like making mistakes. xD but as i said you gotta learn from your mistakes lol >> i lied about the palmar read because he referenced my crumb on rayn after hard-defending me...and yeah i started scumreading him around NK and the modkills cemented that since they removed a lot of distractions bascially i knew that if my read on palmar was right i was 100% being watched for my reads (if not rb'd but if that was the case there was nothing i could do about it anyway). so i had to townread palmar but not so hard that it would look obvious i'm so happy it worked \o/ | ||
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On March 28 2018 19:36 disformation wrote: aight thanks rayn. *shakes fist at tina* foiled yet again. and i would have gotten away with it if it wasnt for you meddling kids! edit: yeah wtb one of those seals lol you still won the next day phase so joke's on me | ||
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On March 28 2018 21:04 Holyflare wrote: Still salty didn't get healed. >> << ?I still jk'd scum -ducks- | ||
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On March 29 2018 05:15 MoosyDoosy wrote: meh @rsoultin, the thing is I'm far more likely as town to not listen to anyone and do my own thing. Like in the last game i interacted with you willingly and this game was the exact opposite. fair? it's less 'i'll never be able to read you as town this way' and more, it honestly helps a person's town game to be more open to other players lol >< imo like, you decided i was scum because i was 'reading you wrong' and then wouldn't discuss anything with me? i was either scum or so bad you didn't care. that attitude is kinda meh -shrugs- but it's not like we don't all have things we could work on and improve | ||
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